Judge what is presented.....or not

[Jason TQ]

Thought I would share this as I got a comment card today. Got it on my brisket. It was the first time I ever turned in only burnt ends. I had enough to make the box look full and I thought they were great. Since I've heard of teams getting good calls on burnt ends I figured why not give it a try and go a little rogue :loco::becky:.

I have heard so many times now during the cook's meeting from KCBS reps that they are working hard on telling the judges to not have pre conceived notions about what may not have made it into the box and "judge what is presented".

Now the brisket score was not great. 20/25 teams. But seems as this judge only knew how to judge tenderness from a "slice". Perhaps it was a new judge since they referred to the burnt ends as a "small cube".

Now at the end of the day it wasn't a big deal. I am the first one to admit brisket is my worst category :icon_blush:, though I did think the burnt ends were good. Anyways, here is the card :grin:.

 

[EMTTLC]

I had great burnt ends in Cleveland and a not so good flat. I almost turned in 16 burnt ends but was afraid I'd end up with an experience just like you had. I've also come close to turning in two beautiful and tender sliced chicken breasts instead of thighs, once again, fear of judges not judging as presented.

 

[gettinbasted]

There is the way it is supposed to be and the way that it is in reality. More times than not you will get dinged by at least one judge if you turn in something other than what is expected.

 

[82's BBQ]

I was just thinking yesterday about what would happen if I turned in a box of only burnt ends.

 

[bigabyte]

Just a thought, but pork has had guidelines for judging tenderness (mushy) by using your tongue and the roof of your mouth. No such guidelines for brisket though.

I think you got screwed, I can judge tenderness of brisket outside of the pull test from experience cooking and eating them. That's something no amount of CBJ training can ever cover. That said, not sure how anyone without that experience can judge it if the only guideline they have ever known is the pull test. Outside of common sense of course (which is always in short supply no matter what you do).

 

[Rookie'48]

It is stressed on the CD that's played at every judges meeting that you're not supposed to judge for what you like,but judge according to KCBS standards. Every CBJ class is taught that you judge "as presented by the cook". Personally, if you give me a box full of some great burnt ends your scores (from me) are going to show a lot of 8s or 9s, but that's just me :wink:.

 

[FMJ]

more than 1 way

several judges look for cooked more than 1 way as an indicater of better skils.. ie pulled , chopped, & sliced pork. No comperative judging -- but something has to set the bar & can't go back & change a score

 

[CaptTable]

Hopefully, that judge was spoken to afterwards. We try to stress that the CD says "one way fo determine tenderness (on brisket) is the pull test". ONE WAY, not the ONLY way.

 

[rookiedad]

i always thought the pull test was to detirmine underdone or overdoneand as you can have a very tender bisket that would fall apart and fail the pull test maybe they should reconsider that as a way of judging tenderness. to me the flat and the point cook like the breast and the thigh of the chicken respectivly. judges have no need to see breast meat when judging thighs and as more and more competitors see that dry flat slices might be pulling down the scores on juicy burnt ends i think you will see less and less of it.

 

[timzcardz]

WTF?

The category is "Brisket," not "Sliced Brisket."

Our best placement (4th) in brisket came from truning in only burnt ends. They were THAT good, and the flat was so-so. I looked at is "Why would I want to eat those slices when I could have these burnt ends?"

At a subsequent competition, I heard a comment made by a judge, about our previous competition, and I believe most likely judged our burnt ends. The comment made was that "if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?" Huh?

 

[dhuffjr]

"if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?"

Which totally discounts the possibility that maybe you dropped it and ends was your only choice.

The reps should have talked to the judge who submitted that comment card IMHO.

 

[jmoney7269]

At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

 

[Corky]

That judge does have nice handwriting. If I wrote it no one would have any idea what I said. :shocked:

 

[arrowhead]

i'm a judge, that's embarrassing.

 

[timzcardz]

"if they only turned in burnt ends can you imagine how bad the flat must have been?"

Which totally discounts the possibility that maybe you dropped it and ends was your only choice.

The reps should have talked to the judge who submitted that comment card IMHO.

It wasn't a comment card. It was stated in the course of a conversation by the judge to one of my team members at a competition two weeks later. The judge didn't know that we were the ones that had turned in only burnt ends.

 

[Pigs on Fire]

This is where great Reps shine.

At your next-to-last contest (Rome and I can't imagine Duluth being different), the KCBS Reps clearly stated that they ask the judges to judge what is in the box...and I believe he went over brisket specifically.

Taking chances is part of the game. I've heard of teams getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd place calls with pulled/chopped brisket only.

 

[Jason TQ]

At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

I do totally get that point. But for KCBS the reps at all the competitions have explicitly told the cooks that they are telling judges "don't over think the cooks for what is in the box". So just because there aren't slices in a box don't think they messed up the flat because you are to "judge as presented".

A couple people mentioned chicken breasts which brings up a good point. So if a team doesn't turn in breasts meat (which almost none do) does that mean they are using the thigh as a crutch because the can't cook a proper breast? Similar to the mindset that if only burnt ends or point is in the box they can't cook a proper flat? Plenty of arguments for both, but when the Reps are specifically telling to judge what is in the box then I would hope they would do so.

 

[Jason TQ]

This is where great Reps shine.

At your next-to-last contest (Rome and I can't imagine Duluth being different), the KCBS Reps clearly stated that they ask the judges to judge what is in the box...and I believe he went over brisket specifically.

Taking chances is part of the game. I've heard of teams getting 1st, 2nd and 3rd place calls with pulled/chopped brisket only.

Yes you are correct. In Rome and Duluth the reps went over it and brisket specifically. Now obviously stating it once doesn't change judges minds over night and it seems they are working hard to change how judges look at food. So it will take some time and I know that. I'm glad they are working to change the mindset.

It definitely is a roll of the dice on what the judges will like. Our best and only brisket call this year had slices and chopped brisket which had a very non-brisket sauce on the chopped and it seemed the judged like it.

 

[dhuffjr]

It wasn't a comment card. It was stated in the course of a conversation by the judge to one of my team members at a competition two weeks later. The judge didn't know that we were the ones that had turned in only burnt ends.

I noted that on your post. I made two lines, on for your post and the other for the original poster, I should've quoted both of you.

 

[SDAR]

At IBCA and lonestar cooks that I have cooked and judged at, and we don't even get to touch the meat. If you can cut a large enough peice, which most of the time you can on brisket, it's all good. IMO if you only had burnt ends in the box, that would throw a flag in my head, "flat was way overcooked and this is all he could salvage"

In IBCA and Lone Star, it has to be sliced...else it is a marked box. You can't even turn in 8 or 9 slices if they ask for 7. You couldn't turn in burnt ends with the slices or it would be a "marked box". Under 50 teams...typically 7 slices. Over 50 teams they ask for 9 slices.

In those contests you can't even trim afterward to fit the box or it will be considered marked. Trim before cook is fine...but afterward will get you disqualified.