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boogiesnap
01-25-2011, 09:14 AM
hi everyone,
was browsing the snake river farms website and they suggested this as a competition pork cut.

can anyone provide info on pork collar? don't know what it is at all or if it would be KCBS legal.

thanks!

Ford
01-25-2011, 09:49 AM
Not a shoulder, butt or picnic so it's illegal. Besdies they ship at 4 lbs also not legal. Big thread over on Basso's about it a week or 2 ago. Apparnetly some folks have been cooking them.

Alexa RnQ
01-25-2011, 09:50 AM
Not legal.

From http://www.kcbs.us/pdf/KCBS-Rules-and-Regulations-2010.pdf :
Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic or Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.

boogiesnap
01-25-2011, 10:15 AM
yup, yup. of course.
i did know that, but....
thanks y'all.

Scottie
01-25-2011, 11:21 AM
When someone called up Snake River Farms, they did throw out a bunch of BBQ Teams that use them... Even a team that finished in the top for TOY standings... So just sayin...

A pork collar is illegal. Because it came from an area near the shoulder, does not make it part of the shoulder. That would be like saying you could use a ham, because it is attached to the hog. Or pork belly, etc....

I still like the idea of reps walking around at 10:00 am to inspect meat. Reps do this anyway to make sure everything is going well for cooks and to show them the official time.

dmprantz
01-25-2011, 11:30 AM
I still like the idea of reps walking around at 10:00 am to inspect meat.

Not to get too far off topic, but I see problems with this: If the meat is still in a cooker at 10:00, then you have to open the cooker and release heat to show it to the rep. If the meat is wrapped in celophane, foil, and a towel, and sitting in a warm cooler with three other pieces of meat on top of it, that's even more disruptive.

I agree that the rules should be enforced, but I don't like this particular method of doing it....just MHO.

dmp

carlyle
01-25-2011, 11:45 AM
Any one have some pictures of pork collar that meat inspectors can refer to?

Can you tell it is pork collar just by looking?

Scottie
01-25-2011, 11:57 AM
I'd rather to lose some heat on my meat... Besides you can still put the WHOLE butt or brisket back on and not break any rules, than to get beat by teams that are cheating... this whole pork thing from parting to using different cuts of pork are ridiculous. I go out there with a pork butt and want to kick someone's ass with a pork butt. Now if folks are breaking rules like parting and using a cut of meat that is not legal, I guess that just levels the field for all of those that can't cook pork and will bring guys that can cook pork back to their inability too cook the category?

The penalty of people using illegal meats is a bigger one for me than me losing a little heat by opening my meat for inspection. And trust me, you are not losing any heat... My pork sits for 4 hours before I turn it in and it will burn my hands if I don't have special gloves on... So that is not a very good reason to make sure that teams aren't cheating with pork collar. In my opinion of course...



Not to get too far off topic, but I see problems with this: If the meat is still in a cooker at 10:00, then you have to open the cooker and release heat to show it to the rep. If the meat is wrapped in celophane, foil, and a towel, and sitting in a warm cooler with three other pieces of meat on top of it, that's even more disruptive.

I agree that the rules should be enforced, but I don't like this particular method of doing it....just MHO.

dmp

dmprantz
01-25-2011, 12:38 PM
I think you mis-understood a little bit. I was not even bringing up the whole parting or returning to the cooker thing. I was just talking about disruptive behaviour of requiring I go through a second meat inspection right when I'm in the middle of dealing getting one or more competition meats off the cooker and another on, and that to show my completed meat to some one I'd have to break whatever holding environment I've created for it. Sure it's an obstacle that could be overcome like most any other, but why punish the good? For my money and opinion, I'd rather see stricter rules around the original meat inspection: Actually train the meat inspector to know what a butt looks like. Require receipts or case labels or pack labels showing what you are serving. I work in software development, and there are two opposing ways to tackle piracy in that field: One is the Microsoft way of make it so hard to do anything that people resent you for it. The other is the Oracle way of realizing that if some one's gonna steal your product, he's gonna find a way to do it. Allow any one to use your software, but make it known that if some one is found in violation of the rules around it, he will be sued. If some one really wanted to flaunt this collar rule, he'd still bring a butt for inspection, still throw it on the cooker to show the rep at 10am, and do whatever he wanted with his collar. Is it worth punishing every one else for that? Trust in Kharma man:)

Anyway, if you feel strongly, let's continue this some where else. Otherwise, let's just agree to disagree, eh?

dmp

Jorge
01-25-2011, 12:42 PM
Not to get too far off topic, but I see problems with this: If the meat is still in a cooker at 10:00, then you have to open the cooker and release heat to show it to the rep. If the meat is wrapped in celophane, foil, and a towel, and sitting in a warm cooler with three other pieces of meat on top of it, that's even more disruptive.

I agree that the rules should be enforced, but I don't like this particular method of doing it....just MHO.

dmp

If it's known that it's going to happen a cook can plan for it. Let the reps start, randomly at one end or the other, or the middle of the field and make the rounds.

It sounds excessive, but so does subbing a different cut of meat.

Scottie
01-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Collar roasts and parting can be consolidated into one inspection is my point. So I understood. I sure didn't mean in any way for this to go off in the pork parting debate...

Obstacle are only for the one's that don't cheat or that can follow the rules. Those that want to cheat are going to continue to try cheating and finding a edge... If you make it more difficult, it makes people think twice before cheating... Realistically, you are not going to lose anything by opening your cooker or opening your foil.

Jorge
01-25-2011, 12:58 PM
Collar roasts and parting can be consolidated into one inspection is my point. So I understood. I sure didn't mean in any way for this to go off in the pork parting debate...

Obstacle are only for the one's that don't cheat or that can follow the rules. Those that want to cheat are going to continue to try cheating and finding a edge... If you make it more difficult, it makes people think twice before cheating... Realistically, you are not going to lose anything by opening your cooker or opening your foil.

After a few minutes, of thinking about how to cheat, a 10 AM inspection solves nothing. A cook could pull illegal meat and place it in a hidden cooler, just as easily as they could hide it in a drink cooler during the initial meat inspection.

sitnfat
01-25-2011, 01:03 PM
I just wish I could cook pork that placed

roksmith
01-25-2011, 01:13 PM
I can see how folks may have accidentally used an illegal piece of meat. I believe this is the original wording from their website:

The origins of Berkshire Pork, Kurobuta, date back almost 300 years when legend has ... Kurobuta Pork Collar (petite Boston Butt) 1 (approx. 5 lbs.) collar from $39.00

From this description, one would think it's just a small pork butt.
We considered ordering their KCBS pack from them last year. It doesn't appear to be available any longer.
The only thing that kept us from ordering was the "approx. 5lbs" verbage. It told us that we might waste money if the chunk came in on the smaller side.
I guess I'm glad we didn't go for it. :)

Alexa RnQ
01-25-2011, 01:15 PM
The page where you have to click to order the pork collar specifically states that it is 4 lbs.

http://store.snakeriverfarms.com/american-kurobuta-pork/pork-collars/

Scottie
01-25-2011, 01:22 PM
It slows teams down... what if they made the inspection at 11:00, 11:30 or at 12:30, right before pork is to be turned in?? Let's face it. This is not a perfect sport for enforcing rules. But if you put up road blocks, it stops some from cheating... Will it stop everyone? No. But a society that is built on following the rules and specifics, it doesn't make sense not to do it...

After a few minutes, of thinking about how to cheat, a 10 AM inspection solves nothing. A cook could pull illegal meat and place it in a hidden cooler, just as easily as they could hide it in a drink cooler during the initial meat inspection.

Finney
01-25-2011, 01:34 PM
I think it really depends on the accuracy and use of their terminology.
The info below comes from official ECE document on pork cuts. I know we're not in Europe... but the cut below sounds like a butt to me.

Now I have no idea whether or not this is what Snake River is selling.
(Where are the buthers when you need them?)
================================================== ===============

Collar butt – Special Trim * 4245


Collar butt or butt – special trim is prepared from shoulder upper half bone in (Item 4059) by the removal of the ribs, thoracic, cervical vertebrae and the shoulder lower half. The collar butt is the dorsal portion remaining after the shoulder lower half has been removed. All bone and cartilage is removed. The skin is removed from the collar butt surface. A strip of fat is retained on the lateral surface of the cut running parallel to the dorsal edge the length of the collar butt. Specify the width and thickness of the strip of fat to be retained.

To be specified:
· Specify fat cover requirements
· Specify fat trim level
· Specify length of tail distance from eye of meat

*Trade descriptions can be shown as Butt or Collar Butt – Special Trim.

Ford
01-25-2011, 01:46 PM
IMHO inspections are not the answer. If it's made clear at the cooks meeting that a pork collar is illegal, then would people still use it? I don't think so. Now if somebody does use it then shame on them. Cheating to win just isn't part of this sport. Stretching the rules because it's not specifically stated may be considered cheating by some and not by others.

No way to stop parting or putting pork back on. Too easy to cheat if you really wanted. Bad rule. Cuts of meat - good rule. No microwave - good rule but with trailers, motorhomes, and ezup's with 4 sides down who know what is happening. Still a good rule. If people want to cheat they will. Some day they will slip up and end up out of the sport for 2 years with their record now in question just like the steroid boys of baseball.

And all you northerners need to take a vacation and come down to Florida and cook a contest just to relax.

boogiesnap
01-25-2011, 02:00 PM
yikes!
this wasn't my intention at all.

i was just unfamiliar with the cut "collar", and i glazed right over the 4#'s.

but, if what scottie said is true, about ToY teams using SRF collar, then...fark.

AZScott
01-25-2011, 03:44 PM
How does a pork collar cook differently? Is it an advantage? The only advantage I see is one would be paying for 4 #'s of Berkshire instead of 8-9 #'s. Hmmmm..... actually after googling some pictures it looks like it's the part of the butt w/ the money muscle and no bone. I'll stick with commercial pork since the Hampshire and Berk butt's I've cooked have been excessively fatty. Slices of MM with a thick vein of fat isn't appealing to too many people.

Dale P
01-25-2011, 04:46 PM
I just wish that the parting rule would be tossed out. We play by the rules but I say it is a silly rule.

Capn Kev
01-25-2011, 06:09 PM
One idea to solve things...keep meat in original packaging until the meat (and cut) has been inspected by a meat inspector. The meat inspector should also have some background in "meat". I guess there's no way to completely avoid someone from swapping out meat, but it might help.

Jeff Hughes
01-25-2011, 06:38 PM
I guess there's no way to completely avoid someone from swapping out meat, but it might help.

Probably not. Anyone could have a back up cooler.

I want to trim my meat at home. Many do.

drbbq
01-25-2011, 08:53 PM
But if the seller specifies it as a collar then it's not a butt or a picnic and besides it's not five pounds. Anybody who uses it is cheating. This kind of creative interpretation is a real problem.

I think it really depends on the accuracy and use of their terminology.
The info below comes from official ECE document on pork cuts. I know we're not in Europe... but the cut below sounds like a butt to me.

Now I have no idea whether or not this is what Snake River is selling.
(Where are the buthers when you need them?)
================================================== ===============

Collar butt – Special Trim * 4245


Collar butt or butt – special trim is prepared from shoulder upper half bone in (Item 4059) by the removal of the ribs, thoracic, cervical vertebrae and the shoulder lower half. The collar butt is the dorsal portion remaining after the shoulder lower half has been removed. All bone and cartilage is removed. The skin is removed from the collar butt surface. A strip of fat is retained on the lateral surface of the cut running parallel to the dorsal edge the length of the collar butt. Specify the width and thickness of the strip of fat to be retained.

To be specified:
· Specify fat cover requirements
· Specify fat trim level
· Specify length of tail distance from eye of meat

*Trade descriptions can be shown as Butt or Collar Butt – Special Trim.

Finney
01-25-2011, 11:22 PM
But if the seller specifies it as a collar then it's not a butt or a picnic and besides it's not five pounds. Anybody who uses it is cheating. This kind of creative interpretation is a real problem.

I'm not even talking about the under 5 lbs thing... that can't be argued... it's either 5lbs (+) or it isn't.

But to say that a label has to say "boston butt" ("picnic", or "whole shoulder") specifically is a bunch of whoey. I've bought butts and picnics that just said "pork shoulder" on the labels, others (butts) have said "Boston blade roast" (this one says boston, but not butt) or "pork shoulder - butt" (this one says butt, but not boston).
I've also bought whole shoulders that also said "pork shoulder". Did it need to specify 'whole'? Lots of meat cut names change by region. You should go into the country with some 'good ole boys' and help slaughter hogs and hear what they are calling different cuts.

As I said in the post above, I have know idea what SRF is selling. I've never bought one from them. So I'm not saying what they are selling is legal.

All I'm saying is from the description of what a "collar butt" (above), that it would appear that it should be legal (if over 5 lbs) because it is just a trimmed up upper shoulder just like a "boston butt". It is part of the shoulder, not meat that is from near the shoulder.

juicybuttsbbq
01-25-2011, 11:40 PM
People Cheat????? Well Son Of A $%^&*@,, What is this Sport Coming Too

roksmith
01-26-2011, 06:57 AM
I do not plan on using them, BUT.
I would argue that the only thing that makes them illegal would be that they are under 5 lbs. You get a hold of a "pork collar" according to the description above and it's over 5 lbs it is perfectly legal. Aside from it being the very definition of a bone out boston butt, if it is any part of a whole shoulder that weighs at least 5 pounds, it's legal.
We cannot "part", but we certainly can trim...as much as we want as long as we stay above 5 lbs.
Doesn't matter who does the trimming.. you or the butcher.. if it was a legal piece of meat to start with and you did nothing illegal to it.. it's still legal.
It is neither outside the letter or spirit of the rule.
What is stamped on a package does not make a piece of meat illegal if the cut inside it is legal.

As above.. I don't know exactly what SRF is selling, but if it conforms to the above description, it's only illegal because of weight.

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 07:26 AM
Any one have some pictures of pork collar that meat inspectors can refer to?

Can you tell it is pork collar just by looking?

You would be better off doing training yourself like our government will do when they train the secret service when looking for counterfeit paper money. Study the real thing and get to know it and ask questions to the owner and you (as a rep) have the right to be explained all the "why's" a piece of meat is cut the way it is to quarntee it is a butt, picnic, or whole shoulder.

drbbq
01-26-2011, 07:57 AM
I guess we just need some more rules to clear this up either way because I see it clearly but a good amount of others don't see it the same way so it must be confusing as written.

Jorge
01-26-2011, 08:23 AM
The rules clearly specify the legal cuts. At no point does it say "or parts thereof" or anything like that. You can cook Boston Butt, Whole Shoulder, or Picnic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brewmaster
01-26-2011, 09:10 AM
Has anyone cooked this cut of meat?

If I set aside the fact that anyone using this cut of meat is cheating, is this really a better cut of meat? Do I have a legitimate concern that someone competing against me has an advantage?

Cheers,
Nate

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 09:11 AM
I'm not trying to be snarky, but when I buy my competition meats from Schnuck's or Sam's, they are labeled by IBP as "Pork Butts." Since they are not labled as a Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder, can I compete with those? If not, does it become legal again if the butcher ignores the box and calls them Boston Butts in a celophane pack? A different butcher of mine in St. Louis would label the picnics as callie roasts. Does that instantly disqualify the cut of meat from KCBS competition? My father-in-law buys his competition pork roasts (Swift I think) that are called Shoulder Blade Roasts I think. Are those not legal? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or even talk about the SRF product, but is legality defined by the name applied to the meat or the meat itself? FWIW, MBN/MIM define the legal shoulder piece by the muscles and bones included, not by the packing name, though they do specifically exclude butts and picnics while including hams.

Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....

dmp

Alexa RnQ
01-26-2011, 09:29 AM
Apparently, rules only keep honest people honest.

And as a very smart cop in California told me, "You don't figure out how to be sneaky and then only do it the once."

Jorge
01-26-2011, 09:59 AM
I'm not trying to be snarky, but when I buy my competition meats from Schnuck's or Sam's, they are labeled by IBP as "Pork Butts." Since they are not labled as a Boston Butt, Picnic, or whole shoulder, can I compete with those? If not, does it become legal again if the butcher ignores the box and calls them Boston Butts in a celophane pack? A different butcher of mine in St. Louis would label the picnics as callie roasts. Does that instantly disqualify the cut of meat from KCBS competition? My father-in-law buys his competition pork roasts (Swift I think) that are called Shoulder Blade Roasts I think. Are those not legal? Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk or even talk about the SRF product, but is legality defined by the name applied to the meat or the meat itself? FWIW, MBN/MIM define the legal shoulder piece by the muscles and bones included, not by the packing name, though they do specifically exclude butts and picnics while including hams.

Far be it from me to think we should change the rules in any way, shape, or form because people would accuse me of trying to complicate things, but when I pointed out last year that the FEC100 is clearly in violation of the letter of the KCBS rules by having an electric heating element which can turn on during cooking, people here mentioned an undocumented "decision" by the board and referred to the sanity of reps. If you publically state your belief that the KCBS rules are bendable and pliable by the "good common sense" of reps in one area, it makes you look like a total hypocrite in my eyes to say that another part of the rules must be quoted and followed to the letter. This is not meant for Jorge, or any one else on in particular, just point it out....

dmp

If you are getting the same cut of meat, that is clearly allowed under the existing rules I see no issue. You would be competing under the rules that exist. My understanding is that the collar meat IS a different cut. That makes it illegal whether it weighs 5 lbs. before cooking or not.

In the case of the FEC 100 the language in rule 6 allows for all of the different elements that make the FEC work. The discussion about the hot rod determined that the heat given off was insufficient to cook and as a result did not violate the rules as they are written.

The rules, in my opinion, are pretty clear about what's allowed. I'm more concerned about those that will choose to use a surgeon's precision to disect them.

The rules state what is permitted in terms of legal cuts of pork. If we want to expand the rule to what isn't permitted then I need to get a new appliance dolly to cart the thing around. In my opinion the issue isn't about inadequate rules or verbage; but about people looking for away around the rules to do something that isn't legal. I'm sure there are some people that may have cooked a collar not knowing that they were breaking the rules.....and I'm certain that there were others that knew exactly what they were doing and CHOSE to do it anyway. On a personal level, I'm looking forward to seeing somebody get caught, and having to explain away their sudden departure from competition BBQ.

boogiesnap
01-26-2011, 10:08 AM
dmp, you make a good point.
in another thread regarding gas and electric being allowed i sited machines such as the FEC's which clearly shouldn't be, but are, and thus, gas and electric should be allowed as well.

i have nothing wrong with them personally, just saying.

me, i';ll just stick to 6-8# bone in boston butt. not parted.

boogiesnap
01-26-2011, 10:11 AM
jorge, i wasn't aware of that portion of the FEC debate.

that makes it pretty clear as to WHY they are allowed.
that is dissecting the rules a bit tho, no?

Juggy D Beerman
01-26-2011, 10:12 AM
Any one have some pictures of pork collar that meat inspectors can refer to?

Can you tell it is pork collar just by looking?

I thought I knew my piggy parts, but this looks like a boneless butt to me.

Now can someone tell me if the what is referred to as cushion meat is also known as collar meat?

Porters,

Juggy

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 10:16 AM
Fair enough, and I agree that if a cut of meat is not permitted, then it is not permitted, period, but if some one calls something that would otherwise be allowed a "collar," that name alone does not invalidate the entry simply because it was not labled as a "Boston Butt, Picnic, or Whole Shoulder."

As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!

dmp

Scottie
01-26-2011, 10:48 AM
As for rule 6 and the FEC100, this could be argued until we are all blue in the face, but the rule says "Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters, provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking device." There is no minimum level of heat required, just like there is no maximum level of loin defined in the schoulder section. In at least some models of FEC100 and Traeger grills, an electric fire starter will turn on if the fire goes out. If they get a pass because of the low BTU output of those starters, that's fine, and I'm not arguing the intent nor the spirit of the rule, but I can't see how a reasonable person could deny that it is an exception if not violation to the letter of the rule. Goose, gander, and all that!

dmp


Having cooked on FE's my entire career. I will tell you this. If you have to restart your pit, you take your meat out and light the fire. I prefer using a MAPP torch because it lights the fire faster. I also let my neighbors know what I am doing so there is never a question of what I was doing. This whole issue has been brought before the BOD on numerous times and each time they rule the exact same way. I believe the last time these issues were brought up was during the time of having the BOD of disect every rule that competitiors would bring up. Instead of reading around a rule, they should follow the rule. Plain and simple.

If you do not like a rule, bring it to the Rules Committee and they will present it. I can tell you that you are beating a dead horse on the FEC issue.

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 10:55 AM
That's a good plan on using the MAPP torch and informing your neighbors Scottie. Really above board! I know it's a dead horse, and I am not now, nor have I ever really tried to get FECs deemed illegal. My whole point in bringing it up is that people were quoting the rules to declare that something which is labled "collar" illegal because it is not labled one of the three cuts listed in the rules. Quoting the rules alone does not end the discussion, because there can always be exceptions which do not follow them, as pointed out here.

dmp

ique
01-26-2011, 10:59 AM
Its actually a more accurate name for the cut we all know as boston butt. And that may very well be all it is, another name for the same cut. I've ordered berkshire butts before (not from SRF) that were butchered differently and looked a lot like the picture a few posts up. Doesnt matter what they call it, if it is the upper part of the front shoulder and over 5lbs should be legal.

Jorge
01-26-2011, 11:13 AM
That's a good plan on using the MAPP torch and informing your neighbors Scottie. Really above board! I know it's a dead horse, and I am not now, nor have I ever really tried to get FECs deemed illegal. My whole point in bringing it up is that people were quoting the rules to declare that something which is labled "collar" illegal because it is not labled one of the three cuts listed in the rules. Quoting the rules alone does not end the discussion, because there can always be exceptions which do not follow them, as pointed out here.

dmp

I think that it's reasonable to expect someone that has a done a contest or two, to be able to determine what cut of meat they are purchasing and being sure that it is either legal or not regardless of what the label says.

I rely on the rules, because that is what everyone is allegedly supposed to be following.

I understand your intent. I also understand that there are clearly people that have gone out of their way to gain some advantage, and are not within the rules as they are currently written.

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 11:32 AM
Just thinking out loud on the FEC dead horse: "Propane or electric" in the third sentence probably refers to the previous sentence which says "Gas and electric heat sources." I would probably think it's a lot less of a variance if they changed the wording of the third sentence to also read "Gas and electric heat sources." Some people hate change and see no reason to alter the rules, but in my detail oriented mind, that makes it a bit clearer that a "starter" which does not produce noticable "heat" is okay. I can also see how and why the board rules the way it does and FECs are allowed...okay, enough kicking. It really wasn't the point to begin with.

dmp

Juggy D Beerman
01-26-2011, 12:04 PM
I think that it's reasonable to expect someone that has a done a contest or two, to be able to determine what cut of meat they are purchasing and being sure that it is either legal or not regardless of what the label says.

Yo Jorge, Before I posted the above picture with the two pork collars, I would have agreed with your statement. Those two pieces of meat look just like boneless butts to me and I have butchered many a hog and cooked many a contest. I am sure that even an experienced contest meat inspector would look at those two pieces of meat and passed them for inspection.

With all these big money contest that are up and coming, maybe it is time for the KCBS to start tagging meats as they do at the HLSR.

Porters,

Juggy

landarc
01-26-2011, 01:14 PM
I do not compete and have no plans to either, but, I was intrigued that somehow collars would be an advantage in cooking for a competition. Got me to thinking it might be a better cut to cook at home. I started looking into it and from what I can gather, it is just the upper portion of the whole shoulder cut and is the part of the shoulder from the blade bone upwards to the top of the spine. It appears to be both part of the whole shoulder and at least, in part, a portion of the whole Boston Butt cut. Seems that in terms of description it absolutely meets the requirements for competition, it also seems to offer no real advantage for cooking at home from a normal butt.

swamprb
01-26-2011, 01:15 PM
I've cooked them a few times, but never turned them in at a competition, and they were all 5lbs or over.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_2011.jpg

Berkshire Kurobuta Collar Trim Butts as they were labeled on the cases. Not from SRF, but somewhere out of Iowa, my butcher calls them CT Butts and they sell a lot of them to restaurants in the Seattle area.

Here is a pic of them on the Right WSM in relation to the 8lb bone in Farmland butts on the Left.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_2015.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/IMG_2034.jpg

Bill at Select Gourmet Foods trims and ties them into roasts and they get sliced like a Pork Loin.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/IMG_2045.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/IMG_2046.jpg

Here we have some that got trimmed and stuffed in a pigs gut.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2910.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2911.jpg

And more that got ground into Sausage

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2933.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2936.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2939.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2944.jpg

They shrink up but keep their shape, I was under the impression they were like the money muscle cut off the Butt, at least that is what I was led to believe . It is great tasting pork, but I think they were @ $3.99 lb and it just didn't WOW us enough to continue using.

When we do our monthly BBQ Roadshow, I'll try to get some pics of the Butts on the scale, the Packers name, and labels for show.

If you go to the Snake River Farms site they are listed in the BBQ Package, I'm sure they won't be happy to learn they won't be flying out the door anytime soon. Maybe not!
http://store.snakeriverfarms.com/competitive-bbq-collection/

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 02:55 PM
To completely clear up what a pork butt is or a company cutting their version of a pork butt need to be standardized like the meat industry has done. I believe KCBS needs to implement the items legal for cooking the same as the American Meat Producers have.Example:

Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications

IMPS are a series of meat product specifications maintained by AMS. They are developed as voluntary consensus specifications. Large volume purchasers such as Federal, State and Local Government agencies, schools, restaurants, hotels, and other food service users reference the IMPS for procuring meat products.


The IMPS are composed of the following series:

General Requirements - PDF file
Quality Assurance Provisions - PDF file
100 Fresh Beef - PDF file updated March 19, 2010
200 Fresh Lamb and Mutton - PDF file
300 Fresh Veal and Calf - PDF file
400 Fresh Pork - PDF file updated November 4, 2009
500 Cured, Cured and Smoked, Cooked Pork Products - PDF file
600 Cured, Dried and Smoked Beef Products - PDF file
700 Variety Meats and Edible By-Products - PDF file
800 Sausage Products - PDF file
11 Fresh Goat - PDF file


And under each species of animals like 400 pork the butt is number for Bone in is 406, boneless is 406a, and shoulder blade steak is 1406.

drbbq
01-26-2011, 03:23 PM
And under each species of animals like 400 pork the butt is number for Bone in is 406, boneless is 406a, and shoulder blade steak is 1406.

Hey David,
Is there a number for anything called collar?

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 03:35 PM
The only reference I see to a collar has to do with the skin on either the shoulder (404) or the ham (401).

Slamdunkpro
01-26-2011, 04:34 PM
Hey David,
Is there a number for anything called collar?
That's the issue with IMPS numbers - IMPS only designates primal cuts. A "collar" seems to a sub cut of an IMPS 406 butt.

Jorge
01-26-2011, 04:44 PM
Yo Jorge, Before I posted the above picture with the two pork collars, I would have agreed with your statement. Those two pieces of meat look just like boneless butts to me and I have butchered many a hog and cooked many a contest. I am sure that even an experienced contest meat inspector would look at those two pieces of meat and passed them for inspection.

With all these big money contest that are up and coming, maybe it is time for the KCBS to start tagging meats as they do at the HLSR.

Porters,

Juggy

Fair points. Can't wait to see the process when a cook has 24 thighs they plan to cook:laugh:

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 05:27 PM
That's the issue with IMPS numbers - IMPS only designates primal cuts.

IMPS goes down to the sub-primal level. For instance in beef, brisket is a primal while point and flat are subprimals. My understanding with swine, having far fewer primals, the entire shoulder is a primal, with butt and picnic being sub-primals.

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 05:41 PM
Hey David,
Is there a number for anything called collar?

No there is not.

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 05:45 PM
That's the issue with IMPS numbers - IMPS only designates primal cuts. A "collar" seems to a sub cut of an IMPS 406 butt.

No and Yes. all sub primal cuts are recognized in these numbers and its not recognized. Just like the rules say butt, shoulder, and picnic. Not sub primal called pork steak, country style ribs, cushion meat, etc.

Here is the way a butt is described to be cut and still allowed to be called a butt. Any other way its not a butt:
Shoulder
The shoulder is separated from the side by a straight cut that is approximately perpendicular to the length of the side. The cut shall be made posterior to (so as not to expose) the elbow, but not more than 1.0 inch (2.5 cm) from the tip of the elbow. The outer tip of the subscapularis muscle shall not extend past the dorsal edge of the base of the medial ridge of the blade bone. The foot shall be excluded at or slightly above the upper knee joint by a straight cut approximately perpendicular to the shank bones. The jowl shall be excluded by a straight cut approximately parallel with the loin side which is anterior to, but not more than 1.0 inch (2.5 cm) from the innermost curvature of the ear dip. The neck bones, ribs, breast bones, associated cartilage and breast flap (through the major crease) shall also be excluded. The fat and skin shall be beveled to meet the lean on the dorsal edge. The exterior fat thickness at the dorsal skin edge, measured at the center of the cut, shall not exceed that indicated in the schedule shown.

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 05:54 PM
Here is a complete list of numbers and brief description:

400 Carcass
400A Whole Roasting Pig
401 Leg (Fresh Ham)
401A Leg (Fresh Ham), Short Shank
401C Leg (Fresh Ham), Semi Boneless
402 Leg (Fresh Ham), Skinned
402A Leg (Fresh Ham), Skinned, Short Shank
402B Leg (Fresh Ham), Boneless
402C Leg (Fresh Ham), Boneless, Short Shank, Trimmed
402D Leg (Fresh Ham), Outside
402E Leg (Fresh Ham), Outside, Trimmed, Shank Remo
402F Leg (Fresh Ham), Inside 3-down
402G Leg (Fresh Ham), TBS, 3-Way, Boneless
403 Shoulder
403B Shoulder, Outside
403C Shoulder, Inside -
404 Shoulder, Skinned
405 Shoulder, Picnic
405A Shoulder, Picnic, Boneless
405B Shoulder, Picnic, Cushion, Boneless Amount as Specified
406 Shoulder, Boston Butt, Bone In -
406A Shoulder, Boston Butt, Boneless
406B Shoulder, Boston Butt, Boneless, Special
407 Shoulder Butt, Cellar Trimmed, Boneless
408 Belly
409 Belly, Skinless
409A Belly, Single Ribbed, Skinless
409B Belly, Center-Cut, Skinless
410 Loin, Bone In
411 Loin, Bone In, Bladeless
412 Loin, Bone In, Center-Cut 8 Ribs
412A Loin, Bone In, Center-Cut, 8 Ribs, Chine Bone Off
412B Loin, Boneless, Center-Cut, 8 Ribs
412C Loin, Bone In, Center-Cut, 11 Ribs
412D Loin, Bone In, Center-Cut, 11 Ribs, Chine Bone Off
412E Loin, Boneless, Center-Cut, 11 Ribs
413 Loin, Boneless
413A Loin, Boneless, Roast
413B Loin, Boneless, Special
414 Loin, Canadian Back
415 Tenderloin
415A Tenderloin, Side Muscle Off
416 Spareribs
416A Spareribs, St. Louis Style
416B Spareribs, Brisket Bones
416C Spareribs, Breast Off
416D Breast Bones under-1
417 Shoulder Hocks -
417A Leg (Fresh Ham) Hocks
418 Trimmings
420 Pig's Feet, Front
421 Neck Bones

423 Loin, Country-Style Ribs
422 Loin, Back Ribs
435B Pork for Kabobs
496 Ground Pork

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 06:04 PM
You know, where Jorge may be going, and I'll take it regardless, I think the rules as they sit are pretty sound. They describe one of three cuts of meat which are given industry standard names which qualify for the prok category, and if you wanna get technical, they all really come from the same primal. Once you have the cut, you can trim away as much as you want, and still use it as long as it stays at or over 5 lb pre-cooked weight. If whatever you have is not given the same name, but falls within a subset of the whole shoulder, it should be legal. If my butcher sold Boston butts as "Fred," they'd still meet the IMPS definition of a bitt and be legal, right? Since collar isn't defined as something else, it could very well be the same thing as a Boston butt. As long as it does not include meat outside of the shoulder primal, I think it's fine...if you can get them to ship you one over 5 lb.

dmp

White Dog BBQ
01-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Out of curiosity, which brisket cut is the one commonly referred to as "packers"? Is it 118, 119 or 120? My guess is 119, but I'm not sure.

Erik

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 06:11 PM
I believe it's 120. 119 would have fat on both sides.

Slamdunkpro
01-26-2011, 07:26 PM
Out of curiosity, which brisket cut is the one commonly referred to as "packers"? Is it 118, 119 or 120? My guess is 119, but I'm not sure.

Erik

120 is a "packer" both the flat and the point with the deckle removed
118 is a packer with the deckle left on
120a is just the flat
120b is only the point

Jeff Hughes
01-26-2011, 07:33 PM
I am sure I have misunderstood, but I thought the deckle and the point are the same thing....

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Common misconception. Some people call the point the deckle, but it's actually a layer of hard fat touching the flat which is removed by the packer.

dmp

Butcher BBQ
01-26-2011, 07:46 PM
Common misconception. Some people call the point the deckle, but it's actually a layer of hard fat touching the flat which is removed by the packer.

dmp

The deckle is the muscle not fat. Not sure if that is what you were saying. Its called the deckle muscle.

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 07:51 PM
You're right. It's a muscle and fat.

dmp

Jeff Hughes
01-26-2011, 08:09 PM
Is the muscle the point?

dmprantz
01-26-2011, 08:13 PM
No. The flat is the pectoralis profundi. The point is the pectoralis superficialis. The deckle is the intercostales interni and surounding fat. Put differently, the brisket is the pecs, and the deckle is intercostal muscle...

dmp

smokincracker
01-26-2011, 08:19 PM
I got my hands on one of these fancy pork collars to see what all the fuss was about. What it looks like to me is the dark meat at the end of the loin..(You know the best part of a whole loin) well this piece won’t work for center cut pork chops or bone in chops because it makes the damn things look funky. This piece looks to stay attached to the upper half of the butt…Looks to me that it’s a way for the butcher to get creative and include another big arse money muscle to the shoulder….Yeh if you want to cheat go ahead bring it on. I would be supprised if any of the reps I’ve seen could tell the diff…see you all in Lakeland good luck with your pork collars..hahah Yeh I think if you use this cut of meat then your cheating...O and if you use an FE just disconnect the starter...easy fix for the whinners....

ique
01-26-2011, 08:32 PM
After reading all this I think I'll stick with the Rest. Depot butt two-pack

drbbq
01-26-2011, 08:40 PM
I got my hands on one of these fancy pork collars to see what all the fuss was about. What it looks like to me is the dark meat at the end of the loin..(You know the best part of a whole loin) well this piece won’t work for center cut pork chops or bone in chops because it makes the damn things look funky. This piece looks to stay attached to the upper half of the butt…Looks to me that it’s a way for the butcher to get creative and include another big arse money muscle to the shoulder….Yeh if you want to cheat go ahead bring it on. I would be supprised if any of the reps I’ve seen could tell the diff…see you all in Lakeland good luck with your pork collars..hahah Yeh I think if you use this cut of meat then your cheating...O and if you use an FE just disconnect the starter...easy fix for the whinners....

Bring that thing to Lakeland and let's eat it!

JD McGee
01-26-2011, 08:52 PM
After reading all this I think I'll stick with the Rest. Depot butt two-pack

Costco two pack for me! :becky: Fyi...more "Pork Collar" pics... ***CLICK*** (http://www.google.com/images?q=pork+collar+picture&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&rlz=1I7GGIE_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=as5ATeH0BY7ksQPDl525Cg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQsAQwAA&biw=1259&bih=868)

boogiesnap
01-26-2011, 09:01 PM
After reading all this I think I'll stick with the Rest. Depot butt two-pack

i agree 100%, BUT,

i ran across a pic of y'all building a pork box, and i aint seen no MM from RD look like that!

Plowboy
01-26-2011, 10:22 PM
i agree 100%, BUT,

i ran across a pic of y'all building a pork box, and i aint seen no MM from RD look like that!

I regularly get 20-22lb 2 packs of bone in pork buts from RD. Works for me.

I always considered cushion meat as something else. :becky:

Bunny
01-27-2011, 12:00 AM
Yo Jorge, Before I posted the above picture with the two pork collars, I would have agreed with your statement. Those two pieces of meat look just like boneless butts to me and I have butchered many a hog and cooked many a contest. I am sure that even an experienced contest meat inspector would look at those two pieces of meat and passed them for inspection.

With all these big money contest that are up and coming, maybe it is time for the KCBS to start tagging meats as they do at the HLSR.

Porters,

Juggy

This is going to be difficult for reps. How many bad calls will be made on this (or) have already?!:mad:

Bunny
01-27-2011, 12:06 AM
The worst part is how do we recognize it once it is in the 9 x 9?:mad:

HoDeDo
01-27-2011, 12:47 AM
So based on the list David provide is a 406b or 407 a "Collar"... ? IS it something we can decern in a meat inspection?
Thanks for the input cracker... it makes more sense now, since I have never seen one of these collar roasts. Just heard about them. I'm too cheap to buy meat from SRF LOL.

I am fine whipping the arse of anyone cooking $3.99 pork collar with my $1.59 butts from RD or Sams.

Bring the cheaters, I feel like I am winning my share and the cooks I care about beating I know aren't cheating... It's heads up every week.

Bottom line is I'm gonna follow the rules. If that means a new rule about inspection at 10 am is needed, to deal with cheaters, so be it...I will follow that too... just like the silly spin on the parting rule. Is it needed... I think the "interpretation" is excessive, but I ensure I follow it.

Time to start cooking!!!

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 12:55 AM
So based on the list David provide is a 406b or 407 a "Collar"... ? IS it something we can decern in a meat inspection?
Thanks for the input cracker... it makes more sense now, since I have never seen one of these collar roasts. Just heard about them. I'm too cheap to buy meat from SRF LOL.

I am fine whipping the arse of anyone cooking $3.99 pork collar with my $1.59 butts from RD or Sams.

Bring the cheaters, I feel like I am winning my share and the cooks I care about beating I know aren't cheating... It's heads up every week.

Bottom line is I'm gonna follow the rules. If that means a new rule about inspection at 10 am is needed, to deal with cheaters, so be it...I will follow that too... just like the silly spin on the parting rule. Is it needed... I think the "interpretation" is excessive, but I ensure I follow it.

Time to start cooking!!!

Agreed. I have no problems with letting an official into the trailer, cooker, cooler, or Cambro anytime they want. Nothing to hide.

Finney
01-27-2011, 07:10 AM
So based on the list David provide is a 406b or 407 a "Collar"... ?

But if it is one of those... Then it's legal (if 5lbs or over). Because they are part of Item No. 406 - Pork Shoulder, Boston Butt, Bone-In.
406b even says its a Boston Butt....

:pop2::pop2::pop2:

roksmith
01-27-2011, 07:28 AM
I gotta say.. I agree. IF the pork collar/collar butt/petite boston butt is a trimmed boston butt it's perfectly legal.
We use full sized Boston Butts and don't even trim much, but I would have zero heartache is someone wanted to use one.
If the cut comes from somewhere else, other than the butt end of a shoulder, then it would be illegal.

Would be nice if we could get some input from a board member.

swamprb
01-27-2011, 08:16 AM
OK..so I go to my meat supplier and he offers me these boneless Berkshire pork butts, I've never seen anything like them before and I say sure, I'll give them a try. I say they have to be 5 pounds and get them weighed to be legal. Show up at the comp, the meats are inspected and the meats get cooked. Am I considered a cheater?

If the packing labels cleary say Collar Trim Pork Butt, they are sold in the butcher case as CT or "close trim" pork roasts, and you are told its a butt, would you have any reason as a consumer to even question that?
There are so many friggin' cuts the supermarkets bombard us with its crazy. First time I saw Cushion meat, I asked what cut it was they couldn't tell me, only that the teriyaki joints used it in stir fry!

The Snake River Korobuta Pork Collars in the BBQ Collection "that are a favorite of competitive barbecuers" are 4 lbs for $35 and I would say that anyone knowingly using these in competition are not playing it straight, but it looks like its been happening for awhile.
I don't use SRF meats and don't have any plans to use the CT Butts for comps anyway.

roksmith
01-27-2011, 08:44 AM
If they are under 5lbs, they are definately illegal.
I'm not quite sure why they go thru the extra trimming and bone removal and then advertise them as for BBQ comps. Seems like it would be easier for all involved to not trim them, leave the bone in and just call them pork butts. There would be no question then.
I only seem to see them refered to as "Collar" when they are from Berkies.. maybe someone who raises or processes Berkies could shed some light.

Scottie
01-27-2011, 09:47 AM
I know one thing... not sure if they are still giving out the info now. But if you called SRF a couple of weeks ago, they rolled down the list of teams using them. Would it be wrong to ask the reps to inspect their meat if I compete aganst the? The competitor in me could care less because I'll whip your ass with my IBP pork butts. But there is no room for cheating. And that is all that this is.

Jorge
01-27-2011, 09:50 AM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker.There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.

Earlier I believed that it would be fairly simple for a rep inspecting meat to spot a collar that somebody may have mistakenly purchased. After seeing some additional pictures yesterday, and this morning, I'm not so sure and I agree with Bunny that it's a very tough spot for the reps to be in!

The rules and, more importantly, their intent are pretty clear to me. They exist, as written, to create a level playing field for ALL competitors. When folks start deciding that something is legal, because it isn't expressly prohibited, Pandora's Box is wide open.

EDIT: I can't wait for the day when teams start adding litigators to the lineup, and we are a lot closer to that point than many of you may believe.....allegedly.

Jacked UP BBQ
01-27-2011, 10:06 AM
Now if you use pork collar, can you part it and put it back on the smoker? :-P

ique
01-27-2011, 10:07 AM
There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.

But when I trim my 9lb IBP butt down to 6lbs isnt that a portion thereof?

roksmith
01-27-2011, 10:31 AM
Nope.. it's trimmed..and legal.
It's no different than trimming a brisket flat down to fit in the box prior to cooking.
At that point, it is no longer a flat, but a portion of the flat....and perfectly legal.

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 10:31 AM
There is the rule as it exists today. "Whole Shoulder", "Boston Butt", "Picnic". All three are clearly legal. The rule goes on to say that they may be cooked either "bone in" or "bone out". Nowhere does the rule say "..or portions thereof..." or anything similar.


I agree, but isn't it understood that meat can be trimmed as the cook sees fit, as long as it is not trimmed under 5 lb? I think I've heard ppl say if you can find a 5 lb money muscle, use it, haven't I? Don't some teams trim the MM almost all the way off, but leave it connected so it is still a single "piece" of meat? Is it different to trim your own meat or to have your butcher/packer do it? Again, as long as it starts with the whole shoulder and gets cut down, I think it's just trimming, but if it includes more meat that the IMPS definition of a Shoulder, then it's illegal.

I think Dr. BBQ should weigh in on this one! I saw him on TV where a team broke down a pork loin during a time that they weren't supposed to. Guy brought up a good point that you can buy your meat that way from the butcher, so is it worth a DQ or just a minor point deduction. Granted, TV tail gaiting is not KCBS, but it was a valid point, and isn't this the reverse? If I can legally do it after I buy it, before I show up for inspection, can I not ask my butcher to do it for me?

dmp

Alexa RnQ
01-27-2011, 10:33 AM
Nope.. it's trimmed..and legal.
It's no different than trimming a brisket flat down to fit in the box prior to cooking.
At that point, it is no longer a flat, but a portion of the flat....and perfectly legal.
Comparing it to brisket is somewhat disingenuous, because there are no weight requirements in the rules for brisket.

Jorge
01-27-2011, 10:37 AM
But when I trim my 9lb IBP butt down to 6lbs isnt that a portion thereof?

Absolutely. Being the honest cook, that I know you to be, I'd be confident that the 6 lb. piece of pork inspected was a butt.

That's a far cry, from someone trimming up a Shoulder for 6 lbs. of meat. I've yet to see a definitive description of what a pork collar actually is; that comes from a recognized authority.

If competition BBQ has come to the point that we are going to start splitting hairs that fine, it's in trouble.

roksmith
01-27-2011, 10:37 AM
So if the trimmed butt is still over 5lbs, then there is no issue ?

drbbq
01-27-2011, 10:51 AM
I think Dr. BBQ should weigh in on this one! I saw him on TV where a team broke down a pork loin during a time that they weren't supposed to. Guy brought up a good point that you can buy your meat that way from the butcher, so is it worth a DQ or just a minor point deduction. Granted, TV tail gaiting is not KCBS, but it was a valid point, and isn't this the reverse? If I can legally do it after I buy it, before I show up for inspection, can I not ask my butcher to do it for me?

dmp


That was a completely different deal. There was a guy there from the National Restaurant Association who'd written the rules and was responsible for enforcing them. We were just discussing it for TV.

But I do think I know the intent because I was actively cooking when the rule was changed from "any pork" to butt, picnic, etc. KCBS was growing and they wanted to clean up the rules and they also wanted to make it so the food was real BBQ and butts etc fit the bill.
The open poultry category was changed to chicken at that time as well.

roksmith
01-27-2011, 10:52 AM
Here is a reference document from the European Trade Commission on Meat Standardization.
http://www.unece.org/trade/agr/meetings/ge.11/2005/2005_05_a01_Rev01e.pdf
It says that the collar butt and butt are interchangable and both are names for the Upper Shoulder(Boston Butt).

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 10:55 AM
That was a completely different deal. There was a guy there from the National Restaurant Association who'd written the rules and was responsible for enforcing them. We were just discussing it for TV.

Fair enough. I obviously wasn't there, and it wasn't KCBS anyway. I just thought that the point Guy raised about it not being something the butcher could have done for them interesting. This reminds me of that because a big part of what we are talking about, does it matter if you trim the meat or the butcher does?

dmp

roksmith
01-27-2011, 10:56 AM
How could it? You're not required to have untrimmed meat at inspection time.

Juggy D Beerman
01-27-2011, 11:01 AM
Once again, I will tell my version of how the pork parting rule evolved. (Bunny, if you are reading this, please correct me if I am mistaken. I know you and Rich were around in 1993 when the pork rule was changed.)

Prior to 1993, the KCBS had little restrictions on what could be submitted as a pork entry. Country-style ribs from the loin were allowed to be submitted as a rib entry. They were also allowed as a pork entry as long as you had not submitted them as your rib entry. ANY cut of pork was allowed to be submitted as long as the cut was not spare or back ribs. This meant loin cuts, tenderloin, pork steak, economy style (shoulder cut) ribs, ham steaks, ham and any other pork cut could be submitted.

When the rule was changed to pork shoulder/Boston butt/picnic weighing at least five pounds, there were teams trying to circumvent this rule. Once the meat was inspected, some teams would cut the shoulder into smaller cuts such as economy style ribs or pork steaks. This brought about the clause about the parting rule that some people think makes no sense.

Stouts,

Juggy

Finney
01-27-2011, 11:20 AM
I've yet to see a definitive description of what a pork collar actually is; that comes from a recognized authority.


Your statement (even before you posted it) is the exact reason I keep posting to this thread.
Everyone was so quick to say that it is illegal without knowing what one was...

All of Europe and Australia (and I'm sure other places) call what we call a "Boston Butt", a "Collar Butt".

Now I still have no idea what SRF is selling. But just the fact that it's under 5 lbs makes it illegal.

roksmith
01-27-2011, 11:28 AM
Completely agree. Now, if you call them up and specifically ask for one that is 5.1 lbs.. is it legal?

..that's assuming that it is indeed a special trim of a regular butt.
..btw I have an email into them asking what the heck it is and why they advertise it as for BBQ comps when it's under 5lbs.

drbbq
01-27-2011, 11:35 AM
Here is a reference document from the European Trade Commission on Meat Standardization.
http://www.unece.org/trade/agr/meetings/ge.11/2005/2005_05_a01_Rev01e.pdf
It says that the collar butt and butt are interchangable and both are names for the Upper Shoulder(Boston Butt).

That's good news for the cheaters when KCBS starts sanctioning contests in Europe.

Finney
01-27-2011, 11:41 AM
That's good news for the cheaters when KCBS starts sanctioning contests in Europe.


That was funny... (whether you meant it to be, or not) :becky:

roksmith
01-27-2011, 11:41 AM
It's the same hunk of meat Ray.
Awfully rude of Europe not to use an American term to name their cuts of pork.

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 11:41 AM
That's good news for the cheaters when KCBS starts sanctioning contests in Europe.

Now I'll go back to one of my original questions on this thread: Are you saying that people are cheaters because it has a different name or because it is something else?

dmp

Alexa RnQ
01-27-2011, 11:43 AM
That was funny... (whether you meant it to be, or not) :becky:
What's hilarious is that people will turn themselves inside out trying to skate on the thin edge of logistics when a pork butt is the most forgiving meat in the lineup.

Jorge
01-27-2011, 11:44 AM
Completely agree. Now, if you call them up and specifically ask for one that is 5.1 lbs.. is it legal?

..that's assuming that it is indeed a special trim of a regular butt.
..btw I have an email into them asking what the heck it is and why they advertise it as for BBQ comps when it's under 5lbs.

Based on pictures I've seen there is no standard in the US, and that's a huge part of the issue.

There is a huge opportunity for growth in competition BBQ at this point. KCBS and cooks, both have an obligation to deal with it responsibly at this point. If it turns into boxing, with the corruption and cheating, it's dead. If it's managed properly there is the opportunity for growth that can benefit everyone.

I hope enough people get that, because the window of opportunity isn't going to be open forever.

Finney
01-27-2011, 11:53 AM
What's hilarious is that people will turn themselves inside out trying to skate on the thin edge of logistics when a pork butt is the most forgiving meat in the lineup.

Hey, I buy my butts at Sam's, RD, or the supermarket... I'm just debating the legalities of the cut... :becky:

roksmith
01-27-2011, 11:54 AM
I'm just arguing because it's fun.

btw... do we sanction any events in Boston? If so, better take your Boston Butt with you. They don't call them Boston Butts there either.

drbbq
01-27-2011, 11:57 AM
Now I'll go back to one of my original questions on this thread: Are you saying that people are cheaters because it has a different name or because it is something else?

dmp

I'm not getting into the hair splitting and nit picking. A butt is a butt and if those things are butts and they weigh over 5 lbs they're legal.
When somebody gets beat out of big money with one we're probably going to find out from a court.

Maybe somebody should ask SRF to change the name. And then maybe there's some obscure country that considers 4lbs to be the same as 5 lbs in the US. Then we'll be all set.

drbbq
01-27-2011, 11:58 AM
What's hilarious is that people will turn themselves inside out trying to skate on the thin edge of logistics when a pork butt is the most forgiving meat in the lineup.

Well it is the internet.

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Is there an official KCBS position on these Collar cuts, specifically? I mean, have they addressed the issue at hand through a communication. Before this thread, I would have said that they clearly were outside of the allowable cuts. Now with all of the lack of standards and names around the cut, I'm now confused. KCBS needs to issue a position press release.

ique
01-27-2011, 12:01 PM
What's hilarious is that people will turn themselves inside out trying to skate on the thin edge of logistics when a pork butt is the most forgiving meat in the lineup.

The collar is a pork butt. There is no thin ice unless its under 5lb.

FYI, I've never used that product from SRF

swamprb
01-27-2011, 12:01 PM
Pulled some out of the freezer just to see what they weighed since they are unmarked, and surprise, surprise!!

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3271.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3270.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3269.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3268.jpg

Legal!!

I should probably learn to cook them and win or just stick with the Farmland or IBP butts!

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 12:03 PM
I'm not getting into the hair splitting and nit picking. A butt is a butt and if those things are butts and they weigh over 5 lbs they're legal.
When somebody gets beat out of big money with one we're probably going to find out from a court.

Maybe somebody should ask SRF to change the name. And then maybe there's some obscure country that considers 4lbs to be the same as 5 lbs in the US. Then we'll be all set.

I wonder if they have a 5+ lb version, too. We could be assuming that they are all 4 lbs. The language on their site could be a guide for pricing and average size. Dunno.

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 12:04 PM
The collar is a pork butt. There is no thin ice unless its under 5lb.

FYI, I've never used that product from SRF

But are you saying you've used a similar product from someone else? If so, what and how did it work? :-D

swamprb
01-27-2011, 12:20 PM
But are you saying you've used a similar product from someone else? If so, what and how did it work? :-D

This could be the thread killer!

drbbq
01-27-2011, 12:21 PM
Pulled some out of the freezer just to see what they weighed since they are unmarked, and surprise, surprise!!

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3271.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3270.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3269.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/IMG_3268.jpg

Legal!!

I should probably learn to cook them and win or just stick with the Farmland or IBP butts!

Do you think it's the same cut as those Farmland Butts?

AZScott
01-27-2011, 12:22 PM
I'd love to see what it looks like sliced. I've said it before but the heritage (Berk and Hampshire) pork butts I've experimented with has too much fat for my taste and visually it isn't appealing when the mm is sliced. The taste is good but by the time it's injected, seasoned, and sauced the meat is accented with so many other flavors it isn't worth the money.

swamprb
01-27-2011, 12:38 PM
Do you think it's the same cut as those Farmland Butts?

I was just looking at some 4+lb Farmland butts at the local QFC (Krogers) and no, they didn't look like the CT Butts.
But I do know when they advertise them at $.99 lb I have scramble to get the cryopacks!

swamprb
01-27-2011, 12:41 PM
I'd love to see what it looks like sliced. I've said it before but the heritage (Berk and Hampshire) pork butts I've experimented with has too much fat for my taste and visually it isn't appealing when the mm is sliced. The taste is good but by the time it's injected, seasoned, and sauced the meat is accented with so many other flavors it isn't worth the money.

The only time we cooked one at a comp, with the intention of slicing, we felt it was not as good as the MM from the whole butt.

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 01:53 PM
This could be the thread killer!

Let's hope so. God help us all.

Slamdunkpro
01-27-2011, 03:24 PM
I was curious enough to call my contact at Smithfield. She put me in touch with the fresh meat group and this is the answer I got to the question "What, if anything is the difference between a collar butt and a Boston Butt?"

A collar butt is the European equivalent of a US Boston butt, BUT European processors cut or "break" the animal differently than we do. US processors typically break the animal at the 1st rostral rib. European processors typically break them at the 4th rostral rib so a European butt (Collar or Boston) will have more loin meat on it and usually be larger than a US Boston. He told me that some US processors have started cutting butts European style, trimming out the forward portion of the shoulder and labeling those as collar as opposed to Boston to differentiate them. Then again some US processors have simply started using the collar designation interchangeably with Boston.

In other words "it depends":becky:

Smokin' Joe
01-27-2011, 03:38 PM
I wonder if they have a 5+ lb version, too. We could be assuming that they are all 4 lbs. The language on their site could be a guide for pricing and average size. Dunno.

That could be a good point Todd, my guess is the 4lbs is a guide...The briskets I ordered from SRF this summer said 14lbs on the website and I never got one under 17lbs. FWIW I've never seen/touched/cooked a "pork collar" from SRF or anyone else. But would like to see KCBS clarify their position:becky:

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 04:35 PM
A collar butt is the European equivalent of a US Boston butt, BUT European processors cut or "break" the animal differently than we do....a European butt (Collar or Boston) will have more loin meat on it and usually be larger than a US Boston....some US processors have simply started using the collar designation interchangeably with Boston.

Very interesting, thanks! Presuming this is accurate (and I have no reason to suspect it's not) it sounds like this could get quite confusing, and some butts may have more MM on them than others. I would guess some one should ask the KCBS if they consider a European cut butt legal, and if not, clarify in the rules that the cuts defined should conform to IMPS/NAMP standards and definitions....that is if you're really concerned that some one is going to use a European butt and shouldn't. Anything short of that is playing word games and semantics, or leaving too much undocumented IMO.

FWIW, the Rules committee is actively reviewing rule changes right now, so it would be a good time to do it!

dmp

Butcher BBQ
01-27-2011, 05:08 PM
Very interesting, thanks! Presuming this is accurate (and I have no reason to suspect it's not) it sounds like this could get quite confusing, and some butts may have more MM on them than others. I would guess someone should ask the KCBS if they consider a European cut butt legal, and if not, clarify in the rules that the cuts defined should conform to IMPS/NAMP standards and definitions....that is if you're really concerned that someone is going to use a European butt and shouldn't. Anything short of that is playing word games and semantics, or leaving too much undocumented IMO.

FWIW, the Rules committee is actively reviewing rule changes right now, so it would be a good time to do it!

dmp

Bingo that is exactly what it is, they have a standard way of breaking right along with the French, and Austria. I had a lengthy conversation with a BOD member last night about adopting the standard US primal description and location of muscle for pork. The post I made yesterday with all the cutting dimension from the animal is the US recognized way of breaking and selling Pork Shoulder Butts and the collar meat is not part of the method.

Without using a standardized process reading the rules as written you could cook a whole pork loin and front shoulder connected (as one) as long as the butcher called it a butt.

swamprb
01-27-2011, 05:22 PM
But if the pigs are raised, slaughtered, cut, packed, shipped and sold in the US, how can they be considered a European cut?

Could it be this cut is destined to Asian and EU markets?

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 05:31 PM
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but the IMPS/NAMP documents not only describe what the cuts of meat are, but they are instruction manuals for how to butcher an entire animal. You have to know which muscle is which and what the dorsal side is, etc, but if you know enough swine or bovine A&P, you can start with a whole carcass and create properly butcher the animal. The European guide which has been mentioned a few times in this thread has similar instructions, but they differ: They may say to cut a different muscle, or to cut the same muscle in a different place, or same with bones, fat, or connective tissue. And this is what I have been trying to get at the whole thread: Are we concerned with what the cut is called, or what the meat is?

dmp

Jorge
01-27-2011, 06:12 PM
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but the IMPS/NAMP documents not only describe what the cuts of meat are, but they are instruction manuals for how to butcher an entire animal. You have to know which muscle is which and what the dorsal side is, etc, but if you know enough swine or bovine A&P, you can start with a whole carcass and create properly butcher the animal. The European guide which has been mentioned a few times in this thread has similar instructions, but they differ: They may say to cut a different muscle, or to cut the same muscle in a different place, or same with bones, fat, or connective tissue. And this is what I have been trying to get at the whole thread: Are we concerned with what the cut is called, or what the meat is?

dmp

Yes!

I don't care what it's called if it's a butt, as we have known it. If it's a different cut, containing different muscles the field is no longer level. I don't care if it comes from the shoulder. The rules, as they are written, exist to establish a fair contest for anyone that chooses to enter.

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 06:37 PM
Bingo that is exactly what it is, they have a standard way of breaking right along with the French, and Austria. I had a lengthy conversation with a BOD member last night about adopting the standard US primal description and location of muscle for pork. The post I made yesterday with all the cutting dimension from the animal is the US recognized way of breaking and selling Pork Shoulder Butts and the collar meat is not part of the method.

Without using a standardized process reading the rules as written you could cook a whole pork loin and front shoulder connected (as one) as long as the butcher called it a butt.

And if you are your own butcher... you'd be set! Wanna supply me a "special" Pork Shoulder this year?

drbbq
01-27-2011, 07:38 PM
Could it be this cut is destined to Asian and EU markets?

Actually I think the loin is destined for those markets so it's cut that way and the collar and just about everything else is sort of a by-product. Maybe the hams have some value there as well.

I believe their Wagyu briskets are a similar story. I cooked in Seattle 6-7 years ago with Chris Lilly and we were given briskets and a couple of huge untrimmed shoulders from SRF. I don't believe they had much of a market for those cuts at that time so I'd say they love us now for paying big bucks for it.

swamprb
01-27-2011, 08:19 PM
Actually I think the loin is destined for those markets so it's cut that way and the collar and just about everything else is sort of a by-product. Maybe the hams have some value there as well.

I believe their Wagyu briskets are a similar story. I cooked in Seattle 6-7 years ago with Chris Lilly and we were given briskets and a couple of huge untrimmed shoulders from SRF. I don't believe they had much of a market for those cuts at that time so I'd say they love us now for paying big bucks for it.

All I ever hear about on the forums is Snake River Farms for Wagyu and Kurobuta. I've never been able to get it locally, so I've never cooked it. I was at a comp a few years back and Jim Minion introduced the group to some SRF reps that were promoting a grilling contest.

I kinda nosed around on some other sites and couldn't find any Collars. I did see SRF Kurobuta Hams in a couple markets over the holidays.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Whole%20Hog/IMG_2924.jpg

Mishima Ranch, Kobe Beef America and Premium Proteins have to be just as good as $RF without the brand name recognition.

drbbq
01-27-2011, 08:28 PM
Minion was involved with the deal I was talking about as well.

roksmith
01-27-2011, 08:44 PM
Alright.. Let me ask the question this way.
If I were to purchase a whole shoulder for the purpose of cooking in a KCBS competition, would it be legal for me to trim any meat off of said shoulder prior to cooking, and if so, how much trimming can I do and still be legal?

Finney
01-27-2011, 09:21 PM
Just go to your butcher and tell him you want this: (this is THE Boston Butt specification)

Item No. 406 - Pork Shoulder, Boston Butt, Bone-In - This item is as described in Item No.
403 except that the picnic is removed as described in Item No. 405. Skin, neck bones and
related cartilage shall be removed. At least traces of false lean (M. trapezius) shall be
exposed. When specified, the neck shall be removed by a straight cut approximately parallel
to the loin side, immediately anterior to the half moon muscle (M. pectorales profundus).

Except tell him you don't want the cut specified in the last sentence. The one that starts, "When specified". ("when specified" are key words)

100% legal, and you get meat you wouldn't if they made that cut.

Butcher BBQ
01-27-2011, 09:32 PM
Just go to your butcher and tell him you want this: (this is THE Boston Butt specification)

Item No. 406 - Pork Shoulder, Boston Butt, Bone-In - This item is as described in Item No.
403 except that the picnic is removed as described in Item No. 405. Skin, neck bones and
related cartilage shall be removed. At least traces of false lean (M. trapezius) shall be
exposed. When specified, the neck shall be removed by a straight cut approximately parallel
to the loin side, immediately anterior to the half moon muscle (M. pectorales profundus).

Except tell him you don't want the cut specified in the last sentence. The one that starts, "When specified". ("when specified" are key words)

100% legal, and you get meat you wouldn't if they made that cut.

Actually this is the correct way:

The shoulder is separated from the side by a straight cut that is approximately perpendicular to the length of the side. The cut shall be made posterior to (so as not to expose) the elbow, but not more than 1.0 inch (2.5 cm) from the tip of the elbow. The outer tip of the subscapularis muscle shall not extend past the dorsal edge of the base of the medial ridge of the blade bone. The foot shall be excluded at or slightly above the upper knee joint by a straight cut approximately perpendicular to the shank bones. The jowl shall be excluded by a straight cut approximately parallel with the loin side which is anterior to, but not more than 1.0 inch (2.5 cm) from the innermost curvature of the ear dip. The neck bones, ribs, breast bones, associated cartilage and breast flap (through the major crease) shall also be excluded. The fat and skin shall be beveled to meet the lean on the dorsal edge. The exterior fat thickness at the dorsal skin edge, measured at the center of the cut, shall not exceed that indicated in the schedule shown.

Finney
01-27-2011, 09:46 PM
Yea, but that puts him into a whole shoulder and I was trying to keep him in a Butt... but with the most meat... LOL

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 10:22 PM
I feel like I need a PhD in meat butchery in order to be a competition cook anymore. $150,000 contests will do that, I guess.

dmprantz
01-27-2011, 10:31 PM
I can get a PhD pig scientist to answer some questions if I need too...she loves BBQ but I was saving those chips. Butcher's seems to have it covered.

drbbq
01-27-2011, 10:34 PM
I feel like I need a PhD in meat butchery in order to be a competition cook anymore. $150,000 contests will do that, I guess.

I was thinking it was just bored guys on the net. I wonder how many from this thread will be in Las Vegas.....

swamprb
01-27-2011, 10:50 PM
Minion was involved with the deal I was talking about as well.

I recall an old BBQ Central Pork Roundtable with you, Jim and others discussing methods, and when Jim brought up the Berkshire/Kurobuta pork he was using, everyone gave him a hard time!

swamprb
01-27-2011, 10:54 PM
My supplier ships overnight if anyone is interested in trying said controversial cut.

Plowboy
01-27-2011, 11:40 PM
I was thinking it was just bored guys on the net. I wonder how many from this thread will be in Las Vegas.....

How many will be cooking Pork Collars?

ique
01-27-2011, 11:50 PM
I feel like I need a PhD in meat butchery in order to be a competition cook anymore. $150,000 contests will do that, I guess.

Or, just go to Restaurant Depot and buy the two-pack

roksmith
01-28-2011, 04:39 AM
How many will be cooking Pork Collars?

My guess is most everybody, although they won't know it.

drbbq
01-28-2011, 07:48 AM
I recall an old BBQ Central Pork Roundtable with you, Jim and others discussing methods, and when Jim brought up the Berkshire/Kurobuta pork he was using, everyone gave him a hard time!

Yeah and Wagyu briskets too! And it wasn't very long ago. Things are changing fast!

roksmith
01-28-2011, 07:57 AM
Ahh wagyu is still overrated. Gimme a USDA prime any day. Easier to get and much cheaper.

drbbq
01-28-2011, 08:52 AM
You seem to be really trying hard to start an argument. Hang around a little and you'll see that this forum really is different. We don't usually fall for that.

drbbq
01-28-2011, 08:55 AM
I'm just arguing because it's fun.

No comment

swamprb
01-28-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm just curious how people are cooking them?

The first time I smoked some, they took longer to cook than the larger Farmland butts, and the stall lasted for what seemed like an eternity. I've heard people complain that the Kurobuta is too fatty, but the ones we cooked were very lean, there was hardly any fat in the meat, or if there was it rendered out and the meat shredded rather than pulled. I worried I might have overcooked them, but they were moist and sweet.

Another time we turbo'd some in foil pans to serve sliced and I felt they were comp quality. The last time we did the roadshow at the Butcher Shop, we smoked some for a customer, took them to 180* because he wanted to slice them. We never got a taste but we heard they loved it.

Slamdunkpro
01-28-2011, 11:36 AM
The only way to insure that only allowed cuts of meat are being used would be to hold all events in a fenced compound, have a TSA like search of all persons and vehicles to insure that no outside meat is being brought in then issuing each team their meat from a common pool provided by the contest. Nobody wants to do that.

Much like golf, competitor integrity has to play a major roll in policing BBQ comps due to the solo nature of the competition. You either have it or you don't.

As contests get bigger and bigger purses, should KCBS and other sanctioning bodies tighten up their rules/procedures and remove ambiguities? Absolutely! The worst thing for competitive BBQ rules is to go the way of the "unwritten, but everyone knows it's OK/prohibited" route. If it's a bad or ambiguous rule - change it for the better.

Jorge
01-28-2011, 11:40 AM
I was thinking it was just bored guys on the net. I wonder how many from this thread will be in Las Vegas.....

I've got a great idea for a shirt for that contest:)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brewer
01-28-2011, 12:36 PM
Ahh wagyu is still overrated. Gimme a USDA prime any day. Easier to get and much cheaper.

Totally disagree.

roksmith
01-28-2011, 12:55 PM
You seem to be really trying hard to start an argument. Hang around a little and you'll see that this forum really is different. We don't usually fall for that.

Ray,
I've been around here for a couple of years now, and although I may have used the word argue, what I probably should have said was "partake in good healthy discussion". After all, that's what we're really doing here. There is obviously room for discussion on this matter for a couple of reasons.

1. There are obviously posters in three positions on this.
Those who say it's illegal
Those who say it's legal
And those who don't know.

2. As has been previously stated and re-confirmed by my local KCBS rep to me this morning, the board is discussing this very same topic right now.

I apologize to those who feel I have slighted them or their experience by not being willing to back down because I didn't share their view and would not accept "shut up and color" as an answer. We obviously have folk with lots of BBQ experience in all three categories listed above.

As a follow up, I think from what I was told by my rep this morning, most folks were partially right and partially wrong on their arguments.

According to him:

By the current rules, any piece of meat that is labeled as anything other than a Boston butt, a picnic, or whole shoulder would be illegal.

But

You are perfectly legal trimming any of those cuts down to whatever size you like prior to cooking so long as the piece you will cook is one piece and weighs 5lbs.
As long as the piece is 5lbs at inspection and it started off as one of the legal cuts, it's legal.

So you cannot show up with something labeled CT trimmed pork collar, but if you buy a shoulder and trim it to the very same piece of meat either on site, or at home prior to arrival, you are well within the rules.

That is why (I've been told) they are discussing the rule now.. Because it is not as clear as some might think.

roksmith
01-28-2011, 01:00 PM
Personally, I'd like to see the rule changed so that you can not do any fancy trimming.. No butterflying, no trimming around the money muscle to get smoke ring most of the way around it. Nothing... Rub it, inject if you like and toss it in the cooker. Now that would ensure an even playing field.

In fact, no off site trimming. Everything shows up in original cryopacs. Labeled from the distributor. No questions then.

Finney
01-28-2011, 01:22 PM
Seems to me like they would be way better off using the IMPS Item Numbers, rather than the names.

landarc
01-28-2011, 02:06 PM
If it takes longer to cook, is leaner (yes I think fat means taste) and is best served sliced, I don't see how it is cheating, in fact, it seems like a bad idea. I mean, would sliced pork do at all well in a comp?

Plowboy
01-28-2011, 02:21 PM
If it takes longer to cook, is leaner (yes I think fat means taste) and is best served sliced, I don't see how it is cheating, in fact, it seems like a bad idea. I mean, would sliced pork do at all well in a comp?

Sliced pork rules!

My boar's tooth thinks so, too.

ique
01-28-2011, 02:24 PM
I mean, would sliced pork do at all well in a comp?

I say yes.

Scottie
01-28-2011, 02:31 PM
is that a pork collar? :wink:


I say yes.

Plowboy
01-28-2011, 02:38 PM
is that a pork collar? :wink:

iQue uses spiral sliced, honey baked hams.

ammoore
01-28-2011, 02:39 PM
I say yes.


I love that knife.
Gonna get me one of those this year.

ique
01-28-2011, 02:44 PM
iQue uses spiral sliced, honey baked hams.

They weigh out at 5lbs though.

Plowboy
01-28-2011, 02:45 PM
They weigh out at 5lbs though.

Atta boy!

dmprantz
01-28-2011, 03:10 PM
By the current rules, any piece of meat that is labeled as anything other than a Boston butt, a picnic, or whole shoulder would be illegal.


Thank you for the information. That's interesting and unfortunate, because the pieces of meat I buy are not Boston butts. I just confirmed with one of my suppliers that they are "Pork Shoulder Butts." I would bet that a majority of the competitors in your average competitions are in the same boat. I think they should use the IMPS/NAMP definitions rather than verbiage on packaging. I'm also curious from the reps and BOD if it matters who does the trimming, the competitor or the butcher. I will have this answered by the BOD or a rep before I lay down money for my first competition this year.

dmp

ThomEmery
01-28-2011, 03:35 PM
we going to end up with a NASCAR type pit judge at every smoker?
Aint $$ fun?

Scottie
01-28-2011, 03:37 PM
no... I find this like sticking yourself in the eye with a form and pouring Tabasco in your eye...

Slamdunkpro
01-28-2011, 03:37 PM
we going to end up with a NASCAR type pit judge at every smoker?

carrying a cooler:hungry:









*runs*

Plowboy
01-28-2011, 03:41 PM
we going to end up with a NASCAR type pit judge at every smoker?
Aint $$ fun?

If people continue to operate outside of the rules or push them to the utter limits, then yes.

I'd LOVE to see the list of names using these.

Alexa RnQ
01-28-2011, 03:55 PM
I'd love to see that list as well.

ique
01-28-2011, 04:12 PM
YEAH! Who is on that List!

http://coldleftovers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/simpsons-mob.jpg

Jacked UP BBQ
01-28-2011, 04:33 PM
I haven't read the entire thread but I am going to call out whoever claims there is a list. I think its a bunch of crap.

Jorge
01-28-2011, 04:40 PM
I want to see who's going to publish that list!:becky::laugh:

roksmith
01-28-2011, 04:42 PM
I would imagine, prior to any controversy, SRF would have been glad to produce a list.. It's a marketing tool if they are successful.
Now? Maybe not so much.

Btw the inquiry I made to SRF yesterday morning was never answered by them.

Plowboy
01-28-2011, 04:44 PM
YEAH! Who is on that List!

http://coldleftovers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/simpsons-mob.jpg

That is damn funny.

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 04:51 PM
I would imagine, prior to any controversy, SRF would have been glad to produce a list.. It's a marketing tool if they are successful.
Now? Maybe not so much.

Btw the inquiry I made to SRF yesterday morning was never answered by them.

anyone know if SRF has ever visited this forum and thus might have even seen the thread?
if not, they should still be more than willing to offer their prior customer list.

Scottie
01-28-2011, 04:54 PM
I want to see who's going to publish that list!:becky::laugh:



Yeah, me too.

dmprantz
01-28-2011, 05:26 PM
I doubt any company is going to publically list who their customers are unless they have expressed, written consent from those customers to do so. Marketing tool or not, publishing information about some one, even if it's true, is violation of that person's privacy. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it's bad form, and opens you up to litigation at worst, and a lost customer at best. They just don't do it. I know of one team who was in the chase who is sponsored by SRF, so I'm sure that would be published, but I only know they are his beed sponsor, not pork.

So we've established that if it's not labeled as a "Boston Butt" when sold, it's not legal, making a collar not legal. Are you going to want to see a list of those who used "pork shoulder butts" and dethrown them as well? Just as illegal from what I've read. Any one here willing to say that the pork you use, in competition is sold to you as either a "Boston butt," "Picnic," or "whole shoulder?"

dmp

DawgPhan
01-28-2011, 05:48 PM
I doubt any company is going to publically list who their customers are unless they have expressed, written consent from those customers to do so. Marketing tool or not, publishing information about some one, even if it's true, is violation of that person's privacy. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it's bad form, and opens you up to litigation at worst, and a lost customer at best. They just don't do it. I know of one team who was in the chase who is sponsored by SRF, so I'm sure that would be published, but I only know they are his beed sponsor, not pork.

So we've established that if it's not labeled as a "Boston Butt" when sold, it's not legal, making a collar not legal. Are you going to want to see a list of those who used "pork shoulder butts" and dethrown them as well? Just as illegal from what I've read. Any one here willing to say that the pork you use, in competition is sold to you as either a "Boston butt," "Picnic," or "whole shoulder?"

dmp

:roll:

swamprb
01-28-2011, 06:31 PM
...so has anyone tried the SRF Kurobuta Pork Spareribs?

What if I roll into town with these trimmed down?

http://www.premierproteins.com/Berkshire-Six-Point-Pork.asp

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Ribs%201-11/IMG_3257.jpg

Just sayin'

roksmith
01-28-2011, 07:34 PM
They weigh 5 lbs?





So we've established that if it's not labeled as a "Boston Butt" when sold, it's not legal, making a collar not legal. Are you going to want to see a list of those who used "pork shoulder butts" and dethrown them as well? Just as illegal from what I've read. Any one here willing to say that the pork you use, in competition is sold to you as either a "Boston butt," "Picnic," or "whole shoulder?"

dmp

Yup, a pork shoulder butt is just as illegal as a collar butt.
The rule should probably read:
Any 5 lb or larger cut of meat originating from the pork shoulder primal.

Smokin' Joe
01-28-2011, 07:55 PM
I say yes.


to heck with pork collars I gotta get my hands on one of those knives...can you tell me who makes it? Sorry to hijack:becky:

roksmith
01-28-2011, 08:32 PM
It is a nice knife :-D

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 09:20 PM
I doubt any company is going to publically list who their customers are unless they have expressed, written consent from those customers to do so. Marketing tool or not, publishing information about some one, even if it's true, is violation of that person's privacy. I'm not saying it's illegal, but it's bad form, and opens you up to litigation at worst, and a lost customer at best. They just don't do it. I know of one team who was in the chase who is sponsored by SRF, so I'm sure that would be published, but I only know they are his beed sponsor, not pork.

So we've established that if it's not labeled as a "Boston Butt" when sold, it's not legal, making a collar not legal. Are you going to want to see a list of those who used "pork shoulder butts" and dethrown them as well? Just as illegal from what I've read. Any one here willing to say that the pork you use, in competition is sold to you as either a "Boston butt," "Picnic," or "whole shoulder?"

dmp

i don't think that has been established.

they can't post a list unless explictly consented. BUT,

earlier in this thread it was stated that, when called, they have given names of teams using this peice from them.

therefor, THE LIST, could be garnered from them quite easily. without any legal implications. now, you'd only have to trust the source that called and posted the names.

personally, i don't give a fark.

picnic is a part of a shoulder

butt is a part of a picnic.

therfor a part of a butt, over 5#'s is legal.

maybe the rule should read, ANY whole part of the pig over 5 pounds.

i guess MANY cooks would still choose the butt because it is excellent.

then again, perhaps not...

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 09:24 PM
to heck with pork collars I gotta get my hands on one of those knives...can you tell me who makes it? Sorry to hijack:becky:

i'm sure it's a henckels or wustoff.

them IQUE chef guys aint farkin around.

ique
01-28-2011, 09:28 PM
to heck with pork collars I gotta get my hands on one of those knives...can you tell me who makes it? Sorry to hijack:becky:

It is a nice knife :-D

Its a 14" Glestain Beef Slicer.

http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6498

Slightly over the top.

The 12" is a bit more practical and more reasonably priced

http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6349

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 09:29 PM
They weigh 5 lbs?





Yup, a pork shoulder butt is just as illegal as a collar butt.
The rule should probably read:
Any 5 lb or larger cut of meat originating from the pork shoulder primal.

why would a pork sparerib need to weigh 5 pounds?

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 09:48 PM
Its a 14" Glestain Beef Slicer.

http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6498

Slightly over the top.

The 12" is a bit more practical and more reasonably priced

http://www.knifemerchant.com/product.asp?productID=6349

i stand corrected then. that IS over the top. :becky:

but i use Shuns, so who am i to talk. :wink:

my wife's wrap, who was a chef at four seasons palm beach and algonquin club boston, was whostoff so i just figured...

but now i'm letting out my secrets...i've got a ringer

Jacked UP BBQ
01-28-2011, 09:52 PM
If I had it I would post it, so if you have it send it to me and I will post it

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 10:00 PM
somebody in this thread talked to them and knows it, but there is no "list".

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 10:05 PM
Skippy!!!!

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 10:10 PM
When someone called up Snake River Farms, they did throw out a bunch of BBQ Teams that use them... Even a team that finished in the top for TOY standings... So just sayin...

A pork collar is illegal. Because it came from an area near the shoulder, does not make it part of the shoulder. That would be like saying you could use a ham, because it is attached to the hog. Or pork belly, etc....

I still like the idea of reps walking around at 10:00 am to inspect meat. Reps do this anyway to make sure everything is going well for cooks and to show them the official time.
....

Jacked UP BBQ
01-28-2011, 10:13 PM
Skippy!!!!


Is skippy directed at me?

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 10:18 PM
um no. skippy would be the prince consort of wannabebbq queen.

as far as i understand he has some thoughts on the KCBS pork rules.

you should know him, you roll in their used trailer.

Jacked UP BBQ
01-28-2011, 10:20 PM
um no. skippy would be the prince consort of wannabebbq queen.

as far as i understand he has some thoughts on the KCBS pork rules.

you should know him, you roll in their trailer.

I sure do know him. I was wondering why someone would just write skippy after they quoted me. Anyway I have the same feelings about the pork rule as him

boogiesnap
01-28-2011, 10:31 PM
i didn't quote you.

you for sure knoe him better than i, but,

i was actually hoping he had a web crawler that would catch his name, alert him, and join in.

from my conversations with him and julie they were very educated on the subject.

i just thought he might enjoy being part of the debate here.

no foul intended, jersey boy. you're living the dream, and i mean that in earnest.

Dale P
01-29-2011, 06:01 AM
...so has anyone tried the SRF Kurobuta Pork Spareribs?

What if I roll into town with these trimmed down?

http://www.premierproteins.com/Berkshire-Six-Point-Pork.asp

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t310/swamprb/Butcher%20Shop%20Cafe/BSC%20Ribs%201-11/IMG_3257.jpg

Just sayin'

Nice pic!
I have tried the kurobuta spares and I did not care for them. Way too expensive for what I got. I did a side by side cook with K-$pares and regular ol Costco ribs. I preferred the cheap costco ribs by far. But I did not get the K-$pares from SRF.

CBQ
01-29-2011, 07:05 AM
That could be a good point Todd, my guess is the 4lbs is a guide...The briskets I ordered from SRF this summer said 14lbs on the website and I never got one under 17lbs. FWIW I've never seen/touched/cooked a "pork collar" from SRF or anyone else. But would like to see KCBS clarify their position:becky:

That's going to change now that they are selling them by size.

It does sound like the European cut of the collar has more money muscle in it, and based on some of the pictures people have posted it looks that way too. If that's the case, it should be illegal to use - it's not really the same cut of meat.

Juggy D Beerman
01-29-2011, 10:01 AM
For what it's worth, I called SRF a few days ago and had inquired about their pork collars. I told them I was interested in using them for KCBS competitions. I also made mention of their web-site page that stated several championship teams were using them in KCBS contests. I asked them if they could tell me some of the teams that used them in contests and they would not mention any names. They also stated that there was some question as to whether this cut was legal for contests, due to their size. Nothing was mentioned about whether the cut itself was legal or not, only that most of the collars that they sold were under five pounds. I also asked if the collar meat was commonly referred to as cushion meat. The company rep informed that they were both one and the same and explained that different regions of the country use different descriptors sometimes. One other comment that really got us both laughing was the fact that SRF has received a lot of phone calls from people in the last week asking the same questions as I have.

Lager,

Juggy

dmprantz
01-29-2011, 10:52 AM
The cushion (IMPS/NAMP 405B) is a sub-cut from the Picnic, this if a person trims it himself and it is over 5 lb, it is legal. I thought some one said though that this was the same as a butt but may have had more loin. If so, there needs to be some clarification. Perhaps the resident butcher has more info.

dmp

swamprb
01-29-2011, 12:16 PM
So, is anyone willing to admit they have smoked "cushion meat" for catering or home use?

If so, what was your impression?

roksmith
01-29-2011, 08:02 PM
From the description I saw online for cushion meat, I would think it to be a bit lean for me to want to BBQ it. It's supposed to be the lean side of the picnic. Completely different from the SRF online description of a (petite Boston butt).

I have heard Asian restaurants use the cushion meat for their pork kabobs... But that's just what I've heard.

roksmith
01-29-2011, 08:04 PM
why would a pork sparerib need to weigh 5 pounds?

Yea.. My bad.. There was so much meat on top I didn't even recognize them as ribs.. Thought they were little roasts.. I see the bones now.. Wow meaty little suckers.

Butcher BBQ
01-29-2011, 11:16 PM
The cushion (IMPS/NAMP 405B) is a sub-cut from the Picnic, this if a person trims it himself and it is over 5 lb, it is legal. I thought some one said though that this was the same as a butt but may have had more loin. If so, there needs to be some clarification. Perhaps the resident butcher has more info.

dmp

If they are now saying they have cushion meat that is funny. I guess its all up to who answers the phone as to what you might end up with. Sorry for the late response I have been out of town.

rocksbarbque
01-30-2011, 12:25 PM
we need a porki leaks guy. I want to know who has the list and how can we get it published? how about an Abe Lincoln quote?

“I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.”

LindaM
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
If it's known that it's going to happen a cook can plan for it. Let the reps start, randomly at one end or the other, or the middle of the field and make the rounds.

It sounds excessive, but so does subbing a different cut of meat.

Does that mean an organizer would require an additional rep just to do that, typically the judges are arriving around 10 so the reps are usually busy with them. From a former KCBS rep.

ique
01-30-2011, 01:19 PM
Does that mean an organizer would require an additional rep just to do that, typically the judges are arriving around 10 so the reps are usually busy with them. From a former KCBS rep.

Yeah, being a rep is often a thankless job. In New England, we have the cooks, the judges, but sometimes short on reps. Add turn-in Gestapo to the job requirement and it may be even harder to find good reps.

INmitch
01-30-2011, 02:05 PM
I know this sounds stupid & I'll probaly regret posting it. If your going to do spot checks do it at 4am when almost every one will have their pork in the smoker unwrapped. Most people are up by then.....at least the stick burners are.

Dale P
01-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Check on us anytime. But if you want a real treat come by Thursday night around 11 pm.

chopshop
01-31-2011, 09:59 AM
um no. skippy would be the prince consort of wannabebbq queen.

as far as i understand he has some thoughts on the KCBS pork rules.

you should know him, you roll in their used trailer.

i didn't quote you.

you for sure knoe him better than i, but,

i was actually hoping he had a web crawler that would catch his name, alert him, and join in.

from my conversations with him and julie they were very educated on the subject.

i just thought he might enjoy being part of the debate here.

no foul intended, jersey boy. you're living the dream, and i mean that in earnest.
Im issuing a stalker alert

roksmith
01-31-2011, 10:52 AM
fyi- Just got an email back from SRF that indicates they will be selling 5lb and larger cuts begining in the next few weeks.
Now if the cut were made legal, they'd be in business.

Finney
01-31-2011, 10:58 AM
fyi- Just got an email back from SRF that indicates they will be selling 5lb and larger cuts begining in the next few weeks.
Now if the cut were made legal, they'd be in business.

Are they going to rename it? :becky:

Alexa RnQ
01-31-2011, 10:59 AM
they will be selling 5lb and larger cuts begining in the next few weeks.

I wonder what all those underweight, illegal cuts could have been used for by all those top competition teams?

roksmith
01-31-2011, 11:00 AM
dunno... They made no mention of that. (renaming it that is)

Scottie
01-31-2011, 01:26 PM
Well, I have it and I am not publishing it, because I was told by someone else. Trust me, if I called SRF and they told me, I'd be busting folks balls right now. But because I heard it second hand info, I do not feel that is my right to be calling guys out. No matter how popular they are. they are cheating, plain and simple. But I can guarantee you that if I am at the same contest, they had best have a scale and an explanation why they are cooking illegal meat.... If the rules are not weighted evenly for all,I guarantee you someone will be suing the KCBS. It's happened in the past.. It will happen again. I feel fortunate that I have free legal advice... :becky:



we need a porki leaks guy. I want to know who has the list and how can we get it published? how about an Abe Lincoln quote?

“I am not bound to win, but I am bound to be true. I am not bound to succeed, but I am bound to live by the light that I have. I must stand with anybody that stands right, and stand with him while he is right, and part with him when he goes wrong.”

dmprantz
01-31-2011, 01:38 PM
I can guarantee you that if I am at the same contest, they had best have a scale and an explanation why they are cooking illegal meat....

Are you then saying that the meat you cook for the pork category in KCBS comps is labeled as "Boston Butt," "Picnic," or "Whole Shoulder" by the packer and retailer? Are you willing to provide documentation of that, or an explaination why your meat is legal and some one else's is not? I have no disagreement over the 5lb issue, but if we are going to be calling people cheaters over the name of a cut of meat, we should be willing to live by our own standards, no?

dmp

Scottie
01-31-2011, 01:51 PM
yeah, why nolt? I have nothing to hide. Ever... I don't need to bend the rules to fit my weakness in cooking. I can stand on my own two feet and beat folks with substandard legal meats. I don't need any advantage. If I don't win, I sure am not going to bitch about my meat... Judging maybe... :becky: But if there is any question (sometimes I have to get smaller butts, I will bring the labeling AND my scale..) I have also gone as far as having the rep look at my meat. Just in case they are have not seen what I do with my pork. If the reps know me, then I don't worry about it. But all new reps, I will seek out.

ique
01-31-2011, 02:05 PM
No matter how popular they are. they are cheating, plain and simple.

If pork collar is simply another name for what we all know as boston butt and the cut is over 5lb no one was cheating.

chopshop
01-31-2011, 02:20 PM
i think he is talking about the fact that snake river farms only offered a 4 LB collar. now they say that the cut will be available over 5 LB. i think he's refering to the weight before this whole thing started and not the cut. me personally, i could care less. i dont care what is cooked by other teams. i really cant see a slightly different cut or undersized piece being an advantage anyway. there is always going to be a butcher who cuts a steak a slightly different way and calls it his own cut, like the new sam adams steak. He could call it what he wants but i still think its a strip steak. but the fact of the matter is whatever the butcher classifies his "new" cut as, its still a strip steak just like the collar is still a glorified butt. as long as its 5 pounds who cares

roksmith
01-31-2011, 02:38 PM
I think we still have two completely different debates going.
I don't think anybody dissagrees that if the cut is under 5lbs it's illegal.
The major conflict revolves around the naming of the legal cuts.
In my opinion, if you are not gaining a competitive advantage and are cooking a 5lb or larger hunk of meat from the shoulder, it's not cheating.

I just hope when it comes time for me to get my butts for the next contest, I don't find out that Sam's Club is labeling theirs as Pork Shoulder Butts instead of Boston Butts.

Scottie
01-31-2011, 02:43 PM
If pork collar is simply another name for what we all know as boston butt and the cut is over 5lb no one was cheating.


I'm going to start having my butcher call my pork loin, white meat butt. Or the belly as bacon butt. that's all cool then? I mean, they are all attached at some point... :thumb:

there has to be a clear definition and I believe that KCBS does that in the rules. No matter how many hairs can be split, it's still not a pork shoulder, butt or picnic. I don't care what Snake River Farms call it. I also know that a bunch of guys have sponsorship with SRF. doesn't make it anymore right.

I'll wait for a decision by the Board. I have a feeling which way it will be ruled.

musicmanryann
01-31-2011, 02:48 PM
I have also gone as far as having the rep look at my meat. :shocked:

I guess it would depend on the rep whether or not that would give you a competitive advantage. :laugh: Sorry, I'll go to my corner now.

dmprantz
01-31-2011, 02:49 PM
I just hope when it comes time for me to get my butts for the next contest, I don't find out that Sam's Club is labeling theirs as Pork Shoulder Butts instead of Boston Butts.

Get ready for your hopes to be crushed. Sam's Club (near me anyway) sells Pork Shoulder Butts. I suggest you try to find a butcher who sells something distributed under the name "Boston Butt," or let the BOD know how this rule affects you.

dmp

roksmith
01-31-2011, 02:58 PM
That's kinda my point. How clear is the rule exactly? Who says a Pork Shoulder Butt or a Pork Butt is the same thing as a Boston Butt...and who says a Collar Butt isn't the same.
If we're following this rule that is so clear, then every Pork Shoulder Butt at your local Sams is illegal.

I think the spirit of the rule is fine, but the wording is waaaay to restrictive if we're to follow it to the letter.

Scottie
01-31-2011, 03:12 PM
I think some folks should worry about how to cook the meat, not how to get around the rules. If that is your advantage, awesome. the rules are clear, no matter how muddied you make the waters...


I now know why i have tried staying out of this discussion.

roksmith
01-31-2011, 03:17 PM
Who's trying to get around the rules?

dmprantz
01-31-2011, 03:24 PM
Scottie: I have no doubt that you do everything possible to ensure that you are not cheating and that should be acknowledged. You even go the extra step as you mentioned with reps and informing your neighbors if you have to relight your pit. I just want to ensure that before any one calls foul over the name of a cut of meat, that person should have the correctly named cut.

Chris: While I agree with you that it should be that way, from what has been posted in this thread, it is not that way. If it's the same cut but labeled something else when sold, it is not the same thing. If that's the rule, that's the rule, but we should all abide by it. I don't shop at RD, but what are their products labeled as when purchased? How are they marked when in the case?

And of course, I agree with keeping things legal, but how far are we going to go. The meat needs to be called something when purchased, but what is placed on the cooker can be some subset thereof, as long as it is >= 5 lb.. Weighing at meat inspection is much less important to me than weighing before the insertion into the cooker. Should the reps find out from each team what time the meat goes in and weigh it then? How far are we going to go here? And of course there's always the question, how do you ensure that the meat that was inspected, at meat inspection or at meat insertion, is the meat being served? You can go crazy being paranoid what other teams are doing and still not solve the problem.

btw, slightly off topic, but not, is there rule prohibiting non-competition meats from being cooked in any cooker at any point during a comp? Call it questionable if you want, but is it illegal?

dmp

ique
01-31-2011, 03:28 PM
I'm going to start having my butcher call my pork loin, white meat butt. Or the belly as bacon butt. that's all cool then? I mean, they are all attached at some point... :thumb:

No. That would be illegal.

If the cut is the upper part of the front shoulder (ie, Boston Butt, Pork Butt, Collar Trim Butt) it doesnt matter what you call it, its legal.

DawgPhan
01-31-2011, 03:38 PM
No. That would be illegal.

If the cut is the upper part of the front shoulder (ie, Boston Butt, Pork Butt, Collar Trim Butt) it doesnt matter what you call it, its legal.


The problem I see with the "collar is part of the butt" argument is that should the collar contain pieces of muscle/fat/sinew/vein/bone/grissle/etc that would not normally be a part of the butt. I would contend that even a single fiber of a muscle/whatever from something not contained in a shoulder, picnic, or butt would make the cut illegal, even if the offending piece was removed prior to cooking.

ique
01-31-2011, 03:47 PM
The problem I see with the "collar is part of the butt" argument is that should the collar contain pieces of muscle/fat/sinew/vein/bone/grissle/etc that would not normally be a part of the butt. I would contend that even a single fiber of a muscle/whatever from something not contained in a shoulder, picnic, or butt would make the cut illegal, even if the offending piece was removed prior to cooking.

I agree with all that, only the muscles that would be included in a traditional Boston Butt are legal. And I believe thats the case with the collar trim butt.

NRA4Life
01-31-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't shop at RD, but what are their products labeled as when purchased? How are they marked when in the case?

dmp

The 2-pack in my freezer that I recently purchased from my local Restaurant Depot is labeled "Pork Butts Bone In".

Finney
01-31-2011, 04:55 PM
According to the official IMPS specifications for a Boston Butt, if you take a whole shoulder and cut off the picnic.... everything left above the picnic is a Boston Butt.....

But most people don't find them that way in their stores. Another horizontal cut has been made that removes the meat above what you are used to seeing. What remains though, is still a Boston Butt. So there is a lot of meat you aren't used to seeing on your Boston Butt that is still officially part of the Boston Butt.

Finney
01-31-2011, 04:59 PM
So (at least) some Sam's clubs are selling "Pork Shoulder Butts", and (at least) some Restaurant Depots are selling "Pork Butts Bone In"....

Where's a boy to buy his pork?????? :-P

roksmith
01-31-2011, 05:45 PM
Don't try to confuse the issue. You must be trying to cheat, otherwise you would understand the rule.

ClayHill
01-31-2011, 05:59 PM
According to the official IMPS specifications for a Boston Butt, if you take a whole shoulder and cut off the picnic.... everything left above the picnic is a Boston Butt.....

But most people don't find them that way in their stores. Another horizontal cut has been made that removes the meat above what you are used to seeing. What remains though, is still a Boston Butt. So there is a lot of meat you aren't used to seeing on your Boston Butt that is still officially part of the Boston Butt.

from what I understand, the top isn't cut(ie money muscle) on a Boston butt.......only two parts come from the shoulder, the top and the bottom........name them what you want.

This video is the best way to see it........the money muscle is at the very top of the shoulder. This is a small pig

YouTube - Jeffrey Ruhalter how to butcher a pig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA7-KCBPvss)