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View Full Version : What would you have done? (Long sorry)


Just Pulin' Pork
07-12-2010, 01:59 PM
After turn ins at a contest this past weekend I was over BS'ing with a member on another team and a master judge walked up. The master judge asked how did our cooking go, and we both said we were happy with what we turned in. Then the master judge asked the team I was talking too, what number they were assigned and then the master judge saw the spot# on the ground. I looked at the person I was talking to with a WTF look on my face and then the master judge asked me what spot my team was in and I told him (only because I did not know where this was going). The master judge thought for a minute and said, "no, no I don't think we got either of your boxes at our table." I looked again at the person I was talking too and asked how would they know what boxes they got and the master judge said they tag another # onto your space # and he said "today they used 801" and then told us he was a "table captain and I did not judge so don't worry." The Master Judge then said "I wished we would have gotten the boxes from the team in spot # blank" (I am not giving it so don't ask). At this point the master judge said he had to move along and then I see him walk over and talk to the team that he "wished he would have gotten their boxes."

By now, both me and the person I was talking to were like "did that really happen?" At that point I said I was reporting it to the reps from KCBS. The kicker of all of this is after awards, I started talking with the reps to report what happened, I see the same master judge helping carry one of the trophies out to the car for the team, "that he wished they would have gotten there boxes."

The reps said they are filing a report with the KCBS and they thanked me for reporting it. Just curious on how others would have handled this.

Scottie
07-12-2010, 02:03 PM
same way...

Alexa RnQ
07-12-2010, 02:19 PM
Hold.the.phone.
A Master Judge was at a contest, gave particulars about the renumbering system, openly expressed he wished he'd gotten a certain team's box, yet claimed he wasn't judging?
Damn, how many different things are wrong with this picture?

Yes, I'd have followed up with the rep, and possibly with a board member to boot.

Dustaway
07-12-2010, 02:26 PM
I guess the blind numbering system isn't so bad after all....


Yea I would of done the same thing after I cooled down from Kick Arse Mod

Jeff_in_KC
07-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Just like you did, Jon... only I'd also contact the KCBS office yourself TODAY and give all the specific details and then email the board. There is probably still an address where it goes to all of them.

Sledneck
07-12-2010, 02:41 PM
I thought it was legal after judging to find out what team you judged? In sayville 2 years ago i had a few people come up to me that had one of my entries.

Scottie
07-12-2010, 03:02 PM
I thought it was legal after judging to find out what team you judged? In sayville 2 years ago i had a few people come up to me that had one of my entries.


did they like A-1?

RobKC
07-12-2010, 03:03 PM
I hope that guy isn't judging next week. Good job reporting it, Jon.

Just Pulin' Pork
07-12-2010, 03:04 PM
I hope that guy isn't judging next week. Good job reporting it, Jon.

If I see him in Burlington I will call him out!

ique
07-12-2010, 03:19 PM
I thought it was legal after judging to find out what team you judged? In sayville 2 years ago i had a few people come up to me that had one of my entries.


No its not legal to disclose a teams entry even after judging

Balls Casten
07-12-2010, 03:36 PM
For real …
A judge wanted to stop and inform you, or someone, that he did not score meat from the team whose trophy he was carrying?

Ford
07-12-2010, 04:22 PM
You did right in reporting that table captain(master judge). When Reps use an easy number like 801 it's possible for a smart table captain to figure out the number by looking at 24 boxes especially in a contest with only say 50 teams. Might not get max and min but should be able to guess. It makes more sense to start with a number that is at least as large as the number of teams but less than 3 times the number of teams. This would work for most contests and make it much more difficult to figure out the "random" number the rep chooses. Like I said 801 is not a smart choice by the Rep. You might want to email the Rep Committee Chairperson about this "problem"

ModelMaker
07-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Wow, what a dick. Sometimes I tire of trying to ensure you all we as judges are giving our best and somebody like this shows up.
Please if all facts are accurite revoke this guys certification.
Don't want em, don't need em.
Ed

Sledneck
07-12-2010, 09:07 PM
No its not legal to disclose a teams entry even after judging
well it happened and it was a kcbs event

Sledneck
07-12-2010, 09:08 PM
did they like A-1?they must of cause it was a first place:becky:

Bentley
07-12-2010, 10:21 PM
No its not legal to disclose a teams entry even after judging


Could you point out where on the KCBS site about judging, or what your data is that backs up this statement? Are not refering to the KCBS Reps? Or are you refering to Table captins and CBJ's?

Rookie'48
07-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Wow, what a dick. Sometimes I tire of trying to ensure you all we as judges are giving our best and somebody like this shows up.
Please if all facts are accurite revoke this guys certification.
Don't want em, don't need em.
Ed

A-farkin'-men :mad:.

Jon, that chit ain't right! You did exactly the right thing and, yes, I also would contact the BoD and the KCBS office. We are supposed to have the "double blind" system to ensure that arseholes like this one can't do what he just did :mad2:.
Jerks like him are NOT what we need or want in Compitition BBQ.

Lake Dogs
07-13-2010, 07:23 AM
KCBS's system here is very 1975 and rudimentary. A much better system would be
one where 4 random numbers are generated for each team, so that a team would get 4 boxes labeled like:

20741
33112
07101
84549


Only in the system that generated the numbers would be assigned to a team. When
the box numbers are entered into the scoring system it would know which team
received those boxes; no other.

Ron_L
07-13-2010, 08:12 AM
While I agree that what happened is wrong, the renumbering system at the competitions we cook at isn't very sophisticated. In 90% of the comps they simply add 100 or 200 in from of our box number. So, if I had box number 19, the box would be renumbered with 219, for example. It's not hard to figure out. The info is right on the score sheets.

Now, in pretty much all of the comps we cook at, the box number has nothing to do with our space number, so unless a judge had some way of knowing our box number, they wouldn't easily be able to tie it back to us unless easily.

pahutchens
07-13-2010, 03:17 PM
I'm stunned. You seemed to handle it very professionally.
In case the judge shows up at the next contest I would speak to Reps ahead of time and if you send an email to the KCBS BOD I would bring a copy along

crd26a
07-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Now, in pretty much all of the comps we cook at, the box number has nothing to do with our space number, so unless a judge had some way of knowing our box number, they wouldn't easily be able to tie it back to us unless easily.

A lot of contests in the KC area go off of your spot number, so if they're only taking on a 1 / 2 /3 on the front, its not much. And I've seen it before on our score sheets as well

Just Pulin' Pork
07-13-2010, 04:19 PM
I'm stunned. You seemed to handle it very professionally.
In case the judge shows up at the next contest I would speak to Reps ahead of time and if you send an email to the KCBS BOD I would bring a copy along

I have sent an email last night to Gene Goycochea at the KCBS office. I have not back from him yet.

eurycea
07-13-2010, 05:23 PM
While I agree that what happened is wrong, the renumbering system at the competitions we cook at isn't very sophisticated. In 90% of the comps they simply add 100 or 200 in from of our box number. So, if I had box number 19, the box would be renumbered with 219, for example. It's not hard to figure out. The info is right on the score sheets.


I don't understand why the new # is on the score sheet.

Ford
07-13-2010, 06:12 PM
I have sent an email last night to Gene Goycochea at the KCBS office. I have not back from him yet.
Can you give him a little time????? Last night and you expect a response today. I know we live in the world of instant gratification but this is a not for profit group run by a BOD and things take time.

At best you will probably get a reply that says I am looking into it then it will need to go to a BOD meeting. As the agenda for this week should have already been set unless it comes up as new business and can't wait until the next meeting it will be mid august until the BOD discusses it.

Ford
07-13-2010, 06:15 PM
While I agree that what happened is wrong, the renumbering system at the competitions we cook at isn't very sophisticated. In 90% of the comps they simply add 100 or 200 in from of our box number. So, if I had box number 19, the box would be renumbered with 219, for example. It's not hard to figure out. The info is right on the score sheets.

Now, in pretty much all of the comps we cook at, the box number has nothing to do with our space number, so unless a judge had some way of knowing our box number, they wouldn't easily be able to tie it back to us unless easily.
Reps are instructed to use a random number and not 100 or 200, etc. When you see this you should report them to the Rep Committee Chairperson. Otherwise it will just go on. I do understand the Reps desire to make it simple especially with 50 to 100 boxes at a lot of contests. Or maybe it's just tough for some people to do math in their head when they have to add your box number to 147 for example. Now a cheat sheet sure helps.

ique
07-13-2010, 06:28 PM
Can you give him a little time????? Last night and you expect a response today. I know we live in the world of instant gratification but this is a not for profit group run by a BOD and things take time.

I didn't see anywhere where Jon was expecting a response today. I read that as simply stating he emailed and the status was he hadn't received a reply yet.

bodcat
07-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Reps are instructed to use a random number and not 100 or 200, etc. When you see this you should report them to the Rep Committee Chairperson. Otherwise it will just go on. I do understand the Reps desire to make it simple especially with 50 to 100 boxes at a lot of contests. Or maybe it's just tough for some people to do math in their head when they have to add your box number to 147 for example. Now a cheat sheet sure helps.

I have competed in 7 contest in KS now and I think almost all of them have just added 100, 200, and now 800 to our number. There was one that added 101 to it.

Just Pulin' Pork
07-13-2010, 11:25 PM
Can you give him a little time????? Last night and you expect a response today. I know we live in the world of instant gratification but this is a not for profit group run by a BOD and things take time.

At best you will probably get a reply that says I am looking into it then it will need to go to a BOD meeting. As the agenda for this week should have already been set unless it comes up as new business and can't wait until the next meeting it will be mid august until the BOD discusses it.

Ford my friend, and I mean that, I cooked Little Rock with you!! I am not looking at instant gratification. I am very concerned for not only my team the weekend that it happened but future contests that this "Master Judge" is judging the rest of the teams that spend there hard earned $$$ and time cooking contests! I just want a response in a timely manner from the KCBS because what I heard and what I saw was BS!

Just Pulin' Pork
07-13-2010, 11:26 PM
I didn't see anywhere where Jon was expecting a response today. I read that as simply stating he emailed and the status was he hadn't received a reply yet.

Thank you!

QN
07-14-2010, 05:40 PM
Could you point out where on the KCBS site about judging, or what your data is that backs up this statement?

From the latest rep advisories on the KCBS web site;
4.44 Blind Judging
Question: Once the judging is over, can we reveal the names of the cooks to the judges?
Opinion: No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers. The only person besides the KCBS Rep who should have access to this information is the person entering the results into the computer. And, they are not authorized to share this information with anyone.
February 17, 2006

Bunny
07-14-2010, 10:28 PM
From the latest rep advisories on the KCBS web site;
4.44 Blind Judging
Question: Once the judging is over, can we reveal the names of the cooks to the judges?

Opinion:
No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers. The only person besides the KCBS Rep who should have access to this information is the person entering the results into the computer. And, they are not authorized to share this information with anyone.
February 17, 2006


You'e absolutely right. Reps only give copies to the cookers and organizer. I've had judges ask for a sheet and we always turn them down because we can't. But this needs to be reported to Ed Roith,CBJ chair. eroith@kcbs.us

Bunny

Just Pulin' Pork
07-14-2010, 11:09 PM
You'e absolutely right. Reps only give copies to the cookers and organizer. I've had judges ask for a sheet and we always turn them down because we can't. But this needs to be reported to Ed Roith,CBJ chair. eroith@kcbs.us

Bunny
[/LEFT]

Bunny thanks for the heads up I will send a message to Ed.

sharks_guy
07-14-2010, 11:36 PM
Hi,
Am I understanding correctly that at contests they add a single constant value to all box numbers to generate the new numbers? How is this "Double Blind"? My "Math Geek" side is revolting....

Is there a reason why they do not randomly renumber the boxes before they are given to the table captains?
Example. box number 8 comes in and gets new label 347. Box 65 comes in, and gets new label 123. No rhyme or reason to the renumber, just a new number, then all of this remapping is just entered into a computer to keep track? If risk of error is the problem, the remapping could be done ahead of time and all one would need to do is peel new labels?

Seems weird. Thanks for any clarification that you can provide.

Dan D.

QN
07-15-2010, 07:47 AM
Hi,
Am I understanding correctly that at contests they add a single constant value to all box numbers to generate the new numbers? How is this "Double Blind"? My "Math Geek" side is revolting....

Is there a reason why they do not randomly renumber the boxes before they are given to the table captains?
Example. box number 8 comes in and gets new label 347. Box 65 comes in, and gets new label 123. No rhyme or reason to the renumber, just a new number, then all of this remapping is just entered into a computer to keep track? If risk of error is the problem, the remapping could be done ahead of time and all one would need to do is peel new labels?

Seems weird. Thanks for any clarification that you can provide.

Dan D.

The KCBS software does not work that way. The rep assigns a "number" that is used for the contest. It is entered in the software and the software program generates the team list with both numbers shown. For the system to work as it is, one number has to be used to add to each entry number. For example, if the number to be added is 101 then team number 7 would go to the judging table as box number 108. All of the reps I know and have worked with take great pains to make sure no one other than the official contest reps and turn in table folks know what that added number is. When I was a rep I tried to use something less obvious than 100 or 101. Hope this explanation helps.

ique
07-15-2010, 09:25 AM
]No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers.

Thanks for posting this Mark, I wasn't sure where to find it.

Certainly this guideline helps enforce the integrity of the judging. Another reason though, is cooks also judge. Would be pretty tempting to see a killer box and go lookup the team. Oh, hey look, thats how Pellet Envy does their Pork box.

Bentley
07-15-2010, 10:18 AM
From the latest rep advisories on the KCBS web site;
4.44 Blind Judging
Question: Once the judging is over, can we reveal the names of the cooks to the judges?

Opinion:
No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers. The only person besides the KCBS Rep who should have access to this information is the person entering the results into the computer. And, they are not authorized to share this information with anyone.
February 17, 2006



This is for KCBS Reps correct?

It has nothing to do with Table Captians and judges, or am I mistaken?

So I guess I am not sure what this person did that was against KCBS rules. So if a table captian or judge is speculating on what teams are doin, you may not like it, you may not think it is in keeping with the spirit of BBQ competitions, but thats life...I don't like the fact that some cooks use $200 Waygu brisket and others cook a Smart and Final Select brisket I dont think that is keeping with the Spirit of BBQ competitions...I am told too bad, no rule against it.

Scottie
07-15-2010, 10:30 AM
I think you are making it harder than it needs to be Bent. It clearly states it shouldn't be done. but that is how I am reading it and it doesn't seem too complex. And I am pretty simple... :doh:

Jacked UP BBQ
07-15-2010, 10:55 AM
Does this affect the pork rule at all??:boxing:

dswfondy
07-15-2010, 11:46 AM
This is some bulls***!! This judge should no longer be able to judge period. No telling how many times this has been done.

I myself have seen judges talkin with teams during the time when they are not to. If this stuff happens at my contest they will be kicked off the grounds period. Rules are there for a reason, you did the right thing.

Bride of Roo(BQ'n)
07-15-2010, 12:57 PM
FYI, Organizers can put a quick fix to this. THEY submit team name and numbers to the Reps. When I submit for RCR, the team number has NOTHING to do with their space number...its called a master excel sheet, nothing magical but this issue could never happen if more organizers did it this way.

Bentley
07-15-2010, 01:09 PM
I think you are making it harder than it needs to be Bent. It clearly states it shouldn't be done. but that is how I am reading it and it doesn't seem too complex. And I am pretty simple... :doh:

After turn ins at a contest this past weekend I was over BS'ing with a member on another team and a master judge walked up. The master judge asked how did our cooking go, and we both said we were happy with what we turned in. Then the master judge asked the team I was talking too, what number they were assigned and then the master judge saw the spot# on the ground. The master judge thought for a minute and said, "no, no I don't think we got either of your boxes at our table." …The Master Judge then said "I wished we would have gotten the boxes from the team in spot # blank" At this point the master judge said he had to move along and then I see him walk over and talk to the team that he "wished he would have gotten their boxes."




I edited this post, trying to see if I could pick up what this MCBJ/Table Captain had done wrong. Please correct me if my thinking is wrong?

He is a Table Captain, he goes to a team afterwards and asks them how cooking went and what number they were assigned. I do agree, I don’t understand this questing for the MCBJ/TC. He then states he did not think he got any of there turn ins, wishes he had gotten turn-ins for X team, but does not think he did. MCBJ leaves, is seen carrying trophy for X team.

How did he compromise the judging? If he had been judging, how would he have compromised the judging?

I am not always as fast on the uptake as others, is the resentment and the feeling this person should be reported to KCBS that he will try and determine at future contest what Team X’s turn-ins are.

And Scotty, I would have to disagree…If it is a rule for just KCBS Reps and not anyone else how do you apply it to judges? I can’t seem to get anyone to answer if it is just for Reps, folks sure are quick to responded when they think the answer fits there point of view, but the silence is deafening when it does not…

Smokedelic
07-15-2010, 01:22 PM
And Scotty, I would have to disagree…If it is a rule for just KCBS Reps and not anyone else how do you apply it to judges? I can’t seem to get anyone to answer if it is just for Reps, folks sure are quick to responded when they think the answer fits there point of view, but the silence is deafening when it does not…
Ok...I'll take a crack at it.

It's an advisory for KCBS reps. It advises them that the only people who should know the team numbers are the reps, the person entering the scores, and the organizer, when they are writing the checks. If this MCBJ was not one of those people(which he was not), he had no business knowing any team numbers.

The advisory is written in pretty plain english, and it's intent is pretty clear.

Just Pulin' Pork
07-15-2010, 01:49 PM
Bentley the part that I really question is he knew what teams were in certain spots. He even said it, he told us he did not get this teams box because this team was in spot# "x". He even told us the number they used that day that they added to the front or back of the spot #. Its total BS knowing that this "Master Judge" is killing the credibilty of judging. It obviously is not as "blind" as we think it is! Trus me if you heard the conversation you would have been shocked! Bottom line is it is BS! He should never be allowed at a KCBS contest EVER AGAIN!!!!!!!

Bentley
07-15-2010, 01:56 PM
I still don't get it, but I sure appreciate the responses...

dswfondy
07-15-2010, 03:50 PM
That judge knew the number before the judging, thats the only way he would of known that his table didnt get a certain box.

We as organzers should not be putting numbers on the ground if they are going to be used in the box numbering process!

Thats the problem here, the judge walked around the day before or even that day gathering numbers up seems like.

deepsouth
07-15-2010, 04:12 PM
amazing. what a Dbag.

eurycea
07-15-2010, 05:04 PM
From the latest rep advisories on the KCBS web site;
4.44 Blind Judging
Question: Once the judging is over, can we reveal the names of the cooks to the judges?
Opinion:
No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers. The only person besides the KCBS Rep who should have access to this information is the person entering the results into the computer. And, they are not authorized to share this information with anyone.

February 17, 2006


So at no point nobody except the reps and organizers should know the team number? I've looked at teams score sheets after the awards and I didn't know I wasn't suppose to. Why do they put the numbers on the sheets if nobody is suppose to see them?

Pork Barrel Project
07-15-2010, 10:20 PM
I am a rep and as I was reading the initial post, my first (and lasting) impression is that judge is suffering from an extreme case of badge poisoining and was doing nothing more than blowing smoke about how he thought he had deciphered that contest's numbering system.

I've since heard from one of the reps at that contest who has stated the blind number the judge claimed he knew was not used, so the very foundation of that judge's claims has been invalidated. With his credibility shot (to me, at any rate), everything else that judge claimed he knew about that contest is just as worthless.

When I set up a contest in the software, I use a different set of criteria to fill out the roster. I made it my policy to never use any information (such as site numbers) for team numbers that was easily available to anybody other than the other reps.

Depending on how much information about the teams was provided to me by the organizer, the basis of the team number assignments in the computer could be ordered by the last two digits of the head cooks' ZIP Codes, sorted in reverse order by the middle three digits of the cooks' phone numbers, based on the day the organizer received a team's entry fee, spit out from a script I wrote that would randomly assign team numbers from the pool of registered teams, and a few other criteria that anybody outside a very small inner circle can only guess at.

I also rotated between several sets of blind unique numbers. Never used the same blind number at consecutive contets and none were ever evenly divisible by 100.

And Josh, you are right. One of the many, many, many gripes I have with the scoring software is that it includes the blind number on the printed reports, thereby effectively compromising one of my safeguards against judges (and even teams) from deciphering the correlation between team numbers and box numbers.

I fully understand how people would be upset by the implications of this judge's bluster. Even if the judge's "educated" guesses were spot on, his actions in speaking to the teams were totally inappropriate and unprofessional, if that term can be applied to a voluntary position. I would not permit him to serve in any capacity at a contest I was officiating and more than happy and willing to use my size 13 boot to emphasize my point.

Rookie'48
07-16-2010, 12:00 AM
FYI, Organizers can put a quick fix to this. THEY submit team name and numbers to the Reps. When I submit for RCR, the team number has NOTHING to do with their space number...its called a master excel sheet, nothing magical but this issue could never happen if more organizers did it this way.

WTG, Char :thumb:. That does seem to be a good way to stop jerk-offs like the one in question from doing this crap.

But my gut feeling is still that this so-called Master CBJ / TC should, at the very least, be given a severe talking - to, be ordered to re-take a CBJ class & serve a suspension from compitition BBQ that includes cooking, judging or being a Table Captain.

ique
07-16-2010, 06:27 AM
So at no point nobody except the reps and organizers should know the team number? I've looked at teams score sheets after the awards and I didn't know I wasn't suppose to. Why do they put the numbers on the sheets if nobody is suppose to see them?

No problem for you looking at score sheets...

The number on the score sheet is the "1st" number that is written in pen on top of the box. The 2nd number is on a sticker that is placed over the 1st number. When you are judging you see the 2nd number only. No one but the reps should be able to decipher between the numbers and figure out which team turned in a certain box.