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-   -   Possible KCBS rules changes (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77421)

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 09:56 AM

Possible KCBS rules changes
 
I see Chatham Bill & others talking about potential rules changes, so I
thought I'd start a few...

Bill is right, the judging lacks some to be desired (or a lot to be desired).

1.
What about changing the scoring system from a 1-9 based to a 7-10
based like MBN (old MIM)? This would reduce/eliminate the variance
problem and reduce the "old judges tough scoring" problem. Define what
a 7 means, what an 8 means, 9 and then 10 likewise (ala. MBN).

2.
Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...


Just a thought.

RubMeTender 02-01-2010 10:00 AM

I can't help but think getting rid of the garnish would be nice.
If it's really all about the meat, then it's all about the meat.
It might look pretty, but how often do you normally eat BBQ off of a putting green?

Merl 02-01-2010 10:07 AM

Lake Dog,
If you look back, KCBS had a 7, 8, 9 judging system, when the instruction was to begin at 9 and judge down. The cooks absolutely hated and the board listened. We removed the point to begin and asked judges to judge based upon the quality of what was presented to them. This actually appear (in my opinion) to be a superior system. I did not have a vote, as this was done before I was on the Board, but I support the action as a good step. It resolved may issues where were objectionable to cooks and judges alike.

I believe that KCBS is not likely to go back unless some overwhelming reason was brought forward. The 987 did not work well in KCBS in the past. But things and times do change. I think the best response would be continued education for our CBJ's.

As to garnish, that is a yearly question. This will be discussed by the BOD Friday at the BOD meeting. I will tell you this. KCBS is unique, and we there is an attitude from membership to celebrate what makes KCBS unique.

KCBS only changes rules annually. The Rules meeting was held in January and will be presented to the Board in February for 2010.

Please keep track of ideas and present them at the next rules meeting, which may be in KC at the 25th Annual Banquet.
Yours in Que. (speaking only for myself)
Merl

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 10:28 AM

Thanks Merl, didnt know about it previously being 7-9.... Agreed, continued
education for CBJ's will definitely help/reduce the problems.

I must admit, the garnish allowed confuses me a little. Mind you, I've gotten all 8's
and 9's in presentation, so this isn't a complaint. It's an honest question of "why
is it allowed". I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice
dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what
a beautiful color contrast. However, as much as we'd like to ignore it and say "it
doesn't come in to play", there is no way that it can't, even if ever-so-slightly....

Respectfully,


The Dawg

Ford 02-01-2010 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs (Post 1164454)
I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what a beautiful color contrast.

The Dawg

If I read this right you just said the meat looks better. So a judge is still just judging the meat and not how the parsley looks.

Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation. Just read an article about a lady here in Grand Rapids MI who works with the local businesses to improve appearance of their product for photo sessions. Sounded a lot like making a good box. I thoight about hiring her for making some presentations of my food for my new website and brochures. I think the major grocery guys and top end restaurants have a bigger budget than I do.

Jorge 02-01-2010 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs (Post 1164454)
Thanks Merl, didnt know about it previously being 7-9.... Agreed, continued
education for CBJ's will definitely help/reduce the problems.

I must admit, the garnish allowed confuses me a little. Mind you, I've gotten all 8's
and 9's in presentation, so this isn't a complaint. It's an honest question of "why
is it allowed". I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice
dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what
a beautiful color contrast. However, as much as we'd like to ignore it and say "it
doesn't come in to play", there is no way that it can't, even if ever-so-slightly....

Respectfully,


The Dawg

I've got no problem with garnish, I've got no problem doing without it either. IBCA garnish is a sheet of foil, that works. I like a box of parsley too, especially if there is a slight imperfection that could benefit from some camouflage.

I just don't see garnish being a big issue in the grand scheme of things right now.

Scottie 02-01-2010 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorge (Post 1164493)
I've got no problem with garnish, I've got no problem doing without it either. IBCA garnish is a sheet of foil, that works. I like a box of parsley too, especially if there is a slight imperfection that could benefit from some camouflage.

I just don't see garnish being a big issue in the grand scheme of things right now.



You sure your from Texas? I am not sure if I have ever heard a Texan say they like garnish..... :shock:

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford (Post 1164471)
If I read this right you just said the meat looks better. So a judge is still just judging the meat and not how the parsley looks.

Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation. Just read an article about a lady here in Grand Rapids MI who works with the local businesses to improve appearance of their product for photo sessions. Sounded a lot like making a good box. I thoight about hiring her for making some presentations of my food for my new website and brochures. I think the major grocery guys and top end restaurants have a bigger budget than I do.

Ford, respectfully, if it looks better, then the garnish was taken into
account.

Jorge 02-01-2010 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottie (Post 1164509)
You sure your from Texas? I am not sure if I have ever heard a Texan say they like garnish..... :shock:

hehe, I take some heat for it.

I think garnish is one of the things that makes KCBS unique, and the option still gives a cook the choice. In a lot of cases (but certainly not all)those that object to the use of garnish just don't want to mess with it, no matter what their stated objection is.

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorge (Post 1164524)
hehe, I take some heat for it.

I think garnish is one of the things that makes KCBS unique, and the option still gives a cook the choice. In a lot of cases (but certainly not all)those that object to the use of garnish just don't want to mess with it, no matter what their stated objection is.

Making KCBS unique, definitely. It does. And, yes, the cook could opt
out and present it sans garnish. I'm guessing that there's probably not
been a 1st place in any category in the last 12 months where someone
had it sans garnish. Just a guess, but I'll bet 'ya a $1 on that one.

As to those that object, for me, it's truly about the Q. I became accustomed
to judging/seeing BBQ sans garnish (MIM/MBN). It struck me right off as both different
and NICE, but nice in the "the green compliments the Q therefore it looks
better" way, which therefore takes garnish into account. Mind you,
I've done color for a living. Mine will never go in with a light green
background, never. And, as a result, I've always gotten 8's and 9's
in presentation. Some may, yes. For me, it's about judging Q against
Q, nothing more, nothing less. It actually takes one of the things that
a judge can screw up out of their hands. Lets not even begin to discuss
whether having something un-cooked presents a health hazard to the
judges...

The guys who complain about judging should jump all over this.

Scottie 02-01-2010 11:40 AM

If you like the no nonesense from MBA, then why do they do the dog and pony show at teams sites? Why do they fluff up their smokers for presentation of the hog, ribs or shoulder with all of that garnish inthe smoer. I guarantee you that to buy grrens, fruits, et al for a MBN contests, costs way more than the garnsih does for KCBS.

Let's face it, garnsih separates the KCBS from other sanctioning bodies that came after the formation of KCBS. So for those that want the rules to change like the others. Then go and join the other sanctioning bodies. I for one like the KCBS garnish.

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 11:48 AM

Guys, from what I've seen in earlier discussions/debates/arguments regarding garnish,
the best argument for it is the "making KCBS unique". It absolutely does that. There's
nothing wrong with that argument, either.

However, to somehow think that it's even possible for a human being to not take it
into account is like asking a guy to see a picture of a nude woman and not take her
... breasts ... into account. Can't happen. The green compliments the natural
colors of BBQ and is a direct contrast to the white box. It therefore is a frame, and
there is no way for the eye of a human not to take it into account.

Perhaps if it's decided that it is to stay, consider rewording the rule so that it IS
taken into account. At least we're being fair and honest.

The arguments against it stack up pretty high. I'll just list a few:

1. judging something else other than Q
2. gives the judges something to mess up on (the way its currently worded)
3. introduces the remote possibility (I admit, it's remote) of e coli or other BAD things

lesser arguments

4. gives new cooks/teams something else to fubar, refer to BBQ PitMasters for vivid
5. gives experienced cooks/teams something else to purchase (more $$$), and in
my case more to literally throw away.

Personally, and very respectfully to those who want/like the garnish, I'd like to see
BBQ judged against BBQ and absolutely no way anything else can be taken into
account.

Lake Dogs 02-01-2010 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottie (Post 1164559)
If you like the no nonesense from MBA, then why do they do the dog and pony show at teams sites? Why do they fluff up their smokers for presentation of the hog, ribs or shoulder with all of that garnish inthe smoer. I guarantee you that to buy grrens, fruits, et al for a MBN contests, costs way more than the garnsih does for KCBS.

Let's face it, garnsih separates the KCBS from other sanctioning bodies that came after the formation of KCBS. So for those that want the rules to change like the others. Then go and join the other sanctioning bodies. I for one like the KCBS garnish.

It absolutely does (first paragraph). That's a huge reason that I only
compete in 1 MBN contest. The on-site is unnecessary and stupid. We're
not discussing that, are we? I thought the topic up top was KCBS?!...

Scottie 02-01-2010 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lake Dogs (Post 1164566)
Personally, and very respectfully to those who want/like the garnish, I'd like to see
BBQ judged against BBQ and absolutely no way anything else can be taken into
account.


then how can you cook and/or judge a MBA event?

Scottie 02-01-2010 11:54 AM

The topic is about KCBS. But it seems like you are talking out both sides of your mouth right now? I am confused...

don't get me wrong, each sanctioing body has a place. But for those to come along and say that KCBS needs to change because of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.


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