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For you judge types

ModelMaker

ModelMaker

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It's no surprise that any time a post comes (see earlier post) up concerning judging garnish you'll hear from me. I was on the CBJ Committee for several years and had noticed the varying thoughts on judging garnish (better picture frame etc.). Cook teams complained about how much weight was given to putting green boxes many under the impression it shouldn't matter at all.

I asked the committee, Reps, BOD and discovered that half thought it (garnish) should be scored and half thought it should not be scored. Hence the clarification of the rule to where it is today.
Garnish is optional,if used, once determined to be legal plays no further role in the appearance score.
The overwhelming reason from the long time participants that started this mess was this "this is a damn meat contest not a lettuce contest".
So the rule was cleaned up and made clear as a bell (I wish).

The point of all this is to maybe continue clarification of appearance scoring. How do you as a judge consider sauce shmeres on the inside edges of the turn in box?
Now we all understand to ignore any sauce on the inside lid because it could be caused by turn in table or TC persons.
Do you look for it? Do you score down for it? Should it matter?
Remember the mantra "this a damn meat contest".
Would you want it mentioned in the rules, do you think it should be scored down?

I'll go first, sauce smears anywhere inside the turn in container should be ignored as it is impossible to determine who caused it, and yes it should be mentioned in the rules.
Ed
 
Everything but the meat is ignored when I judge which is rarely in SoCal now a days.
Only time I may notice something is when the meat has a fingerprint in the sauce. Don't think anyone other than a team member could do that because the box is not opened until it reaches the judging table.
Yes, add the language.
 
Ugh..."It's a meat contest"

I believe Brad said it best - It's a BBQ contest, not a meat contest

That doesn't have a lot to do with this question, it just frustrates me.

That said, I think presentation should be all encompassing and the box is your plate. Present your plate how you want the consumer to see it, view, and eat it.
 
I'll go first, sauce smears anywhere inside the turn in container should be ignored as it is impossible to determine who caused it, and yes it should be mentioned in the rules
Click to expand...

I agree, a statement to that effect should be included in the rules. If it prevents one judge from scoring down when they should not, it's worth it.
 
midwest_kc said:
Ugh..."It's a meat contest"

I believe Brad said it best - It's a BBQ contest, not a meat contest

That doesn't have a lot to do with this question, it just frustrates me.

That said, I think presentation should be all encompassing and the box is your plate. Present your plate how you want the consumer to see it, view, and eat it.
Click to expand...
Exactly. KCBS never has been, never will be nor should it ever be a "meat contest".


It is a BBQ contest where appearance matters.
 
midwest_kc said:
Ugh..."It's a meat contest"

I believe Brad said it best - It's a BBQ contest, not a meat contest

That doesn't have a lot to do with this question, it just frustrates me.

That said, I think presentation should be all encompassing and the box is your plate. Present your plate how you want the consumer to see it, view, and eat it.
Click to expand...

But, the "plate" isn't supposed to be judged. The garnish isn't supposed to be judged (other than legality). So what is left to judge? The BBQ in the box (meat). "Presentation" is not a scoring category in KCBS. The scoring is for "Appearance", Taste, and Tenderness. Table captains even remind judges when they show a box for Appearance scoring that they are judging the appearance of the meat.
 
I know that's how the rules are, regarding appearance. I'm stating how I think they should be.

I also believe that, subconsciously, the VAST majority - if not all - of judges have the garnish and the way it frames the BBQ has an affect on the scoring of appearance. Much like a painting looks better in a nice frame than just taped to a wall. I think the proof of that is in how much effort the cooks put into making the greens look nice.

I am also not saying that makes any judge a "bad" judge. Just that if we acknowledge this human trait, cooks can prepare better, and it can provide guidance throughout the organization when developing rule changes, etc.
 
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And on the flip side, I've had EXCELLENT bbq, presented "bare" in its 9x9 claimshell box.

In fact, I look forward to such a box as it make my job easier... No garnish to judge the legality of...
 
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QN said:
But, the "plate" isn't supposed to be judged. The garnish isn't supposed to be judged (other than legality). So what is left to judge? The BBQ in the box (meat). "Presentation" is not a scoring category in KCBS. The scoring is for "Appearance", Taste, and Tenderness. Table captains even remind judges when they show a box for Appearance scoring that they are judging the appearance of the meat.
Click to expand...
Turn in a sloppy box and one that is neatly placed and organized on top of some garnish and let me know which one scores better.
 
Im an FBA member / cook team , FBA is zero garnish in the box allowed.

That said i find it harder especially with pork box , no way you would want just few lil piles of pork in the box to point where could see the bottom. So this requires us to cook ALOT more "perfect meat" cause whats in there gets judged.
same with ribs if tried just 6 with no garnish to hold them in place they could "move on you" easily.

It can however look great ! with no garnish
 
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Smokin D@wg@77 said:
Im an FBA member / cook team , FBA is zero garnish in the box allowed.

That said i find it harder especially with pork box , no way you would want just few lil piles of pork in the box to point where could see the bottom. So this requires us to cook ALOT more "perfect meat" cause whats in there gets judged.
same with ribs if tried just 6 with no garnish to hold them in place they could "move on you" easily.

It can however look great ! with no garnish
Click to expand...

WOW, very well done sir!!
Ed.
 
Any contest Have judged or TC lately has included the admonition not to knock down for sauce on the box as it can be introduced in handeling. I repeat that as tc when the boix is opened.. Pretty clear. There are 2 reasons for garnish as I understand it.. To absorb excess juice that may be expressed by hot entries particularly chicken, and if the cook desired,to provide a contrasting background to set off and frame their handywork and presentation so as to present it in the best light.. Thats it
 
garnish is a puzzling thing to me......when you look at it as being "optional" and only "judged on whether it is legal or not", in essence means that you have everything to lose and nothing to gain by using it.

and outside of holding the meat in place, which could be corrected via different options, I wonder why more folks dont just stop using it? me included.
 
rorkin said:
Any contest Have judged or TC lately has included the admonition not to knock down for sauce on the box as it can be introduced in handeling. I repeat that as tc when the boix is opened.. Pretty clear. There are 2 reasons for garnish as I understand it.. To absorb excess juice that may be expressed by hot entries particularly chicken, and if the cook desired,to provide a contrasting background to set off and frame their handywork and presentation so as to present it in the best light.. Thats it
Click to expand...

Garnish can also prevent the items from shifting during handling, can raise the items higher in the box, and can hide edge irregularities particularly when small pieces are added after the meat is arranged in the box.

TC duties can certainly include verbal communication with the Judges, and a reminder about sauce could be appropriate, especially if the Reps asked them to mention it. However, with all due respect to the way you control the table.... I feel these kinds of things should be discussed before any boxes are opened for appearance judging, otherwise you could be influencing a Judge. A TC can make private observations regarding a box, say for example noticing an arrangement with kale stems, but calling attention to something as the box is opened and presented is the responsibility of the Judges first. One exception to this is when passing the box to #1 or #6, I might whisper the word "heavy", but at this time appearance judging is over and the lid has been closed.
 
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