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Prairie Smoke
10-29-2010, 01:05 PM
I've never posted boxes for feedback before, but may as well do it now... My rib box from the 2010 Jack.


Now... the article. A Judge's experience at the World Championships. Interesting viewpoints...
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/10/the-jack-daniels-world-champtionship-invitational-barbecue-2010-lynchburg-tennessee.html (http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/10/the-jack-daniels-world-champtionship-invitational-barbecue-2010-lynchburg-tennessee.html)

Ribs look familiar? :cool: :cool:
(They do look better from the Jack media camera, they were a bit washed out from my flash I guess...)

Seriously though... I am open to any feedback you have. My first impression is that the parsley is a bit uneven and distracting around the edges... And that right rib - was pushed in closer to the rest right after the photo was taken.

dgassaway
10-29-2010, 01:11 PM
Hey Rob,

I assume your 7th rib is under these...right? Sorry...bad angle. I see the rest of them now, I should have looked at the photo in the article first.

I want to know where these restaurants are that serve better than comp que.

Candy Sue
10-29-2010, 01:14 PM
I count 10 ribs!

Lake Dogs
10-29-2010, 01:33 PM
Those look pretty great to me. Shiny, but no so that they look fake; just appetizing.
The color screams "eat me". I can almost smell them from here! Yeah, the greens
need a little work, but frankly they aren't supposed to be taking that in to account. But, if they do, then you can't go back and say "hey, they took off a point because
my greens were.....".

Buster Dog BBQ
10-29-2010, 02:26 PM
The judge who wrote this was either at a bad table or has no clue. Saying the brisket and pork don't compare or restaurants throughout the Carolina's and Texas.

Boshizzle
10-29-2010, 04:24 PM
The color on the ribs is awesome. Nice job! If these were in a KCBS event I'd give them 9 on appearance if what I am seeing that looks like shiner in the photo isn't really a shiner.

Yes, the greens need some work, but the meat looks really good.

mrichard
10-29-2010, 04:33 PM
That judge must have gotten bad tables or he is stupid....Funny thing is there are not any average cooks at the Jack so he must have lost his mind.

swamprb
10-29-2010, 05:59 PM
Let's see the rest of your boxes Rob!!

Rich Parker
10-29-2010, 06:23 PM
Let's see the rest of your boxes Rob!!

I seen the pic of your chicken box. Awesome! :clap2:

landarc
10-29-2010, 06:32 PM
That is a nice looking box of ribs. Makes me wonder how they taste, which I suppose is what it is all about.

I was not impressed by that author, but, I can understand the misunderstanding that any of the BBQ at 'The Jack' is meant to compare to what you prefer at home. I don't drive my car like I am at Daytona when I am going to the store to get milk.

Jorge
10-29-2010, 08:33 PM
I grew up eating brisket in Lockhart. I wouldn't turn that in and expect to get a call at the Jack or any other contest. The point is pretty valid. He's not slamming competition BBQ that I can tell, but making the point that restaurant fair and comp BBQ are two different animals.

Capn Kev
10-29-2010, 09:03 PM
That judge must have gotten bad tables or he is stupid....Funny thing is there are not any average cooks at the Jack so he must have lost his mind.

This judge is an idiot, and I thank god we didn't get his table... then again, maybe that's why our ribs tanked at the Jack last week. I've tasted BBQ all around the world. NOWHERE have I found better Q than at BBQ comps. Granted...some of it is WAY too sweet, but a lot of it is spot on. Nowhere have I found more inspiration for my personal backyard cooking & catering than at comps. If someone thinks Gates, Bryant, Famous Dave's, Joe's, etc. can compete with the championship ribs from a good KCBS contest...well, then their palates have been sorely abused. I'd put my comp ribs up against any chain every day of the week! :-D

Capn Kev
10-29-2010, 09:05 PM
That is a nice looking box of ribs. Makes me wonder how they taste, which I suppose is what it is all about.

I was not impressed by that author, but, I can understand the misunderstanding that any of the BBQ at 'The Jack' is meant to compare to what you prefer at home. I don't drive my car like I am at Daytona when I am going to the store to get milk.

Great analogy!

DerrickG
10-29-2010, 09:19 PM
Great color, PARSLEY DOESN'T MATTER...to me, good sheen. I would only take off for uniform size for the #1 and #6 ribs. If there was an 8.5 possible I would but...8. The last contest I judged, you couldn't tell the difference in 4 different rib boxes. All cut and displayed exactly, only minor shade of color was different. Same contest where a judge dropped a piece of brisket on the floor...nearly poked out her eye when it bounced back and smacked her in the face....lol Not really, but she did drop a slice, luckily there was 7 in the box.

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-29-2010, 10:00 PM
Since when is comparing whole hog pulled pork to a pork shoulder fair?

JD McGee
10-29-2010, 10:10 PM
First of all...nice job on your ribs Rob! :thumb: I'm a symmetry freak and like a happy balance of meat and green stuff in my boxes...yours seem to be centered in the middle with a lot of green on the top and bottom...not exactly a picture frame...but that's me. :cool:

Second...about the article...I agree with Jorge in that comp q is a different breed of critter as compared with backyard or hometown...:becky:

SmokinOkie
10-29-2010, 10:47 PM
Here's his bio. Great guy to be a Jack Judge, traveled and ate Q for 2 weeks:

About the author: James Boo has been a barbecue enthusiast since he embarked on a two-week road trip through the American South, eating nothing but barbecue from Virginia to Texas. He's learned a thing or two, but as Serious Eats' Barbecue Bureau Chief he's found that there's plenty more to discover about America's first food. Catch up with his musings on Fridays here at Serious Eats, and check out his narrative food blog

Buster Dog BBQ
10-29-2010, 10:57 PM
Here's his bio. Great guy to be a Jack Judge, traveled and ate Q for 2 weeks:

Two weeks to qualify as a bbq expert for a well known food blog. He should expand his horizons or everything he had to say will be controversial.

Rookie'48
10-29-2010, 11:03 PM
Since when is comparing whole hog pulled pork to a pork shoulder fair?


Since when is comparing ANYTHING fair (or allowed)?

JD McGee
10-30-2010, 08:38 AM
Interesting bucket of worms...does anyone know the percentage of certified judges to celebrity judges for the Jack?

Oops...correction...our appearance score was an 8...6's for taste and texture...my bad...(blurry eye mode)...:icon_blush:

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu311/SouthPawBBQ/The%20Jack%202010/TheJack2010022.jpg

gtsum
10-30-2010, 09:01 AM
nice looking boxes. I was a bit surprised at the article as well.....I have only found one restaurant whose que I honestly thought was better then mine (in Savannah, GA), and the owner was a multiple GC all over the east coast...

Although, at my first comp I attended, I thought a lot of the food I tasted was way, way too sweet...I suppose the point is to have that WOW factor in just a bite or two though?

Buster Dog BBQ
10-30-2010, 09:26 AM
Interesting bucket of worms...does anyone know the percentage of certified judges to celebrity judges for the Jack? While we're on the subject of "qualified judges"...please take a look at our chicken turn in...one judge scored it a 6...for appearance. Do you think it looks like a 6? I don't think so...

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu311/SouthPawBBQ/The%20Jack%202010/TheJack2010022.jpg

Great looking box. I would say strong 8 if not 9. Loittle noon of sauce on right piece of chick above breast.

Big Ugly's BBQ
10-30-2010, 09:54 AM
Great boxes, thank you for sharing this pics. I just went to his blog and left a comment, if anyone wants a laugh this morning.

Buster Dog BBQ
10-30-2010, 10:18 AM
Great boxes, thank you for sharing this pics. I just went to his blog and left a comment, if anyone wants a laugh this morning.
I emailed serious eats and told them they lose credibility with articles like that. Not so much his opinion, but lack of experience to write an article like that. Now had he the experience of a Dr. BBQ per se, then it's another story.

Boshizzle
10-30-2010, 12:46 PM
Interesting bucket of worms...does anyone know the percentage of certified judges to celebrity judges for the Jack?

Oops...correction...our appearance score was an 8...6's for taste and texture...my bad...(blurry eye mode)...:icon_blush:

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu311/SouthPawBBQ/The%20Jack%202010/TheJack2010022.jpg


That's a gorgeous box of chicken. If that one got an 8, I'de love to see a 9.

Tack
10-30-2010, 02:54 PM
Just wondering why all the judges weren't CBJs???

Bentley
10-30-2010, 03:02 PM
Its the mystic of the Jack...

Bourbon Barrel BBQ
10-30-2010, 04:12 PM
The guy had the same basic thoughs on Memphis in May. Basically saying the winner shouldnt be able to call themselves world champion.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/05/memphis-in-may-barbecue-bbq-competition-world-championships.html

CivilWarBBQ
10-30-2010, 05:27 PM
Beautiful! That rib box is a nine all day long.

The chicken ain't bad either.

carlyle
10-31-2010, 11:46 AM
It appears that this "judge" came to the contest with a preset agenda- write an article
for a blog. Can't read his mind but seems his attitude to the pre contest comments ...
best bbq you will ever eat... was, Oh yeah - we'll see about that.

Rookie 48 was on the money - comparing is not fair and in KCBS not allowed for good reason.

Maybe the article was just meant to draw attention to the blog and create controversy. Media would never do that, would they?

This is the best example I have seen for having CBJ's and not celebs as judges.
Even with CBJ's there is ample opportunity for difficulty and controversy. Throwing
a monkey wrench like this example into the works makes unfair treatment of entries
almost certain. My 2 cents worth.

Prairie Smoke
10-31-2010, 07:51 PM
Just wondering why all the judges weren't CBJs???
I'm quite sure ALL the Jack judges are CBJ's... some just get certified that weekend. We sat next to a new judge at the Friday night dinner, who had just been certified that day.
You (Not directed at Tack, just in general...) think a 2 week BBQ tour is insufficient experience? Our new friend from BBQ Hill was the National Sex Columnist for Fox News, Jenny Block. Sweet girl, very entertaining, and she was excited as hell to be judging the next day. Frankly, I'd rather be cooking for her than the Mike Mills and Paul Kirk's of the world, I have a better idea of the target I'm cooking for.

Experience is good - obviously - but something about this mix of judges just seems like an interesting challenge to me.

Balls Casten
11-01-2010, 09:08 AM
Is it appropriate for them to be showing photos of turn-ins?

Both boxes look great by the way.

ique
11-01-2010, 09:59 AM
Experience is good - obviously - but something about this mix of judges just seems like an interesting challenge to me.

Agree, this is what makes the Jack judging so challenging is the extreme mix of newbie and old time judge.

Lake Dogs
11-01-2010, 09:59 AM
The guy had the same basic thoughs on Memphis in May. Basically saying the winner shouldnt be able to call themselves world champion.

http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/05/memphis-in-may-barbecue-bbq-competition-world-championships.html


Aaaaallllllllmost the exact same article. He is at least consistent in that he doesn't care for sweet in BBQ, and prefers the
pepper/vinegar sauces, although he doesn't seem to understand why everyone else prefers sweet... Also, we're allowed
only one sauce (and resulting flavor profile) to come across the table, whereas a restaurant can present 3 or more sauces
to appease most anyone's flavor preference. I dont think he was bashing competition BBQ so much as saying it's "different"
and tends to follow one primary flavor profile; sweet.

Alexa RnQ
11-01-2010, 10:19 AM
This is an old story. Every blogger who sets out to "experience" competition BBQ seems to go in with the mindset that in order to compensate for their complete lack of knowledge, they'll just predetermine that it couldn't be all that great. After all, the brisket isn't like their mom's potroast, and the ribs aren't steamed like Crapplebee's!

We had a guy here like that, who attended one contest, sampled some PC and trashed teams BY NAME in his blog, and had the temerity to publicly state that he could do better. He came to the next contest, predictably had his ass handed to him, and had thirty or so excuses as to why the system was flawed and his food was still better than anything at the contest.

Bloggers exist to rack up views on their site stats. Saying nice things doesn't get you as many repeat hits as saying nasty things. Just like other forms of media that have tried to latch onto competition BBQ, there has to be manufactured conflict and drama because any interest, even negative, is better than no interest.

So predictable. *yawn*

Scottie
11-01-2010, 10:43 AM
Agree, this is what makes the Jack judging so challenging is the extreme mix of newbie and old time judge.


The only folks that beotch about Jack judging are the one's that get their butts handed to them. I personally think they are the most distinguished, respected, knowledgable judges that are on the circuit... :becky:


But seriously, EVERY contest has new judges for their events. Ask cooks what their score sheets look after a contest has a CBJ class the day before. So if you blame bloggers, sex critics or whatever at the Jack. What are the excuses at those other contests? The way I look at the judging at the Jack.... A great majority of those judges have been judging at the Jack since it's inception and if not that long, more than 10 years. How many Master Judges or CBJ's have that much experience judging a World Championship? What makes one better than the others?

I was told early on in my career. If you didn't score well, cook better. To become a champion, you must learn to lose first. More cooks need to practice this.

Jacked UP BBQ
11-01-2010, 10:44 AM
Let me look at this from a different angle. Maybe the food did suck??? Why do all BBQ cooks feel that everyone should be appreciated by the judges? If you have an off day, it happens. It is possible to undercook a brisket or ribs or make a pork butt taste like shart. Why everytime do people throw a comparisson to a restaurant that uses a different cooking method, a lot of people like applebbees or chilis ribs, there is a reason they are out there and pretty busy. I have tasted a lot of comp food out there and a lot of it does suck, including mine. If you take a judge off the street with a good palate and he tastes and over seasooned rib with too much sweetness he will probably judge it down. But an experienced judge will give it a good score because that is the trend of flavors and what they are coached to judge on.

Alexa RnQ
11-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Maybe the food did suck???
It's quite possible that some of it did. 80% of the field were having their first year at the Jack, and anyone can have an off day.

Why do all BBQ cooks feel that everyone should be appreciated by the judges?
I don't think anyone here speaks for all cooks.

Why everytime do people throw a comparisson to a restaurant that uses a different cooking method, a lot of people like applebbees or chilis ribs, there is a reason they are out there and pretty busy.
A lot of people like McRibs, too. Most of them don't know any better. Let's go over to Q-Talk and count how many "Have you become a BBQ snob and can't eat at restaurants anymore?" threads there are.

If you take a judge off the street with a good palate and he tastes and over seasooned rib with too much sweetness he will probably judge it down. But an experienced judge will give it a good score because that is the trend of flavors and what they are coached to judge on.
Can you please give an example from a judging class where judges are "coached" on trends in flavor profiles, or what sweetness level to score well? When we had a Master Judge cook with us recently, in our discussions he emphasized that judges are to evaluate each sample on its own merits, without comparison. I'd be interested to know which areas have judging classes that instruct to favor sweetness.

Smokin' Joe
11-01-2010, 12:01 PM
I think Diva makes a good point he is trying to "sell" page views...and I agree with Scottie that this happens all the time throughout the year.

The frustrating part for me is this particular writers style and his clear lack of bbq experience, it feels like a slap in the face of competition BBQ from someone who clearly doesn't konw what its all about (however, I can also see the point above about him just pointing out differences from comp bbq to restaurant).


For the record my pork and brisket rocked (my opinion) and received good scores (9th and 10th, but no one would know that because the Jack people tried to save 5 minutes:crazy:), chicken was chicken, and my ribs sucked and were judged accordingly:icon_blush:

Lake Dogs
11-01-2010, 12:17 PM
> Why everytime do people throw a comparison to a restaurant that uses a
> different cooking method, a lot of people like applebbees or chilis ribs, there
> is a reason they are out there and pretty busy.


> A lot of people like McRibs, too. Most of them don't know any better. Let's go
> over to Q-Talk and count how many "Have you become a BBQ snob and can't
> eat at restaurants anymore?" threads there are.

I recently had a funny personal experience of this very thing, where just after the
competition where we top 10'd in pork we opened up the leftovers for friends and
family. Everyone was snarfing up the pork and most going without sauce and some
with. Everyone was loving it and talking it up (free pork; cant be too bad :-) ),
except for one lady. The look of the redness (smoke ring) turned her off and it had
this *funny* flavor (smoke, as it turns out). As it turns out, the only pulled pork
she'd ever had was cooked in a crock pot and sauce added at the end...

Hey, can't please everyone every time!

Jacked UP BBQ
11-01-2010, 12:32 PM
Maybe COACHED wasn't the correct word. But there is a reason that Blues hog is the #1 selling bbq sauce for comp BBQ and not a mustard sauce! There is no way a mustard sauce glazed ribs could win even if AWESOME, because that is not what a rib is suppose to taste like!

ique
11-01-2010, 01:42 PM
The only folks that beotch about Jack judging are the one's that get their butts handed to them. I personally think they are the most distinguished, respected, knowledgable judges that are on the circuit... :becky:

I'll have to go check the winners list again... have you won the Jack every year you have competed there? :-P



I was told early on in my career. If you didn't score well, cook better. To become a champion, you must learn to lose first. More cooks need to practice this.

One of the things that I practice is learning about the profile of the judges at an event and tweaking my entries accordingly. There are a whole bunch of first time food blogger types AND a whole bunch of old time KCBS judges at the Jack. You don't see that at most events. And those two types of people are looking for very different things.

I'd be much happier with ALL food bloggers or ALL Paul Kirk types.

Of course none of that means chit if you dont cook well. And I love a challenge thats why I go back and cook the Jack every year :bored:

AZScott
11-01-2010, 01:54 PM
Eh, the guy is new and nothing else needs to be really said. I used to think a local bbq place had phenomenal bbq. Then I bought a BGE and after cooking a pork butt it wasn't nearly as good. Three years later, that pork butt wouldn't compare to what I do now. This guy knows his favorite bbq places, which is great, but his tastes will change just as all new judges do over time and as all of ours has as well. I'm interested in seeing the second part of his article and I'm even more interested in seeing if he judges more contests.

Jorge
11-01-2010, 02:02 PM
Maybe COACHED wasn't the correct word. But there is a reason that Blues hog is the #1 selling bbq sauce for comp BBQ and not a mustard sauce! There is no way a mustard sauce glazed ribs could win even if AWESOME, because that is not what a rib is suppose to taste like!

It might be because Blues Hog is incredibly versatile when doctored just a bit, and works well in multiple regions of the country. It's not like Head Country wasn't ever a 'go to' sauce, and that's not to say it isn't now.

If you figure out how to make a mustard sauce win consistently, and the word gets out...you can drive the bandwagon:-P

Scottie
11-01-2010, 02:07 PM
I'll have to go check the winners list again... have you won the Jack every year you have competed there? :-P



No, but I am also not one of the one's moaning and beotching about the process of judging or who they get for judging. I could care less if I ever get another call or get my bung pulled at the Jack. It would be awesome, but I've been to the top of that mountain and inhaled the air... :thumb:

Let's face it, this blogger is trying to drum up business for himself. Just as the Jack tries to do for their branding as well.