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BBQchef33 11-09-2005 10:18 AM

Judging: Among The Brethren.
 
Did my first KCBS judging event this weekend at Key largo.

2 things happened.....

I got to see first hand what goes on under the tent. As a competitor/cook I have a slightly better understanding of what to do and not to do. I think anyone who competes NEEDS to judge at least 5-6 times. It’s very enlightening to be on the other side of the spectrum. Our table only got a couple of entries worth writing home about. Allot of mediocre stuff and one of the absolute worse briskets I have ever seen or tasted. But the other stuff... top of the line, a couple ribs that got 99 (taste/texture)at our table from several judges. It seems that a majority can produce good BBQ, but few produce outstanding BBQ.

The second thing, and more important.. I was "A brethren" judging an event where 2 teams were flying our colors. This was an enlightening perspective.

When I left, I flew 1500 miles to hang out with Southern Brethren, to meet Jimmy for Smoking Cracker, and say Hi to DrBBQ and to give the old rah-rah for our teams. I wear the brethren hat.. Bring tee shirts to give to everyone, and of course, the signature prime rib to feed the guys.. Then Saturday, from 10-2, I put on my judges pin and go sit under the double blind judging guidelines. There is no way possible that I would know what turnins belongs to who, I have my integrity, and I will judge everyone on a level playing field and on their individual merit. Cool, I can do that.

When judging is over, I'll have a beer with the guys, and sit with them during the awards.. Take pictures when they walk, or offer shoulder if they don’t. Cool, I can do that too.

And I KNOW how pooped they will be when they day is done.. I will help knock down and put away there stuff and get them out of there right? Cool.. I will definitely do that. All of us would..

Guess what .

WRONG! Bad MOVE.. Bad assumptions. From the second I stepped on the airplane.

JUDGING:

judge
v. judged, judg·ing, judg·es
v. tr.


To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration, To act as one appointed to decide the winners of: , To determine or declare after consideration or deliberation. Informal. To have as an opinion or assumption; suppose: v. intr. To form an opinion or evaluation. To act or decide as a judge.
  • One who judges, especially: One who makes estimates as to worth, quality, or fitness: One appointed to decide the winners of a contest or competition.
Before I went down there, I bounced off of Dave the thought of me hanging out Friday night with them. Is it ok for a judge to do that? The word was, before the event, we can do what we want on our own time. So, I went down a couple days earlier to visit mom in Boca Raton who of course insisted I bring her back some BBQ. Before leaving for Key Largo, I confirmed with Dave that Friday night, the pit would be available for some recreational cooking. Of course!! .. So I got us the 18lb Prime rib, fatties, peppers, biscuits, fresh bread, cheese and produce to make bruscietta(the cheese bread version). and some chicken and ribs to make for mom to bring home… even a funky pork roast to experiment on along with all necessary supplies to make everything. Sounds good. Grabbed a bottle of watermelon vodka for the “non cooks” to enjoy. I figured I’m gonna get these guys fed in brethren style before they hit the sack for the next day. As long as they are not cooking, prepping and they say the pit is free, no problem. My biggest concern was getting in their way, which was not happening. We are The Brethren, all friends, we hang together, eat, cook, and drink together. Early on, we made the fatties, cheese bread, prime rib, fed us and several other teams when we were all fed we made some ribs and thighs. All was good, except when I drove over the water pipes that fed our entire side of the road(another story).

This all sounds good right??

But: We are competitors, AND judges.

Ray(DrBBQ) comes over and enlightens us to what can be perceived by others. He was not challenging us himself.. He was warning us…. He knew the entire story, he ate with us, saw the food I brought, knew I was going to make some stuff for mom, blah blah blah…. He knows us.. BUT… he pointed out what others who don’t know us sees… it was a perspective that was not even considered.

Not to go into long winded gory details.. here is what was visible.

Me hangin with Smokin Cracker and Southern Brethren. 2 Teams that fly The Pig. I’m drinking, cooking laughing.. all around hanging with the brothers. Walking around meeting other teams…The same stuff I do at all the competitions I attend..but as a competitor.. not a Judge..

A judge, hanging out with the brethren Teams, all day(and also cooking) the day before turn-in…. may not look good… I am not wearing a tee shirt that says I am a judge, but I am wearing our colors. This may seem like a long shot, but keep reading.

This is something we need to look at… we need to think about it and implement a protocol that will not breed the perception of impropriety. More and more of us are becoming judges. In this little world we have here, its part of the vision I have for the entity known as “The BBQ Brethren”. We will range from new capable teams, to seasoned veterans, to Grand Champions, and mixed in there, judges, table captains, and master judges This says that we will be judging our brothers. Blindly, fairly and professionally. But we must be cognizant of what other competitors see. It’s early, there are only a dozen or 2 active judges among us. Most of which may just stop by and say hello, have a beer or 2, this is not an issue.. It is for those of us who are flying the colors and deeply entrenched in “The Brethren”, we must become aware.

I am not trying to set a protocol at this stage of the game, but open up the dialogue. How do we do this? How do we attend competitions as judges and maintain the “spirit of the brethren”…. camaraderie, friendships, etc. We WANT to visit with our brothers, and I mean beyond hello and a handshake. It would suck not to. When I am competing, and a stranger comes to me and says he is “A Brethren”, he is no longer a stranger, and he is welcome into my tent. Open the cooler and pull up a chair… It’s who we are…

But as a judge arriving under a tent, we must be aware that we cannot risk or influence the teams chances one bit, and stuff that we would do without that blue shirt or judges pin may have to be held off. Not because of them, but because of those around them. This is not a question of what is allowed, it is a question of what is perceived.. I have seen judges sitting under tents for hours on end, and have never given it a second thought, we are protected by the double blind judging. WELL.. IMO, that don't matter. My experience dealing with this forum tells me that someone will always find something to complain about. :mrgreen: We need input from the pros, hopefully, Ray, Rod, Jim, etc..to help us out here. For Ray to point this out, he knows better than most of us.. there is something to it. Granted I was cooking... That may be the tiebreaker and may be the answer to this specific instance.. what about the image overall.

Let the debate begin.

Arlin_MacRae 11-09-2005 10:53 AM

No debate from this non-competitor, non-judge, but let me say this about that:
"Perception is TRUTH". In other words, what people see, and the conclusions they correctly or incorrectly draw - are THE WAY IT IS.

Seeing you at a judge's table and thinking, "Haven't I seen that guy before...?" and then remembering just exactly where they saw you? Bad ju-ju.

People will bitch and complain and scream and throw tantrums - especially if they even get a whiff of something that seems unfair to them. It's just human nature.

Defuse the situation before it starts: either meet with buds in private or, the more preferred method - don't hang with them till after the walkers have walked.

My two pennies.

Arlin

Smoker 11-09-2005 11:12 AM

Phil,

I can understand what you said and what other people may have "percieved" but it is a blind judging contest. When you sit down at the judges table you can't know whose food you are tasting.

If i just want to cook or taste BBQ I can do that at home. I think most of us go to the competitions to either cook or judge for one reason...... to have a great time and meet like minded people. Whether I am cooking or judging I want to ba able walk around and say hello to old frinds and make new friends. I would think that 99.99% of people will put their judges cap on when they walk into the judges tent and leave their families and friends behind. If a very small percentage of people think that someone who is judging should park their car and sit in the judges tent then I think they should reevaluate why they compete. It can't be for the money. If I am judging an event and you tell me I can't interact then I really don't want to drive somewhere to eat BBQ that I could have had at home.

You will never be able to please 100% of the people. When we competed this year I never even looked in the judges tent to see who was judging.

I can understand the perception of impropriety but if people start complaining about it, I would rather stay at home.

Steve

chad 11-09-2005 11:40 AM

I agree and I was a player in this whole scenerio.

Perception is important, absolutely, but common sense must come into play, too. Acussing a team or judge of impropriety MUST be backed up with fact, in my opinion. There's too much $$ and prestige riding on these contests to have sour-grapes and inuendo/rumors get the upper hand.

I fully understand what Ray pointed out and fully understand that "we" need to be very circumspect and professional as cook teams and as judges. I didn't handle the initial discussion very well - but Ray and I discussed it Saturday morning and I ensured him that I understand, fully, his point. I'd have to be an absolute moron to not realize that he did us a great favor in making us take a hard look at what could have been a contentious situation.

I don't agree that "Perception is TRUTH" though I fully appreciate that truism from an ethics standpoint. TRUTH is TRUTH and PERCEPTION colors that TRUTH...it's been a long time since my college ethics class! As most of you can imagine I don't have a PC bone in my body and if anyone wants to play head games with ethics - well, just say I don't play well with others when accussed falsely of unfair or unethical actions.

I don't believe that Brethren judges should avoid the teams - but do agree that we/they should NOT hang out all evening and prep any food...even if it is personal. That was a mis-fire on my part but I really thought we'd have been finished with everything a long time before hand. My bad!

Stop by, have a brew, eat some food, and then roll on down the midway. Perhaps that's the answer. Definately avoid hanging out Saturday (or Sunday at some events) morning - I usually do a stroll through and say good morning to everyone and maybe snag a cup of coffee. But then, I don't arrive on Friday night either.

It is a conundrum and one we should address - and I'm thinking we're seeing that the consensus is/will be that Brethren judges do not hang with the Brethren teams for any length of time prior to the event and it would probably behoove us to not wear our hats and tee's in a judging environment. I've always worn my hat at FBA events I've judged and it's never been an issue - I will be rethinking that due to the potential problems discussed here.

This is new ground for us and reflects the growth of this group and the potential impact it can have since we have logos and a lot of friendships involved. This particular issue at Key Largo was a fluke but in the midwest or now the northeast with a concentrated season and multiple Brethren teams and a pool of Brethren judges it could become an issue - and all it takes is one formal complaint or several rumors for it to get completely out of hand. Thankfully Ray brought it to our attention in a very professional way and as a "friend". Thanks Ray.

As we hash out protocol I think we'll see that common sense will prevail.

BBQchef33 11-09-2005 11:44 AM

i tend to agree with steve... (great minds think a like.). If i go to MOFO land, i would be the first one at the margarita machine and pinchin spicewines butt.... i WANT to hang out with the brothers.. and i think most would expect that.. i sure do. Personally, I'd be ticked/offended at any of us who come to judge an event I am competing in and did NOT pull up a chair.

other side of the coin...

The danger is in what the OTHER guy sees. Is it worth the risk of DQ'ing someone if he takes a GC and someone complains. ???

In the case of Key largo, I told everyone I will forgo judging if they thought this would become an issue. I would prefer to sit under the tent or be pitbitch to my Brethren than to judge and effect their chances.

This could be a simple answer.... "its up to the team." If they feel there is an issue, it can be their call. My tent.. its open..until Saturday morning. then chances are you dont want to me around me anyway. GRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....

Kevin 11-09-2005 12:13 PM

The fact that this is even being discussed shows a great deal of integrity.

The_Kapn 11-09-2005 12:55 PM

Fantastic post Phil--Thanks.

My nickle on this.

This has come up before on a smaller scale with me while Judging. Largo just drove the dangers home for me.

I just need to use my head and keep the whole competetive environment in mind, better than I have in the past.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with visiting with friends at an event--that is one of the big draws to competeting.
When you think about the "old timers" on the circuit, the teams all know each other, the judges, and the Reps and they do visit--- each and every weekend. Have a cold one, share a snack, etc. No big deal. Very natural.
But, it is a half hour "here", an hour and a half "there" and they do not wear unique attire or participate directly in chores around the cook site. Nothing wrong with that, part of the culture.

But, we are growing in numbers weekly and we have our wonderful Flaming Pig. A very unique and identifiable logo. We have hats, aprons, banners, T-Shirts and all the "trappings". We are proud of who we are, rightfully so! We encourage our members, competetors and non-competetors alike, to get certified and then actually judge.

It is easy to see why a "non-brethren team" would wonder about the status of the players--"Are they part of the team, or Judges".
Now, if the Brethren team is in the middle of the pack at awards--"who cares?" But, it the Brethren team wins big.......??????? Valid questions and concerns can be raised.
That perception is what I intend to avoid.
I do not intent to "taint" the performance of any team or the event.

Here are my personal guidlines (just for me) in the future.

If I judge an event with no "Brethren" banners flying, I will wear my hat with pride all weekend.
If I judge an event with teams flying the colors, my hat will stay in the van. I am still a Brother without my hat and want to protect the integrity of the teams competing. Small price to pay for the overall good of the sport.
At all events, I will "share the joy" of my companionship http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...es/redface.gif with all the teams I know and keep it to a reasonable level. I will share a libation, sample the wonderful creations they cook on Friday night, and have a great time.
I will avoid any actions (helping out) that could be perceived as blending me with the team.

Basically, I will support the teams the best I can while I also support the entire concept of competetive BBQ.
And, I will have fun doing it http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif

Just my thoughts--not trying to tell anyone else what to do,
Just me.

TIM

Ron_L 11-09-2005 01:02 PM

Good point, Kevin...

Great post, Phil, and a great topic. Here's my spin as a novice competitor and non-judge... If I attended a competition as a judge, and spent time with a friend's team, and someone called me out about it, I would be ticked, but its something that I would have to deal with. If I did the same thing, and someone called out my friend, I would feel terrible since I had caused trouble for my friend.

Now here's where it gets fuzzy... What is considered to be excessive. If I come by and have a couple of beers and hang out for a while, even though it is with a friend, is that really any different that any judge who walks the competition on a Friday night, talking to the competitors and grabbing some free beer? Probably not. But, if someone notices that I am spending all of my time with one or two teams, that could be contrued as favoritism. However, if I hang out with my friends, and then "spread the love" and hang out with other teams, even if its for a few minutes, it less likely that someone will object.

I think...

Smoker 11-09-2005 01:37 PM

"If I come by and have a couple of beers ".... "and hang out with other teams, even if its for a few minutes, it less likely that someone will object.
"

Ron,

What you are saying is it is better to get beer from all the competitors. Simply brilliant.

Jeff_in_KC 11-09-2005 01:40 PM

Great topic, Phil. And one that's crossed MY mind before when reading posts here. Hermann, MO and now Key Largo both stand out as examples. I plan to get certified in the off season and I've wondered recently if being a CBJ at an event would exclude me from visiting with Brethren friends. It's funny that it's officially come up now.


My take on it is very similar to Tim's. Being in the marketing field, I am well aware of and agree with the fact that perception is truth. It is truth in the minds of the perceivers. That's really all that matters. It doesn't matter if we're totally on the up and up and fair about our judging... if someone complains or makes accusatory remarks, the damage is done. Therefore, perception does become truth.

After getting everyone's input, I think that we need to put forth some official statement or Brethren policy that we can all agree upon to keep such issues from ever arising (hopefully). I like Tim's personal stance and how he plans to operate. It makes a lot of sense to me and once I'm certified, I plan to implement a similar approach. In our marketing at work, we strive to under promise and over deliver... basically to go beyond what we even claim we will. It's all about holding ourselves to a higher standard and I think the same thing could and should apply in this situation.

Looking forward to hearing more comments on this subect! As Kevin says, the fact that we're even discussing it shows integrity! Lots of it.

wsm 11-09-2005 01:54 PM

Seems like a lot of cooks are also CBJs, but if they are not judging at the competition then their being a judge is irrelvant.

If they ARE judging, staying too long at one site is not a good idea (as most others have said). As has also been said, wearing something (a hat) that links you to a single team can cause misconceptions that we don't need.

scottyd 11-09-2005 02:02 PM

the double blind covers your tail on this. We are all friends at these contests. If we do not have our friends and new friends, What do we have then. I might be way off base here but I do the competitions to make new friends and have fun and yes I do take my BBQing serious. But I like to hang with my friends also.

Smoker 11-09-2005 02:10 PM

Perhaps we should get an OFFICIAL ruling from KCBS on...not what is politically correct( I do the opposite) but what the KCBS says are the official can and cannot do at a comp. If they don't have an official "can and cannot do at a comp" then they now need one.

If I'm judging and I buy a teeshirt from a team can I wear it in the judges tent?

Can I wear any teams logo in the judges tent?

Can a team be disqualified if they win GC and I drank with them before I judged?

Can I cook with a team before meat inspection?

Otherwise, I'm sorry if someone perceives something that isn't true. They are actually saying that I have no integrity, when they don't even know me. I will give other competitors the benefit of the doubt, I expect the same from them.

Just my opinion

The_Kapn 11-09-2005 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff_in_kc
After getting everyone's input, I think that we need to put forth some official statement or Brethren policy that we can all agree upon to keep such issues from ever arising (hopefully).



Jeff,
Not disagreeing with your fine post at all, but that concept makes me uncomfortable.

I really do not support any sort of policy statement in this matter.
Each event is different, each team is different, and each judge is different.
Even the "stakes" might come into play. A local rib-fest that is mostly for fun may (just may) tolerate much more interaction than a hotly contested "State Championship". Don't know for sure, but a lot of variables out there.

My hope is only that we, as a group, stay aware of the situation and the possible perils and act accordingly. And "accordingly" is up to the individuals involved.
Exactly like trying to define "excessive". You just have to be there to "feel" what "excessive" is, IMHO.

And I surely do not want to tell someone else exactly what to do, nor do I want someone else micromaging my actions.
This simply does not rise to that level

Great discussion guys.

TIM

BrooklynQ 11-09-2005 02:32 PM

Tim's got the right approach, IMNTBHO.

If you read that other BBQ forum, you'll see a lot of posts where cooks are pissed because they didn't like the scores. To them the judges are suspect already.

This will only be an issue with the loosing teams, but imagine what would happen if a case could be made that BrooklynQ was hanging with, tasting the food, directing and coaching the Big Creek BBQ team (picked only because it's the post above) and Big Creek took GC when BQ was judging!!! They would scream that BQ should be banned as a judge and the team disqualified! And rightly so.

What's the rules on family members as judges? I've been trying to convince my wife to judge, only to give her something to do at the contests while I'm playing with my meat. But I've met wives, girlfriends and in-laws of the cooks in the judge's tents.

In my limited judging experience there were three types of judges...

1. The judges. That's all they do. They don't cook. They don't compete. They're only there for the food. They come in for the judges meeting and leave as soon as the judging is over. These guys don't have any real ties to the cooks and don't want them.

2. The cooks. These guys are judges because they want to get a handle on the competetion. They're there to help hone their craft and improve their performance at the pit. Their team isn't in the contest that day, but they're still competiting by judging and comparing.

3. The pit crews or retirees. These are the guys who are the soliders in the pits who are taking that day off and judging instead of pit bitching or washing dishes that weekend. The retirees - they're done the circuit for years and just don't want to cook any more but still enjoy the contests. The pit crews and retirees will be back amongst the cooks as soon as the judging is over.

Now, I've heard from a lot of long time judges, that after awhile, you know whoose food you are judging. One judge in NJ told me that he could pick out Jack McDavid's ribs at every event. (The names have been changed to protect the innocent) Even I could pick out one team's ribs because I ate as a spectator at a previous event. (I wasn't sure when I was judging, but it was confirmed when he gave me some ribs after the event.)

In the vast majority of cases, I think that the vast majority of judges take the responisibily seriously and do their very best to be fair and honest. This really is a system that could be very easily exploited.

It seems to me that most of the judges have some sort of connection to the teams. Just don't flaunt it before hand.

icemn62 11-09-2005 03:20 PM

I don't cook in a competitive fashion unless you count being better than the last time I cooked. I was always under the impression that there is no way to tell who made what in the turn in box. I am going by the pics I have sen here and elsewhere on the net. To be honest, I could not tell a brisket slice made by spicewine, from Mistas, from the Poobah's unless the pic had captions.

If I were to go the competitive route, I would be offended to be cooking at a contest and later found out one of the brethren where there, and did not come by on Friday to at least say hi. I have only met in person, 3 other members from here, and I went home with the feeling we were friends.

I check this site hours per day and even if I don't agree with everything on the site, I think of all of you as my friends. If I got out and did the competing thing I would want to hang, drink some brews, share some food with any/all of you.

Now to the unenlighten BBQ'ers who are not yet Brethren, I can see where they can imagine some amiss about a judge hanging out with me before a contest. On the other hand, since there is no way he/she can pick whose meat he will be looking at, I don't see the problem. Sure I don't think a Brethren tee shirt should be worn in the judges tent during the judging. I but this is more to appease other people than make me happy.

Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

I agree that the fact this is something you are worried about means that you are in no way trying to cheat, or influence a contest.

Jeff_in_KC 11-09-2005 03:24 PM

Maybe a "policy" is too strong of a term, Tim. Maybe just the fact that we're discussing it here shows our integrity in this matter. I was just thinking of some sort of statement of position so that our brothers would have something to fall back on if an accusation was ever made. Something like "As a member of the BBQ Brethren, we are always reminded to... or encouraged to..." and follow that up with a statement of our own personal integrity. Maybe I'm thinking too much on this. Maybe just a good ol' "Don't ever question MY integrity" would suffice?

Jeff_in_KC 11-09-2005 03:34 PM

I've only been in three contests so far, Gary and no, I have no clue who judged my turn-ins. I don't think that it's possible because of the double blind system BUT... what prevents someone from telling a friend who is judging "If you see such-and-such, you'll know it's mine so score it high." Maybe there's 4-5 other entries that look that way but then all five get scored high if that judge sees them all. I also know the person who used to organize the extinct contest at Piper, Kansas. He said that it was common knowledge around there that judges could tell by the turn-in box who the big names were and thus score them higher if they picked them out.

My point is that in spite of the fact the judging is blind, there are always ways that cheating can take place. That alone makes it necessary to at least have some sort of personal plan of action when you're judging an event to avoid such accusations. I'd just err on the side of caution.

The_Kapn 11-09-2005 03:48 PM

Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?

Gary,
From my perspective only--no and no.
I really do not want to know, but that is just me http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif

And, yes the blind judging takes most of the risk out of a "plant" in the judging tent.

Also, If you have 4 tables or more, one judge will only post one set of scores on one of the team's entries, even if they know who it is. If a judge goes "Hey, that is my Bud Herkimer's entry and gives it 9-9-9, even that will not pull a mediocore entry to the top. It might have a slight influence the rating for an quality entry that was scoring very well anyway, but that is about the extent of the damage.

All of this discussion is not really about screwing with the judging system or doing anything wrong. I am sure all judges call it the way they see it.

The real issue is the "message sent" when other teams can not tell the judges from the teams--perceptual problem.
Can make them wonder, and I understand that.

Good post.

TIM

CharlieBeasley 11-09-2005 04:01 PM

As a spectator in Key Largo (and taster of some great food) I would have to say that if we go on pure perception and left out common sense then we do not have a lot of faith in the “Integrity” of the judges. I saw a group of people who did what they do for several reasons from Money to Prestige and deserve the ability to compete in a fair competition. If the judges are suspect then the problem is bigger than a first time judge catching crap for hanging with friends. I saw the same person delivering food to many non-Brethren competitors he could have just passed out the Exlax and been done with the competition it would have been a lot easer than rigging a vote. We cannot let the cheats and liars of the world win because those with integrity give up their rights just to appease a perception to those who are less than ethical may see a problem.



I am new to competitive BBQ and learned a lot from the Brethren and non-Brethren alike every one I talked with was amazingly friendly and willing to spend a few minutes of their time to talk BBQ. To meet Jimmie, Doug, Ray, Tim and many others was a great experience for me and I will spend a lot of time learning what I learned ( I know that sounds weird but I guess it is overload?) The biggest lesson I learned is all the competitors put their heart into the cooking and completion and I do not think one of them would cheat if they could.



All rambling aside if it is prohibited do not do it if it is not let integrity rule common sense tells me that at least in regions the competitors will soon know each other and will police themselves so the perceptions will not matter.



Neewbe watching and learning THANKS TO ALL WHO PUT UP WITH ME!

BBQchef33 11-09-2005 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icemn62
Question, for those of you who do compete, Do you ever find out who judged you? or do you ever find out whose food you judged?


It would be difficult for a team to find out who judged them, but in my limited experience, AFTER judging, and at a smaller contest, one may be able to know they judged one or two competitors if they got a look at the scoresheet....unless you have a photographic memory, and considering i forget my name sometimes, i dont qualify. :redface:

A teams second number from the double blind tagging is on their scoresheet. You can look at that number and know if you got it in one of your 24 entries. After consuming up to 24 samples, over 2 hours, knowing which catagory and which entry would be a real streatch of my memory.



BTW.. heres achance for some gloating from u ladies... u know who you are..
http://www.kcbs.us/bbq_contest_resul...y_largo_fl.jsp


:biggrin: :biggrin: Proud Poobah Mod. :biggrin: :biggrin:

nmayeux 11-09-2005 06:19 PM

I'm new to the game, but it impresses me that you guys have put so much thought into it. Phil, you flew 1000+ miles to judge, but the real draw was to see your extended family (Brethren). You were cooking on borrowed equipment (not coaching), and you extended the offer to forgoe judging if anyone became concerned. No matter what you do, people will form their own oppinion, so all you can do is be as honest as possible, and do it with as much class as you can muster.

Looking at it from my personal perspective, although I want to win, I want to be judged accurately and honestly. If my turn-ins are bad, I want to know that they are bad, and vise-versa. If I win, I want to know that I won on my own merit! This is the only way that I can improve. The best judges of improper conduct would be Jimmy, Tim, Dave, and the others that were with you, as they were the ones who would be accused of any benefits. Anyway, the bottom line is try to show as much respect to the other competitors as possible, but that being said, if you don't have fun, then you will cease to contribute to this sport that we all love!

Sawdustguy 11-09-2005 07:58 PM

My take on this, unpopular as it may be, is to behave like a professional. If something you do, can be percieved as less than ethical, don't do it. These perceptions become reality as we are all human beings. If you wish to associate with anyone competing, do so after the judging is over and do it doscreetly. Just think of how your wife would feel, if at a company picnic you went off to shoot the breeze with a female co-worker and she saw you. It maybe very innocent, but her perception may prevent you from getting any for a month.

MilitantSquatter 11-09-2005 08:30 PM

Wow...some serious BBQ for thought !!!. Valid points from everyone...

Based on my few months as a Brethen, I think this is a relative non-issue based on the nature of the group.This issue is much larger in scale, well beyond the Brethen and resides with the overall rules of KCBS.

BrooklynQ made a point that wifes & girlfriends, are often in the judges tent.... If there is room for judges who sleep and live with competitors, there surely has to be room for the Brethren to "hang out" for a little while. The Brethren exemplify everything that is right about competition BBQ folks. To me, this alone makes the debate needless especially given the fact that it's blind judging. It is nearly impossible to guarantee pefection to the rules in anything. Cheaters will always cheat in every sport and their will be some who will do whatever it takes to win.

A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?

CharlieBeasley 11-10-2005 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilitantSquatter
Wouldn't it suck to have a ton of trophies only for a non-BBQ afficianado to taste your food and tell you your BBQ taste like goat sh*t ?

Thanks good points and this quote gave me the best GRiN I have had in a while.:biggrin: :biggrin:

Sawdustguy 11-10-2005 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MilitantSquatter
A judge takes an oath, and if it means so much for a team win a cheesy trophy by having a judge give them a high score that is undeserved, then to hell with them.... The best of the best will always stand out in the long run.

I don't know if you realized it, but these contests are for cash prizes. The Grand Champion and Grand Reserve Champion both usually win a few large. I don't think this would be such a big deal if they were just competing for a trophy.

drbbq 11-10-2005 08:33 AM

Hi Guys,
Sorry to be so late.
First off, let's not overreact. No one is saying a judge can't "interact" with a team on Friday. It's a long tradition to party on Friday and judges are welcome. Reps aren't allowed to drink at the event, but judges certainly are, and do all the time. Everyone is allowed to eat and visit with each other. To spend the whole evening in one teams camp might be inappropriate though, since they will have to be prepping for the contest at some point. Use your head, it's not that hard. I don't think KCBS has a solid stance on this. (Gee, what a surprise). Someone told Dave or Tim that the judges were free to do as they please on Friday. True. But.............

I don't think whoever said that was thinking that the judge would be cooking dinner in the teams camp. Maybe that's OK, since it was clearly appetizers and a prime rib, which had no place in this cookoff. I still think it was a questionable idea, since the teams spices, sauces and meat were all in close proximety to the cooking, and the teams pit was being used. One could easily have thought Phil was cooking with this team if they'd stopped for a visit. When Phil was prepping a pile of ribs in the team area at 8:00pm, it definitely looked wrong and that's when we talked about it.

I think Tim is on the right track. If you're coming to judge, do that. Hang out and visit on Friday, but don't plan to cook anything. If you want to cook, just pass on the judging the next day, you can still have fun and eat lots of BBQ. I don't think you should do both.

That's my opinion.

MoKanMeathead 11-10-2005 08:58 AM

Excellent thread! I am a cook and a CBJ and here is an experience that hapened to me this year. I went to a contest to just hang out with a couple of teams on Friday and stick around for the awards to cheer them on. I even slept (well Ok passed out in a chair but thats another thread) under one of the team's tent. I had no intentions of judging.

Saturday morning the contest organizer asked if I would judge since he had 15 judges that were no shows. I told him I would and from that point forward I avoided the teams until after judging. I might also add that I did not help cook or offer advice to any of the teams.

Yes the judging is blind, however I knew a couple of these teams very well and have cooked with some of them or they have cooked with me in the past. I was very concerned that I might recognize an entry but didn't - until the brisket came around. As soon as they opened the very last brisket box I immediately recognized it. I thought about disqualifying myself but that would not have been fair to any other other competitors. I decided to continue judging and feel that I judged ALL of the entries as impartial as possible. The brisket I recognized was OK but not great and I judged it accordingly.

If this were to happen to me again I wold turn down the offer to judge - simply because of the negative perception that some people could have had. I think that if a Brother is judging that it is certainly acceptable (and EXPECTED) to stop buy other Brethern teams on Friday night and hang out - eat, drink and enjoy. However as soon as that team starts to prep their meat or otherwise get ready for the contest it is time to leave. Stop by on Saturday but only to shake hands and introduce yourself - don't hang out while the entries are being prepared. Several Brothers judged the Hermann, MO event this year that I cooked and all of them stoped by for an introduction. I would have loved to have them come in for a drink or two but one, I was busy, and two they were judges.

I think most of us can maintain our impartiality but as others have mentioned - perception is reality - at least in the eyes of the perceiver. I think there are some judges that have recognized an entry or two. The "no marking" tries to prevent that but as you become familiar with some of the teams you just know what their product looks like. Hopefully when this happens the entries are being judged fairly.

jminion 11-10-2005 03:16 PM

As Ray stated judges hanging out on Friday night it is done all the time. Judges cooking with the teams on Friday is not happening much and if someone wants to look for a reason to bitch it could give them a reason (real or not).

Judges are asked not to mix with the teams on Sat. Just recently an offical position was taken on telling judges who food it was they judged, it is not to be done.

drbbq 11-10-2005 03:22 PM

Just so everyone understands what you're talking about Jim.
There has been kind of an unwritten rule, that if a judge asks a rep AFTER judging, whose food he had just eaten, the rep would tell them. What this created was regular judges getting very familiar with some regular cooks entries, and some of these judges even began boasting that they had judged team x or team y today. Then a rumor began that some judges were scoring team x or team y down, for whatever reason. Then the rumor changed that these judges were scoring team x or team y up, instead of down.
It was all bad for the system, and I commend the board for stopping it.

kcpellethead 11-10-2005 05:50 PM

I did not read every response here. I tried to, but damn you guys are serious about this topic (read – long winded), so forgive me if I duplicate somebody else’s answers or ideas. I’m excited that this topic has created such interest and discussion, because I believe it’s all about making competition barbecue better.

First off, every situation is unique. A couple things that make Phil’s experience different from others is wearing a logo that is common to a couple teams and prepping & cooking in a contest site. I realize it wasn’t either team’s actual logo, but two teams where flying these logos. I am a firm believer that perception is greater than reality. As cooks, we understand that judges make friends with teams. It happens quite frequently. It’s become common to see some judges out on Friday evening enjoying the camaraderie of the cook teams.

If a judge decides to hangout with one team on Friday night, they should use their best discretion in deciding when it might not be appropriate to be there. For example, when the team is prepping meat or putting meat on the cookers. It goes without saying that judges should not be involved in prepping or cooking in a team’s space. However innocent, if a team unfamiliar to the situation saw Phil prepping ribs on Friday night in a contest site and entering the judging tent on Saturday, I can see where they might express some concern.

For those of us that don’t feel a judge in our camp on Friday evening is a problem, would it be different if it were three judges? How about six judges or even a dozen judges? If your answer is “yes,” you should probably rethink your opinion on a single judge in your spot. We should all use our best judgment in these situations and try to see these situations in the eyes of an outsider.

Great dialogue!

slat 11-10-2005 08:31 PM

I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

MilitantSquatter 11-10-2005 09:21 PM

KCpellethead's comment made me re-think my position, although I was somewhat on the fence leaning the opposite way in my first post... One judge may not seem like a big deal, but when you start talking about groups of three +, that's not fair and can definitely lead to finger pointing down the road.

I know think that hanging out on Friday's,meet and greet on Sat's before things get down to business etc are OK, but definitely no cooking, helping etc... mainly because of the perception it breeds, even it their is no merit to the true intention of the judge or team involved.

The_Kapn 11-10-2005 11:12 PM

Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

spicewine 11-11-2005 07:47 AM

What's this about Phil wanting to pinch my butt!!:eek:

BrooklynQ 11-11-2005 08:43 AM

Don't we all? :wink:

smokincracker 11-11-2005 11:56 AM

Stumbled down this road once
 
I don’t want to beat this one to death but I think this is very relevant! This was the first chance I have had to put this up.

Prior to my Smokin’ Cracker BBQ Team I was involved with cooking some FBA contests with another team that was sponsored by a men’s club/organization similar to the Brethren. The club is called The Good Ole Boys Supper Club in Sebring, Florida with approx 100 members. The competition cooking team consists of about 4-5 guys and we cooked at only a few FBA events in our surrounding areas as they still do. One of the members of the organization Jon Doe and his wife are certified KCBS & FBA judges. At one of the events we were competing at Jon Doe and his wife were scheduled to judge the event. Upon arriving at the contest mid morning on Saturday my friend Jon Doe & wife stopped by for a quick visit and was very careful not to loiter. During his brief visit the FBA rep visited us and she asked my friend not to judge the contest due to the fact he was wearing a Good ole Boys hat similar to the ones we were wearing and the perception was not good, as questions had arisen by others competing. His wife was permitted to judge. This man was not part of the competition cooking team but just a member of the club. Real Life Experience

Even after that experience. It never crossed my mind that Phil was in our camps or how others may have perceived his presence.
I think the Prime Rib juice blinded me.

Chew on that Farkers

Smoker 11-11-2005 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kapndsl
Let me add one more thought about the future to this discussion--building on Rod's comment about "numbers".

We actively encourage members to get certified and to actually go judge.
It helps teams learn and supports our sport.

And--our numbers are growing weekly.
And--we love (rightfully so) our Brethren attire with our beloved Flaming Pig.
And--we are all social animals by nature. We love to cook and to eat http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif

So--in a year or two:
2 or 3 "Brethren teams" are flying the banner at a major (or local) event.
15 or 20 "Brethren Judges" (1/3rd of the judges) show up to judge.
We "judges" all wear our attire and "hang" a lot (whatever that is) or a little (whatever that is) with our Brothers Teams on Friday night.

At the very least, the Rep is gonna have a heck of a time seperating all the judges wearing the Brethren attire to seperate tables (the same as they do when Dave and I as team-mates with Brethren hats show up)!

Let's add to the confusion--we have all spent a lot of time together on Fri (or whenever)-----?

Now, if the 2 Brethren affiliated teams wind up DAM (dead ass middle) or less--"who cares"??? Answer--no one.

But, let one or both of them get GC or RGC or place high in several meats....?? Answer--everyone!

And guys--this will happen! Not a matter of "IF", but "WHEN"http://bbq-brethren.com/forum/images...on_biggrin.gif
We are geting that big!

So, IMHO, this whole discussion will become very critical in the next few years. Our reputation as responsible competetors, judges, and supporters of competetive BBQ are on the line as we grow.

I intend to support the whole system of competitive BBQ as I stated before.

Great discussion!

TIM

Then it goes back to getting an answer from the KCBS people. I will do whatever we decide as a group since I don't want to upset anyone in the Brethren. If there are no rules about what judges can and can't do then I don't seeing them taking away a GC or a RC from someone because someone complained. To me it keeps going back to integrity. I always give people the benefit of the doubt to start.

Solidkick 11-11-2005 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slat
I have judged some events that had Brothers in them just for the fact that I had a chance to meet some Brothers. I haven't been there the night before, but have shown up early to mingle some before being sworn in. I think that even if a judge was to hang out with one or two teams exclusively the night before it's no big deal. They have that right. I do think that cooking any item should be a big NO NO. Even if it's a Fattie, ABT, Prime Rib, etc. You could possibly show technique or method that could be used to gain an edge or advantage over other teams. You may eat, drink and have fun, but should not be behind the prep area or cooking area for any extended periods of time. There again to be in these areas you may give the appearance of helping out if you linger too long.
As I understand the original statement by Phil I don't think anything could have been taken as wrong until he started cooking in the teams area. I can see where someone might say on Saturday that, hey I saw that judge cooking with a team last night. That would bring about questions.
I think that it all comes down to if you visit with a team, even if it's with just one team, stay out front with the rest of the visitors, which is what you are, and don't spend any excessive time in the prep or cooking area.
That's just my $.02.

Well stated, and exactly my thoughts! I knew there was a reason I liked you, Slat!

wsm 11-11-2005 06:39 PM

This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.

Solidkick 11-12-2005 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wsm
This thread is making me think that when I get a Brethern hat/shirt, I won't wear it while judging, and while visiting on Friday night, I shall not wear judging gear.

Its all about perceptions and if one is not simultaneously perceived as a judge and as a Brethern, one is not suspected of doing anything wrong.

That's if you "planned" to judge from the beginning.....sometimes, you're pressed into action, like myself and my wife, when you go to visit a comp. Thus, that's why you saw me in my Brethren hat and Beta Beta Que t shirt at Herman. We were there to support our brothers in smoke.

slat 11-13-2005 06:55 PM

When an event doesn't have enough judges they pull them from where ever they can get them, whether you are a CBJ or not. I would rather have a guy sitting under the tent with a team hat or shirt on than someone who is sitting there dumbfounded. Chances are that person with a team hat or shirt on either knows how to Que or at least has a good understanding of it.
Who would you want to judge your Que. If I competed I would want the guy who is wearing the hat or shirt. I think he would be fairer than the dumbfounded person who is more than likely giving everybody 9's.

qman 11-13-2005 07:41 PM

Slat, you are right on, as far as logical, thinking ADULTS go. Obviously, I would prefer some one who was apparently connected to the Q world to be in the judging tent.

wsm 11-13-2005 08:12 PM

A big difference between brother Kick and I are saying is that usually I go to a comp PLANNING on judging - if I can say HI to my friends and give them best wishes, that is a bonus - but Brother Kick went to the comp to see his brothers and perhaps share an adult beverage or two - then he was drafted. When he was with his pals he didn't know that he was going to judge, but I did know and I think the rules covering MY conduct should me more stringent then those on Brer Kick.

rookiedad 11-13-2005 08:45 PM

i have a couple of points to make but take into consideration that i have never been in a competition so if i go astray of what is right in the competition world please let me know.
as far as i know there are no KCBS rules against Phil's actions. in a gentlemans game all participants agree to the rules before entering and show trust in the integrity of the other participants actions throughout.
people need to know more about the bbq brethren! as far as i can see we are not exclusive. i dont see the reason for people to suspect a non exclusive group of cheating. in fact if a team really wanted to cheat couldn't they just work with a judge behind the scenes, and then just enter a competition simultaniously. also if folks knew that the brethren was a nationwide group whose members somewhat rarely get a chance to get together it might look suspicious if we don't hang out.
now if we did make a standard of conduct above and beyond the rules as a courtesy to other contestants and as not to draw uneeded suspicion to ourselves this would not be such a bad thing as any evolving group sometimes needs to govern itself.
phil

Sawdustguy 11-13-2005 11:35 PM

Phil,

I understand what you are saying. To a rookie team like mine, we could care less because the odds of winning an event at this point is slim. To the better teams though, they are competing for some relatively big bucks. Grand Champions can take home anywhere from $3000 to $8000 for a large contest. As soon as money enters the picture, things change.

Ron_L 05-21-2007 06:01 PM

It's been a coupl eof years since we beat this one to death :-D, but I'm judging my first competition this coming weekend, aqnd I plan on walking around (incognito, of course :roll:) on Saturday evening (it is a Saturday-Sunday competition) to visit the Brethren teams and the whole gaggle of local teams that I have gotten to know at other comps. The consensus from the old posts seems to be: Visit, stay out front and out of the cooking area, and don't fly any one's colors. Do you all still agree with this?

The_Kapn 05-21-2007 06:44 PM

This is one of the few "resurrections" that we have suffered recently that really warrant it--thanks :lol:

This was a grand and enlightening discussion that holds true today.
Thanks to all that provided input!
Brethren Integrity!

TIM

Moderator's Note--I just made this a Sticky--I think it is that important!

SloppyQ 05-21-2007 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron_L (Post 398097)
It's been a coupl eof years since we beat this one to death :-D, but I'm judging my first competition this coming weekend, aqnd I plan on walking around (incognito, of course :roll:) on Saturday evening (it is a Saturday-Sunday competition) to visit the Brethren teams and the whole gaggle of local teams that I have gotten to know at other comps. The consensus from the old posts seems to be: Visit, stay out front and out of the cooking area, and don't fly any one's colors. Do you all still agree with this?

Agreed Ron, I will be doing the same this weekend and I plan on having a good time in a tasteful manner as to not create a problem for any brethren teams.

Smokin Gator 05-22-2007 08:17 AM

Thanks to Ron for resurrecting this and to Tim for making it a sticky. I had never ran across this one and it was very relevent to me.

I will be judging my first contest in a couple of weeks. It is close to my hometown and I have been looking forward to seeing some of the Brethren I met at my first comp a month ago and meeting some new Brothers (to me) as well. I will try to say hello to everyone on Friday night... maybe share a beer and a laugh and then move on.

Saturday after judging I will be glad to help anyone with any breakdown or whatever but will not go by anyone's area on Saturday morning.


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