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LT72884
01-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Last night i made some chili rojo with pork butt cut up and cooked for a couple of hours. The pork is completely cooked. Here is my issue. i left it out over night, well just about 2 cups cuz i couldnt find room in the fridge. My mom says i should throw it away especially because it is pork. I said i could boil it for 15 minutes to kill anything if there in fact IS anything that grew. I know that a fridge slows down the process of bacteria growth (polio was this way) but it was only out for 12 hours or less.

What am i missing?

thanks guys

FredR500
01-16-2011, 03:34 PM
Listen to your mama. It's only 2 cups, and if you (or anyone else) gets sick in the next
month it will because you didn't listen to her.

If mama's not happy no one is happy.
Fred

LT72884
01-16-2011, 03:43 PM
Listen to your mama. It's only 2 cups, and if you (or anyone else) gets sick in the next
month it will because you didn't listen to her.

If mama's not happy no one is happy.
Fred


ok, will do. But i would like to know why. SHouldnt boiling it kill anything. Im not doubting. im interested in learning because i like to learn

thanks fred

smoque shack
01-16-2011, 03:46 PM
lolol,

eat it and see if you make a run for the border!........lolol......not me tho.

bbqbull
01-16-2011, 04:00 PM
Please read this thread. Hopefully it will awnser your questions and prevent you or others from getting ill.

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18031

chopshop
01-16-2011, 04:08 PM
dude throw it out. listen to yo momma boy. 4 hours is about max. also boiling stuff isnt a fool proof way of getting rid of bacteria, handling the food properly is. The thing that cracks me up on this forum is everyone is so up on what the holding temps are and what the proper temp for this and the proper temp for that. i would love for someone to start a pole on proper cooling methods instead of holding temps. considering 90% of the people here can use that info more than holding temp info. Look it up. 2 STAGE COOLING METHOD!!!

LT72884
01-16-2011, 04:13 PM
yeah i threw it out. it was not that much anyway. thanks guys

big blue bbq
01-16-2011, 04:58 PM
Heating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they poop in to the food.

LT72884
01-16-2011, 07:59 PM
Heating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they poop in to the food.

whoa hey, back up...

So boiling it will kill the bacteria but not the toxins? How does that work. Crap, now i need to sign up for a chemistry class. That is very interesting to know.

ClayHill
01-16-2011, 08:05 PM
Heating will kill bacteria, but not the toxins they poop in to the food.

I need a little clarification, the bacteria poop toxins into the food?

mmmmeat
01-16-2011, 08:30 PM
I need a little clarification, the bacteria poop toxins into the food?

everything that lives has waste bacteria's waste is toxins

chopshop
01-17-2011, 09:15 AM
everything that lives has waste bacteria's waste is toxins

toxins are a delicacy in 3rd world countries

jestridge
01-17-2011, 09:59 AM
We live in a santize society our bodies can't take it.

chambersuac
01-17-2011, 10:20 AM
dude throw it out. listen to yo momma boy. 4 hours is about max. also boiling stuff isnt a fool proof way of getting rid of bacteria, handling the food properly is. The thing that cracks me up on this forum is everyone is so up on what the holding temps are and what the proper temp for this and the proper temp for that. i would love for someone to start a pole on proper cooling methods instead of holding temps. considering 90% of the people here can use that info more than holding temp info. Look it up. 2 STAGE COOLING METHOD!!!

Go right ahead, I'm sure you'll get some responses.

Dr_KY
01-17-2011, 11:04 AM
Pizza with sausage and mushrooms left out overnight.

OL' Timer
01-17-2011, 05:43 PM
dude throw it out. listen to yo momma boy. 4 hours is about max. also boiling stuff isnt a fool proof way of getting rid of bacteria, handling the food properly is. The thing that cracks me up on this forum is everyone is so up on what the holding temps are and what the proper temp for this and the proper temp for that. i would love for someone to start a pole on proper cooling methods instead of holding temps. considering 90% of the people here can use that info more than holding temp info. Look it up. 2 STAGE COOLING METHOD!!!Did you take a HACCP course? If you did you should know that boiling does take care of the bacteria, but NOT the toxins. The toxins is what makes you sick or can kill. If I was in a restaurant I might use the 2 stage, but when I was I used an ice paddle. When you are vending its impractical to use the 2 stage. I take all meat from warming box and put in 2.5 gal baggies and layer them in my coolers with ice between. Course this time of year when the temps are in teens you can start by laying the bags on the table out of the sun. MOHO with 40+ years as a cert Chef

LT72884
01-17-2011, 09:02 PM
Did you take a HACCP course? If you did you should know that boiling does take care of the bacteria, but NOT the toxins. The toxins is what makes you sick or can kill. If I was in a restaurant I might use the 2 stage, but when I was I used an ice paddle. When you are vending its impractical to use the 2 stage. I take all meat from warming box and put in 2.5 gal baggies and layer them in my coolers with ice between. Course this time of year when the temps are in teens you can start by laying the bags on the table out of the sun. MOHO with 40+ years as a cert Chef

If the extreme heat kills the bacteria, it should kill the toxins. I dont see how it cant.

thanks

mmmmeat
01-17-2011, 09:41 PM
Toxins are chemicals...can't kill chemicals...ya ever shot bleach..it still cleans afterwards ;) not that I have ever.....

But yea...toxins are chemical by products not living cells therefore cannot be "killed" they will remain

landarc
01-17-2011, 10:02 PM
The toxins are also released as a function of the bacteria dying. Toxins do not die, and cooking will only affect certain toxins, as heat can destroy certain chemical bonds, but, it can get pretty complicated if you start to get into the chemistry of it all. The important thing is to remember that food should be cooled and stored quickly.

If you really want to get into the chemistry of food, there are resources out there that can really explain the processes of decay and the organisms that lead to said decay. I can't see a reason to do that unless you really love science.

LT72884
01-17-2011, 10:17 PM
The toxins are also released as a function of the bacteria dying. Toxins do not die, and cooking will only affect certain toxins, as heat can destroy certain chemical bonds, but, it can get pretty complicated if you start to get into the chemistry of it all. The important thing is to remember that food should be cooled and stored quickly.

If you really want to get into the chemistry of food, there are resources out there that can really explain the processes of decay and the organisms that lead to said decay. I can't see a reason to do that unless you really love science.
I LOVE science. thats why i picked the major i did for school. haha

I was thinking that toxins were in organic and therefore not living. I would love to read about the chemical bonds of food and what heat does to some of them and what not landarc. however, since i am very in-experienced, i would not know what keywords to google.

I am very interested in the chemistry of it. i think my second post here said something about that.. maybe. haha

thanks

LT72884
01-17-2011, 10:19 PM
Toxins are chemicals...can't kill chemicals...ya ever shot bleach..it still cleans afterwards ;) not that I have ever.....

But yea...toxins are chemical by products not living cells therefore cannot be "killed" they will remain

when you say shot, do you mean like a drink? like a shot of whiskey?

LOL, jk

LT72884
01-17-2011, 10:22 PM
If it is important to store and cool food fast, then how does one serve, lets say, a rib roast. you dont want cold rib roast. So im guessing it is importanat to keep it warm somehow with out the meat cooking any further. How does one keep the rib roast warm but still at medium rare?

tahnks

mmmmeat
01-17-2011, 10:22 PM
when you say shot, do you mean like a drink? like a shot of whiskey?

LOL, jk

Ha ha no I mean with a gun....i dunno why...just sounded like the thing to say

LT72884
01-17-2011, 10:49 PM
LOL, ok i get your logic now... not really.. haha jk.

I took you serious for a minute or two so it worked. haha

landarc
01-17-2011, 11:20 PM
Okay, if you are interested, then you must certainly understand that all elements consist of organic and non-organic chemicals, that is to say carbon based and non-carbon based. This includes living organisms. Thus, when organisms such as bacteria die, their constituent chemicals break down. These chemical can go into solution in chemical compounds that end up being toxic to life. It has a lot to do with the development of toxic protein compounds, some of which are heat stable.

I would suggest searching for toxins+bacteria+food+poisoning

LT72884
01-17-2011, 11:33 PM
Okay, if you are interested, then you must certainly understand that all elements consist of organic and non-organic chemicals, that is to say carbon based and non-carbon based. This includes living organisms. Thus, when organisms such as bacteria die, their constituent chemicals break down. These chemical can go into solution in chemical compounds that end up being toxic to life. It has a lot to do with the development of toxic protein compounds, some of which are heat stable.

I would suggest searching for toxins+bacteria+food+poisoning

AH YEAH, this is the stuff i LOVE. I love learning the science of why things do what they do. I thank you VERY VERY much.

Do you have a degree in science or some sort of background in chemistry?

LT72884
01-17-2011, 11:42 PM
ok so i have found out that staph produces toxins. Now do ALL bacteria produce toxins or is it only certain ones?

thankx

mmmmeat
01-17-2011, 11:45 PM
Do you have a degree in science or some sort of background in chemistry?

He IS the great LANDARC!!! HE KNOWS ALL......in fact...he drew all of this up weeks in advance knowing you would ask...that's how good he is

LT72884
01-18-2011, 12:17 AM
thats right, stump the landarc.

Ok so i have a second question, what should i do with the cooking pan that had the chili rojo in it that i throw out? if boiling does not break the bonds of the toxins binding to the water and food particles, then my pan must be contaminated..

mmmmeat
01-18-2011, 12:29 AM
Bleach....:) a couple shots should do ....bwahahahaha...that came full turn...c'mon gotta admit that's funny

LT72884
01-18-2011, 01:18 AM
Bleach....:) a couple shots should do ....bwahahahaha...that came full turn...c'mon gotta admit that's funny

HAHAHA thats AWESOME right there. shots like a shot of whiskey? HAHA jk. so your sayin use a toxin to break apart and wash away toxins?

ok sounds good. Thats like drinking alchehol to break the addiction of alchehol

chopshop
01-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Did you take a HACCP course? If you did you should know that boiling does take care of the bacteria, but NOT the toxins. The toxins is what makes you sick or can kill. If I was in a restaurant I might use the 2 stage, but when I was I used an ice paddle. When you are vending its impractical to use the 2 stage. I take all meat from warming box and put in 2.5 gal baggies and layer them in my coolers with ice between. Course this time of year when the temps are in teens you can start by laying the bags on the table out of the sun. MOHO with 40+ years as a cert Chef

what does HACCP have to do with a guy who leaves out his dinner last night? vending and restaurant work have nothing to do with his question. i feel that too many people are way too concerned with holding temps when they dont need to be. most people on this forum arent holding at any temp, they cook it and they eat it. I'll bet that teaching the holding temp isnt as useful as teaching the proper way to cool the food that their freezing. i cant tell you the last time i went to a friends house and they were temping the food they cooked for me. believe me dude in know that toxins arent killed by boiling and you dont need a haccp course to get that info. dont forget that im not the one eating chili that someone left on the counter top for the last 2 days.

landarc
01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
I would suggest you wash the pot, I use dishwashing soap not bleach. In fact, bleach is not a cleansing agent, it is a disinfecting and bleaching agent. A proper cleansing agent is soap. Yes, oddly, soap is used to clean things.

I am not a scientist, although I know a chemist, who geeks out on me from time to time. Actually, my sister and brother have science backgrounds as well. I draw pictures of trees and pavement. But, I love to read about science and food and food. What else did you ask?

landarc
01-18-2011, 07:56 PM
Oh yeah, about bacteria and toxins, no. All bacteria produce stuff, some is toxic some is not.

LT72884
01-19-2011, 01:44 PM
I would suggest you wash the pot, I use dishwashing soap not bleach. In fact, bleach is not a cleansing agent, it is a disinfecting and bleaching agent. A proper cleansing agent is soap. Yes, oddly, soap is used to clean things.

I am not a scientist, although I know a chemist, who geeks out on me from time to time. Actually, my sister and brother have science backgrounds as well. I draw pictures of trees and pavement. But, I love to read about science and food and food. What else did you ask?

LOL, i know to wash the pan but wont that just spread the toxins around? Soap is antibacterial but i assume not anti toxin unless the smeicals in soap can break covalient bonds. But i thouhgt only heat could break those types of bonds. maybe its not covalient im thinking of.

But yeah, i thought soap would just spread the toxins around. Though, most i imagine will be washed away. haha

OHHH, you like to read eh? i wish i could do that. i CANT STAND to read books unless i HAVE TO for school.

your a civil engineer then?

Pyle's BBQ
01-19-2011, 05:57 PM
Wow this all started with 2 cups of leftover chili. :nerd:

OL' Timer
01-19-2011, 06:03 PM
what does HACCP have to do with a guy who leaves out his dinner last night? vending and restaurant work have nothing to do with his question. i feel that too many people are way too concerned with holding temps when they dont need to be. most people on this forum arent holding at any temp, they cook it and they eat it. I'll bet that teaching the holding temp isnt as useful as teaching the proper way to cool the food that their freezing. i cant tell you the last time i went to a friends house and they were temping the food they cooked for me. believe me dude in know that toxins arent killed by boiling and you dont need a haccp course to get that info. dont forget that im not the one eating chili that someone left on the counter top for the last 2 days.It refers to your answers. Seems you have a place of your own and you worry about 2 stage cooling and NOT holding temps is why I suggest a HACCP course. If you are funning people, this is probably not the thread to do it on as there seems to be alot of people on here whom don't know and with your expertise, you should be a great asset to the backyard guys.

landarc
01-19-2011, 06:06 PM
Actually, no, the soap will not break down the toxins. The soap will break the surface tension of the contaminants sitting on the dirty pan, allowing them to be washed away. It has nothing to do with covalent bonds. In combination with an abrasive, which physically removes the contaminants that you no doubt now have allowed to dry onto the pan. The soap then allows for complete rinsing. Sometimes a bar of soap is just a bar of soap, and not an invitation to have sex.

Yakfishingfool
01-19-2011, 10:06 PM
Sometimes a bar of soap is just a bar of soap, and not an invitation to have sex.


OOoooo...gotta write that one down!

LT72884
01-19-2011, 10:48 PM
Sometimes a bar of soap is just a bar of soap, and not an invitation to have sex.

Thanx but i all ready have a girlfriend. haha jk

Never heard this quote so im having a rough time seeing the relation. forgive me of my blinders my good friend

@pyles BBQ: yup, 2 cups of chili.

OL' Timer
01-19-2011, 11:14 PM
Landarc, it's been a long time since I heard that saying. Thanks

LT72884
01-20-2011, 12:58 AM
damn, now i gotta google it.

expatpig
01-20-2011, 09:21 AM
So, if I cook a piece of meat, killing all of the bacteria, place it on a sterile surface at room temperature and leave it overnight, it would not be safe to eat the next morning?

OL' Timer
01-20-2011, 10:34 AM
No, after 3.5 to 4 hrs airborne bacteria, and the bacteria that may not have been killed by the cooking process will flourish and will emit toxins into the meat. Toxins penetrate deeply and fairly fast. Alot of people whom find mold on their cheese just cut it off and consume whats left of it, not knowing that it has toxins in whats left. And yes there are good molds in on on some brands of cheese.

JiveTurkey
01-20-2011, 11:49 AM
jestridge made a good point, in America we're just too sanitized for our own good. Look what happens when Americans go to Mexico, they're blowin arse the entire trip. It's good to know what the health department wants as far as holding and cooling requirements simply as a legal matter to CYA. If some joker eats my food and gets sick it's not my fault, he's weak, I followed the guidelines. Now with that said, at my house, I leave food out all the time because I'm lazy. I still have shirts hanging in the garage that I washed three weeks ago. I'm a single guy that's how it is when you roll solo.

I attribute my ability to eat food that's been left out overnight (***ohhh scary***) from one single event that happened when I was a kid. My cousins and I were swimming in the irrigation canal behind my Uncles house down in central Ca, we had the dogs in there, having a ball. I remember seeing a big log coming towards us so we kept an eye on it as it approached. Once it got to us we moved out of the way to let it go by. Well it wasn't a log, it was a bull that fell in the water and died. Now most kids would have jumped out of that water and went crying to their mommies about the dead rotten animal in the water. Not us. We jumped back in, it gets hot in the friggin valley and we didn't have AC. Now I figure if I survived that without getting sick then I can take a little toxins in my food. My immune system loves a good fight! haha.

So long story short, I say if the food doesn't stink like it's bad then BON APPETITE (for me, not the public too many lawyers out there to take that chance). People worry too much. Especially moms.

10-4. Over. :-P

Dale P
01-20-2011, 02:14 PM
If you boil a turd, is it safe to eat?

chambersuac
01-20-2011, 02:21 PM
If you boil a turd, is it safe to eat?

Mine are - and they are considered a delicacy in some parts of the world. :becky::becky:

LT72884
01-20-2011, 06:14 PM
So let me ask this. Dry aging beef produces mold on the meat. that mold is bacteria and according to this thread, bacteria produces toxins. Therefore dry aged beef has toxins in it.

If we are supposed to cool and store things as fast as possible, then how does bottling work. It takes up to 5 hours for some jars to cool off to room temp. Since the air is not sucked out of the jars at fast speeds, doesnt that leave room for some bacteria to grow and release toxins. Even once they are dead? from lack of o2?

LT72884
01-20-2011, 06:31 PM
jestridge made a good point, in America we're just too sanitized for our own good. Look what happens when Americans go to Mexico, they're blowin arse the entire trip. It's good to know what the health department wants as far as holding and cooling requirements simply as a legal matter to CYA. If some joker eats my food and gets sick it's not my fault, he's weak, I followed the guidelines. Now with that said, at my house, I leave food out all the time because I'm lazy. I still have shirts hanging in the garage that I washed three weeks ago. I'm a single guy that's how it is when you roll solo.

I attribute my ability to eat food that's been left out overnight (***ohhh scary***) from one single event that happened when I was a kid. My cousins and I were swimming in the irrigation canal behind my Uncles house down in central Ca, we had the dogs in there, having a ball. I remember seeing a big log coming towards us so we kept an eye on it as it approached. Once it got to us we moved out of the way to let it go by. Well it wasn't a log, it was a bull that fell in the water and died. Now most kids would have jumped out of that water and went crying to their mommies about the dead rotten animal in the water. Not us. We jumped back in, it gets hot in the friggin valley and we didn't have AC. Now I figure if I survived that without getting sick then I can take a little toxins in my food. My immune system loves a good fight! haha.

So long story short, I say if the food doesn't stink like it's bad then BON APPETITE (for me, not the public too many lawyers out there to take that chance). People worry too much. Especially moms.

10-4. Over. :-P


Your one LUCKY dude. Thats exactly how my mom lost her pancreas. She went swimming in a irrigation ditch behind her house and a month or so later she was in the hospital and her pancreas was shutting down. They tested the water and found a virus in there that kills that organ. She has now been a type one diabetic since the age of 16. Since then, she decided to dedicate her life to medicine. She was on the team that installed the first heart transplant.

but yeah, your dang lucky man

mmmmeat
01-20-2011, 08:06 PM
Landarc will correct me if I'm wrong.....but mold isn't a bacteria...rather a fungus....and just like molds that make cheese what it is the mold that is"used" when ageing meats aren't your typical run of the mill fuzzy fridgerator molds

Odin the Dog
01-21-2011, 12:18 AM
Sometimes a bar of soap is just a bar of soap, and not an invitation to have sex.



















Unless you drop it.:shocked:

Odin the Dog
01-21-2011, 12:26 AM
Thanks for the interesting information guys. I'll be tightening up my kitchen procedures a bit. Especially in regards to proper cooling.

nthole
01-21-2011, 01:10 AM
Thanks for the interesting information guys. I'll be tightening up my kitchen procedures a bit. Especially in regards to proper cooling.

Indeed. And I'm going to stop bring bars of soap to the bar because apparently that isn't going to get me laid.

LT72884
01-21-2011, 02:40 AM
Landarc will correct me if I'm wrong.....but mold isn't a bacteria...rather a fungus....and just like molds that make cheese what it is the mold that is"used" when ageing meats aren't your typical run of the mill fuzzy fridgerator molds

Yeah thats confusing what i said. Let me say this to clarify. Ol timer stated this:

Alot of people whom find mold on their cheese just cut it off and consume whats left of it, not knowing that it has toxins in whats left.

so i was thinking that with some molds on meat, it could be bad cuz of the toxins. Beef does contain e-coal-i. haha. maybe ill send some dry aged beef to my uncles lab or better yet, my schools lab and see what it turns out to be. Its funny, we will take a bbq sauce to the chem engineers and have them reverse engineer it for us.

bignburlyman
01-21-2011, 11:06 AM
Pizza with sausage and mushrooms left out overnight.

This sound like a hangover breakfast. I always say all the alcohol from the night before makes it safe to eat!:becky:

OL' Timer
01-21-2011, 04:59 PM
Molds (or moulds; see spelling differences (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences) ) are fungi (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Fungi) that grow in the form of multicellular (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Multicellular_organism) filaments called hyphae (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Hyphae).[1] (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/#cite_note-Brock-0) In contrast, microscopic fungi that grow as single cells are called yeasts (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Yeast). A connected network of these tubular branching hyphae has multiple, genetically identical nuclei (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Cell_nucleus) and is considered a single organism, referred to as a colony (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Colony_(biology)) or in more technical terms a mycelium (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/wiki/Mycelium).

Panthers65
01-21-2011, 06:34 PM
Why do I feel like your going to offer me a vast inheritance if I give you my bank account number ever time I read the title of this thread?

Capozzoli
01-23-2011, 09:15 AM
If you boil it (long enough) it will be perfectly safe to eat. The main bacteria to be concerned with after cooking rancid food is botulism. With this bacteria it is not the little buggers that make you sick it is their waste products.

...But boiling for a good period of time will denature the toxins left behind by botulism or any other bacteria.

Now, if it is old, rancid and has botulism you can boil it long enough to be safe. However it will no doubt taste something like vomit and fecal matter mixed.

If you are starving to death it might be recommended, if not. Chuck it.

1. _C. botulinum_ bacterium dies at 212 F/ 100 C.
2. _C. botulinum_ spores die at 240 F/ 116 C.
3. Botulism toxin denatures at 185 F/ 85 C.
**(All temperatures must be maintained for least 15 minutes, and the heat must be consistent throughout the food, fluid, and jar.)**
4. _C. botulinum_ spores cannot hatch in strong acid solutions of pH 4.6 or below. (Some sources claim pH 4.7.)
5. _C. botulinum_ cannot grow, develop, or multiply in food with a water content of less than 35%. (Food dehydrators have another set of toxic pests to worry about, see IV.6 about aflatoxin.)