Yoder Wichita: My solution to its airflow/drafting issues

IXL, I agree horizon has some gorgeous machines

Slamkeys, glad you got the Wichita to hum like a top. Just hope Yoder ups its game
 
I literally think that once Yoder has actually fixed the design the very least they could do is send a newly built pit to Slamkeys as a gift to say thanks for all the free R&D he has done for them....

Seriously, a consultant fee is in order. Slamkeys has done more thinking on this topic than the Yoder people themselves. I've read some responses and it's like Yoder was trying harder to block the info than actually fixing the underlying problem
 
I am a Yoder Wichita customer, and have regularly experienced a range of issues related to how the pit drafts with symptoms including:

1. Smoke flowing backwards out of firebox intake damper instead of out of the stack

2. Inability to close the firebox door and maintain thin blue smoke out of the stack - within seconds of closing the door I typically get thick white smoke

3. Excessive fuel usage - The only option to achieve reasonable combustion and smoke quality has been to leave the firebox door open, and this approach wastes a lot of fuel via heat loss through the open firebox door.

4. The pit is in no way relaxing to use. Because of the insufficient draft the fire will regularly smoulder and even go out, which leaves soot on the food. I had regularly needed to come back every 15 mins or so to shift logs around to get them to burn, and occasionally even re-light a fire with kindling when the fire went out.

5. At times when the firebox door was left open to achieve combustion and the fire burned the logs down to coals, the large gaps in the expanded steel grate allows the coals to fall through the grate to the bottom of the firebox, and more than once I came back to a pit that was still reading a temp of 250F and upon opening the firebox found an empty charcoal grate with all the coals fallen through and then needed to build the fire again mid cook.


Similar to a few other forum members I decided to take on the challenge of trying to get the pit working the way I wanted it to, and am sharing my solution in the hope that it helps other Wichita customers be happier with their pit. Credit goes to the significant research done by Slamkeys - this research helped shape my thinking and approach here.


My goals/constraints for the modifications were:

1. The modifications need to be easily reversible in case I decide to sell the pit
2. No interest in cutting into the pit based on goal 1, but also in case the modification didn't work and I didn't want to be left in a worse position than I am now with an expensive pit.
3. I initially started off trying to get the pit working with the heat management plate installed but gave up. I found it limited the airflow too much, and to get the pit drafting to my liking would probably require cutting a new firebox air intake per Slamkeys approach previously posted here.
4. Conscious that one valid outcome is selling this pit and buying a different brand, so any solution needed to be cheap in terms of $ and also my time.
5. Didn't want to have to arrange for the pit to leave my house.


Modifications:

1. Completely block the upper firebox damper with a small flat piece of stainless steel sheet balanced between the door latch and the damper adjustment handle. This upper damper hole is far too high, and significantly contributes to the drafting issues.

2. Use the existing charcoal grate as a platform, for an additional surface to prevent coal prematurely falling through to the firebox floor. I initially used a sheet of perforated (not expanded) steel with something like quarter inch round holes evenly spaced throughout it, and after seeing how much of a positive difference it made I ended up having a charcoal basket fabricated that had a similar base to it. I use the basket for all fuels including log splits as well as charcoal. As well as the smaller holes on the base of the basket stopping coal falling through to prematurely lose the coal bed, the basket runs only half the width of the firebox so it helps me with the goal of running a small hot fire, as well as leaving room next to the basket to pre-heat splits (I have tried running cold splits as well and worked fine).

3. Replaced the chimney stack - A great feature of the Wichita is that the chimney stack is removable without any tools - it literally slides out. I did a bunch of research on drafting in smoker pits as well as wood burning stoves, and the thing that I saw again and again was people referring to the stack as the piece of the puzzle that generates the draft. Can't recall where but someone referred to the stack as the engine that pulls the air through the pit. I measured the stack as being approx 4" diameter, and 20" long, so had a replacement stack fabricated at 4" diameter and 40" long to 'increase the engine horsepower'.


The modifications listed above have left me significantly happier with the pit. I have used it in high wind blowing in various directions, and the smoke flows out the stack and doesn't reverse direction. The fuel burns steadily and at a slower rate. I easily achieve thin blue smoke and even shimmering vapor with the firebox door shut (and even remembering that the top intake damper is blocked), and can leave the pit for far longer without babysitting.

I previously had to start the pit with 2 charcoal baskets to achieve reasonable performance, and now I can start the pit without any charcoal at all.

My most recent fire lighting workflow in a car analogy was a standing start quarter mile sprint to see how hot I could quickly get it and maintain thin blue smoke:

No charcoal. Stacked a few small pieces of kindling with about 5 coke can width splits in the shape of a # above the kindling. Firebox door shut with top damper hole blocked. Lit the kindling and shut the top lid to the firebox. Within 25 minutes the pit went from ambient temperature to 350f on the temp gauge on the left of the firebox with a roaring fire and thin blue smoke out the stack.

Any chance you can post some pics?

I have been struggling in a similar fashion to you with my wichita and like you I don't want to mod it too much as I may just sell it on. I don't use it much as it's a pain in the balls to manage a fire over night.
 
I know the factory fire grate on my Wichita has never worked well for me, and I normally supplement it with a second grate to prevent the coals from falling through so easily.

I've been researching Shirley Fabrication for a while now, and I noticed Paul makes a nice big fire basket for his smokers, with an overlapped bottom section that has very small openings due to rotating the expanded metal 90 degrees.
sUzP4l4.jpg


I've never heard any complaints about the Shirley fire grates keeping the fire together. I mention this because your fire basket solution solves the Yoder fire grate issue in much the same way, by creating a denser platform for the coals to rest upon, which prevents them from falling through when you add more splits. In addition, since your fire basket is so narrow the wood gets piled up much like a chimney starter, and probably burns hotter because of the silo effect.
 
I can vouch for how well-designed my Shirley fire grate basket truly is. It sort of takes care of itself and I love it for that. I've had COS grates that were unable to perform. This thing is a beast and probably weighs a good 30 pounds. You won't be disappointed in the Shirley basket !!

BTW, if you got a Shirley (30x80 Straightback would do) shipped to Australia, you would be the baddest MoFo in the Southern Hemisphere!!!
 
IXL, I agree horizon has some gorgeous machines

Slamkeys, glad you got the Wichita to hum like a top. Just hope Yoder ups its game
I think the verdict is still out on whether my modifications improved the final product or not. I certainly have good air flow now, but I struggle to keep the meat from drying out, even with a water pan. I've been spritzing like crazy to try and keep the surface wet, but in the end if I don't wrap early the hot side always gets pretty crispy.

I've been thinking about doing one of those exhaust mods where you put an elbow inside the cooking chamber to lower it down to grate level (after removing the top shelf) to see if I can keep the heat in the cooking chamber longer with a slightly reduced escape velocity. I've seen videos where briskets are cooked completely without wrapping and still come out dripping wet, but I've never been able to accomplish anything like that on the Wichita. Of course, since the Yoder is supposed to be a bottom-up cooker I always put the fat cap down, so that may be why my top side dries out because it never has much fat on it. I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

I may just have to revert back to focusing on a larger coal bed and choked down intake to slow down the air flow enough to prevent drying out the food. That's my theory anyway. High velocity air flow + open flames = too much drying.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on. :decision:
 
I think the verdict is still out on whether my modifications improved the final product or not. I certainly have good air flow now, but I struggle to keep the meat from drying out, even with a water pan. I've been spritzing like crazy to try and keep the surface wet, but in the end if I don't wrap early the hot side always gets pretty crispy.

I've been thinking about doing one of those exhaust mods where you put an elbow inside the cooking chamber to lower it down to grate level (after removing the top shelf) to see if I can keep the heat in the cooking chamber longer with a slightly reduced escape velocity. I've seen videos where briskets are cooked completely without wrapping and still come out dripping wet, but I've never been able to accomplish anything like that on the Wichita. Of course, since the Yoder is supposed to be a bottom-up cooker I always put the fat cap down, so that may be why my top side dries out because it never has much fat on it. I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

I may just have to revert back to focusing on a larger coal bed and choked down intake to slow down the air flow enough to prevent drying out the food. That's my theory anyway. High velocity air flow + open flames = too much drying.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on. :decision:


Agreed... unless you're a "tinkerer" at heart there's no reason to keep on trying to make the Yoder work the way you want it to. TONS of great smokers out there which work much more efficiently and are priced very reasonably.

You brought up brisket and I used to trim my briskets pretty aggressively, but they were often a bit dry. So one day I took a full packer out of the cryo-vac, trimmed about 1/4 of a pound, and tossed it on my smoker with a salt/pepper rub and never touched it. I didn't open the door, didn't spritz, etc and just let it ride at about 250-275° until I got to about 198° internal and it was the best brisket I had ever done. That might be something to try and see if works out for you... I have completely gone away from wrapping or spritzing anything and I feel I have a better flavor and texture all around by doing so. Mind you, as you said, I couldn't leave things unwrapped in my Yoder, but with my Johnson Smoker the airflow is perfect and the smoke is thin / blue at all times, so it's not a problem.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do.
 
I normally use the cheapest select packers too, so there's that.

Then again, why do I keep experimenting with this thing? I should move on. :decision:

Raising the grade of meat you buy could save you a lot of money if it curtails your desire for a new offset. Regarding too much air flow, a 20" diameter offset will inherently produce higher airflow speeds than a 24", assuming all other things are equal.
 
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Had a few requests for photos so here is the stack, basket and the way I am blocking the door vent
 

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Did another cook and gave it some ‘harsh’ conditions :

1. Firebox door closed the whole cook
2. No charcoal at all even to start the fire
3. Regular (not kiln dried!!!!) splits
4. No preheating of splits- straight from the wood pile to the firebox


Thin blue smoke all the way even after adding each split, easy burning fire, no smoke at all coming backwards out of the firebox damper, delicious result
 
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Overall my opinion on the heat diffuser plate is that the firebox is positioned too high in relation to the cook chamber for the current design of heat management plate to allow a proper draft through the pit. I have given up on the hmp and use my pit without it.
 
Raising the grade of meat you buy could save you a lot of money if it curtails your desire for a new offset. Regarding too much air flow, a 20" diameter offset will inherently produce higher airflow speeds than a 24", assuming all other things are equal.
I've cooked choice/prime packers when I was first starting out and the primes were extremely fatty in the end product, much to my wife's disliking. I wasn't very good at getting all the fat rendered down back then either, so maybe I should try again to see if I have any better luck.

One of my theories is that BBQ started out as a way to get rid of the "scrap meat" that nobody really wanted to pay for, like brisket, so I should be able to make good BBQ without resorting to expensive or specialty cuts of meat like Wagyu beef, which I heard Myron Mixon claiming to use exclusively for competitions.

I know Aaron Franklin makes a point of using only free-range prime briskets, and he has been very successful with that strategy, but his cookers are also huge compared to what I'm using. I'd have to think those 1000 gallon smokers provide a much more suitable environment for slow, stable cooking than a small backyard smoker where the meat is literally a foot or two from the fire. This is one reason I've been considering a reverse-flow smoker like the Shirley Fabrication units, because they have a long enough path of flow to stabilize the heat and provide a more even cooking environment. That's the theory anyway.

I did hear Joe Phillips say the Cheyenne would flow faster than the Wichita, and the Wichita would flow faster than the Kingman, all due to the diameter of the pipe. The 1000 gallon propane tanks are 41" in diameter, so I'm guessing they flow very slowly by comparison. That's one reason I'm very curious to see how well Aaron's new backyard smokers will work when they are released. Could it be that size matters when it comes to slow smoking (due to velocity)? Can choking down the smoke stack on a smaller smoker reduce velocity enough, and keep the fire clean enough, to imitate cooking on a monster cooker with inherently lower velocity?
 
Ever watch any of franklins videos? Ones i have seen he's cookin on a small backyard offset with the firebox door open for good flow and clean smoke. Prolly why the pits he is developing don't have an air inlet control other than the door.
Trying to help people not choke down the fire
Larry
 
The Amazon river, rather large by any standard, flows much more water and at a higher velocity, than say, the Red river. It can be the same with smokers: the 1000 gal. behemoth can match the velocity of the backyard-sized one if the fire is sufficiently large and the vent openings are complementary to the fire size. It is not, however, a linear scale of performance; at some point, the big-boy will need a *much* larger fire if expected to match flow rates.

The smaller smokers can also be slowed, if they are flowing too fast, by decreasing the size of the what-still-needs-to-be-a-clean-burning fire. A guy might have to shag wood more often, and in smaller sizes, but it can certainly be done.

I completely agree concerning the history of which meats were barbecued: cheap and valueless ones. And the early masters of the craft didn't concern themselves with all the doodads available today, either. Big Bob Gibson started cooking meat over a shallow hole in the ground on makeshift racks. He knew neither the temperature of the fire or of the meat, and look where it got him. I still want to try one of those Wagyu briskets sometime, though. :)
 
The smaller smokers can also be slowed, if they are flowing too fast, by decreasing the size of the what-still-needs-to-be-a-clean-burning fire. A guy might have to shag wood more often, and in smaller sizes, but it can certainly be done.
Agreed.... Using fire size to control temps and flow is the secret to my success. However, don't discount reducing airflow via the exhaust damper. We spend an awful lot of time educating folks to leave the exhaust "wide-open" but it's all about balance. A large or tall exhaust can create more flow and to slow it down you reduce the outlet size. Naturally, this takes some experience and a careful eye to ensure the fire remains burning clean but it's an option for those seeking another approach.

Disclaimer: Choking the exhaust should not be used to reduce pit temperatures - ever. :twitch:
 
Ever watch any of franklins videos? Ones i have seen he's cookin on a small backyard offset with the firebox door open for good flow and clean smoke. Prolly why the pits he is developing don't have an air inlet control other than the door.
Trying to help people not choke down the fire
Larry
Yes, I've read his book and watched his entire TV series too. One thing I noticed is his backyard smoker has the smoke stack at grate level, so it probably has flow characteristics similar to his restaurant cookers.

However, with the backyard smoker Aaron always places his meat as far away from the firebox as possible to get it away from the fire. That has to be the biggest drawback of a traditional small cooker - the fact that a good portion of the grate near the firebox is basically unusable for slow cooking because the heat is simply too intense on that end. That's the main reason I'm pondering a reverse-flow from Shirley Fabrication.
 
That's the main reason I'm pondering a reverse-flow from Shirley Fabrication.

With your attention to detail, you could make good BBQ off of just about anything...as you've proven. We also tend to be our own worst critics when it comes to the food we cook. How many times have you eaten some meat you cooked and thought you could have done a little better job but everyone else at the table is stuffing their faces like it's some kind of life saving antidote? In regards to reverse flow smokers, who the heck knows. LSG lists a bunch of problems with them in the Q&A section on their website. Is that because they don't build them or do they not build them because they believe in these reasons? I don't know. I say all of these designs have their own strengths and weaknesses.
 
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