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boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 10:28 AM
i am wondering what is a typical swing in scores. would a 6 to 8 swing be expected?
i know for the que i brought to the table was somewhat subpar, so, i'm not suggesting the judges did something wrong but to get a few 6's AND some 8's in the same category is confusing for me. i think i might have even gotten a 5 and 8's.
i don't have the card in front of me but it swings a little bit and am wondering what you guys see yourselves over time.
thanks!

mfreeman73
07-19-2010, 10:37 AM
I did my first judging yesterday at the Troy Pigout and I saw a wide variety of scoring. Like one piece of pork that we got at our table tasted good to me, but to the judge next to me she said it was not very good. So, I'm sure I scored it probably at least two points higher than she did. And it worked the other way too where I thought something wasn't as good and she thought it was great. Taste is so subjective. That's why you have six people tasting your food and the lowest score is thrown out. It's not perfect, but it's what we have.

Rookie'48
07-19-2010, 10:37 AM
If i were to give you a 7, the judge on my right might say 6 while the one on the left could think that it's a 8. That's pretty common scoring from what I've seen, one point up or down. Where it gets really stupid is when 4 judges give you 8s & 9s and the other two hand out a 5 or 6 - you just have to ask yourself "WTF were they thinking?"

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 10:52 AM
okay, thanks guys. thats pretty much what i thought.
yeah, this definately wasn't a situation where i thought the cook was excelent and so did the judges except for the 1 WTF 5.
it was personally unsatisfactory, so the mix of 6's and 8's made me wonder.
but the judging was a CONSISTENT mix, so i guess, ideally thats what your looking for(consistency)and i'll just need to bring a better game next time to be CONSISTENTLY better scored!

Ford
07-19-2010, 10:56 AM
If i were to give you a 7, the judge on my right might say 6 while the one on the left could think that it's a 8. That's pretty common scoring from what I've seen, one point up or down. Where it gets really stupid is when 4 judges give you 8s & 9s and the other two hand out a 5 or 6 - you just have to ask yourself "WTF were they thinking?"
For taste and tenderness it's easy to have valid swings. Remember most folks start in the middle and then score up or down. And to explain taste variances smokers generally want more heat to counteract the burned out taste buds. I don't judge my own product for taste as I enjoy a cigar at contests and know it screws up my taste.

Chicken - I had 3 pieces left to try and 2 had great bite thru skin for sure an 8 or 9 and 1 needed a chainsaw to cut it a 5 or 6. Happened at Auburn Hills to me and one of the 6 pieces judged had tough skin and scored a 6. Still took 1st as taste rocked all of them. But it's easy to over/under season a piece or even part of a piece.

Ribs - easiest explanation is that you didn't do the rub evenly. Or when wrapping with brown sugar you didn't clean the back before saucing and god a sweet spot. Also from a slab of 6 you could have one end that is over done or thinner meat layer so it's more falling off the bone. Then there's the whole bit test for ribs thing. Some new judges look for more pull than is intended.

Pork - sliced, chinks or pulled any of the following can happen. Get no bark vs all bark in a sample. Get more sauce on some than on others. If sliced one end may be firmer than the other and impacts tenderness.

Brisket - tenderness is the most variable to me. It's easy to dry out a slice and the next is still fairly moist. Rub distribution again impacts taste big time. How about one judge samples from the end and the other the middle. Try it yourself sometime. There can be a big taste difference.

OK so I've just defended all judges here and that's not something you usually hear from me. As you get to be a more experienced cook you can control a lot of the factors listed above but we're all human and can make mistakes. BUT I still don't get appearance scores ranging from 5 to 9. I think some judges need glasses.

Scottie
07-19-2010, 11:05 AM
OK so I've just defended all judges here and that's not something you usually hear from me. As you get to be a more experienced cook you can control a lot of the factors listed above but we're all human and can make mistakes. BUT I still don't get appearance scores ranging from 5 to 9. I think some judges need glasses.


I can't say the same... I had appearance scores from 5 to 9 this past weekend. I can tell you that I have never turned in a 5 or a 6 for presentation. You can't cook as much as I have if I was to be that sloppy with my presentations....

Just because you have 100% CBJ's means nothing.

You dust yourself off and you move on to the next contest... Scores can vary. It's all subjective. We never give back a trophy when we feel they overscored us. No reason to b!tch if we don't get all 9's...

Lake Dogs
07-19-2010, 11:14 AM
Scottie, I agree with you, however, as Ford mentioned "most folks start in the middle",
the problem is *most*. There should be a preached/enforced standard, whether it's
start in the middle and go up or down, or start at the top and score down, but not
a hodge-podge, and this preached/enforced standard should be part of the judges
meeting in every single contest. Hopefully it is; so perhaps Ford meant "all are supposed
to start in the middle". However, judging inconsistency really takes away from the cache of any sanctioned contest, KCBS or other.

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 11:26 AM
thanks ford, certainly i wan't attacking the judging. i hope i didn't come off that way. i really expected to get the answers that i did. but just wanted a little feedback on what i was looking at and to confirm it was pretty normal.

sometimes i'm dense. the total score i received for each category certainly reflects the quality of food i thought i presented. so, in that regard, the judging really was spot on. i was just a little curious about the swing in individual judges points on a couple categories.
i do know what went wrong so i can certainly go with some peices may have been better than others. except pork...not sure what happened there.
thanks again everyone.

Scottie
07-19-2010, 11:32 AM
They give you directions like average, excellent, et al. what do those mean? that is why you get such a swing. what you consider average, I consider excellent and vice versa...

It's all subjective. Folks need to understand that. That's why it's called judging and not rewarding...

Spydermike72
07-19-2010, 11:39 AM
Recently assisted a CBJ class that Mike Lake taught and he addressed this in the class. He said they used to teach start at a 9 and score down from there. He said they got a lot of 180's when they taught the CBJ class that way, so they changed to start at a 6 and score up or down from there (I was actually taught this way). Mike said that they started to see a trend in very low scores after this. So now they teach you that BBQ that is out of this world (I am paraphrasing here) is a 9 and inedible is a 2.

This is a difficult one to answer without seeing all of the data that the KCBS does.

I tend to agree with Scottie and his above post.


Scottie, I agree with you, however, as Ford mentioned "most folks start in the middle",
the problem is *most*. There should be a preached/enforced standard, whether it's
start in the middle and go up or down, or start at the top and score down, but not
a hodge-podge, and this preached/enforced standard should be part of the judges
meeting in every single contest. Hopefully it is; so perhaps Ford meant "all are supposed
to start in the middle". However, judging inconsistency really takes away from the cache of any sanctioned contest, KCBS or other.

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 12:14 PM
i definately got what i deserved, probably even a little better...

i guess i was just wondering about SOME of the HIGHER scores i got and if the judging was really that subjective.

from where i stand it's all good.

again, this was the first score card i've ever seen, so theres bound to be questions,
it wasn't my intention to scrutinize, critisize, or condemn the judges.

also, as ford had mentioned, i might not be at the level where i can determine peice to peice the gray area of quality. excelent que vs. very bad que is easy to tell. but 2 peices that are OK and look similar might have differences that the judges can taste and see clearly but i can't see them yet and weed them out. unfortunately i had more of those than the good ones.

Rub
07-19-2010, 12:25 PM
I got 9s and 5s before. Come to find out the judge who gave me a 5 found a hair on his/her sample. :puke: Can't say I blame them. :doh:

vexter1
07-19-2010, 12:32 PM
I think the hardest one for me to understand is when it's mostly 8's and 9's all the way across and then one judge will throw a 6 or something for presentation or tenderness - taste I can follow the ups and downs more since it's more subjective of a category than the other 2 but those 6's hurt a lot - and then when everyone else says 8's and 9's for presenation and one person puts a 6 - what?!?! But you're right - dust off and head for the next go 'round is all you can do (or try ot bribe the judges to find out who did it and meet them on the parking lot - ROFL - just kidding!)

Ron_L
07-19-2010, 12:42 PM
I got 9s and 5s before. Come to find out the judge who gave me a 5 found a hair on his/her sample. :puke: Can't say I blame them. :doh:

Wouldn't that be a DQ?

I can understand differences in taste or tenderness within a box as Ford described. I don't like seeing them, but I can understand how it can happen. The wide swings in appearance scores that Scottie described drive me nuts. In the last three competitions our appearance scores for almost every category have been similar to this...

999966

WTF! How can four people look at a box and think it looks excellent and two people look at the exact same thing and think it looks average?

OK... I'm done whining... As Scottie said, I'm going to dust myself off and move on to the next contest.

Scottie
07-19-2010, 12:44 PM
I want to say they don't DQ for a hair on food. It could be from a table captiain, worker, et al. I know they put out a advisory a few years ago on the subject...

Alexa RnQ
07-19-2010, 12:56 PM
WTF! How can four people look at a box and think it looks excellent and two people look at the exact same thing and think it looks average?
Because two of them didn't know what they were looking at.

We find, at least in our region, that new judges feel safest giving out 6s and 7s -- they don't want to appear to be overenthusiastic, but they also haven't yet seen enough scary food to know when an 8 or 9 is in front of them.

We've been at contests where it was pretty apparent from the score sheets when we got "noobed". I understand that new judges have to start somewhere, but when you have more than one inexperienced judge per table, the scoring starts to get wonky. Again, just part of the landscape, and another reason to support organizers who actively work to recruit the greatest possible number of experienced judges.

mfreeman73
07-19-2010, 01:45 PM
I found the opposite on the comp I just judged. I remember after eating the chicken thinking that it was pretty good and I scored that way. After talking to a couple other judges at the table who were veterans, they weren't impressed at all with the chicken.

I know for me, most of my scores ranged between 6 - 8. I gave nines when it was excellent and I gave a couple of fives when it was below average. I don't think I scored anything lower than a five. I think for me to score lower than a five it has to be pretty bad, not quite inedible, but pretty bad and I didn't have anything like that.

Ford
07-19-2010, 03:11 PM
I want to say they don't DQ for a hair on food. It could be from a table captiain, worker, et al. I know they put out a advisory a few years ago on the subject...
Absolutely correct.

ModelMaker
07-19-2010, 03:24 PM
Wouldn't that be a DQ?

I can understand differences in taste or tenderness within a box as Ford described. I don't like seeing them, but I can understand how it can happen. The wide swings in appearance scores that Scottie described drive me nuts. In the last three competitions our appearance scores for almost every category have been similar to this...

999966

WTF! How can four people look at a box and think it looks excellent and two people look at the exact same thing and think it looks average?

OK... I'm done whining... As Scottie said, I'm going to dust myself off and move on to the next contest.

A hair is not a DQ because you can't tell whos hair it was (table captain,judge?) If there is enough sample left in the box the affected judge can replace the hairy piece, if not the judges at table are asked if they would remove the hair and sample around the area.
YUMMO!!
Ed

Lion Bout The Q
07-19-2010, 03:56 PM
I think the hardest one for me to understand is when it's mostly 8's and 9's all the way across and then one judge will throw a 6 or something for presentation or tenderness - taste I can follow the ups and downs more since it's more subjective of a category than the other 2 but those 6's hurt a lot - and then when everyone else says 8's and 9's for presenation and one person puts a 6 - what?!?! But you're right - dust off and head for the next go 'round is all you can do (or try ot bribe the judges to find out who did it and meet them on the parking lot - ROFL - just kidding!)
We saw that very recently too .. Even in the Kids Q with 6 to 10 year olds...My daughter got 999885 in presentation. Same judges as we had. While my 8 year old built her own box and cooked and put her own meat in, it wasn't a 9 in kcbs standards, I didnt think it was a 5 either.. We had similar scores on a couple meats

Coz
07-19-2010, 07:14 PM
I was pleasantly surprised with the consistency on our sheet this weekend. I turned good BBQ but not great BBQ so I was somewhat surprised with our finish. I didnt think we would be in the top ten but musta found a few folks who liked it better then I did. The first 2 contests we did this year had huge swings on the score card . I think we had a range on the one category from 999765 in appearance. I just wonder how the quality of the food served in the judging class affects how the new judges who are not cooks ? My partner took a class and he and another cook were at the same table and were scoring taste on an entry as 5 and the other folks were at 8 or 9 for what the 2 guys I knew both said was a crime to call bbq .

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 07:30 PM
are judges supposed to know what the others are scoring?

Sledneck
07-19-2010, 07:42 PM
are judges supposed to know what the others are scoring?
no, the times I have judged the others at the table kept them covered, After everybodys done judging sometimes it gets discussed but to date nobody has ever shared the number they gave it

pigmaker23
07-19-2010, 08:50 PM
In General, no, judges are not to talk amongst themselves until all of the score cards at all of the tables have been collected. then there is some general discussion about this piece or that piece, however i dont recall ever hearing anyone reveal a score. most will keep there score sheets covered by the tasting plate while scoring. as a table captain we check the score sheets and look for any wild swings in the cards, if one judge is a lot lower in his scores or higher, and the table captain is sharp, he will tell the rep, the rep may then speak with that judge to find out why that judge is so far off from the other 5. The judges in Troy that i saw after turn ins were ones that have done a lot of contests and are experianced

are judges supposed to know what the others are scoring?

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 08:59 PM
eric, that didn't happen at troy, it was another comp.

again, i have zero critisism for the judges at troy. i got what i expected. even better actually. except for pork...don't know what happened there.

Rookie'48
07-19-2010, 09:00 PM
We saw that very recently too .. Even in the Kids Q with 6 to 10 year olds...My daughter got 999885 in presentation. Same judges as we had. While my 8 year old built her own box and cooked and put her own meat in, it wasn't a 9 in kcbs standards, I didnt think it was a 5 either.. We had similar scores on a couple meats

When judging a Kid's Que I always give the kids a higher score than I would if the same thing were turned in by an adult. I just don't have the heart to hear some 6 year old's heartbroken cry, "The judges hate me :cry: !"

are judges supposed to know what the others are scoring?

Nope, you're not supposed to keep your score card covered so that your scores don't influence some one else's. After all of the cards at your table have been turned in you may talk quietly among yourselves.

boogiesnap
07-19-2010, 09:13 PM
there shouldn't even be a five for kids. or even maybe six. i mean c'mon.

you can't hold children to the same criteria as a competing adult, thats just ludicrious.

i guess it depends on age group though...

Smokin Mike
07-19-2010, 10:15 PM
When judging a Kid's Que I always give the kids a higher score than I would if the same thing were turned in by an adult. I just don't have the heart to hear some 6 year old's heartbroken cry, "The judges hate me :cry: !"



Nope, you're not supposed to keep your score card covered so that your scores don't influence some one else's. After all of the cards at your table have been turned in you may talk quietly among yourselves.

there shouldn't even be a five for kids. or even maybe six. i mean c'mon.

you can't hold children to the same criteria as a competing adult, thats just ludicrious.

i guess it depends on age group though...

We were at Sedalia and my son entered some hamburger, he was really proud of what he turned in, made the box, I helped him light the charcoal, he really worked hard on cooking, turning the box in, was very happy with the what he cooked (it really was good), and at the awards,,,, the guy never had the kids come up, it was if you won or not, that was it. He cried that the Judges didn't like it. I had to comfort him (as any daddy would), and take him to the R.V, so mom can help him. I didn't get to see the rest of the awards.

He is still so disappointed, he does not want anything to do with BBQ.

BoneDaddy's
07-19-2010, 10:46 PM
I just became a cbj and at the class we sampled a ton of food. Funny thing, at our table one judge would give an 8 for appearance and one would give a 4...scores are all over the place, but hopefully over time they converge! kind of crazy

swamprb
07-20-2010, 06:40 AM
I helped assemble sample turn in boxes for a KCBS Judging class using the templates that KCBS provided. All of the meats were warm/hot going into the boxes and I was sampling most of what was provided. It was all very good IMO. Now, the boxes themselves were somewhat sketchy, but presentable for judging, but in the time it took to make up 18 boxes and get them to the tables, things went downhill fast, all the Pork looked horrible, and it appeared that the fats had congealed and looked really unappetizing, the Brisket had dried out and looked funky, the sauced ribs looked pasty, but the chicken pieces held up pretty good. All of this was under the watchfull eyes of a Head Judge and Contest Rep and we were kept on track as in a comp setting.

Later I ran into a few people that were not into the BBQ scene that took the class and they all thought it was the worst BBQ they had ever tasted (except the chicken)

At home I started practicing my turn ins and letting them sit in the box for 5-10 minutes and sampling the pieces just to get an idea what the judges would sample. Try it with parsley and lettuce and no garnish to see what tastes you get.

We seem to do well with a mix of new or untrained judges-I'd like to think we dazzle them on Appearance!

Ford
07-20-2010, 07:21 AM
all the Pork looked horrible, and it appeared that the fats had congealed and looked really unappetizing,
Fat in a turn in box? Not in mine for sure.

JayAre
07-20-2010, 07:30 AM
Do the Reps try to put a good mix of experience at each table or do they even know the experience level of the judges?

bignburlyman
07-20-2010, 08:03 AM
At every comp I have judged the rep asks if anyone is a first time judge, and tries to spread them out at different tables. At the Winter Q contest in Great Bend I did double duty, Table Captain and Judge, since there was a shortage of judges. My table had 2 new judges, and 1 was giving low scores---I asked if he wasn't finding anything he liked and he told me he had never eaten BBQ before! :shock:

David Keyse
CBJ #5112

JayAre
07-20-2010, 12:59 PM
At every comp I have judged the rep asks if anyone is a first time judge, and tries to spread them out at different tables. At the Winter Q contest in Great Bend I did double duty, Table Captain and Judge, since there was a shortage of judges. My table had 2 new judges, and 1 was giving low scores---I asked if he wasn't finding anything he liked and he told me he had never eaten BBQ before! :shock:

David Keyse
CBJ #5112


That is disturbing!!!

I was thinking maybe, one newbie, mixed with intermediate then at least one very experienced, say over 10 judged or something...but as I type this, that makes me think that it would add to inconsistancy at each table, if all the experienced judges were at one table at least there would be a chance to get lucky?? who knows :confused: I think its a crap shoot anyway you look at it, but its fun anyway!:clap2:

Jacked UP BBQ
07-20-2010, 01:00 PM
here are my brisket scores from the weekend for appearance 866899.. where the fark did those 6's come from???

Lake Dogs
07-20-2010, 02:36 PM
here are my brisket scores from the weekend for appearance 866899.. where the fark did those 6's come from???
Well, either it's an 8/9, or a 6/7. One, or the other... But, IMHO, can't
be both!!

And the judge who'd never eaten BBQ before.... I've twice run into
chili judges that didn't like spicy food at all, much less chili. My response
to them was "why in the #$&# are you judging a chili contest?". 'Ya
never know. The people recruiting some of these folks really should
do a better job.

For what it's worth, there are multiple chili contests and BBQ contests
that we no longer attend, and while the reasons are varied, most are
because of judging irregularities/inconsistencies. Sorry, I have no
time nor no more money to suffer fools.

I've said many times, most competitors know when they're on their game
and when they're off. I dont mind low scores on off days, as long as
they're consistent. Same on good days, as long as they're consistent,
it's all good.

For us, we have options to choose which contests to go to, and which
sanctioning body to *follow*, or whether to choose a sanctioned cookoff
at all. I think for most teams, as most wont go to one of the big ones
even IF they qualify, the main thing sanctioning offers them is the well
defined rules, even enforcement of those rules, and most importantly
consistent scoring/judging. Without these, frankly, not KCBS nor FBA nor
GBA nor MBN nor any other is worth a darn, IMHO.

To KCBS, I really suggest that they monitor the scoring and employ new
and different measures to keep the "more than 2 points" spread from
happening. I understand an 8 coming through and not impressing a judge
terribly and they get a 7 from them and a 9 from another; this happens.
however, 6's - 9's, this shouldn't happen. I'm talking about the spread,
not the actual valuation. Maybe it was, at best, average and shouldn't
get a 9. That's as bad (getting the 9) for the other teams as a 6 is to
the team who is presenting really great Q. Not "prevent it from ever
happening", I mean. There are times when using Q from 2 different butts,
or different ribs, etc. where one is really good and another really isn't.
However, I think that 90% of the time we see these variances/spreads
it has more to do with newby vs. experienced judges than anything else.

Alexa RnQ
07-20-2010, 02:45 PM
I think that 90% of the time we see these variances/spreads it has more to do with newby vs. experienced judges than anything else.
I would concur. For that reason, I would like to see something along the lines of an informal apprenticeship program.

Back when the earth's crust cooled, I exhibited roses competitively. The American Rose Society's judging program didn't just mint new judges and turn them loose; there was a class of "apprentice judge", and for the first three or so shows the new judge would be paired with a more experienced judge so that the judging standard could be more effectively conveyed than in a short class. That way, the new judge could see real-world applications of the standards that they had learned.

While it would be interesting to execute alongside the no-discussion-at-the-table rule, it would greatly benefit a new judge to get detailed information from a more experienced judge during the judging process.

Brew-B-Q
07-20-2010, 04:34 PM
While I too get frustrated by a 6 and 9 in appearance, I wonder if sauce plays a role. Some like brisket with suace, some without. Some want more sauce on pork than others. Maybe this plays a role in that one judge handing out a six. At Shannon, I had a master judge tell me how much he hates sauce on brisket. Does that factor into his scoring?

Lake Dogs
07-20-2010, 04:45 PM
While I too get frustrated by a 6 and 9 in appearance, I wonder if sauce plays a role. Some like brisket with suace, some without. Some want more sauce on pork than others. Maybe this plays a role in that one judge handing out a six. At Shannon, I had a master judge tell me how much he hates sauce on brisket. Does that factor into his scoring?

I *hope* not, not in an appearance score. Taste, sure. But appearance?
I dont think so.

bignburlyman
07-20-2010, 04:50 PM
That is disturbing!!!

I was thinking maybe, one newbie, mixed with intermediate then at least one very experienced, say over 10 judged or something...but as I type this, that makes me think that it would add to inconsistancy at each table, if all the experienced judges were at one table at least there would be a chance to get lucky?? who knows :confused: I think its a crap shoot anyway you look at it, but its fun anyway!:clap2:

I remember a post on the Brethren a year or 2 ago where a competition cook judged a contest and his scores were brutal! None of the turn-ins met his standard of average, so he scored very low. In my opinion it's not always the new judges that are the problem, sometimes it's expert cooks. At the first Chest to Chest contest a "fairly" famous bbq chef and bbq cookbook author was a judge and he didn't have anything nice to say about any of the turnins after the judging was over. These were all from teams who had won a qualifying contest to get invited. It is sometimes a crap shoot!

Brew-B-Q
07-20-2010, 04:54 PM
I *hope* not, not in an appearance score. Taste, sure. But appearance?
I dont think so.

I'm just throwing out some ideas. But, if you judge appearance based on how much you want to dive in and eat it, and you think sauce on brisket is blasphemy, then wouldn't you give it a lower appearance score?

bignburlyman
07-20-2010, 05:03 PM
I'm just throwing out some ideas. But, if you judge appearance based on how much you want to dive in and eat it, and you think sauce on brisket is blasphemy, then wouldn't you give it a lower appearance score?


The judges are instructed not to let personal bias affect their scoring but we all know that human nature will override those instructions sometimes. I try my best to not judge by my personal taste preference but I have eaten samples that had so much spice (heat) that it was still burning my mouth after crackers and water. That was unfair to anyone who was judged after that because it affected my taste.

Lake Dogs
07-20-2010, 06:05 PM
While I too get frustrated by a 6 and 9 in appearance, I wonder if sauce plays a role. Some like brisket with suace, some without. Some want more sauce on pork than others. Maybe this plays a role in that one judge handing out a six. At Shannon, I had a master judge tell me how much he hates sauce on brisket. Does that factor into his scoring?

Does that factor in to his scoring? I'm sure it does, however a very
seasoned judge worth his salt will NOT let it do so and wait for the
flavor. Who knows; there's always a first (brisket with the absolute
perfect sauce)... A good judge knows to separate the appearance
score from the tenderness score from the taste score and not have
one score influence the other.

I've personally seen some pretty horrendous looking Q taste really
darned good, and LOTS and LOTS of fantastic looking Q be ghastly
for one reason or another. Same for tenderness. I read/hear about
if the brisket doesnt shine (in appearance score) they'll downgrade it
because they *assume* it isn't tender. Shouldn't do that. It's either
appetizing on its own merits, or it's not. It's tender, or not, or mushy,
etc. regardless of look. Same for taste. I've had some beautiful
looking Q be very tender, perfect one might say, and still taste aweful.
I've had a few be undercooked or overcooked and not meet the
tenderness standard as defined (I personally like my ribs more falling
off the bone, but that's not how I judge it, because that's not the
mark to be hit), yet taste fan-dang-tastic.

This (separation of them) should also be taught and stressed in
judges meeting, every single one. It is at some comps...

Muzzlebrake
07-20-2010, 07:23 PM
here are my brisket scores from the weekend for appearance 866899.. where the fark did those 6's come from???

judge 2 and 3
:becky:

DawgPhan
07-21-2010, 02:54 PM
I would concur. For that reason, I would like to see something along the lines of an informal apprenticeship program.

Back when the earth's crust cooled, I exhibited roses competitively. The American Rose Society's judging program didn't just mint new judges and turn them loose; there was a class of "apprentice judge", and for the first three or so shows the new judge would be paired with a more experienced judge so that the judging standard could be more effectively conveyed than in a short class. That way, the new judge could see real-world applications of the standards that they had learned.

While it would be interesting to execute alongside the no-discussion-at-the-table rule, it would greatly benefit a new judge to get detailed information from a more experienced judge during the judging process.

I totally agree with this and I would even be happy to raise the minimum pieces to 7 or 8 so that they could have rookie judges sit at a table and score entries, but just not have it count so they could get the full experience.

Paying and taking the class doesnt make you a good judge, just like me dragging my stuff out and paying the entry fee doesnt make me a good cook.

But if your contest runs a judges class on thursday and lets them sit and judge on saturday I would rather not spend the money to compete at that contest.

Q-Stream
07-22-2010, 09:29 AM
Interesting ideas in lots of the previous posts, and some good ideas.

In my experience with judging (27 contests), different reps have different ideas on how much "blending" of the judges they should do at each table. Some are more thorough than others.

At nearly one fourth of the contests, I have done double duty as judge and table captain, so I have seen all the scores sheets at my table. If there were enough judges to go around, I would not know how other judges were scoring. If I do see a wide variance in scoring by one or two judges, I always bring it to the reps attention, but I don't think a rep can direct a judge to change their score.

This may vary by region, but it's rare to see a contest with all experienced judges in the Midwest. It would be nice to have a new judge sit with an experienced one the first couple contests, but it would be tough to do.

There have been a couple times when I noticed lower scores from a particular judge and it has not been a first-timer. My guess is that they either set their expectations higher as they judge more contests, or they had a bit of a hard-nosed approach to begin with.

Most of the people I have judged with do really enjoy bbq and try to do the best job they can. How you could weed out the ones that don't from a group that is essentially a bunch of volunteers is beyond me.