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Vince RnQ
01-29-2011, 06:00 PM
This just in...

GC - Serial Griller
RGC - Hambones by the Fire

Full Results (http://www.kcbs.us/events.php?year=2011&month=1&id=2545) are now up on KCBS

Kosmo's Q
01-29-2011, 06:30 PM
Awesome..... Wish we could have made that one for sure! Congrats to all who walked!

beerguy
01-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Thx for posting. Congrats to serial grillers and to Rick of Hambones by the fire. tough crowd to beat!

big brother smoke
01-29-2011, 07:24 PM
Nice showing, Ford!

Alexa RnQ
01-29-2011, 07:38 PM
Full results: http://www.kcbs.us/events.php?year=2011&month=1&id=2545

Grand Champion: Serial Griller
Reserve Champion: Hambones by the Fire

Overall:
1 Serial Griller
2 Hambones by the Fire
3 Pellet Envy
4 Everglades Seasoning BBQ
5 Good Buddies BBQ
6 Chix Swine & Bovine BBQ
7 Whiskey Bent BBQ
8 Great Lakes BBQ & Feed C
9 Iowas Smokey Ds BBQ
10 B S Pitmeisters
11 Big Poppas Country Kitch
12 Quau
13 Swamp Boys
14 Uncle Kennys
15 Grog N Hogs
16 Smokin Triggers
17 Wicked Que
18 Munchees Smokehouse
19 Warren Co Pork Choppers
20 Unknown BBq
21 Git R Smoked
22 C Eliots
23 Tarheel Smokers
24 Skin-N-Bones BBQ
25 Smokin Peaches
26 Naked Bones
27 BubbaChucks BBQ
28 Kathleen Roadkill
29 Firehouse BBQ
30 Porkin Ain't Easy
31 Bubba Grills
32 Hot Wachulas
33 PTs Sweet Heat
34 Smokin N The Boys Room
35 The BBQ Shack
36 BoneSmokers
37 Team Low Rent
38 Full Metal BBQ
39 Jacks Old South
40 PigSilly
41 Blue Ribbon Smokers
42 Swamp Water Boys
43 Crimson Blue
44 Smokin Steves
45 Poppell Insurance BBQ Te
46 Cowtown BBQ
47 U P S
48 Hoggin the smoke
49 Can2Bbq
50 Accutech BBQ
51 Texas Ribs
52 Q Crew
53 Tarheel Cookers
54 Smoke Showin
55 Big Johns Texas BBQ
56 Pot Belly Pigs
57 Rock N Roll BBQ
58 Ebs Pit Stop BBQ
59 Boss Hogg
60 Smokin Taters
61 Two Crackers Cookin
62 JazzeBlues
63 Lazy J BBQ
64 Cool Smoke
65 Jonesez BBQ
66 Smoke Shack


Chicken:
1 Iowas Smokey Ds BBQ
2 Swamp Boys
3 Great Lakes BBQ & Feed C
4 Cool Smoke
5 Smokin Triggers
6 Chix Swine & Bovine BBQ
7 Hambones by the Fire
8 Good Buddies BBQ
9 Rock N Roll BBQ
10 Uncle Kennys
11 Team Low Rent
12 Quau
13 Warren Co Pork Choppers
14 Grog N Hogs
15 Pellet Envy
16 Git R Smoked
17 Everglades Seasoning BBQ
18 Skin-N-Bones BBQ
19 Tarheel Smokers
20 Can2Bbq
21 Serial Griller
22 Smokin Steves
23 Big Poppas Country Kitch
24 Munchees Smokehouse
25 Unknown BBq
26 BubbaChucks BBQ
27 Porkin Ain't Easy
28 Accutech BBQ
29 Smokin Peaches
30 Bubba Grills
31 The BBQ Shack
32 Swamp Water Boys
33 C Eliots
34 Wicked Que
35 Tarheel Cookers
36 Whiskey Bent BBQ
37 Blue Ribbon Smokers
38 Firehouse BBQ
39 Smokin N The Boys Room
40 Naked Bones
41 Hoggin the smoke
42 B S Pitmeisters
43 Texas Ribs
44 Boss Hogg
45 Pot Belly Pigs
46 Hot Wachulas
47 Ebs Pit Stop BBQ
48 PTs Sweet Heat
49 Q Crew
50 Kathleen Roadkill
51 Two Crackers Cookin
52 Lazy J BBQ
53 U P S
54 Crimson Blue
55 Big Johns Texas BBQ
56 Smoke Shack
57 Jacks Old South
58 Full Metal BBQ
59 Smoke Showin
60 BoneSmokers
61 PigSilly
62 Cowtown BBQ
63 Smokin Taters
64 JazzeBlues
65 Poppell Insurance BBQ Te
66 Jonesez BBQ


Ribs:
1 Cool Smoke
2 Serial Griller
3 Chix Swine & Bovine BBQ
4 Great Lakes BBQ & Feed C
5 Pellet Envy
6 Big Poppas Country Kitch
7 Whiskey Bent BBQ
8 Hambones by the Fire
9 B S Pitmeisters
10 Kathleen Roadkill
11 Porkin Ain't Easy
12 Good Buddies BBQ
13 Git R Smoked
14 BoneSmokers
15 Poppell Insurance BBQ Te
16 Smokin Triggers
17 Smokin Peaches
18 Warren Co Pork Choppers
19 Grog N Hogs
20 Hot Wachulas
21 Tarheel Cookers
22 Quau
23 Texas Ribs
24 Blue Ribbon Smokers
25 Uncle Kennys
26 Naked Bones
27 Everglades Seasoning BBQ
28 PTs Sweet Heat
29 Tarheel Smokers
30 U P S
31 Unknown BBq
32 Smokin Taters
33 C Eliots
34 Iowas Smokey Ds BBQ
35 Full Metal BBQ
36 Skin-N-Bones BBQ
37 Q Crew
38 The BBQ Shack
39 PigSilly
40 Swamp Water Boys
41 Hoggin the smoke
42 Swamp Boys
43 Cowtown BBQ
44 Crimson Blue
45 Smokin N The Boys Room
46 JazzeBlues
47 Wicked Que
48 Smoke Showin
49 Bubba Grills
50 Jacks Old South
51 Pot Belly Pigs
52 Big Johns Texas BBQ
53 Boss Hogg
54 Firehouse BBQ
55 Jonesez BBQ
56 Rock N Roll BBQ
57 Munchees Smokehouse
58 Two Crackers Cookin
59 BubbaChucks BBQ
60 Can2Bbq
61 Team Low Rent
62 Accutech BBQ
63 Ebs Pit Stop BBQ
64 Lazy J BBQ
65 Smokin Steves


Pork:
1 Crimson Blue
2 Cool Smoke
3 BubbaChucks BBQ
4 Good Buddies BBQ
5 Warren Co Pork Choppers
6 Whiskey Bent BBQ
7 Big Poppas Country Kitch
8 Munchees Smokehouse
9 Bubba Grills
10 Hambones by the Fire
11 Everglades Seasoning BBQ
12 Quau
13 Great Lakes BBQ & Feed C
14 Serial Griller
15 Pellet Envy
16 Uncle Kennys
17 Wicked Que
18 Jacks Old South
19 Naked Bones
20 Grog N Hogs
21 Swamp Boys
22 B S Pitmeisters
23 C Eliots
24 Firehouse BBQ
25 Smokin Peaches
26 Hot Wachulas
27 Team Low Rent
28 Git R Smoked
29 PigSilly
30 Skin-N-Bones BBQ
31 Smokin Triggers
32 Texas Ribs
33 Poppell Insurance BBQ Te
34 PTs Sweet Heat
35 Smokin N The Boys Room
36 BoneSmokers
37 Unknown BBq
38 Ebs Pit Stop BBQ
39 The BBQ Shack
40 Kathleen Roadkill
41 Smoke Showin
42 Cowtown BBQ
43 Porkin Ain't Easy
44 Tarheel Smokers
45 Full Metal BBQ
46 Boss Hogg
47 Q Crew
48 Big Johns Texas BBQ
49 Swamp Water Boys
50 Iowas Smokey Ds BBQ
51 Smokin Steves
52 Chix Swine & Bovine BBQ
53 Rock N Roll BBQ
54 U P S
55 Hoggin the smoke
56 Accutech BBQ
57 Jonesez BBQ
58 Can2Bbq
59 Blue Ribbon Smokers
60 Tarheel Cookers
61 Lazy J BBQ
62 Smokin Taters
63 Pot Belly Pigs
64 JazzeBlues
65 Two Crackers Cookin


Brisket:
1 Everglades Seasoning BBQ
2 Wicked Que
3 Chix Swine & Bovine BBQ
4 Pellet Envy
5 Whiskey Bent BBQ
6 B S Pitmeisters
7 Iowas Smokey Ds BBQ
8 Munchees Smokehouse
9 Serial Griller
10 Firehouse BBQ
11 Hambones by the Fire
12 Unknown BBq
13 Tarheel Smokers
14 Full Metal BBQ
15 C Eliots
16 Smokin N The Boys Room
17 Swamp Boys
18 BubbaChucks BBQ
19 Uncle Kennys
20 Good Buddies BBQ
21 Quau
22 Kathleen Roadkill
23 Skin-N-Bones BBQ
24 Smokin Steves
25 PTs Sweet Heat
26 PigSilly
27 Naked Bones
28 Grog N Hogs
29 Jacks Old South
30 BoneSmokers
31 Team Low Rent
32 Cowtown BBQ
33 The BBQ Shack
34 Blue Ribbon Smokers
35 Accutech BBQ
36 Smokin Peaches
37 Hot Wachulas
38 Big Poppas Country Kitch
39 Git R Smoked
40 JazzeBlues
41 Bubba Grills
42 Two Crackers Cookin
43 Can2Bbq
44 Smokin Triggers
45 Great Lakes BBQ & Feed C
46 Pot Belly Pigs
47 Swamp Water Boys
48 Big Johns Texas BBQ
49 Porkin Ain't Easy
50 U P S
51 Poppell Insurance BBQ Te
52 Hoggin the smoke
53 Smokin Taters
54 Warren Co Pork Choppers
55 Smoke Showin
56 Ebs Pit Stop BBQ
57 Q Crew
58 Lazy J BBQ
59 Crimson Blue
60 Boss Hogg
61 Tarheel Cookers
62 Texas Ribs
63 Rock N Roll BBQ
64 Jonesez BBQ

warfrat
01-29-2011, 07:43 PM
Looking at the results...Tuffy must've gotten DQ'd in Brisket or he may have won? Wonder what happened?

Sauced!
01-29-2011, 07:43 PM
Anyone know what happened to Cool Smoke's brisket? Looks like a DQ that cost them the whole contest.

Contracted Cookers
01-29-2011, 07:48 PM
what happened to cool smoke.

Alexa RnQ
01-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Late entry.

That's going to be a long drive home.

ClayHill
01-29-2011, 07:57 PM
Late entry.

That's going to be a long drive home.

yikes!!!!

INmitch
01-29-2011, 08:11 PM
I noticed that too. Kinda even makes me sick.:doh: He's to nice of a guy for that to happen to.

WhiskeyBentBBQ
01-29-2011, 08:47 PM
This was a great contest and a really good field. The FBA teams held their own taking 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th, if Ford will allow us to add him, overall in the Top 10.

Weather was beautiful with great sunshine and probably had about 25k - 30k people in attendance.

Put this one on the calendars for next year.

Captain P.J.
01-29-2011, 09:15 PM
Late entry.

That's going to be a long drive home.

A REAL long drive... :doh: Tuffy is a great guy! Hate to see that happen to anyone... I am sure he will make up for it though!!

Ford
01-30-2011, 07:27 AM
This was a great contest and a really good field. The FBA teams held their own taking 4th, 5th, 7th and 8th, if Ford will allow us to add him, overall in the Top 10.

Weather was beautiful with great sunshine and probably had about 25k - 30k people in attendance.

Put this one on the calendars for next year.
Congrats to you as well. That was an impressive field and it's sure nice to see we can cook with the big boys. And of course I'm an FBA boy now. Sent in my membership and just waiting on my info pack and membership card. And I got into Winter Haven at the last minute due to a cancellation so hoping to continue my string of top 10's.

Sorry we didn't get over to visit but it was a lot of work with vending and just a small group. Sure wish we'd been setup by you as we had a real slow time vending where we were. Heard others did a huge business. Well at least I am ready for Winter Haven now. Just need some more nacho chips and cheese sauce.

Finney
01-30-2011, 01:54 PM
Tuffy was late with his brisket.

Congrats to Serial Grillers and Hambones!

Pig Headed
01-30-2011, 02:08 PM
Tuffy was late with his brisket.

Congrats to Serial Grillers and Hambones!

They shouldn't have accepted his box if he was DQ'd.

Ford
01-30-2011, 02:16 PM
There's a video posted to you tube of the brisket turnin. Link is on Basso's forum. He was a full second or 2 late.

And there are major problems with how it was handled. Certainly look like a "star" was going to be given special treatment then common sense took over - especially as it was all caught on tape and the Reps knew it was being taped.

Rub
01-30-2011, 02:27 PM
First a big congratulations to Serial Griller and Hambones by the Fire, great job. And Tuffy nailing a 1st, 2nd, and 4th in any contest is huge, but in this field was incredible. I talked with him and he said it was a great brisket.

... especially as it was all caught on tape and the Reps knew it was being taped.
Bingo. My guess is had the turn in not been taped, we'd have a different GC.

Bunny
01-30-2011, 02:46 PM
There's a video posted to you tube of the brisket turnin. Link is on Basso's forum. He was a full second or 2 late.

And there are major problems with how it was handled. Certainly look like a "star" was going to be given special treatment then common sense took over - especially as it was all caught on tape and the Reps knew it was being taped.

My goodness, Ford. Of all people I can't believe you are saying it "looks as if" a star was given special treatment. You don't know that. As a rep and him being a few seconds late we know there is a no tolerance policy. You don't know exactly what transpired, so please don't assume anything. Remember a box that is late is to be taken to the table and given "1's" because they also need the box number. I do see there are no one's given, but I'm not going to assume anything till we get the facts.
THEN we can all gripe. I just hate it when everyone gets on a roll and starts pointing fingers. It's happened to me when no one knew whatever happened. It' very disheartening.

smoque shack
01-30-2011, 03:41 PM
was this based on a 15 point system? or 10?.....if 10, then how did pellet envy score so high?....confused.

YankeeBBQ
01-30-2011, 03:47 PM
Yeah we should wait and see while they handle the matter in executive session and nobody ever tells the membership what truly happened. Give me a break Bunny. I luv ya but you have to stop being an enabler for the secrecy police of the KCBS. If we don't talk and gripe about this stuff in public then nothing ever gets brought out into the open.

It was Carolyns call to make whether or not to accept that entry and she obviously decided to accept it. The video shows that as clear as day. It looks like she changed her mind later when she realized the video existed. When did KCBS implement Instant Replay I cant's find it in the rules anywhere ?

ique
01-30-2011, 03:58 PM
They shouldn't have accepted his box if he was DQ'd.

Exactly. Even Tuffy looked surprised they were taking the entry in the video. Sooo close.

Capn Kev
01-30-2011, 04:07 PM
After watching the video, it was REALLY close. The clock was down and the DQ was warranted. I know it's painful for everyone involved (rep and cook). However, the right outcome prevailed. It was 1:35:01... which is late. It was a $2500-$3000 mistake.

Jorge
01-30-2011, 04:09 PM
Take it, or don't.

The issues involved are a lot bigger than Tuffy getting a DQ. The issue is a REP hesitantly giving the nod and OK for a late entry to be accepted. It was either within the window, or it wasn't.

KCBS is selling a service, to insure a contest is fair to all parties. That video, doesn't make that case.

YankeeBBQ
01-30-2011, 04:14 PM
After watching the video, it was REALLY close. The clock was down and the DQ was warranted. I know it's painful for everyone involved (rep and cook). However, the right outcome prevailed. It was 1:35:01... which is late. It was a $2500-$3000 mistake.

I don't think the video is that cut and dry. You don't see Tuffy Enter the room. Were there people blocking the door when he tried to enter ? If he was in the door at 1:35:00 is he in line and on time ? I think if he was dq'd on the spot it would have been warranted but he wasn't. It was the reps call. The rep accepted the entry. That is very clear. CYA is what it looks like to me. (that stands for Cover Your ass)

Smokedelic
01-30-2011, 04:25 PM
Well...at least there's something else to discuss for the next day or 2 besides pork collars.

Capn Kev
01-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Well...at least there's something else to discuss for the next day or 2 besides pork collars.

AGREED! :thumb:

If we could bottle the stamina from that thread, we'd be able to put Viagra out of business! :becky:

G$
01-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Take it, or don't.

Remember a box that is late is to be taken to the table and given "1's" because they also need the box number.


Jorge. Is Bunny stating something that is not true, or just something that you do not agree with? (Honest question)

I think we can all agree that none of us would want to make that call, regardless of who it was. It was that close. Instant replay close. And even then, we are each going to sit hear and cast our own interpretation and definition on things like "in line".

Only way to prevent that is not put yourself in that position.

No win.

:sick:

The_Kapn
01-30-2011, 06:24 PM
I have watched the video several times.

It is apparent that Tuffy was either late, or was denied a bunch of dollars with the call.!!!!
I can not tell which and will not speculate.

Here is what I do see.

Competetive BBQ has evolved into a game of seconds, inches, fractions of a point, and of "pushing the limits" on every rule in the books.
Lots of "BBQ Lawyers" looking for any loophole to exploit.
Just like NASCAR.

I can see "lines on the floor" with "stop action video" superimposed with the "atomic clock feed" to determine the time cutoff!
I can see Reps and Meat Inspectors needing a degree in "meat cuts" to evaluate the entries teams make.
I can see closed circuit TV in every site (and enclosed MH/trailer) to monitor teams compliance with the myriad of rules.

Is this where we are going???

I started in 2004 and it was fun then.
We had rules, and I think most folks played by them.
If not, there was not all that much on the line except pride.

Now we have marketing/sales of products, TOTY prize funds, Sam' and Rancher's prize funds, "Invitationals" of every sort which pay big bucks, and "who knows what" other financial incentives. Not to mention the bucks to be made if you can snag some "Grands" and give classes.

Nothing at all wrong with all of that---but we pay a price.

Scary.

TIM

ique
01-30-2011, 06:35 PM
. Remember a box that is late is to be taken to the table and given "1's" because they also need the box number.

That's not how KCBS contests work in my neck of the woods. You are late and you get to walk back to camp box in hand.

YankeeBBQ
01-30-2011, 06:42 PM
That's not how KCBS contests work in my neck of the woods. You are late and you get to walk back to camp box in hand.

Shhhh you'll get all of our reps fired again with no explanation given.:doh:

Ron_L
01-30-2011, 06:52 PM
There's a video posted to you tube of the brisket turnin. Link is on Basso's forum. He was a full second or 2 late.



Here is the video for those that haven't seen it. Tuffy comes in at about 3:00 into the video...

YouTube - Competitor get Disqualified for being Late (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc1tcNXZCyE)

There is also a video of Tuffy being interviewed when he gets a call (from the rep?) telling him that he was DQ'd. Do reps have our cell phone numbers? I thought they walked over with bad news?

YouTube - Tuffy Stone would have won (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR1xbABEWa0)

YankeeBBQ
01-30-2011, 06:58 PM
I believe the call was from his dad. I don't think he's being interviewed at his site.

smokincracker
01-30-2011, 08:22 PM
First a big congratulations to Serial Griller and Hambones by the Fire, great job. And Tuffy nailing a 1st, 2nd, and 4th in any contest is huge, but in this field was incredible. I talked with him and he said it was a great brisket.


Bingo. My guess is had the turn in not been taped, we'd have a different GC.

YUP! You got it.

smokincracker
01-30-2011, 08:25 PM
Yeah we should wait and see while they handle the matter in executive session and nobody ever tells the membership what truly happened. Give me a break Bunny. I luv ya but you have to stop being an enabler for the secrecy police of the KCBS. If we don't talk and gripe about this stuff in public then nothing ever gets brought out into the open.

It was Carolyns call to make whether or not to accept that entry and she obviously decided to accept it. The video shows that as clear as day. It looks like she changed her mind later when she realized the video existed. When did KCBS implement Instant Replay I cant's find it in the rules anywhere ?

Someone threw a red flag....instant replay kicked in....Wow that video made her look real bad.

warfrat
01-30-2011, 09:07 PM
Like my buddy LC says, "some days you're the windshield, some days you're the bug"...I hate it for Tuffy...still, he had a helluva cook looked like!

Finney
01-30-2011, 09:30 PM
I believe the call was from his dad. I don't think he's being interviewed at his site.

The call was his dad.
That's "Grog N Hogs" trailer. You can see Jeff in the black t-shirt a few times during the interview.

The guy that walks into the trailer during the interview is Rick Hamilton ("Hambones by the Fire", the guy that won Reserve).

Rub
01-30-2011, 09:57 PM
Someone threw a red flag....instant replay kicked in....Wow that video made her look real bad.
Damnit, forgot to give a big shout out to my bud Jimmy who won the Governor's cup for a third time at Lakeland! Way to go man :becky:

Smoke'n Ice
01-30-2011, 10:45 PM
The events that I saw and heard on the video were:
Comeon Tuffy
Times Up
Clock down
Box down
Please?
head shake
Take box
Oh Tuffy
Arrange box
Thank you Carolyn
In my neck of the woods, you walk back with the box, no matter what.
Not a way to start the New Year.

I have to agree about the video changing the ruling. It took a while for them to actually notify the team about the DQ. If that were the case, (DQ) it would have been 1's. No Box, No Score. That is what we are left with.

Bunny
01-30-2011, 11:33 PM
Yeah we should wait and see while they handle the matter in executive session and nobody ever tells the membership what truly happened. Give me a break Bunny. I luv ya but you have to stop being an enabler for the secrecy police of the KCBS. If we don't talk and gripe about this stuff in public then nothing ever gets brought out into the open.

It was Carolyns call to make whether or not to accept that entry and she obviously decided to accept it. The video shows that as clear as day. It looks like she changed her mind later when she realized the video existed. When did KCBS implement Instant Replay I cant's find it in the rules anywhere ?

Steve, you have a point about griping inthe public. But me enabling the secrecy police of the KCBS?! Give me a break! ROTFLMAO!!

I understand it was Carolyn's call, but did we hear what she said and meant? I didn't and think most people are speculating. That's all I'm saying. We, as reps, are to accept the late entry just to have their number..take it to the table and tell them to score it "1's" across the board because it's late. I'm not defending anyone here, nor am I accusing. Just waiting for results.

Hey, and I love you, too. :-D

Signed,
007

dbaldin
01-31-2011, 03:15 AM
After some hesitation, I decided to post on this thread. I watched the videos and what I saw was a lack of discretion, and more significantly, a bigger question: Do cameras do more harm than good? This question affects me because of the live webcasting ability of WiredBBQ. Do I do more harm than good?

I think that's a new thread that I want to start after I post this. But for now, with these particular videos, I have this to say: A) Tuffy should not have been strung along and made to believe his box was accepted. It should have been an immediate decision; B) the person behind the camera should not have started counting down the seconds. His job(?) is to capture the event, not participate in the event.

So the dilemma is, with the camera there, rules were maintained, OR without a camera there, a "favorite" could have possibly won it all.

Personally, I think the jackass that posted the videos didn't do himself, or Tuffy any favors. But I think he did expose a problem that seems to be developing into a theme recently in regards to the use of cameras and tact.

Pig Headed
01-31-2011, 05:51 AM
Interesting observation. Indeed worthy of a new topic. I do believe that the presence of the video had a bearing on the outcome of this situation whether intended or not. That doesn't excuse the 40 minute delay delay of notifying a team of the DQ though or why the decision apparently was changed. CYA? yes I think so.

Fishiest1
01-31-2011, 06:02 AM
Congrats Ford! Very good showing!

Jorge
01-31-2011, 07:24 AM
Jorge. Is Bunny stating something that is not true, or just something that you do not agree with? (Honest question)




Yesterday I was shaking off the end of a 48 hr. virus, or a light dose of the flu....

The following is my understanding as of yesterday, and I'm going to try to get the FACTS today...

The rule used to be that your box would NOT be accepted if you missed the window, leading to the walk of shame that others have mentioned. Bunny is saying that they will now accept the box, and score it a 1. My recollection is this change was made a year or two ago, to deal with the 15th, 25th, or 50th team missing a window and removing that contest from the Jack draw.

From the two videos that I saw, Tuffy appeared to be late (but as Steve pointed out we can't see enough to know what if anything happened outside the view of the camera). Watching the second video, it's pretty clear to me that Tuffy either wasn't DQ'd at the table or he wasn't told that he'd been DQ'd. The clock was face down, and the box was still in hand. There is hesitation from both people visible at the table before Tuffy was given the nod to turn the box in.

I've seen people arrive just outside the window, and they have ALWAYS been told that they were late "I'm sorry...", etc... I've played that video through the home theater system, and can't hear anything indicating a DQ.

I understand what Bunny is saying, and others have made great arguments from the other side. I tend to agree with the latter. As I said initially, the important issue here is a lot larger than Tuffy getting a DQ in brisket. KCBS sells a contest administration package for lack of a better term. That includes judging, scoring, rules enforcement, etc... The benefit to teams and organizers is the security in knowing that the contest will be fair to all parties. The video that is public, and the way this was allegedly handled calls that into question. I think that's reason enough for folks to be concerned, and interested enough to get a clear and timely explanation from the BoD. The incident is now public, and in my opinion, the results of the investigation as well as any remedies need to be public as well.

drbbq
01-31-2011, 07:55 AM
Personally, I think the jackass that posted the videos didn't do himself, or Tuffy any favors. But I think he did expose a problem that seems to be developing into a theme recently in regards to the use of cameras and tact.

So do you think he should have just kept the video to himself?

G$
01-31-2011, 07:57 AM
If KCBS sells a "rules package & enforcement", did they end up getting it "right"?

IF (big if) we assume we agree the box was late, would you rather the "right" ruling not be enforced at the end of the day, just because it is painful and heartbreaking for those involved?

I have to be frank Jorge: I am not sure your opinion is consistent.

If a team turned in pork, only to discover after turn in that they parted it before cooking, would you advocate letting the turn in stand because it was originally accepted on good faith?

What if that team had only one call that contest? What if they were not aware that they violated the parting rule? Would that change your ruling?

General observation: There is a real contradiction that a lot of folks want KCBS to first and foremost uphold the rules, but also think the rules are overcomplicated, too rigid, and un-necessary.

drbbq
01-31-2011, 07:59 AM
I think that's reason enough for folks to be concerned, and interested enough to get a clear and timely explanation from the BoD. The incident is now public, and in my opinion, the results of the investigation as well as any remedies need to be public as well.

Let's not forget that this is the long time Executive Director of a non-profit organization. In the real world she would be in serious jeopardy. But in the KCBS world I suspect she will come out of this as the martyr.

DawgPhan
01-31-2011, 08:00 AM
Does anyone think they got the call wrong? That Tuffy should have been considered "on-time"? Looks like he was late and they called it as such...looks case closed to me.

goodbuddiesbbq
01-31-2011, 08:13 AM
Congrats to Cereal Grillers and Hambones by the Fire...you beat an extremely talented field. To Jimmy Brod...congrats...that Governors Cup was almost more important to us than GC itself would have been. When they called that you should have heard the terrible things I said about you inside my head:tsk:...another good showing at Lakeland, you may have to move from Sebring and call that home.

Tuffy had the best stuff this weekend...not in question. I was steaming at our camp upset about getting 3 calls and our chicken (we thought was great) get hammered and cost us a real shot at GC, when I saw Tuffy walk back to camp with his 3 trophies. The guy is a professional and even when congratulated by people who were unaware of his DQ at the time and continued to "thank" them all the way back to his site. As a competitor I know it ate at him each time he had to thank people, but he still did, without a single comment about how he was robbed or anything negative. The guy is a pro! He is a great guy and you don't have to know him to see that.

However, don't feel too bad for Tuffy for too long...he'll be in your neck of the woods very soon taking all of the prize money. The guy is a champion. After he gets to the Georgia border he'll probably start dog cussing a little bit, but he will be tearing it up again his next time out.

Cameras...they are good for this hobby/sport in my opinion. Look how many people are itching for results within minutes of award shows. If you don't want them in your camp, don't let them in. I feel they are a great way to let people see people that they are talking to each day on these forums. I had to watch the tape a few times. First to confirm that Dan (our turnin guy) did actually walk our box all the way with his Red Stripe gripped in his teeth. I guess that we still aren't ready for the box carrying case if that is how we turn a category in. Maybe he dropped one on our chicken...I'll go with that.

Second, to see the call heard round the bbq world. It's terrible and hard to watch...I felt like I had to minimize my window when my wife was in the room, like I was looking at something I shouldn't be. However, despite the effort (Tuffy stretching for the finish line and almost taking out the entire table) and how the decision was made...they didn't score the box as being "truly accepted". Justice prevailed, hearts were broken, weather was still perfect.

I thought my brother made a 3500 dollar mistake in Plant City by leaving his 5th and 6th rib connected, but Tuffy may have just topped the list. Not trying to pile on...just saying these things are happening all of the time and if not for that camera...we wouldn't have bbq gold to show Tuffy on our cell phones for years to come.

Sorry Tuffy...that's brutal, but I hope you would feel the same way. If nothing else, you will have a new KCBS rule named after you. You will be immortalized forever, like George Brett,

KCBS Rule 9.4.1.9: The Tuffy Exception
If a particpant lays a box in front of rep with the time being past acceptable time, it will be DQ'd. Participants puppy dog eyes and exhausted expressions shall not be viewed as cute. This is especially crucial for friends, grandparents, small children and drunks. They are all masters of their craft and do not negotiate with them...they all have been classically trained not to return to camp with a box.

As for the rep...it didn't look great and I'm sure she went around the corner and got a second opinion from another rep or similar and made the final call. I feel more sorry for her than anybody. She had to make that brutal call, she was not in thinking a participant is about to rhino (maybe gazelle) around the corner into this 8x8 room and tackle the table. Probably caught off guard as anybody would have been from watching the video.

The right team won this event. Cereal Grillers had the best score within all of the rules that we play by. No exceptions!

However, Whiskey Bent BBQ had the best food...the judges don't know what good chicken taste like...AGAIN!

Shake it off Tuffy and get out of Florida...with scores like the first three we don't want you down here anymore. Took all the prize money, trophies, beer and almost broke our turn-in facilities.:becky::becky::becky:

Must add smiley faces so that I don't get threats.

Jorge
01-31-2011, 08:19 AM
If KCBS sells a "rules package & enforcement", did they end up getting it "right"?

IF (big if) we assume we agree the box was late, would you rather the "right" ruling not be enforced at the end of the day, just because it is painful and heartbreaking for those involved?

I have to be frank Jorge: I am not sure your opinion is consistent.

If a team turned in pork, only to discover after turn in that they parted it before cooking, would you advocate letting the turn in stand because it was originally accepted on good faith?

What if that team had only one call that contest? What if they were not aware that they violated the parting rule? Would that change your ruling?

General observation: There is a real contradiction that a lot of folks want KCBS to first and foremost uphold the rules, but also think the rules are overcomplicated, too rigid, and un-necessary.

Let me clear my desk, and I'll be happy to PM my cell # if you like, and we can both save a lot of time.

ThomEmery
01-31-2011, 08:25 AM
If the rule on late boxes is "take it and give the team ones" there is no problem
correct?

Jorge
01-31-2011, 08:34 AM
If anybody has some first hand knowledge of a DQ for being late, with at least one KCBS Rep present, and not being told that they were DQ'd for being late I'd love to hear it.

Ford
01-31-2011, 08:37 AM
Tuffy had the best stuff this weekend...not in question. I was steaming at our camp upset about getting 3 calls and our chicken (we thought was great) get hammered and cost us a real shot at GC, when I saw Tuffy walk back to camp with his 3 trophies. The guy is a professional and even when congratulated by people who were unaware of his DQ at the time and continued to "thank" them all the way back to his site. As a competitor I know it ate at him each time he had to thank people, but he still did, without a single comment about how he was robbed or anything negative. The guy is a pro! He is a great guy and you don't have to know him to see that.
Know exactly how you feel. I was 3rd chicken, 5th ribs and 13th in pork and had a 149 score in Brisket. Now I knew it wasn't great but thought it was OK. That's how this sport goes.

And I totally agree with your read on Tuffy. Class act all the time and great guy. But he admits he pushes the window some times on Brisket. I remember him yelling RUN on one of the TLC shows.

drbbq
01-31-2011, 08:37 AM
How about a statement from Carolyn on the KCBS website? That would clear everything up. And it would be even better if she was hooked up to a lie detector.

Smoke'n Ice
01-31-2011, 09:33 AM
It appears, from post concerning this weekend that the inconsistent judging issues faced by all may, in part, be caused by inconsistent reps and it is from the top down.

Two (2) of the published rep advisories, 4.52 Turn in Time and 4.36 DQing an Entry, were either ignored, misapplied or unknown by part of the rep team. In addition, another rep team that has posted to defend some of the mistakes are also unaware of rep advisory 4.52 Turn in Time.

What I would like to know from the board is, do they plan on following their own rules for disciplining or will it just be ignored?

Ford
01-31-2011, 09:43 AM
6.36 Subject: DQing an Entry
Question: Should I wait until the judging is over to notify a team that they have been disqualified
(DQed)?
Opinion: A Rep MUST IMMEDIATELY notify the team that their entry has been disqualified and
why. In all but rare circumstances the Rep should carry the 9 x 9 Styrofoam container out to the
team as evidence. However, the team should be advised the product shown will not be returned as it
can not be resubmitted. This disqualification does not mean a fresh entry can not be turned in during
subsequent categories. Thus, a newly numbered Styrofoam should be delivered if applicable. This
task should only be carried out by the KCBS Rep and not assigned to the Contest Organizer or
volunteer.
NOTE: This may not be practical to execute in a very large contest (American Royal, Lenexa, Great
American), and depends on the workload of the Contest Reps.
February 17, 2006, amended April 9, 2008

Red is my highlighting below.
6.52 Subject: Turn in Time
Question: Is it permissible for a rep to use their discretion in accepting a late entry?
Opinion: While we all want to be kind and use our judgment, the rule for turn in time is clear and
not subject to variation. The rule states: "The allowable turnin
time will be five (5) minutes before
to five (5) minutes after the posted time with no tolerance. Late entries will not be accepted.
There shall be no variance. Violation of the rule is ground for discipline of the Contest Rep team.
Thus, when the 5 appears, no turn in will be allowed unless the entry was in line. It is a good
practice to show the clock to any late entry immediately to prevent any issue as to the time on the
official clock.

ique
01-31-2011, 09:52 AM
Shhhh you'll get all of our reps fired again with no explanation given.:doh:

Or maybe our Reps should offer a little refresher course on the rules for those in other parts of the country.

Big George's BBQ
01-31-2011, 10:58 AM
Congrats to all who walked
Too bad about Tuffy

dbaldin
01-31-2011, 01:29 PM
So do you think he should have just kept the video to himself?

Not necessarily. But the intent of posting of those particular videos seems odd. The 1st is titled "Competitor Gets Disqualified" but that is clearly not what happens in the video. The 2nd is titled "Tuffy Would Have Won", which, taken with the interviewer's comments that they should have accepted the entry, indicates he had a strong bias. What is funny here is that had he not been taping it, they probably would have accepted the box, so he basically shot himself in the foot. I guess my problem with them is, IMHO, that they were posted to show how the Mean Ol' KCBS stole a win away from someone he liked. It doesn't seem like he even considered the ramifications of catching what he did on tape, which was more significant, that a Rep gave an OK to accept a late entry.

Regardless, they are important in what they show.

Rick Hamilton
01-31-2011, 01:46 PM
How about this thread be about what it should be about? Congratulating Serial Grillers on a great win. Mark and Moses cook their arses off and came in as Grand Champs.

Congratulations guys!

DawgPhan
01-31-2011, 01:47 PM
Not necessarily. But the intent of posting of those particular videos seems odd. The 1st is titled "Competitor Gets Disqualified" but that is clearly not what happens in the video. The 2nd is titled "Tuffy Would Have Won", which, taken with the interviewer's comments that they should have accepted the entry, indicates he had a strong bias. What is funny here is that had he not been taping it, they probably would have accepted the box, so he basically shot himself in the foot. I guess my problem with them is, IMHO, that they were posted to show how the Mean Ol' KCBS stole a win away from someone he liked. It doesn't seem like he even considered the ramifications of catching what he did on tape, which was more significant, that a Rep gave an OK to accept a late entry.

Regardless, they are important in what they show.

sounds like sour grapes to me.

Brauma
01-31-2011, 02:59 PM
How about this thread be about what it should be about? Congratulating Serial Grillers on a great win. Mark and Moses cook their arses off and came in as Grand Champs.

Congratulations guys!

Big-time congrats to you too, Rick. You are on a roll, dude. You impressed the chit out of me when you came to WV solo and took Grand.

Got any room for a protege? :wink:

YankeeBBQ
01-31-2011, 03:42 PM
How about this thread be about what it should be about? Congratulating Serial Grillers on a great win. Mark and Moses cook their arses off and came in as Grand Champs.

Congratulations guys!

Ummm the thread is titled Lakeland Results. What happened certainly effected the results so I think we are within our rights to talk about it. It doesn't and shouldn't take anything away from Serial Grillers win, Congrats to them and all that walked.

Greendriver
01-31-2011, 04:32 PM
Wouldn't the fact that the box went into the tray with the rest of the boxes be a key factor in the controversy? I don't know, just asking. Seems like it should have been held out separate from the rest.

Sauced!
01-31-2011, 05:15 PM
Clock was down, box wasnt on the table, the rep and tuffy have an uncomfortable stare down before she says 'its okay' and takes the entry. Not much else to say about it except the rules weren't followed.

Pig Headed
01-31-2011, 07:57 PM
Whether or not the box was turned in on time is only a small part of the controversy. Ask anyone in law enforcement and they will tell you that every witness sees the same thing slightly if not largly in a different light. So for everyone that saw the video, there will be different interpretations of what they saw. I believe the change of mind and the indecision is the bigger point. Don't accept an entry and then 40 minutes later tell the team you changed your mind. Just my humble opinion.

Slamdunkpro
01-31-2011, 09:42 PM
I've worked a lot of KCBS turn in tables in the last couple of years. My understanding of the procedure as I've seen it is:



When the clock hit 5, it goes face down and that's it, unless your entry is one the table when the clock flips or there is a line, then you point to the last person in the line and designate them as "the end" and someone goes and stands behind them.
If someone is late, you inform them of their DQ, get their box number and send them on their way. The box number is given to the table captain and the rep instructs the judges to give that box number all "1"'s in all categories then write "late entry" in the back of the score card with the box number. They end up with a score of "20" in that category.
If they don't show up at all or are DQ'd in the field, then they get zeros and are not listed on the results.
If they are late and they put the box on the table, then they are informed of their DQ, but the box is not returned once it hits the table. The box is set aside and the number given to the table captain and so on same as above. The box does not go in the table bread box.

I looked at the 2011 rules and the rep advisories and this all seems correct.

From watching the video my questions would be:


Why was Tuffy given his box back after he put it on the table?
Why was he allowed to put it in the bread box instead of back on the table?
Why didn't wasn't he informed of the DQ on the spot?
Why wasn't he DAL on the brisket results with a score of 20 instead of not being listed at all?

I'd be curious to get Smoke n Da Eyez take on this since he got DQ'd at New Holland at the very last second and also find out if he was DQ'd on the spot.

ALX
02-01-2011, 12:05 AM
How about this thread be about what it should be about? Congratulating Serial Grillers on a great win. Mark and Moses cook their arses off and came in as Grand Champs.

Congratulations guys!

Hambones and Cool Smoke go down dere..It was just shot away...Congrats.

dbaldin
02-01-2011, 01:19 AM
sounds like sour grapes to me.

I won't deny that. Doesn't make it less questionable though.

Bigmista
02-01-2011, 01:48 AM
Congrats to my brother Jimmy for his first place brisket and 4th overall!

G$
02-01-2011, 07:44 AM
Whether or not the box was turned in on time is only a small part of the controversy. Ask anyone in law enforcement and they will tell you that every witness sees the same thing slightly if not largly in a different light. So for everyone that saw the video, there will be different interpretations of what they saw. I believe the change of mind and the indecision is the bigger point. Don't accept an entry and then 40 minutes later tell the team you changed your mind. Just my humble opinion.

I hate to keep bringing this up, but what did you want to happen? Once it was 'discovered or determined' that the entry was late, did you still want them to score and count the entry? Is that better?

That is what I hate about this deal: No win situation for many involved.

lcbateman3
02-01-2011, 07:52 AM
This is from Tuffy posted on his Cool Smoke Facebook account


Well as probably everyone knows by now, we experienced our first DQ this weekend. It was a very long drive back to Virginia and I had ample time to beat up on myself. In retrospect, I would have not tweaked my brisket box at all, since I only needed 131 points to win. If I look at the bright side of things, I cooked new rib and pork recipes and they seem to have worked out, so that is good. I can now say from experience that being DQ’d is an awful thing to experience and I will always remember that day.

My first three turn ins went in without issue and my cook was going smooth. We had liked our food on Saturday, including our brisket, and were enjoying cooking bbq. While I may have to run for turn ins upon occasions , I don’t try to test the limits. I felt like I had began to build my brisket box on time and would be ok. My clock was 1 minute slower than the official clock and I was aware of that. We knew when we closed the box that it was going to be close and I ran my skinny butt off to turn in. Turn in area was a little tight, because of a narrow doorway and cooks exiting and this made for an interesting entry. When I placed my box on the table, I looked at Carolyn and then down at the clock which was still in her hand. I did not know if I had made it or not. I did know that this was the closest I have ever been and I never wanted to be this close again. I was told to place my box on the tray, which I did, and then the tray went to judging. I don’t know if I was DQ’d at that point or not. I believe that this event had happened so fast that everyone at that table was stunned. It may be easy to look at a video from the perspective of that camera and determine I was late, but I think from other perspective in the room it wasn’t so easy. I can truthfully say I had no idea. I suspect that Carolyn and the other gentleman at the table wanted to make sure that they made the right call. From looking at the video it looks close enough to be considered a tie, but I know I am biased.

Anyways, I ended up being disqualified for being late and it was tough. It was tough on my Dad, myself, and some my friends there. It was extremely tough on the reps there. I was doing an interview and my Dad called multiple times, which made me realize it was important. I took the call and went to my site to find Carolyn and Wayne there. My heart sunk and they looked very upset. It was a tough moment and no one was enjoying it. I went back and resumed my interview which was difficult.

We went to awards where we ended up being 4th in Chicken, 1st in Ribs, and 2nd in Pork which underscored how significant our late entry was. On a bright note, we witnessed our good friends Serial Grillers and Hambones by the Fire take GC and RGC. This was Serial Grillers first GC and I took some good pictures of them. Congrats again to you both and way to go on making Virginia proud.

The ladies of Lakeland did a fantastic job as always and this contest is great. The rep crew was great also and I am sorry that I created such a difficult situation!! I didn’t mean to be so close. I would like to say that this experience will help me to never get DQ’d again, but I am too superstitious to say that! Congrats again to Serial Grillers and Hambones by the Fire!!
Tuffy

musicmanryann
02-01-2011, 08:40 AM
Spoken like a true champion. 100% class.

Capn Kev
02-01-2011, 10:18 AM
Tuffy is the classiest act out there in my book. He could not have explained the situation better.

goodbuddiesbbq
02-01-2011, 11:02 AM
Good Lord...they single handidly are going to take all of the money out of Florida and double dip us into another recession.

Congrats to Serial Grillers & Hambones Again.

Balls Casten
02-01-2011, 12:45 PM
I could drive home ok. But how about getting the calls he did knowing his brisket was late. Would not wish that on anyone.

big brother smoke
02-01-2011, 12:52 PM
I got my DQ at my first KCBS contest; it was in ribs. I was cooking solo and going back to my site with box in hand is one of longest walks of my life. I wanted to fling my box across the pavement, but I did not. I had no one to blame, but me. The hard part is that I did not do another contest for two months, but, thankfully I redeemed myself at the next comp; oddly I placed in every category, but ribs, lol!

The strange part of the contest was that I did not finish DAL!:becky:

HBMTN
02-01-2011, 01:55 PM
I think to bring this to a lighter note Tuffy is saying - boys I've got my BBQ dialed in, now I just have to beat that clock. If ya want to beat me ya better bring your A game. Which is what ( for me ) I have to do. After all if I do what I need to do to win then it does not matter what time he gets his box setting on the table. That just has not happened for me yet though but I'm trying :) Tuffy is 1st Class

smokincracker
02-01-2011, 02:31 PM
Congrats to my brother Jimmy for his first place brisket and 4th overall!

Thanks Niel....When you gonna come cook with the Cracker in FL???

smokincracker
02-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Congrats to Cereal Grillers and Hambones by the Fire...you beat an extremely talented field. To Jimmy Brod...congrats...that Governors Cup was almost more important to us than GC itself would have been. When they called that you should have heard the terrible things I said about you inside my head:tsk:...another good showing at Lakeland, you may have to move from Sebring and call that home.

Tuffy had the best stuff this weekend...not in question. I was steaming at our camp upset about getting 3 calls and our chicken (we thought was great) get hammered and cost us a real shot at GC, when I saw Tuffy walk back to camp with his 3 trophies. The guy is a professional and even when congratulated by people who were unaware of his DQ at the time and continued to "thank" them all the way back to his site. As a competitor I know it ate at him each time he had to thank people, but he still did, without a single comment about how he was robbed or anything negative. The guy is a pro! He is a great guy and you don't have to know him to see that.

However, don't feel too bad for Tuffy for too long...he'll be in your neck of the woods very soon taking all of the prize money. The guy is a champion. After he gets to the Georgia border he'll probably start dog cussing a little bit, but he will be tearing it up again his next time out.

Cameras...they are good for this hobby/sport in my opinion. Look how many people are itching for results within minutes of award shows. If you don't want them in your camp, don't let them in. I feel they are a great way to let people see people that they are talking to each day on these forums. I had to watch the tape a few times. First to confirm that Dan (our turnin guy) did actually walk our box all the way with his Red Stripe gripped in his teeth. I guess that we still aren't ready for the box carrying case if that is how we turn a category in. Maybe he dropped one on our chicken...I'll go with that.

Second, to see the call heard round the bbq world. It's terrible and hard to watch...I felt like I had to minimize my window when my wife was in the room, like I was looking at something I shouldn't be. However, despite the effort (Tuffy stretching for the finish line and almost taking out the entire table) and how the decision was made...they didn't score the box as being "truly accepted". Justice prevailed, hearts were broken, weather was still perfect.

I thought my brother made a 3500 dollar mistake in Plant City by leaving his 5th and 6th rib connected, but Tuffy may have just topped the list. Not trying to pile on...just saying these things are happening all of the time and if not for that camera...we wouldn't have bbq gold to show Tuffy on our cell phones for years to come.

Sorry Tuffy...that's brutal, but I hope you would feel the same way. If nothing else, you will have a new KCBS rule named after you. You will be immortalized forever, like George Brett,

KCBS Rule 9.4.1.9: The Tuffy Exception
If a particpant lays a box in front of rep with the time being past acceptable time, it will be DQ'd. Participants puppy dog eyes and exhausted expressions shall not be viewed as cute. This is especially crucial for friends, grandparents, small children and drunks. They are all masters of their craft and do not negotiate with them...they all have been classically trained not to return to camp with a box.

As for the rep...it didn't look great and I'm sure she went around the corner and got a second opinion from another rep or similar and made the final call. I feel more sorry for her than anybody. She had to make that brutal call, she was not in thinking a participant is about to rhino (maybe gazelle) around the corner into this 8x8 room and tackle the table. Probably caught off guard as anybody would have been from watching the video.

The right team won this event. Cereal Grillers had the best score within all of the rules that we play by. No exceptions!

However, Whiskey Bent BBQ had the best food...the judges don't know what good chicken taste like...AGAIN!

Shake it off Tuffy and get out of Florida...with scores like the first three we don't want you down here anymore. Took all the prize money, trophies, beer and almost broke our turn-in facilities.:becky::becky::becky:

Must add smiley faces so that I don't get threats.


Thanks Brother...You can let me know this weekend all about those wonderful things you were thinking...heheh...You guys had a good show also... see you Friday...I'm cooking with Mike "Woodhouse" you know that will cause some bitchin...hehe

smokincracker
02-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Damnit, forgot to give a big shout out to my bud Jimmy who won the Governor's cup for a third time at Lakeland! Way to go man :becky:

Rubbby rub rub..my buddy.. Thanks
Cooking with Woodhouse again so lets do a few beers Friday night...If I get drunk it will get Mikey Reintardo all pissed off...hehehe... stir stir stir

SerialGriller
02-02-2011, 07:17 AM
Thanks alot Rick. ,,And a big congrats to you. What are the odds of GC and RGC coming from Yorktown, VA.! haha

warfrat
02-03-2011, 10:04 PM
Rubbby rub rub..my buddy.. Thanks
Cooking with Woodhouse again so lets do a few beers Friday night...If I get drunk it will get Mikey Reintardo all pissed off...hehehe... stir stir stir

we will be neighbors so stop by for a shot of American Honey...I wanna add fuel to that fire! :evil::heh::becky::thumb: