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Sledneck
08-10-2010, 09:29 AM
Should there be a mandatory comment card for a score below a 6? Has this ever been discussed/voted on? Does anybody else support this? If enough members are interested in making this a rule how do we get it on the table?

crd26a
08-10-2010, 12:00 PM
No. If you told a judge you have to give a card for below a 6, it will prevent many from potentially scoring down when they should, for the simple fact they won't want to fill out a card. You'd basically force a baseline of 6 for everyone regardless, with the rare instance of going below a 6 for burnt / raw / overseasoned bbq only.

CivilWarBBQ
08-10-2010, 01:45 PM
No. Comment cards slow the judging process, so requiring every judge to do one on a bad entry would bog things down and frankly, not provide much more information to the cook. How many times must you be told your chicken was burnt?

Ford
08-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Comment cards should be optional.

tmcmaster
08-10-2010, 03:20 PM
I agree, forcing a comment card for a score below a certain level would ensure that no scores were ever BELOW that.

Alexa RnQ
08-10-2010, 04:46 PM
There are many excellent comments in this thread (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90159). Those I find pertinent are (bolded emphasis mine):

I absolutely think that if a judge really wants to give out a 5 or below, a one-word descriptor (i.e. salty, spicy, fatty, dry, tough, raw, whatever) isn't asking for too much to justify it.

... It's a reminder in process that 6 is average, and if a sample is truly below average they'd have a good notion why.

<snip>
As someone mentioned above I'm sure there are some judges that won't give a 5 or below because they have to fill out the comment card.
But then you have some judges(not many) that give them out left and right and it doesn't bother them to fill out the cards.<snip>

I would like to see it mandatory, but don't think it ever will be. I believe KCBS might be worried you would drive those judges away if they feel pressured to do so...I think that would be the best thing that could happen to the judging pool...You need judges who are as commited to excellence in the judging as you do a cook competing.
...<snip>...
I dont know how many times I have sat at a table with a non-CBJ or one that has judged 1-2 contest and they will give a score below a six and not even consider advising the team why...And I agree, the comment needs to be constructive and informative, if you cant articulate why you gave it a 3, 4 or 5, you have no business sitting in the seat.
<snip>


Regarding the idea that "comment cards aren't needed because some teams win consistently, so just learn to cook better" from another thread (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90079&page=2):
...part of a good teams's invaluable experience is learning how to compensate for the effects of the judging system. However, good teams' records are compiled over a fair amount of road time, which most teams don't put in; does that mean that the more occasional competitor doesn't deserve a consistent judging system?

The success of some teams doesn't mean that suggestions for improving the judging system are invalid; I don't think the answer is as simplistic as "cook better".

Divemaster
10-12-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm really sorry that I didn't see this thread when it came up.

I support the forcing of comment cards, but not with a 6 but a 5. I for one would love to see a card from the judges that gave me a 4, or in one case a 3, for appearance when the rest of the scores were 8's and 9's. This was not a one time problem, we are talking three comps out of 9 this year. I went back and asked to see the score sheets and was told by Mike Lake that it all had to be handled thru the office.

My thoughts would be that it could clear up some questionable scoring by the simple fact that when the table captain looks at a sheet and then asks for the card that maybe, it was simply written poorly and the '4' should have been a '9' and that '5' should have been an '8'.

I pay enough good money to enter a contest and feed the judges (just look at both the size and quantity of coolers) that I deserve and response to an out of place score.

Don't get me wrong. I've cooked more than my fair share of chitty entries. I'm looking at this as simple respect. Your calling what I did chit, tell me why.

Rant over

ThomEmery
10-12-2010, 05:05 PM
A bit off topic

http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=287

Wednesdays motion concerning CBJs that consistently
vote well outside the norm

Smokedelic
10-12-2010, 05:44 PM
I think this is a good thing, Thom. I don't really care what a judges particular scores for an entry are, because I'm sure at times they all get "questionable" entries. But, I think seeing their differentiation from the table average for an entry is significant.

Identifying a trend of scoring significantly outside the table average may indicate a need for additional training for that particular judge. Or, it may help to identify weaknesses in the CBJ training program in general. Either way, if it eventually leads to more consistent scoring, I'm all for it.

ThomEmery
10-12-2010, 06:58 PM
Yes if the goal is education
I would favor it as well

LGHT
10-12-2010, 07:11 PM
I always give a comment card for any score below a 6. In fact the table judge went around to everyone at the table and suggested they give a comment card for any score under 6. Oddly enough 1 entry got 6 cards that all said the same thing ;)

Tuff Dawg
10-12-2010, 07:18 PM
While at Oconee I received 2 comment cards on my Brisket. I loved the cards one said it was undercooked and the other said it was overcooked :confused:. I only cooked one brisket and took all six pieces from the middle. Now I have no clue as to what was wrong with it.
PS
After that I decided to go to the judging class in Janurary

Contracted Cookers
10-12-2010, 07:25 PM
if a judge scores down 2 points or lower then average from the rest of the table. table captain should have to step in with another table captain and see if there score is legit. I also thank that a table captian should have at least 10 contest to his or her credit. before they are allowed to table captian . we cannot keep having such skewed scoreing

dreed
10-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Marc and I tried this approach at the recent event at Palmerton. We instructed the judges that if they score 5 or less they best be ready to back it up with constructive feedback. We took it one step further, that if they couldn't support a score of less than 6 with a comment card, we would default their score to a 6. (we weren't sanctioned).

surprise! we didn't get any 5's matter of fact I don't think we got any 6's. however all the turn-in were at the very least above average

Dana

Contracted Cookers
10-12-2010, 07:30 PM
i think that is so ture pa love emily ur fav kid ever :clap:

Divemaster
10-13-2010, 10:00 AM
Thank you Tom for posting the agenda for tonight’s meting. I wish I could just dial in and listen to it but that’s another subject for another time.

Please don’t misunderstand my comments. It’s not sour grapes about a score. I would just like a little feed back when I have five judges giving me 8’s and 9’s and a single judge giving me a 3 or 4 for appearance. The fact that this has happened 3 out of 9 comps this year makes me wonder. The simple rule of requiring cards for anything lower than a 5 would help greatly.

Do I think there is a down side? I don’t know. I’ve heard the rumblings that if we require cards for anything lower than a 6 then we would never see scores lower than a 6 because the judges won’t fill out the cards. I say that if this is the case, I know which judges I would like to keep around; the ones that complete the cards, the honest ones.

I know that this is just a small part of the problem. If you listed into last months meeting, Ed stated that Reps are getting push back from CBJ’s with expired membership as to why they should bother joining KCBS, and should they even bother asking for a current membership card. Maybe I’m just getting old, but since when do you join an organization for one year and continue to reap the benefits for years after your membership has expired? They are now talking about dumping the CBJ Verification Programs because of this problem. I say, they should be dumping those old CBJ’s that don’t have a current membership. You can still judge, just don’t call yourself a CBJ.

Tom, I’m glad you’re running. I think we could use someone that would take a hard look and a hard line with some of the problems that seem to be obvious to the membership but not to some on the BoD.

Rant over (I think)

Slamdunkpro
10-13-2010, 10:57 AM
Do you feel the same way about the judge that's giving 9's when the table average is 7's?:heh:

if a judge scores down 2 points or lower then average from the rest of the table. table captain should have to step in with another table captain and see if there score is legit. I also thank that a table captian should have at least 10 contest to his or her credit. before they are allowed to table captian . we cannot keep having such skewed scoreing

Divemaster
10-13-2010, 12:29 PM
Do you feel the same way about the judge that's giving 9's when the table average is 7's?:heh:
If I get five 7's and a single 9, yes, I feel the same as if I get five 8's and 9's and a single 6.

Smoke'n Ice
10-13-2010, 02:22 PM
At the royal, I got scores at both the Invitional and the Open, with four judges giving me 8's & 9's and two giving me 5,6 & 7's. What do I attribute this too? I suspect that when the judges are given their instructions, the celebs and non-cbj's take the start at 6 to heart and hold out the 8's & 9's for a better box. They lose sight of the fact that they are judging the entry in front of them and not comparing it to all others. What to do about it would be a difficult task to cover in a post.

Maybe a better set of instructions and reinforcement by the table captain and reps would help. I have judged (I am a cbj) and during the before meeting, it's like a circus with little attention paid to what is being said by a majority as the CBJ's have heard it all before and it is difficult for the newbe to really grasp what is going on in such a short time.

Maybe assigning a cbj to a newbe before judging to go through the procedure and talk about the process and expectations would help.

Rookie'48
10-13-2010, 11:00 PM
.....They are now talking about dumping the CBJ Verification Programs because of this problem. I say, they should be dumping those old CBJís that donít have a current membership. You can still judge, just donít call yourself a CBJ. Rant over (I think)

Jeff, I agree 1,000% :thumb:. However, it's up to each organizer as to whether they use current dues paying members or folks off of the street as judges. The organizer has the right to require all judges to be CBJs who are paid up on their dues - or not. If he wants to be able to post in next year's Bullsheet that his contest had 100% CBJs then that means that they all had to have been current in their KCBS dues. If a judge had been a CBJ, but his dues have lapsed, then he is no longer considered to be a CBJ in the eyes of the KCBS.

Divemaster
10-14-2010, 10:38 AM
Without the Verification System, we have no way of knowing if they are current members. That's the problem.

My feeling is that if we get rid of the system, the KCBS is just hiding their heads in the sand rather than trying to make it better.