PDA

View Full Version : rib help..please..


Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-05-2010, 09:58 AM
I dont seem to be able to get flavors deep in to ribs. Any one have any ideas? I would like to get the flavor deep inside with a little bit of heat.

I use spares.
I dont marinate.
I actually wrap in plastic wrap with a light coating of a commercial rub for probably 10 hours (really light coating). I dont think its the rub. Do I need more time? A heavier coat?

no mustard or anything. I did coat once with Franks red hot and it didnt seem to make a difference.

3-2-1 (basically)

I foil with parkay, honey, brown sugar, and agave.

sauce at the last 20 min. or so, and nothing...no real flavor...actually rather bland. Cooked well, just bland..

I also am using peach wood that is on the green side.

any thoughts..

Sal

Balls Casten
11-05-2010, 10:41 AM
Are you wraping meat up or down? I'd suggest try meat side down when you wrap.

altomari8868
11-05-2010, 10:44 AM
I agree, wrap them down. I also use the Slabs rub and it gives them great flavor with some kick....

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-05-2010, 10:48 AM
I actually do go meat down.

I havent tried slabs on ribs yet but that may be next.

do you reseason after you pull from the foil?

Boshizzle
11-05-2010, 12:37 PM
To me, lasting flavor in ribs comes from rendered fat rather than the rub. I have got my best results by cooking them in a manner that allows the fat in the meat to render out and permeate the meat. Foiling can remove a lot of flavor and make them bland too. So, the less time in foil the better, IMO.

Your best bet may be to experiment with different cooking temps and foil time rather than when you apply the rub.

Smokedelic
11-05-2010, 12:46 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but how can you tell if the flavor is deep inside the rib or just on the outside?

When most people bite into a rib, they bite through from the top and the bottom and the whole bite comes off the bone. How can you tell if the flavor is coming from deep inside the rib, or from the top and bottom?

I've never seen anyone take a bite of a rib just trying to get the meat deep inside the middle of the rib...but that's just me.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but how can you tell if the flavor is deep inside the rib or just on the outside?

When most people bite into a rib, they bite through from the top and the bottom and the whole bite comes off the bone. How can you tell if the flavor is coming from deep inside the rib, or from the top and bottom?

I've never seen anyone take a bite of a rib just trying to get the meat deep inside the middle of the rib...but that's just me.

maybe I should have phrased the question differenty, I am attempting to get a more flavorfull rib as the ones I have been cooking as of late have be almost flavorless. My thought was if the "rub" was able to gain deeper penatration it would help. I was asking for assistance in providing a more flavorfull rib.

Is your post an attempt to assist? Or are you attempting to be critical because I didnt phrase my question in a way you approve? Any assistance is more then welcome.

sitnfat
11-05-2010, 01:40 PM
I don't put a light coat on my ribs. I can't see the meat once I have dusters them they sit in a cooler for thirty minutes to an hour then right on the smoker. They are in foil for maybe an hour

Capn Kev
11-05-2010, 01:48 PM
Are you looking for comp style ribs, or for everyday? Also, have you tried Kosmo's rib soak? If not, give that a try.

I rub my ribs 4-6 hours before putting them on the smoker, and I season both sides after removing the membrane. I allow them to rest after rubbing, meat side up in the fridge. I then bring them to room temp just before cooking. I also use the foil process, and foil meat side down. I seldom have problems getting the rub seasoning flavor into the meat.

Good luck. :thumb:

landarc
11-05-2010, 02:33 PM
For home consumption I use a light coating of rub, or none at all beyond salt, pepper and some garlic. It gives me a nice porky flavor which is what I want. If I am cooking for others, or, if I ever were to enter another comp, I rub moderate to heavily, and I do mean rub, not sprinkle on meat. I do it more like over night if possible, and wrap with meat side down in plastic wrap. This will give you the best chance of getting rub flavor into the meat. Your rub will have to have salt in it of course. In essence you are using a process similar to brining to create more flavor in the meat. As the moisture of the meat equalizes, you have the effect of initially removing moisture from the meat, and then replacing it with the now seasoned moisture.

I would also recommend trying out different sources of ribs, some just taste better than others, different temperatures and timing, as that will affect flavor also. I also agree with the statement that foiling (steaming) mutes flavors a bit, so timing that also plays a role.

Jorge
11-05-2010, 02:44 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but how can you tell if the flavor is deep inside the rib or just on the outside?

When most people bite into a rib, they bite through from the top and the bottom and the whole bite comes off the bone. How can you tell if the flavor is coming from deep inside the rib, or from the top and bottom?

I've never seen anyone take a bite of a rib just trying to get the meat deep inside the middle of the rib...but that's just me.

There's some gold there, if you think about it.

maybe I should have phrased the question differenty, I am attempting to get a more flavorfull rib as the ones I have been cooking as of late have be almost flavorless. My thought was if the "rub" was able to gain deeper penatration it would help. I was asking for assistance in providing a more flavorfull rib.

Is your post an attempt to assist? Or are you attempting to be critical because I didnt phrase my question in a way you approve? Any assistance is more then welcome.

I think he's making a point about where flavor comes from on a competition rib.

If you aren't getting the flavor you need...I'd check to make sure the product you are using is fresh, and has been stored properly. Heat and sun will kill a rub over time. Maybe it's time to change products, to find the depth of flavor you are looking for.

And just for grins, try a heavier coating of product, for a shorter period of time and let it sit out for a bit (assuming the meat is cold to begin with, and that you will either return it to a fridge or cooler or cook it before it reaches a dangerous temp). Then return to your normal process and see if it makes a difference for you.

HandsomeSwede
11-05-2010, 03:11 PM
More salt in your rub, less time in the foil. Salt equals flavor and the diffusion of your rub moves from the area of high salt concentration (rub) to low concentration (rib).

Your ribs will "take" smoke until they reach 140 degrees. If you are foiling at the three hour mark, prime smoke time becomes steam time in the foil. I often do not foil and if I do it is for no more than 45 minutes.

Smoke'n Ice
11-05-2010, 03:23 PM
POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS FOODS (PHF) should not be exposed to the temperature danger zone (41F to 135F) for more than four hours total, including time spent in preparation, cooling, and reheating. These are cumulative numbers from start to finish. This should be considered when marinating or allowing to come to room temperature prior to cooking.

Use of a vacuum tumbler will assist in getting the flavor to penetrate the meat and drastically reduce the time frame.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-05-2010, 03:25 PM
thanks so really good info. gonna throw a rack on Sunday and see what happens.

INmitch
11-05-2010, 04:46 PM
The guy that won ribs at Degaque applied rub (medium amount just covering the meat) 2 hrs prior to going on a 250 degree smoker for 2.5 hrs befor wrapping meat side down for 1 hr. Then saucing & letting the smoker to drop to 220 till turnin.:thumb: Few minor details left out but that's the basics of what he did.

BBQchef33
11-05-2010, 07:00 PM
First thing i would consider is a heavier layer of rub, and less time. 10 hours or overnight with a heavy coat of rub has a good change of curing the ribs and they come out tasting like ham. You havent seen this due to the "lighter" coating, but your not getting the penetration you'd expect.

Put a heavier coating, and leave for up to 2 hours.(that number is based on Salt content). Saltier rubs will transfer the flavor deeper and faster, and again, watch out u dont cross the line and turn them ham. If you are using a low salt rub, then you may want to add a light layer of kosher salt to the ribs under the rub. If not, let them sit longer.

Some of the rubs i use: Smoking guns hot, or slabs Perk up your pork works well with a 2 hour sit.
Yardbird I go less time(45 mins to an hour).

Spicewine has very little salt, I add my own and can judge the rest time based on that.

Cimmaron docs, dizzy pigs, and the Opie Que line I have gone for 3 hours..

Add at least 3 light recoats of rub while they are cooking. I go with a sweet heat type during the cook process. I think this is an important step to give u what youre looking for.

I only foil IF I HAVE TO BECAUSE OF TIME. Foil and return meat side down. if u can get awy without foiling, you will have(my personal preference), a nicer dryer finish/light bark on the ribs.

For everyone else, I lightly sauce last 20 minutes and ramp up the heat. My rack get NO sauce. :)

ClayHill
11-05-2010, 09:43 PM
I lightly cover my ribs with a high salt content rub.......(made by a guy in Michigan:rolleyes:)lightly, right before its put on the smoker, I can still see the meat through it. I agree w/handsomeswede, dont underestimate salt

I only foil to melt brown sugar. Every time I've foiled longer my ribs came out tasting flat.

SmokeInDaEye
11-05-2010, 11:23 PM
i boil my ribs...

warren.miller
11-05-2010, 11:47 PM
I have never heard of foiling taking the flavor out of the ribs??

boogiesnap
11-06-2010, 02:08 AM
I have never heard of foiling taking the flavor out of the ribs??


from what i understand the steaming in the foil seeps flavor out of any meat.

this can be offset somewhat by the addition of sugar, sauce, broth, rub, etc.

i'm no authority on the subject however. i don't use this method.

for the OP.

i have had very good results by lightly rubbing meat(low salt rub)just prior to cooking. then @ 2 hours in(i cook HNF @ 3.5 hours total for st louis spares)pull em out cover both sides with rub and spray with a mixture of grenadine and AJ. back on for another hour or so. wait for the pig honey and shut the cooker down. leave it for @ 20 minutes then set sauce for @ 10 minutes.

CBQ
11-06-2010, 10:03 AM
Most comp teams foil to put an extra layer of flavor on the ribs. I am not so sure I buy the "steaming takes out flavor" idea.

Use every opportunity to add a layer of flavor.

Rub goes on before smoking.

Add rub, sugar, and anything else that inspires you when you wrap.

When you unwrap, add more rub, sauce, and put 'em back in to set the sauce.

Flavor will be fine.

Boshizzle
11-06-2010, 10:25 AM
I buy the idea that foiling ribs dilutes their flavor because it does. Yes, concentrating water into anything dilutes flavor. Water is a flavor killer. There is no flavor in water. The idea is to concentrate flavor not dilute it. You concentrate flavor by reducing the amount of water in food. Beef stock reduction, wine reduction, syrups are many times reductions, etc. are made to reduce the amount of water in the food which concentrates flavor. That's also the idea behind aged beef. The moisture in the beef dissipates as the meat ages and that concentrates the beef flavor.

I also am not so sure that most comp teams foil their ribs to add an extra layer of flavor. While you can impart flavor into meat with a marinade or by boiling it in a flavorful broth, eventually, you have to get the meat out of the liquid and in the smoker where the heat begins to caramelize sugars, render fat, and reduce water content which, in turn, concentrates flavor.

Lots of teams foil ribs simply to gain tenderness quicker without excessively drying the outside of the ribs. Sure, moisture is important but too much makes meat bland. Which is why many teams that foil also return the ribs to the smoker after they were in foil to dry them a little and concentrate flavors.

I stand by my statement that the most important thing needed to get good flavor from ribs is proper fat rendering. Salt is a given, but if the fat doesn't properly render for the right amount of time or the fat renders too much, the meat flavor will be bland. The fat inside the meat melts into the meat fibers and spreads flavor and the seasonings into the meat. Foiling ribs can cause water to remove the fat that is needed for flavor.

If your ribs are bland after you have let them sit in rub over night I really don't think the problem is the rub or the length of time they are marinating. Overnight is a long time to marinade ribs and if they are still bland after an overnight sit in rub, I think you need to look elsewhere for a solution. I offered one so, you can try it or just claim I don't know what I'm talking about. But, I have been through the whole "my ribs are bland" thing and the info I posted is what I found to improve my ribs.

The juiciness of meat comes from two thing: the moisture (water) that is released when you bite into meat fibers and the the production of saliva stimulated by the presence of animal fat in your mouth. The water will not hold any flavor. That's the nature of water. The fat will hold flavors; it's own and the flavors in your rub.

Smokedelic
11-06-2010, 10:38 AM
maybe I should have phrased the question differenty, I am attempting to get a more flavorfull rib as the ones I have been cooking as of late have be almost flavorless. My thought was if the "rub" was able to gain deeper penatration it would help. I was asking for assistance in providing a more flavorfull rib.

Is your post an attempt to assist? Or are you attempting to be critical because I didnt phrase my question in a way you approve? Any assistance is more then welcome.
Ease up...my question was an attempt to clarify. For larger cuts of meat, one usually is concerned about getting flavor deep inside the meat, but I'd never heard that concern with smaller, thinner cuts of meat.

To increase flavor, as others have suggested, add flavors(your rub, sauce, glaze, etc.) later in the cooking process. For instance, take some of your rub, grind it up in a coffee grinder until it's a fine powder, and add a light coat of it to your ribs just before you slice them. The fine powder will dissolve instantly and will give your ribs more "pop".

Smokedelic
11-06-2010, 10:40 AM
The guy that won ribs at Degaque applied rub (medium amount just covering the meat) 2 hrs prior to going on a 250 degree smoker for 2.5 hrs befor wrapping meat side down for 1 hr. Then saucing & letting the smoker to drop to 220 till turnin.:thumb: Few minor details left out but that's the basics of what he did.
Do you know this for a fact, or are you just spreading rumors??:thumb:

landarc
11-06-2010, 04:09 PM
I am not so sure I agree with Boshizzle about water holding no flavor, water alone is rather simple and lightly flavored, however, it is an excellent solvent with a little heat added. That being said, water and steam do have a tendency to mute flavors, I believe this is because of water's ability to blend flavors, which removes complexity from the rub and meat. I am in agreement that the primary reason for foiling is to introduce the process of steaming which aids in breaking down both collagen and protein, through the process of using heat to denature the proteins. Done perfectly, this will result in a more moist product, miss by just a few minutes and you have the curious dichotomy of wet yet dry meat. The steam in an enclosed environment is much hotter than the heat you can create without any foil.

Lake Dogs
11-06-2010, 05:42 PM
We've had pretty good success with ribs in competitions when I've cooked ribs.

First, I use baby backs, and this factors in to many of the decisions. As soon as
we can get meat inspected I remove the membranes and then immerse them in a
cool mixture of apple juice, worchestershire and water. They'll stay overnight, and
I keep a little ice on them all night. About 2 hours before going on the smoker I
take them out, pat them dry a little, and then apply our rub on both sides fairly
liberally (we have no sugars in our rub). On the smoker (250 degrees) for an hour
and a half. We spritz twice, a mixture of apple juice and worchestershire. At 90
minutes we foil them and apply the last heavy spritz. I keep them in another 3 hours
on foil. We've had success with both presenting just like this (sans sauce) or a small
amount of our sauce (that works well with the rub and apple juice) for the last 3
minutes on heat. The apple juice has helped break down and render the fats as well
as has enough sugar in it to give our ribs a nice sweet and hot (spice) balance.

Boshizzle
11-06-2010, 07:39 PM
I am not so sure I agree with Boshizzle about water holding no flavor, water alone is rather simple and lightly flavored, however, it is an excellent solvent with a little heat added. That being said, water and steam do have a tendency to mute flavors, I believe this is because of water's ability to blend flavors, which removes complexity from the rub and meat. I am in agreement that the primary reason for foiling is to introduce the process of steaming which aids in breaking down both collagen and protein, through the process of using heat to denature the proteins. Done perfectly, this will result in a more moist product, miss by just a few minutes and you have the curious dichotomy of wet yet dry meat. The steam in an enclosed environment is much hotter than the heat you can create without any foil.

I don't think we are that far off in our statements. Water can hold flavor, but it dillutes it. The trick is to get the water to leave the fat and the flavors of the seasoning behind.

For example, rub meat down with salt and the salt will extract water. But, at a point it will cause water carrying the salt back into the meat. The trick from that point is to cook the meat in a way that some of the water is evaporated out while it leaves the salt and some of the fat (and other flavors) behind.

Boshizzle
11-06-2010, 07:40 PM
We've had pretty good success with ribs in competitions when I've cooked ribs.

First, I use baby backs, and this factors in to many of the decisions. As soon as
we can get meat inspected I remove the membranes and then immerse them in a
cool mixture of apple juice, worchestershire and water. They'll stay overnight, and
I keep a little ice on them all night. About 2 hours before going on the smoker I
take them out, pat them dry a little, and then apply our rub on both sides fairly
liberally (we have no sugars in our rub). On the smoker (250 degrees) for an hour
and a half. We spritz twice, a mixture of apple juice and worchestershire. At 90
minutes we foil them and apply the last heavy spritz. I keep them in another 3 hours
on foil. We've had success with both presenting just like this (sans sauce) or a small
amount of our sauce (that works well with the rub and apple juice) for the last 3
minutes on heat. The apple juice has helped break down and render the fats as well
as has enough sugar in it to give our ribs a nice sweet and hot (spice) balance.


You are very generous in sharing your process. Thanks for the tips!

warren.miller
11-06-2010, 10:28 PM
I think these are great tid bit on cooking. Everyone has their own way. But it is important to keep learning.

Skip
11-06-2010, 11:03 PM
If you make sure your foil is tight and can't create steam you will change the way they cook in the foil. You won't "steam the flavor out".

JD McGee
11-06-2010, 11:04 PM
Try this...the night before your comp...apply a light mustard slather and moderate dusting of rub to both sides of your ribs...wrap in plastic wrap and cooler overnight. About an hour or so before you toss your ribs on the smoker give them another moderate dusting of rub.

Toss them on the smoker @ 250-275 (water in the pan if using a bullet...hickory and apple for smoke woods) bone side down for two hours...spritz with apple juice at the 2 hour mark then every 1/2 hour until the temp between the bones hits 185 then slather both sides with sauce...after 15-20 minutes sauce the meat side again to set the glaze for another 15 minutes...remove and let rest for 15 minutes before slicing...touch up with a little more sauce before boxing...easy peasy...:thumb: Good luck...

Ford
11-07-2010, 07:35 AM
I don't put a light coat on my ribs. I can't see the meat once I have dusters them they sit in a cooler for thirty minutes to an hour then right on the smoker. They are in foil for maybe an hour
Somebody was paying attention. I may even put on just a bit more now than I did last Spring.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-07-2010, 03:27 PM
This has been an amazingly informative thread!! here are some pics of a rack of BB that I am doing as I type.
the rack was just under 3 1/2 pound
removed the membrane
I rubbed (actually rubbed not just dusted) and let marinate for 2 hours.
on the cooker at 225 (ish) using peach and cherry.
I have been spritzing every 1/2 hour with apple cider
at the 3 hour point I give the ribes another light dusting of rub.
Im thinking the finish point will be at the 5 hour mark.

didnt do any trimming, but my next step is to research if the top (loin??) part of the ribs needs to be "shaved" down some. I ll try to post more pics when Im done. I dont plan on foiling or even saucing, Im just looking for the smoke and rib flavors.

landarc
11-07-2010, 03:58 PM
Man, that is a good looking rack you got going there.

ClayHill
11-07-2010, 04:51 PM
looks great.......how was the taste???

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
11-07-2010, 08:05 PM
looks great.......how was the taste???

I actually liked the taste I think the 2 hours in the rub and the hit again 1/2 way into the cook helped. I didnt cook them very well, fire got a little hot and i went way over time while I was pulling 4 butts for a party. This was probably only the 2nd rack of BB that I have ever cooked, gonna try it again with spares.

Big Ugly's BBQ
11-08-2010, 08:16 AM
Part of the problem is cooking with BB's:doh:................



After this last weekend, I have a new appreciation for BB's, they were good to us.