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KCBS Pork Rule

Rookie'48 said:
Okay, that's a good START!

The next (and most important) step is to send those thoughts to KCBS. All of the ranting and raving on a forum doesn't get your thoughts to the BoD, contacting the Board or the Rules Committee will.

And as far as how many members were present at the meeting in January: Those were the only ones that we heard from! Where were the concerns/thoughts from anyone else? If every one of the members who responded felt one way how is the Board supposed to know what the rest of the membership thought if they didn't make their views known???

That's why there was the ad in the BullSheet and the e-blast asking for input on rules for the 2014 season. If no one lets the Board know what they think how are the Board members supposed to figure that out?

The same goes for any and all things that come before the Board. Is there a disciplinary issue coming up? Let us know how you feel. Is there a problem with a certain Contest Rep? Let us know how you feel. Do you have some thoughts on a better way to do something? Let us know how you feel. Is there something in the KCBS Rules that you think could be better? Let us know how you feel.

Don't sit there and wonder how the Board is going to handle something - let us know how you feel. It's YOUR organization. We were elected to serve YOU - the members. Let us know how YOU feel! :thumb:
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Good point, and I do appreciate your willingness to serve on this board and act as professional as you do. I don't have time to read the bullsheet but can listen the BoD meeting while working. I can only imagine how frustrating it is at times.

I will send an email to the board bod@kcbs.us and rules committee rules@kcbs.us
 
I go to the banquet every year. The times for the meetings are not very doable.. Having it on a Friday requires teams to be there on a Thursday. At over $100 a night for a room, it does get a bit expensive. Let's face it, they have never been well attended. But neither has the banquet. But to run with something because a vocal minority shows up? Not sure if that is right either.

And this is by no means pointing a finfer.These times, have been going on for a long time. It is nothing new or nothing new for this BOD.
 
bover said:
I still don't see the harm in eliminating slices as a valid pork turn-in option. Get rid of that and the rules suddenly become very easy to understand and enforce.
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Man would I ever love to see this happen. I understand what the K in KCBS stands for, and that many for some reason that I have yet to figure out love sliced pork butt. However, KCBS obviously wants to be a national sanctioning body and to most(probably nearly all) of the nation BBQ pork means pulled or chopped.

BTW I actually HAVE had MM that was perfectly cooked and seasoned just right before. I wasn't all that impressed. Give me pulled 10 times out of 10.
 
Scottie said:
I go to the banquet every year. The times for the meetings are not very doable.. Having it on a Friday requires teams to be there on a Thursday. At over $100 a night for a room, it does get a bit expensive. Let's face it, they have never been well attended. But neither has the banquet. But to run with something because a vocal minority shows up? Not sure if that is right either.

And this is by no means pointing a finfer.These times, have been going on for a long time. It is nothing new or nothing new for this BOD.
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We did not just go by the people at the banquet. I've heard from many many cooks that they would like to see the parting/no returning to the cooker rule go away. We asked for input via the website and the bullsheet. I personally asked for input from facebook and a couple of forums. A large majority of the people I heard from wanted to do away with the parting rule.....Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed. But I've still heard from more people that want the new rule.

I would bet money that we did more due diligence on this rule then has ever been done for a KCBS rule in the past. We asked and received input from many many cooks. We will never get everybody to agree so we have to go with the majority.
 
YankeeBBQ said:
We did not just go by the people at the banquet. I've heard from many many cooks that they would like to see the parting/no returning to the cooker rule go away. We asked for input via the website and the bullsheet. I personally asked for input from facebook and a couple of forums. A large majority of the people I heard from wanted to do away with the parting rule.....Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed. But I've still heard from more people that want the new rule.

I would bet money that we did more due diligence on this rule then has ever been done for a KCBS rule in the past. We asked and received input from many many cooks. We will never get everybody to agree so we have to go with the majority.
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I could be totally off-base and mis-interpret listening to the last meeting, but to your point about the majority, it almost seemed to me, that even after all the 'votes' they had during the meeting, it seemed almost worthless, because there were still a few there that voted against it (whatever) and didn't like to lose. It seemed to me that the BOD wanted consensus and not let the majority rule.

Vote, and be done with it..
 
YankeeBBQ said:
Now I admit since we passed the new rule we have heard from people that don't want the rule changed.
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It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.
 
Q-Dat said:
BTW I actually HAVE had MM that was perfectly cooked and seasoned just right before. I wasn't all that impressed. Give me pulled 10 times out of 10.
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You may have had proper, but it does not sound like you had the good stuff yet.

Why tell me I can't turn it in because you don't like it? Dang communism. ;)
 
Keep up the good work, folks! :-D

Let's have some more thoughts on the parting rule, disciplinary actions, Reps, whatever :idea:. The more input y'all give the more info we have to make the decisions.

Remember that its YOUR organization, not the Board's! We are supposed to listen to the members, not dictate our wishes to them. I'm not saying that every question is going to be answered by a public poll or that a simple majority of vocal members is going to rule the day - what I am saying is that hearing from the members is NEVER a bad thing. When only 100 people out of 17,000 give their opinion and they all say the same thing where does our input come from? If we can hear from 2,000 out of 17,000 (yeah right) then we have a better understanding of where the membership wants to go on that subject.

Let's hear from some more of you KCBS members :-D ! I don't care which side of what issue you are on, I just think that you need to make your views known to the Board. At last count we had four members write in today, let's see how many more want to chime in and let their voices be heard. And to those who wrote in - THANX!!!
 
I have a question, why cant you get slices (mm) and pulled from the same butt? the only advantage to parting and putting back on the cooker to me would be to set the sauce a little, I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
 
Slamdunkpro said:
It's not that we don't want the rule changed - we don't want a flawed rule. The new rule in it's current incantation is flawed. It has a huge amount of wiggle room and, as written turns pork into a grilling contest (c'mon, we all know it does). Don't give me this crap about "trimming all the way down to the money muscle and just cooking that would be a DQ because it violates the "spirit of the rule" when butterflying and leaving the money muscle attached by a thread clearly violates the cooked whole spirit of the current rule but is never called or discussed. Doing this just creates a sea of grey interpretation making enforcement that much more difficult.

The "spirit" of the whole shoulder / Boston butt / roast rule is to show skill in cooking the traditional big meat. The new rule as written turns that on it's head. There has been more discussion about cheating / angle shooting in pork than any other meat since I've been around. Clearly pork is a a problem area and as such should a new rule be enacted it needs to be clearly defined so that there is no question as to what is permitted. It also shouldn't "dumb down" the skill required.
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You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
 
Smokin' Gnome BBQ said:
I wonder how many people are gonna change their method and over cook the pork in a boiling vat of sauce...
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porkrule.jpg
 
BMerrill said:
You are absolutely correct. Research the pork rule and it various changes. Each change looks like an attempt to refocus the cooks back to the spirit of the rule as cooks became more creative in trimming.

Pork shall be the whole shoulder or one of the two halves (Picnic or Butt), bone-in or deboned, having a minimum weight of 5 pounds after trimming. Deboned pork has to be tied in a manor to resemble the bone in product. Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited.

The above rule returns to the original intent.
Having a minimum weight after trimming would eliminate trimming a 5 pound butt to just the money muscle.
Deboned pork would have to be tied.
Prohibiting any “separation of the muscles before cooking is complete” would eliminate the creative trimming being done were the muscle groups are separated from each other but still attached by a sliver of the fat cap with the MM tied together and tethered to the blade portion. This also prohibits the cook in returning any portion of the pork to the cooker after separation.

Separation is a better word to use than “parting”. Separate means: not touching, not together; not in the same place.
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Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?

Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
 
YankeeBBQ said:
Even this rule could be picked apart. " Separation of muscles before cooking is complete is prohibited." Ok so in my opinion as a cook the cooking of my butt is complete. I separate the muscles and pull into chunks or shred it however I want. So now I want to set my sauce or just bring my pork up to temp before turning in. What in this rule prohibits that ? And why would you want to prohibit that ? I can do it with every other category. Am I a bad cook or just one that wants to turn in the best product I possibly can to the judges ? I don't want to grill it, microwave it or boil it in sauce, I just want to turn in nice hot pork to the judges. What's so wrong about that ?
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Fine. Here's your no wiggle room pork rule:
Legal pork shall consist of IMPS shoulder #403 and it's derivatives ( 403B, 403C, 404, 406, 406B, 406C, and 407) where the animal has been broken no further rostral than Cervical vertebra C3 and no further caudal than thoracic vertebra T1 (the first rostral rib). Pork must have a minimum raw post trim weight of 5 pounds. Pork must be cooked whole and intact. Butterflying, fileting,or separating (defined at cutting out a specific muscle and leaving a minimal attachment to other muscle groups) muscles prior to or during the cook is prohibited (Caution; while boneless butts / roasts are allowed, they are subject to the same parting and trimming standards as bone in products.) . Once the pork is removed from the cooker and any portion of the pork is cut, sliced, pulled or removed no part of the pork may be returned to the cooker until after the pork turn in window closes.

It preserves the original spirit of pork bbq, is clear and enforceable.

YankeeBBQ said:
Any bbq restaurant you go to holds their pulled pork in some type of warmer, they don't just pull it and leave it sitting on the counter. If you went to a restaurant and got cold pork I'm sure you wouldn't be very pleased. I've heard people say judges shouldn't mark down if it's cold. Why not ? It shouldn't be cold.
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I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
 
Slamdunkpro;2703259 I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging said:
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
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YankeeBBQ said:
Luke warm is a hell of a lot better than cold. Thus putting it in the box as hot as you can is a really good start. Many cooks carry their turn in containers in an insulated carrier. Several preheat that carrier. You think maybe there's a reason for that ??
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I agree - we try to have everything in the box as hot as possible and we use an insulated carrier. When we box our pork it's so hot we have to use insulated gloves to handle it - no reheating or additional cooker time required. It's a cooking skill issue, why are you trying to reduce the skill required?
 
Slamdunkpro said:
I'm sorry but I find this line of reasoning disingenuous at best. We all know that from turn in table to renumbering to tray sorting to judge's table to appearance judging, piece selection and finally sampling and judging it's going to be a lukewarm sample at best. This applies to all turn ins, not just pork. There just isn't enough thermal mass in each sample piece to retain the heat.
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You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
 
Jorge said:
You can call him a lot of things, but disingenuous isn't one of them.

You may not agree with him. But he's always been straightforward and honest with me, and anybody else I know that is familiar with him.
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I don't find Steve disingenuous but I find that particular oft repeated argument so. Specious might be a better word.
 
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