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SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 10:19 AM
Pork shoulder from Battle of the BBQ Brethren.

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/SmokeInDaEye/pork.jpg

Ron_L
08-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Very nice box! I would give it a 9. The only things that i can pick on are the slices and the sauce. The slices don't look centered in the box, and there may be too much sauce on the chunks, but that's not enough for me to knock it down to an 8.

Ryan Chester
08-09-2010, 10:48 AM
I'd probably go with a 9 but maybe an 8. The sliced money muscle is not centered and the sauce on the chunks could be a bit cleaner. Obviously those are super easy fixes so that pork box could get a guaranteed perfect appearance score from me REAL easily! That lettuce work is awesome! I gave up on that stuff and switched to parsley a long time ago since I could never do anything that nice with it.

Overall, great job!

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I thought it looked pretty decent but the judges didn't. 5, 6, 9, 7, 5, 7.

Can't quite figure those out considering I lost a tie breaker for RGC and prize money.

Jorge
08-09-2010, 10:56 AM
9, possibly 8, more likely a 9.

Jorge
08-09-2010, 10:58 AM
Wow. The slices are a little dark, and aren't centered, you might have evened out the garnish in the back a little, possible gotten a few more chunks in....

Those are cooks criticisms. I don't see how that box is close to a 5.

Yakfishingfool
08-09-2010, 11:03 AM
They effing couldn't see it with all the paparazzi bulbs going off!!! Actually looks pretty good though. I'd have gone an 8. Meat is down in box and not popping out at me. Looks a bit over sauced. Bottom row not symmetrical with top. S

Ron_L
08-09-2010, 11:07 AM
That is the kind of results that I HATE! i can see a difference in taste or tenderness because on chunk may taste better or have a better texture that the next, but everyone is looking at the same box! How can it look that much different?

Sorry it cost you the RGC, SIDE. I really can't see anything that you did wrong that was that major. Don't beat yourself up over it.

Yakfishingfool
08-09-2010, 11:10 AM
Don't beat yourself up over it.

No, please do :) It makes me wonder as well, no way would I say a five. What are you being penalized on? This is where comment cards help. S

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 11:14 AM
just for the fun of it, here's appearance scores for my other categories
Chicken: 8,8,9,8,8,8
Ribs: 8,8,8,9,8,8
Brisket: 6,7,8,8,8,9

Jorge
08-09-2010, 11:17 AM
The well known, and feared, "BAD TABLE".

Lake Dogs
08-09-2010, 11:21 AM
That box got 2 5's and a 6 in appearance?!?! Holy fark! Looking critically, I'd like to
see a little more pork in the box, resulting in a little less greenery. I'm thinking 8. It
really looks pretty darned good though. Even the 7's would be a fairly brutal score...
I can see an 8, I understand the 9's. Nothing else, IMHO.

Scottie
08-09-2010, 11:24 AM
I would say a 7.. Maybe even lower if they are a jag bag judge... Nothing spectacular, but above average. the lower left section got me. there was a piece I just wan't sure what it was. Probably was the angle and the picture though. I do like the lettuce. Although, I see you also get caught with the sauce hitting the edges and I don't think you notice it that much with parsley. Me as a cook wouldn't score that down though.


*** Ok, I just looked at everyone else's scores. After re-looking at the box, I'd stick with my scores. The chunks aren't defined is probably my biggest critique. The $$ muscle is scewed to the left. The 5's are off, but I think the 9 is as well.

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Yeah, Scottie, the lady who took the picture was shooting around me while I was touching it up so it is at a slight angle but what can you do? Another day, another dollar.

Sledneck
08-09-2010, 11:30 AM
5, i see tiny bubbles on that roll of meat on the top

Big George's BBQ
08-09-2010, 11:38 AM
I would give it a 9 for the same reasons as above. The pork looks awesome

Slamdunkpro
08-09-2010, 11:46 AM
7 maybe a 6. It just looks,,,"off" My eye is really drawn to the dark chunk 3rd from the left right below the money muscle. The money muscle looks over sauced. The whole presentation doesn't say "eat me":becky:

NRA4Life
08-09-2010, 12:08 PM
I don't see it being a 5, that looks like a 7 or 8, more likely an 8 to me.

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Interesting. I almost always get 8s and 9s on my pork boxes. I'll have to look at it with a more critical eye at my next contest. A 5 in my mind is the messes I turned in at my first couple contests:

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/SmokeInDaEye/shoulder.jpg

Sledneck
08-09-2010, 12:27 PM
what is that green stuff surrounding the meat? Must be something before my time

Mustang Sally
08-09-2010, 12:59 PM
Same here...solid 7 maybe an 8.

RobKC
08-09-2010, 01:03 PM
Most likely an 8. A couple of the chunks looked a little fatty to me, but that could be the camera doing that.

Alexa RnQ
08-09-2010, 01:07 PM
No way in hell is that 5s. And I bet neither 5 judge had the stones to give you a comment card, did they?

5s. Jesus wept.

Kit R
08-09-2010, 01:08 PM
Interesting. I almost always get 8s and 9s on my pork boxes. I'll have to look at it with a more critical eye at my next contest. A 5 in my mind is the messes I turned in at my first couple contests:

http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp15/SmokeInDaEye/shoulder.jpg

Anybody got a gallon of water? This makes me REALLY thirsty......

On the box from last weekend, I'd give it an 8 for reasons already identified (off center MM, meat sitting kinda low in the box in relation to the lettuce). Don't get me wrong, it looks nice and it's definitely not a 5 or even a 7 IMO.

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 03:06 PM
No way in hell is that 5s. And I bet neither 5 judge had the stones to give you a comment card, did they?

5s. Jesus wept.

Nope, no comment cards. I guess they are the ones that put the "blind" in blind judging.

Alexa RnQ
08-09-2010, 03:09 PM
This is why I think comment cards should be mandatory for any score under 6.

If you've got the time to take a team out of the running in a category by telling them that the product is worse than average, then you've got time to jot down one word as to why.

Sawdustguy
08-09-2010, 03:17 PM
Clint,

I give it an 8.80 score. I had to give you a mandatory 2 tenths deduction because you tried to kiss my brother while he was sleeping.

Bbq Bubba
08-09-2010, 03:27 PM
They effing couldn't see it with all the paparazzi bulbs going off!!! Actually looks pretty good though. I'd have gone an 8. Meat is down in box and not popping out at me. Looks a bit over sauced. Bottom row not symmetrical with top. S

My thoughts also.

Straighten out and center the MM and even up the meat to cover the box better and your a 9. :thumb:

Nice to see somebody still using a lettuce box.

Jacked UP BBQ
08-09-2010, 03:30 PM
I would give it an 8 all day~

chambersuac
08-09-2010, 03:56 PM
I am surely not qualified to offer scores, but I think your box looks good. Perfect? No...but very good. How long did the judges have to look at the box before they judged it? If you look at anything long enough, you can find flaws...

I'm sorry the 5's cost you, but I appreciate you posting this, it's a learning tool for us newbies.

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 04:02 PM
I am surely not qualified to offer scores, but I think your box looks good. Perfect? No...but very good. How long did the judges have to look at the box before they judged it? If you look at anything long enough, you can find flaws...

I'm sorry the 5's cost you, but I appreciate you posting this, it's a learning tool for us newbies.

Yea, appearance isn't as heavily weighted as the others but when RGC ends in a tiebreaker every little bit counts.

Dustaway
08-09-2010, 04:04 PM
see if you would just take it easy on bobby flay you would of gotten 9's but I'll go with an 8

Buster Dog BBQ
08-09-2010, 04:04 PM
If cost wasnt a prohibiting factor, I think it would be cool if there was a handheld device for each judge. You enter your judge number and then when each category comes you enter the score. It's all recorded electronically and you have a history on the scoring. So reps can evenly distribute judges based on how they score.

YankeeBBQ
08-09-2010, 04:08 PM
I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.

chambersuac
08-09-2010, 04:12 PM
I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.

He's probably been kicked in the nuts so many times that the feeling is "average" to him :shocked:

I agree with Diva, if someone is going to judge you so poorly, they should have the stones to tell ya why.

B C BBQ
08-09-2010, 04:16 PM
I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.

How many different brisket presentations can there be?

Congrats on the win this weekend.

Sledneck
08-09-2010, 04:27 PM
I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.
I dont recall the "i smell smoke presentation" I must of been in the bathroom for that part of the class. :doh:

YankeeBBQ
08-09-2010, 04:31 PM
It involves brisket, a Styrofoam box and some type of greenery.

Jorge
08-09-2010, 04:47 PM
It involves brisket, a Styrofoam box and some type of greenery.

Does he have a blog?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

YankeeBBQ
08-09-2010, 04:53 PM
Does he have a blog?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think so but if he's looking for a good blog address I think dumbassbbqjudge.blogspot.com is available

pigmaker23
08-09-2010, 05:02 PM
We had the same conversation this weekend about our chicken and its style of entry, the judge was impressed that we got all the thighs into the box still using the "Mr Bobo Pattern" its a small world


I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.

B C BBQ
08-09-2010, 05:07 PM
We had the same conversation this weekend about our chicken and its style of entry, the judge was impressed that we got all the thighs into the box still using the "Mr Bobo Pattern" its a small world


Is that the 1 2 3 2 1 diagonal thing or the 3x3 thing?:wink:

How do these judges know who is turning in what?

CBQ
08-09-2010, 05:20 PM
It involves brisket, a Styrofoam box and some type of greenery.

Yeah, you nailed it! :thumb: ISS (from what I have seen) does a nice presentation, but I am not sure it's all that different from others. I think it's the taste and tenderness that keeps getting the awards.

ique
08-09-2010, 05:34 PM
I had an interesting conversation with a judge a few weeks ago. He commented that a few teams at the contest must have taken my class because he got the "I Smell Smoke presentation" on more than one brisket box. I'm not sure how or even if he knows how I present my brisket. I asked him if it was a good presentation and he said he'd seen it so often now that he considered it average. WTF ? Just because more than one team does it that makes it average ? Just because more than one meat packer dry ages prime beef does that make prime beef average ? I truly wanted to kick him in the nuts. Hopefully he reads this.

This was discussed in another thread. Exhibit #1 on why blind judging should remain blind - even after the judging is over.

Contracted Cookers
08-09-2010, 07:50 PM
8 on the box even if it was stevie wonder sorry about the chapped ass. seems like there is starting to be apattern with judges. they have the internet also and can look at different boxes then they see one they love and compare or use as there guide line for the perfect box.cook a contest before you can judge.

Rub
08-09-2010, 08:27 PM
You got jipped. Hopefully BBQ Karma will be with you next time.

SmokeInDaEye
08-09-2010, 08:37 PM
You got jipped. Hopefully BBQ Karma will be with you next time.

Thank you sir. I don't get to compete much these days, worked my butt off to turn those boxes in solo, and was proud to extend my roll of top 3 finishes at this contest to 3. Just unfortunate a couple judges with a misguided understanding of a 5 scoring box kept me from taking home a little something other than another big trophy.

And before someone slings mud, I take nothing away from the teams in front of me. For all I know, they hit that same table in another category and woulda beaten me by more!

MilitantSquatter
08-09-2010, 09:06 PM
I don't get to compete much these days, worked my butt off to turn those boxes in solo, and was proud to extend my roll of top 3 finishes at this contest to 3. Just unfortunate a couple judges with a misguided understanding of a 5 scoring box kept me from taking home a little something other than another big trophy.

And before someone slings mud, I take nothing away from the teams in front of me. For all I know, they hit that same table in another category and woulda beaten me by more!


:drama: Suck it up.. :bored:

Something to consider.. the scores overall at the contest were relatively low across the board... Highest score in any category was low-mid 160's I believe... so a 5 here is more like a 6-7 at other contests where 8's and 9's flow more freely. Slices/meaty chunks may not be what some judges from Long Island are looking for... in their mind neatly arranged meaty but traditional pulled pork may be their ideal.

Sledneck
08-10-2010, 05:32 AM
Maybe something happened to the box when your runner tripped, fell on the ground, picked up the meat off the grass, put it back in , didnt have enough time to pluck the grass off the pork, and get it to the judging tent without being late.

Sledneck
08-10-2010, 08:10 AM
. Highest score in any category was low-mid 160's I believe... so a 5 here is more like a 6-7 at other contests where 8's and 9's flow more freely. Slices/meaty chunks may not be what some judges from Long Island are looking for... in their mind neatly arranged meaty but traditional pulled pork may be their ideal.

Doubt that, maybe the food overall this weekend wasnt as good as other places. As far as neatly arranged Swamp Pit won 1st, have you ever seen their pork box?? Sorry Jules:becky::becky::becky:

Ford
08-10-2010, 08:22 AM
Well I agree it should be better than 5. BUT it got consistent 5-7 scores except for some crazy idiot with a 9. So you hit a really tough low scoring table on this box. It happens to all of us and that's why the KCBS tries to ensure that your box hits 4 different tables. Your other appearance scores were also consistent. That's what we want at the end of the day. So let's hang the judge who gave it a 9 this time.

And just maybe one of the other boxes hit the real high scoring table.

SmokeInDaEye
08-10-2010, 08:23 AM
Doubt that, maybe the food overall this weekend wasnt as good as other places. As far as neatly arranged Swamp Pit won 1st, have you ever seen their pork box?? Sorry Jules:becky::becky::becky:

And not to mention the fact that I've won the pork category 3 times on Long Island in the last couple of years with the same exact recipe, cook method, sauce and presentation. Any given Sunday.

DawgPhan
08-10-2010, 09:08 AM
I just think that this thread, the DAL Ribs thread, the blues hog thread from the pickled pig forum, the numerous brisket/salt type judge threads from Basso's board and the other comments we all hear judges make over the years highlights that KCBS needs to do a much better job with the judges. No more thursday night classes to judge on saturday. No more just re-upping your membership to stay current. Force judges to constantly be moving towards Master Judge accreditation. Minimum number of contests each year to maintain your CBJ#. Introduce a judging internship program or something where they get to judge a contest, but not have it count. Constantly remind judges of the oath they took and how important it is for them to remain fair, honest, and consistent.

The price is too high to compete when you get sub-par judging. Even from one table or one judge.

Ford
08-10-2010, 09:18 AM
I just think that this thread, the DAL Ribs thread, the blues hog thread from the pickled pig forum, the numerous brisket/salt type judge threads from Basso's board and the other comments we all hear judges make over the years highlights that KCBS needs to do a much better job with the judges. No more thursday night classes to judge on saturday. No more just re-upping your membership to stay current. Force judges to constantly be moving towards Master Judge accreditation. Minimum number of contests each year to maintain your CBJ#. Introduce a judging internship program or something where they get to judge a contest, but not have it count. Constantly remind judges of the oath they took and how important it is for them to remain fair, honest, and consistent.

The price is too high to compete when you get sub-par judging. Even from one table or one judge.
Bottom line is that the contest organizer is responsible for getting judges. They can get CBJ's or not. It's their ball so they make the rules on who judges. The KCBS has no control over that part. Many have sponsors judging as part of their donation. Unless we go to paid judges that can be tracked and monitored it's just not going to happen.

Remember at the end of the day it's BBQ and we all have different ideas on what that is and what it looks and tastes like. So it's always a crap shoot on how judges will score your entry. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but unlike baseball the game isn't canceled for rain.

DawgPhan
08-10-2010, 09:32 AM
Bottom line is that the contest organizer is responsible for getting judges. They can get CBJ's or not. It's their ball so they make the rules on who judges. The KCBS has no control over that part. Many have sponsors judging as part of their donation. Unless we go to paid judges that can be tracked and monitored it's just not going to happen.

Remember at the end of the day it's BBQ and we all have different ideas on what that is and what it looks and tastes like. So it's always a crap shoot on how judges will score your entry. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose but unlike baseball the game isn't canceled for rain.


That isnt the bottom line. Contest organizers picking their judges has nothing to do with KCBS certifying the judges. If KCBS wants to make the CBJ harder to get, they could and while contest organizers could elect to go a different direction with their judges and not select CBJs I would imagine it would hurt the turnout of their contest. At the end of the day KCBS is putting their name on line when those judges go out and judge. They taught them and they gave them the certification. There is clearly a problem with the current system of certifying judges. KCBS could take steps towards making it better or they can keep rubber stamping certificates and producing sub par judges while the teams get raked over the coals. KCBS is the gold standard here and they arent acting like it with regards to the judges. They have the best teams, the biggest contests, the most money and the prestige.

laying the judging problems on the organizers is unfair and just passing the buck. Saying it is a crap shot is a cop out. This is about working to improve the process, perfect is not the enemy of better.

Smokedelic
08-10-2010, 10:05 AM
To take it a step further, I think the whole problem starts with the myth of the "CBJ".

KCBS has fostered and propagated this myth as a way to differentiate themselves from other organizations and to create an illusion to the cooks of consistency. In reality, it is a way to boost membership numbers and to generate revenue.

CBJs have bought into the myth because they were forced to pay $35 for a one year membership and $40 for a 4 course, meat only meal. Some take the process of judging for what it is, some show up at a contest to get fed again and take some food home to the family, and some feel like they need to be somewhat more significant than what their role should truly be. No one has ever failed a CBJ class....ever. Just write the check, eat the food, jot down a number, and you're certified.

Cooks have bought into the myth by maintaining a false sense of security that contests that have a high percentage of CBJs are going to be judged more fairly or accurately than those that just bring in people off the street to judge. However, there is no way to know if the "100% CBJ" means that they've all done 20 contests, or they were certified last night. There's no way to know if they were taught the "start at 9 and go down", the "start at 6 and go up or down", or some other variation of the class.

At the end of almost every weekend, across the country, the best cooks seem to have learned how to score well, regardless of who's judging. There are teams that travel and win in different regions of the country, regardless of who's judging. There are teams with multiple GCs every year that are being judged at the same "bad tables" as the rest of us.

So really, what it boils down to for me, is to learn how to cook as well as those top teams cook, and stop fanning the flames of the myth that a CBJ is the answer to, or the cause of, all of our problems.

...but that's just me.

Alexa RnQ
08-10-2010, 12:12 PM
I agree in the main with the above, with a couple of exceptions:

No one has ever failed a CBJ class....ever.
True. But a judge who pulls a truly bonehead move does get culled either by being pulled aside and talked to, hopefully to perform better, or eventually by being passed over as a judge. Not as much as a formal system of checks and balances would do, but I've seen examples of correction/reeducation/creative ignoring even in our short tenure.


Cooks have bought into the myth by maintaining a false sense of security that contests that have a high percentage of CBJs are going to be judged more fairly or accurately than those that just bring in people off the street to judge.
To the contrary, we find that experienced cooks give the hairy eyeball to contests with a judging class immediately preceding.


At the end of almost every weekend, across the country, the best cooks seem to have learned how to score well, regardless of who's judging. There are teams that travel and win in different regions of the country, regardless of who's judging. There are teams with multiple GCs every year that are being judged at the same "bad tables" as the rest of us.
Absolutely. And part of a good teams's invaluable experience is learning how to compensate for the effects of the judging system. However, good teams' records are compiled over a fair amount of road time, which most teams don't put in; does that mean that the more occasional competitor doesn't deserve a consistent judging system?

The success of some teams doesn't mean that suggestions for improving the judging system are invalid; I don't think the answer is as simplistic as "cook better".

Jacked UP BBQ
08-10-2010, 12:36 PM
Yeah, I thought it looked pretty decent but the judges didn't. 5, 6, 9, 7, 5, 7.

Can't quite figure those out considering I lost a tie breaker for RGC and prize money.


Didnt you get top ten in pork?

SmokeInDaEye
08-31-2010, 09:58 PM
Didnt you get top ten in pork?

Yeah, just studying the odd appearance scores. This past weekend I attempted to do a similar box minutes after a BS DQ in ribs while my hands were shaking from rage and the rest of me wanting to quit and grab a beer.

The box looks much worse than the Battle one but was 12th out of 72 teams with a 999, 889, 989, 888, 988, 988. And to prove that wasn't a fluke, I have placed 12th, 13th, and 12th out of 72 at the same contest the last three years.

SmokeInDaEye
08-31-2010, 10:00 PM
Actually, had I spent a couple minutes cleaning up that box, it would have been nice now that I look at it. I calmed down a bit before the brisket box.

Sledneck
09-01-2010, 08:03 AM
Actually, had I spent a couple minutes cleaning up that box, it would have been nice now that I look at it. I calmed down a bit before the brisket box.

That looks like brisket that i would want to jump in the box and eat as fast as possible. Nice job

Sledneck
09-01-2010, 08:05 AM
Yeah, just studying the odd appearance scores. This past weekend I attempted to do a similar box minutes after a BS DQ in ribs while my hands were shaking from rage and the rest of me wanting to quit and grab a beer.

.I guess that chug from a bottle of vodka over at my camp calmed the nerves a bit:becky:

SmokeInDaEye
09-01-2010, 08:17 AM
I guess that chug from a bottle of vodka over at my camp calmed the nerves a bit:becky:

Ah yes, that did help.

Mister Bob
09-01-2010, 09:54 AM
A little too much green, especially top right and bottom right.
I don't like the curve on the money muscle.
Chunks are a little sloppy, bottom right one looks strange.
Bark looks good, sauce a little uneven.
I would give it a 7 for appearance.

Rich Parker
09-01-2010, 11:39 AM
That brisket box is 9 all day!