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warren.miller
10-25-2010, 12:43 PM
I read a BBQ secrets book. In it he state that he freezes his brisket then defrosts it. He says this is his way of making sure it comes out tender. I though it sounded interesting. Has anyone tried this or hear off it? Does it work? I was under the school of thought that you age a brisket.

Thanks

AZScott
10-25-2010, 05:36 PM
My understanding of it is that the ice crystals will break cell walls and fibers due to expansion. Once you thaw it, more liquids will be released due to the cell damage.

Effect of freezing on sensory quality, shear force and water loss in beef M. longissimus dorsi
Å. Lagerstedthttp://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REcor.gif (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4RP0MTP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1513403893&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=103b26a0ad0f80485fa1d2213668edb4&searchtype=a#cor1), a (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4RP0MTP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1513403893&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=103b26a0ad0f80485fa1d2213668edb4&searchtype=a#implicit0), http://www.sciencedirect.com/scidirimg/entities/REemail.gif (Asa.Lagerstedt@lmv.slu.se), L. Enfälta (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4RP0MTP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1513403893&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=103b26a0ad0f80485fa1d2213668edb4&searchtype=a#implicit0), L. Johanssona (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4RP0MTP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1513403893&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=103b26a0ad0f80485fa1d2213668edb4&searchtype=a#implicit0) and K. Lundströma (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T9G-4RP0MTP-4&_user=10&_coverDate=10%2F31%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1513403893&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=103b26a0ad0f80485fa1d2213668edb4&searchtype=a#implicit0)
aDepartment of Food Science, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, P.O. Box 7051, Uppsala SE-750 07, Sweden

Abstract

The objective of this study was to determine how sensory quality, shear force and water loss differ between beef stored either chilled or frozen before cooking. Meat tenderness was analysed instrumentally and sensorially using both a consumer panel and a semi-trained panel. Both M. longissimus dorsi (LD) from eight young Holstein bulls were cut into eight samples, weighed, vacuum packed and aged at 4 °C for 2, 7 or 14 days. After ageing, the frozen samples were kept at −20 °C prior to heat treatment. Water holding capacity was recorded as purge or thawing loss and cooking loss or as combined loss. Sensory analyses were performed on samples aged 7 days. Peak force values declined with ageing time and freezing. Frozen meat aged 2 days had the same peak force values as chilled meat aged 7 days. Total energy was the same for both treatments at day 2 and 7, whereas at day 14 frozen samples showed significantly higher values than chilled samples. The sensory panel experienced the chilled meat to be more tender, juicier and having a more intense meat taste than the frozen meat, whereas the consumers could not find any significant difference in degree of liking. Water holding capacity was lower for the frozen samples. The results indicate that conclusions from studies concerning sensory quality of beef will depend on whether the meat has been kept chilled or frozen before testing.

Here's another:

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/nutrition/DJ0856.html

Freezing

Freezing rate plays a small role in tenderness. When meat is frozen very quickly, small ice crystals form; when meat is frozen slowly, large ice crystals are formed. While the formation of large crystals may serve to disrupt components of the muscle fibers in meat and thereby increase tenderness very slightly, the large ice crystals result in an increased loss of juices upon thawing. This increase in loss of juices results in meat that is less juicy upon cooking and therefore usually is perceived as being less tender.

bigabyte
10-25-2010, 06:55 PM
Doing that in no way is a good method to make sure it is tender. Only cooking it properly will do that. I am not saying it does not contribute slightly to making it more tender. What I am saying is if you do not cook it properly, even if you do it this way it will still be boot leather.

Bbq Bubba
10-25-2010, 07:14 PM
I read a BBQ secrets book. In it he state that he freezes his brisket then defrosts it. He says this is his way of making sure it comes out tender. I though it sounded interesting. Has anyone tried this or hear off it? Does it work? I was under the school of thought that you age a brisket.

Thanks

Can i suggest you throw that book in the garbage? :roll:

warren.miller
10-25-2010, 08:50 PM
Well I thought it sounded weird. However, I am looking for any edge I can get.

wnkt
10-25-2010, 08:58 PM
I do this all the time..........mostly because I'll buy a brisket when I find a good price and I freeze it till the week Im going to smoke it and thaw it in the fridge.

I haven't cooked that many but I HAVE had one that was tough from not being in the smoker long enough, so I cut it in chunks and made burnt ends :-D

Carnivorous Endeavors BBQ
10-26-2010, 09:49 AM
I have to agree 100% with BBQ Bubba, i'd take that overpriced pamphlet and use it to start a fire or just file it under trash.
I really don't see anyway that freezing a brisket will break down connective tissue.

Ford
10-26-2010, 09:56 AM
I know some world champions that often freeze brisket.

Scottie
10-26-2010, 10:02 AM
I know some world champions that often freeze brisket.


I know I do.

I freeze them after aging for 40 days. I slowly defrost them in the fridge a week away from the contest. I've also won with brisket that I defrosted in a cooler of water in 8 hours...

Many ways to cook BBQ. Use the way that is best suited for you.

Remember to keep it simple.

warren.miller
10-26-2010, 10:23 AM
Scottie,

Do you age days after sell by date or when you bring it home.

I would be interested to know what world champs do this.

Im going to try it. My sell by date is oct 29.

Thanks
Warren

ThomEmery
10-26-2010, 10:32 AM
Aging is based on the kill date which is on the case not the cryovac

I am not sure "sell by dates" are consistent chain to chain or state to state
That is a good question for the Brothers
What standard are sell by dates based on?

Bought two briskets this morning with Oct 31 sell by dates
discounted to $1.99 form $2.89

Scottie
10-26-2010, 10:42 AM
you need to find the packaged date. Sell by date, doesn't really mean much. Packaged date at least gives you a good idea when the kill date was, as they let the beef rest for a couple of days. I'd try aging it for a week or so... Maybe 2 weeks. Trust me, if the meat went bad and you freeze it. You will still know if it's bad, as soon as you crack that cryovac.

I also have the slaughterhouse age my cases for me. Saves me fridge space and their coolers are in a controlled environment. I bring home the cases, sort them and throw them in the freezer (s). So my method is real easy.

LGHT
10-26-2010, 11:21 AM
Well I thought it sounded weird. However, I am looking for any edge I can get.

Wagu!

Scottie
10-26-2010, 01:00 PM
Wagu!


You still have to know how to cook brisket... I've heard of a lot of guys blowing $90-100 for a Wagyu and not finishing in the top 10. A well cooked select will beat a Wagyu any day, if you don't know how to cook brisket.

LGHT
10-26-2010, 03:46 PM
You still have to know how to cook brisket... I've heard of a lot of guys blowing $90-100 for a Wagyu and not finishing in the top 10. A well cooked select will beat a Wagyu any day, if you don't know how to cook brisket.

That's obvious, but if you have a good piece of meat and you finish 10th maybe a piece of Wagu will get you into the top 3. I've heard of guys finishing 10th cooking with a good piece of meat and then placing first with wagu. Isn't ANY advantage still an advantage? :thumb:

Jacked UP BBQ
10-26-2010, 03:58 PM
That's obvious, but if you have a good piece of meat and you finish 10th maybe a piece of Wagu will get you into the top 3. I've heard of guys finishing 10th cooking with a good piece of meat and then placing first with wagu. Isn't ANY advantage still an advantage? :thumb:

There really is no advantage to wagyu when slow cooking. Thats 100% tested and guaranteed by me!

bigabyte
10-26-2010, 04:01 PM
There really is no advantage to wagyu when slow cooking. Thats 100% tested and guaranteed by me!
I agree. There is no stall at all with any wagyu brisket I have ever made. So the whole collagen breaking down thing doesn't apply to these. So skip the low and slow.:becky:

pigmaker23
10-26-2010, 04:33 PM
its all about how you cook it, period. Wagu, Snake River, Brandt are all great purveyors with great product, but the quality of the meat still can never overcome a poorly cooked piece. the advantage is so slight, stick with choice or better....:-P


That's obvious, but if you have a good piece of meat and you finish 10th maybe a piece of Wagu will get you into the top 3. I've heard of guys finishing 10th cooking with a good piece of meat and then placing first with wagu. Isn't ANY advantage still an advantage? :thumb:

LGHT
10-26-2010, 05:11 PM
I would say cooking is majority of the process, but I have cooked wagu and I can say it came out a LOT more tender than other pieces i've cooked in the past. Maybe if your already a perfect cook you know how to get ANY piece of meat cooked perfect, but I for one sure aint that guy and wagu made a big difference in my book and was well worth the extra cost to me.

Rich Parker
10-26-2010, 05:16 PM
I would say cooking is majority of the process, but I have cooked wagu and I can say it came out a LOT more tender than other pieces i've cooked in the past. Maybe if your already a perfect cook you know how to get ANY piece of meat cooked perfect, but I for one sure aint that guy and wagu made a big difference in my book and was well worth the extra cost to me.

Maybe you were more focused on cooking it correctly because of how expensive it was and you didn't want to ruin it.

I know i would be more focused with that much money wrapped up in a brisket.

LGHT
10-26-2010, 05:17 PM
Yeah that could have been it or the fact that I paid so much it actually "tasted" better in my own mind. Either way my opinion is it was at least 25% better.

Podge
10-26-2010, 06:10 PM
I know I do.

I freeze them after aging for 40 days. I slowly defrost them in the fridge a week away from the contest. I've also won with brisket that I defrosted in a cooler of water in 8 hours...

Many ways to cook BBQ. Use the way that is best suited for you.

Remember to keep it simple.

Yup.. many ways.. I buy 21 day old briskets (fresh never frozen) on tuesday and cook them until tender on saturday.. 5 out of the past 9 contests have been 1st place.. As far as freezing for the sake of tenderness, just cook the dang thing until it's tender.

Podge
10-26-2010, 06:12 PM
That's obvious, but if you have a good piece of meat and you finish 10th maybe a piece of Wagu will get you into the top 3. I've heard of guys finishing 10th cooking with a good piece of meat and then placing first with wagu. Isn't ANY advantage still an advantage? :thumb:

Well, a good C.A.B. can get 1st and a waygu can get 10th. All about the cook and luck at the tables.

Buster Dog BBQ
10-26-2010, 06:16 PM
This year I finally got to know "the feel" when I probed our brisket. 1/2 our contest were top 10 and it was always our worse category. By the end of the year I had the process down 100%. Don't think it's one of those things you can do twice and say you're an expert..

big brother smoke
10-26-2010, 06:33 PM
I know the advantage to cooking great and tender brisket. Scroll down for the answer.






















Keep going!















Almost there.























Practice:bow:

Muzzlebrake
10-26-2010, 07:46 PM
wagu made a big difference in my book and was well worth the extra cost to me.

just curious, what are you paying per pound and how big of a brisket are you cooking?

I have very limited experience with the waygu, but it doesn't seem to me that is wins that much more consistently to justify the added cost. I have found that proper aging and careful selection makes a huge difference.


yo Steph, diggin the new avatar brother!

Coz
10-26-2010, 08:36 PM
I agree with the practice statement. I have cooked maybe 50 or so and I think I am starting to get the feel.

jbrink01
10-26-2010, 09:09 PM
You still have to know how to cook brisket... I've heard of a lot of guys blowing $90-100 for a Wagyu and not finishing in the top 10. A well cooked select will beat a Wagyu any day, if you don't know how to cook brisket.

Amen Brother! Angus Choice in the hands of a good cook is hard to beat!

jbrink01
10-26-2010, 09:12 PM
I agree with the practice statement. I have cooked maybe 50 or so and I think I am starting to get the feel.

No BS, I'm at roughly, really roughly, 3500 since 2004 and can still blow one. Just look at my last contest scores...;-)

warren.miller
10-26-2010, 10:23 PM
How do you cook the perfect brisket?

What are the judges looking for? I know about burnt end, and pulling the meat apart. Is there anything else? Is there a certain flavor the judges are looking for?

I have cooked two and I thought they came out decent. Just not enough bark. I cooked it to 200.

Are judges even that worried about bark?

Dustaway
10-27-2010, 11:30 AM
I know I do.

I freeze them after aging for 40 days. I slowly defrost them in the fridge a week away from the contest. I've also won with brisket that I defrosted in a cooler of water in 8 hours...

Many ways to cook BBQ. Use the way that is best suited for you.

Remember to keep it simple.


definitely words of wisdom the only change I would make is to keep it simply simple for the kiss method I don't like the keep it simple stupid one :-D

Capn Kev
10-27-2010, 12:09 PM
There really is no advantage to wagyu when slow cooking. Thats 100% tested and guaranteed by me!

I second that Matt! We finished 4th place in the Jack last weekend with a CAB Choice grade brisket that wasn't aged more than a week or so. Both of the briskets we cooked had great marbling for choice grade...and I credit my buddy for picking them out. They both turned out great, and the toughest decision we had was deciding which one to go with. I have wasted Wagyu briskets on 2 separate occasions this year. In both cases I expected the Wagyu to be better than my CABs and they WERE NOT. Don't waste your money unless you want expensive hamburgers :-D :thumb:

Kevin

Southern Home Boy
10-27-2010, 01:49 PM
The first contest I ever cooked in I bought the first whole brisekt I'd ever bought. Up until then I'd only bought flats at the grocery store. The only place I could find a whole brisket was at a local Kosher deli.

I had the butcher trim it for me.

Ready for the price? (I wasn't, but I didn't really know any better...)

$9.37 per lb.

$130.00 for ONE brisket.

Took second place out of a field of 80, but geez....

Sawdustguy
10-27-2010, 03:12 PM
In respect to the statement that thawing makes the Brisket loose fluid I would have to say that they are replenished when injecting.

ique
10-27-2010, 03:30 PM
There really is no advantage to wagyu when slow cooking. Thats 100% tested and guaranteed by me!

I say you are 100% WRONG!

Jacked UP BBQ
10-27-2010, 03:30 PM
I say you are 100% WRONG!

You must be sponsored.

ique
10-27-2010, 03:33 PM
You must be sponsored.


More fat = more flavor and moisture. The flat on Wagyu looks like the point on the RD Choice. But please, feel free to continue to cook those.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-27-2010, 03:34 PM
More fat = more flavor and moisture. The flat on Wagyu looks like the point on the RD Choice. But please, feel free to continue to cook those.

What took you so long to change????:becky:

JiveTurkey
10-27-2010, 03:58 PM
My vote goes to freezing doesn't hurt the meat at all. The "ice crystals" argument sounds valid but we all bought into the "searing seals in the juices" before as well. Sure a brisket could lose some juices upon thawing but I'm not sure if it's enough to affect tenderness. A brisket is not a balloon that will pop once it's thawed. I freeze all of my meats and I couldn't tell the difference if they were bought that day or the month before. Cook it right and you'll be fine.

warren.miller
10-28-2010, 02:29 PM
How high (degrees) do you take your briskets for competition?

I am going to age for 30 freeze thaw and see what happens. I will let you guys know. I will probably cook it in two weeks.

mrichard
10-28-2010, 03:12 PM
How high (degrees) do you take your briskets for competition?

I am going to age for 30 freeze thaw and see what happens. I will let you guys know. I will probably cook it in two weeks.

Every brisket will finish at a different temp. You just need to know what it feels like when its done. We cooked Wagyu all summer and had finishing temps from 195-205. Most were done around 201-203

Jacked UP BBQ
10-28-2010, 03:24 PM
I cooked to 165 I like a lot of chew!!!:rolleyes:

Butcher BBQ
10-28-2010, 04:14 PM
My vote goes to freezing doesn't hurt the meat at all. The "ice crystals" argument sounds valid but we all bought into the "searing seals in the juices" before as well. Sure a brisket could lose some juices upon thawing but I'm not sure if it's enough to affect tenderness. A brisket is not a balloon that will pop once it's thawed. I freeze all of my meats and I couldn't tell the difference if they were bought that day or the month before. Cook it right and you'll be fine.

It has worked for me for a couple years now.

CBQ
10-28-2010, 06:58 PM
I cooked to 165 I like a lot of chew!!!:rolleyes:

or less for the chicken :becky:

Scottie
10-28-2010, 08:04 PM
It has worked for me for a couple years now.


Right on... and I'm not a butcher. Trust your butcher! ;)

armor
10-29-2010, 08:12 AM
I cooked 2 briskets last weekend. One had been frozen and allowed to thaw for 2 days in the frig. Both about the same weight and as close as possible to obvious fat content. Both cooked the same with the frozen brisket not as tender as the other. Coincidence? I have no idea. Both were good just a difference in tenderness. Take it for what it is. BOTH WERE CONSUMED WITHIN 24 HRS. :becky:

Divemaster
10-29-2010, 09:30 AM
I do this all the time..........mostly because I'll buy a brisket when I find a good price and I freeze it till the week Im going to smoke it and thaw it in the fridge.

I haven't cooked that many but I HAVE had one that was tough from not being in the smoker long enough, so I cut it in chunks and made burnt ends :-D

It has worked for me for a couple years now.
Count me in as well... I trim, cryo-suck, and freeze all of my comp meats based on when they are on sale and what looks best.

QansasjayhawQ
10-29-2010, 12:24 PM
It has worked for me for a couple years now.
I am hearing you loud and clear, Mr. 180 in Brisket! :clap2:

http://kcbs.us/180club.php

goodbuddiesbbq
10-29-2010, 04:41 PM
Wagyu vs Choice:

My experience:
Is that when we select a very good CHOICE brisket our scores will be more consistent, but the big calls are harder to get. Wagyu briskets can run hot and cold depending on the event, but we have had most of our big calls, including four 1st place calls this year with Wagyu.

Disclaimer: Wagyu (in my opinion) tends to put off bitter tasting drippings sometimes (this is not a good thing).

Freezing Briskets:
We have had a couple of very big calls with frozen Wagyu briskets, and although injection (Kosmos/Butcher/Fab-fellas chime in here) do put a lot of moisture in the meat...I have heard that freezing can cause water/moisture capsules in the meat to burst. That could be something fancy that I heard that sounded somewhat scientific and just made me believe it...but I do.

Disclaimer: I would try to avoid freezing, but it isn't the end of the world.

Overall opinion: Wagyu wet aged 30-50 days is our way, but we do back up with a Choice Brisket every so often when we find a beauty. Next, I would pump that temperature up from 200 degrees a little bit...seems a bit low.

Also, Trust your Butcher...unless he charges you $9.37 an lb for a brisket :becky:.

So before you throw that book away...at least start your next chimney with it, get drunk, fake stumble into somebody (who can cook brisket) camp and shig away! Blame it on the alcohol and the book!

If that doesn't work...apologize in public...if you apologize in public the other person has to accept it.