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Anchors Smokeshop
06-30-2010, 07:51 PM
I was reading over the KCBS rules and it states that each time has to submit 6 identifiable portions of ribs, pork, beef and chicken.
I can understand that 6 portions of ribs would be 6 ribs, but the other 3 meats I'm not too clear on.
If I'm doing pulled pork, what constitutes 6 portions?
If I'm doing sliced beef brisket, what constitutes 6 portions?
If I'm doing split chicken breasts, what constitutes 6 portions?

Ford
06-30-2010, 07:55 PM
Chicken = pieces or slices.

Pork - enough for 6 people to sample but if you don't fill the box you will not score well. And if you do slices and pulled enough of both.

Brisket - about 10 - 12 slices usually although 6 is legal. And if you add burnt ends well at least 8 I'd think.

It's not rocket science fill the box with good quality food you want to eat.

Ford
06-30-2010, 07:59 PM
You could slice a Chicken breast into 6 pieces and turn it in and it's legal but I don't think it's going to win. You could turn in 6 teaspoons of pork and it would be legal but you're going to be close to DAL. You could turn in 6 slices of brisket and it's legal but the judges would thinking that's all that was edible.

Cooks Rule - not in KCBS - fill the box with food.

Greg60525
06-30-2010, 08:09 PM
One thing to remember is the pieces of whatever it is has to be completely separated. If you put exactly 6 pieces of something in the box, say ribs and one of the ribs is still attached to the other, the judge must take both pieces, leaving one of the other judges with nothing. Bad for your score. Except for chicken, because I usually can't get more than 6 pieces into the box, I turn in 8 or whatever looks good.

You can also put more than 6 pieces in a box, maybe to make it look better to boost your presentation score or to give the table captaing something.

Pork: If I turn in slices, it's 6 slices; if pulled into chunks it's 6 chunks; if shredded it's a little more gray area, but I mound up enough where each judge can grab a pinch. If I put both slices and pulled into the box it's at least 6 of each.

Brisket: 6 individual slices

Chicken: 6 chicken breasts. You can mix the pieces, they don't all have to be breasts, but remember each judge must be able to get a piece of whatever it is. They are not going to cut it up.

Hope this helps!,

PorkQPine
06-30-2010, 08:09 PM
I usually agree with Ford but in this case I believe that anytime you do more than 6 portions you are asking for trouble. Chicken and ribs are easy, 6 pieces of chicken, usually thighs and 6 ribs. Pork and brisket are a bit of a problem because you need to provide 6 portions of each way you present the product. If you do slices and burnt ends you will need to do 6 slices and 6 burnt ends. The judges are required to judge each sample so if you do slices and burnt ends a judge needs to taste one slice and one burnt end, etc. You can always do more but remember, if the one extra piece you put in the box is of lower quality that may just be the one a judge picks to judge. An extra rib or thigh is asking for trouble and there are no extra points for more than 6 pieces. Since pork is usually presented pulled an/or chopped the number of excess pieces is usually not a problem since they are mixed up and not individual pieces except for the money muscle slices.

pigmaker23
06-30-2010, 08:41 PM
Fill the box... if you are at Lake Placid stop by and say hello

Jeff_in_KC
06-30-2010, 10:21 PM
I usually agree with Ford but in this case I believe that anytime you do more than 6 portions you are asking for trouble. Chicken and ribs are easy, 6 pieces of chicken, usually thighs and 6 ribs. Pork and brisket are a bit of a problem because you need to provide 6 portions of each way you present the product. If you do slices and burnt ends you will need to do 6 slices and 6 burnt ends. The judges are required to judge each sample so if you do slices and burnt ends a judge needs to taste one slice and one burnt end, etc. You can always do more but remember, if the one extra piece you put in the box is of lower quality that may just be the one a judge picks to judge. An extra rib or thigh is asking for trouble and there are no extra points for more than 6 pieces. Since pork is usually presented pulled an/or chopped the number of excess pieces is usually not a problem since they are mixed up and not individual pieces except for the money muscle slices.

Don't believe a judge HAS to take both a burnt end and a slice or in pork, both pulled and a slice. And adding more is not asking for trouble. You just don't put bad pieces in the box. Simple. Listen to Ford... fill the box.

roksmith
07-01-2010, 06:05 AM
They should be sampling both, but how they score them differs sometimes. Some classes teach to score the best, but they shouldn't be.. They should be scoring both. If your burnt ends aren't as good as your slices, leave them out and fill the box with slices. Best appearance score I ever got on brisket was strictly slices. On the flipside though.. a box with only burnt ends and no slices may get the judges wondering why no slices..they might score you down based on what wasn't in the box. Same with chicken... you turn in a box full of nothing but pulled chicken.. and while it's legal and may have been your intent, some judges may begin to think you screwed up your thighs and had to pull it to make a box. I will say that they should not be judging based on what they think may have happened and should judge based on what is presented assuming it was what the cook intended... but it doesn't always happen that way.

Don't buy the "no extra points" line. You absolutely will score higher with most judges with a full box than one with the minimums. It looks better and the last judge gets to choose their piece rather than getting what's left over.

JD McGee
07-01-2010, 08:37 AM
More is always better...:thumb:

watg?
07-01-2010, 09:15 AM
Don't believe a judge HAS to take both a burnt end and a slice or in pork, both pulled and a slice. And adding more is not asking for trouble. You just don't put bad pieces in the box. Simple. Listen to Ford... fill the box.


Can someone clear this up? I have heard both ways, if multiple selections, judges must take a piece of each or they can take only one of the multiple selections, as long as they take a sample of one. I realize that it shouldnt matter if you have put your best stuff in the box either way, but I would just like to know. My guess is, it depends who you ask.:confused:

KC_Bobby
07-01-2010, 09:44 AM
I've attended 3 judging classes - took it once and volunteered to help twice. Two different instructors and each time I heard that as a judge you are encouraged to sample each if 6 or more of each selection is provided. But if a cook only puts in 3 of one selection and 3 of another, choose the one you want.

If a cook is putting in more than one selection, they are doing themselves a disservice if they don't put in at least 6 of each. However, it's not a rule that the judge must sample each or judge them in combination or score their favorite/least favorite of the multiple samples.

Providing choices are good assuming your samples are good. Each cook must decide what they want the judges to judge. Putting multiple samples in a box if they are not up to your standards just because it's the way you always fills the box makes no sense to me.

I believe teams should have a game plan on how they want each box to look, but when an adjustment to the plan is needed - do it.

PorkQPine
07-01-2010, 10:56 AM
For those who think stuffing the box with samples is the way to go let me just say that the only advantage would be in the appearance score, and that is if they all look identical. To try to increase your appearance score which counts 1/2 of the tenderness score and 1/4 of the taste score and put the other scores at risk doesn't seem logical. An extra rib or chicken thigh will only get you a better appearance score (perhaps) getting 6 ribs and 6 chicken thighs perfect is hard enough. It is your score so go for it but when you get a lower score you don't understand perhaps it was that extra sample. For me, as a CBJ, I don't care if it has 6 or 8 samples and I certainly don't add to the score if I see 8 ribs or 8 thighs, I might even downgrade the appearance score if they are jammed in the box.

Jeff_in_KC
07-01-2010, 12:26 PM
For those who think stuffing the box with samples is the way to go let me just say that the only advantage would be in the appearance score, and that is if they all look identical. To try to increase your appearance score which counts 1/2 of the tenderness score and 1/4 of the taste score and put the other scores at risk doesn't seem logical. An extra rib or chicken thigh will only get you a better appearance score (perhaps) getting 6 ribs and 6 chicken thighs perfect is hard enough. It is your score so go for it but when you get a lower score you don't understand perhaps it was that extra sample. For me, as a CBJ, I don't care if it has 6 or 8 samples and I certainly don't add to the score if I see 8 ribs or 8 thighs, I might even downgrade the appearance score if they are jammed in the box.

I fill my boxes to the max and never have to "jam them in there". I'll continue doing it the way I have been. I would only request that you continue to judge out in California and stay away from the midwest if you're going to score down for filling a box full.

Oh and by the way... it may ONLY be a presentation point but I've lost a contest by as little as 0.5718 and I know someone who lost earlier this month by 0.0002. Tell me that presentation point isn't just as important.

Jorge
07-01-2010, 12:29 PM
Fill the box, and if there is more than one option in that box make sure each judge can sample each option.

On the other hand, I wouldn't put anything in my box that wasn't my best available product just to take up space and make it look full.

Big Mike's BBQ
07-01-2010, 01:24 PM
Chicken = pieces or slices.

Pork - enough for 6 people to sample but if you don't fill the box you will not score well. And if you do slices and pulled enough of both.

Brisket - about 10 - 12 slices usually although 6 is legal. And if you add burnt ends well at least 8 I'd think.

It's not rocket science fill the box with good quality food you want to eat.

Ford said it all. Do not put any meat in the box that you do not want judged. This goes for selection also. Do not put in burnt ends if the taste bad. don't put in slices or pork with your pulled if it is over cooked. The worst piece that you put in the box shold be some of the best that you cooked that day.

Big Mike

PorkQPine
07-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Fill the box all you want, all I am saying is that you are playing with fire. BTW, I don''t score down for a full box, and I don't think judges score up for a full box. Just my opinion, that's what I love about BBQ, no one is afraid to voice their opinion and they are all welcome because that is how we all learn.

pahutchens
07-01-2010, 03:51 PM
I judge by what is in the box, NOT what could have been in box or a preconcieved what should be in the box. I have always taken a sample of each variation in the box if therre was enough to do so.
Chicken mixes when they have happened were usually thighs and breast slices.
I've heard after judging wistful comments for more burnt ends. I don't know how that may or may not have affected their judging.

While filling up the box is not a requirement and shouldn't be done to the detriment of your over all presentation. That said there are volunteers that graze (from a special area) anything that the judges don't pull out of the box. So its not wasted.

I will say this for me, my mouth waters more for real looking food. (and women)

Big Mike's BBQ
07-01-2010, 04:03 PM
Fill the box all you want, all I am saying is that you are playing with fire. BTW, I don''t score down for a full box, and I don't think judges score up for a full box. Just my opinion, that's what I love about BBQ, no one is afraid to voice their opinion and they are all welcome because that is how we all learn.

OK, one thing to add to what you are saying and maybe clear some things up. I do not STUFF the box full. I sometimes can fit 10 ribs in, 5 in each row shingled. and sometimes I can only get 8 in. I always leave a parsley boarder between the meat and the box. So when I say fill it up I do not mean get a tamper and stuff as much meat in as you can and then have someone sit on the box while you latch it shut. I only do that with my wifes suitcase when we go on vacation. You also do not want it filled so high that it touches the lid. I know judges are not supposed to judge down if there is sauce on the inside of the lid, but why take the chance. What most of are saying here is do not put 6 trimmed down small little thighs in the box, if you can get 8 or 9 in there. This is a meat competition, give them some meat to look at.
BTW- I did enter 6 puny little thighs at Mtown last weekend because my Breast meat was not cooked through nad my apperance scores on chicken were my lowest. You make what you want of it. I am going to fill my boxes up.

Big Mike

pigmaker23
07-02-2010, 05:22 AM
that just about nails it ! as you do more comps you will develop your own style and it will be second nature...


OK, one thing to add to what you are saying and maybe clear some things up. I do not STUFF the box full. I sometimes can fit 10 ribs in, 5 in each row shingled. and sometimes I can only get 8 in. I always leave a parsley boarder between the meat and the box. So when I say fill it up I do not mean get a tamper and stuff as much meat in as you can and then have someone sit on the box while you latch it shut. I only do that with my wifes suitcase when we go on vacation. You also do not want it filled so high that it touches the lid. I know judges are not supposed to judge down if there is sauce on the inside of the lid, but why take the chance. What most of are saying here is do not put 6 trimmed down small little thighs in the box, if you can get 8 or 9 in there. This is a meat competition, give them some meat to look at.
BTW- I did enter 6 puny little thighs at Mtown last weekend because my Breast meat was not cooked through nad my apperance scores on chicken were my lowest. You make what you want of it. I am going to fill my boxes up.

Big Mike

Ford
07-02-2010, 06:40 AM
I fill my boxes to the max and never have to "jam them in there". I'll continue doing it the way I have been. I would only request that you continue to judge out in California and stay away from the midwest if you're going to score down for filling a box full.

Oh and by the way... it may ONLY be a presentation point but I've lost a contest by as little as 0.5718 and I know someone who lost earlier this month by 0.0002. Tell me that presentation point isn't just as important.
My closest was .0002 - now that sucks big time when you see the score sheet.

PorkQPine
07-05-2010, 09:27 AM
Just got back from judging a KCBS contest and true to form there was a box with more than 6 ribs and one rib was way smaller (tiny) with the bone showing where the cut was made. It was a shame because the rest of the ribs were beautiful. If you are going to put in more than required you need to make sure they are all perfect.