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Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 08:36 PM
Im sure this happens all the time.

A guy comes to me 10 minutes before Brisket turn in, freaking out, his Brisket is at 150 deg. and he has been cooking it at 200 degrees for around 10 hours.

"Any Ideas" he ask. I tell him, pour your juices into a pan, get it as hot as you can, slice your Brisket and put the slices in it, get the meat turned in and at least get some points.

He does it, turns it in and gets 4th place. I tried a piece that he cooked, minus the boil after turn in and you had to bite and pull to seperate it. Rare at best.

How do you get a peice of brisket from 150 to done in 5-10 minutes?

How do certified Judges rate a boiled piece of Brisket high enough to get a forth place finish?

I was happy that the guy did well and won $100 bucks for his Brisket, I am extremly disappointed in the quality of the Judges.

I am even more concerned about a system that doesnt verify that the team turning in a box has actually any connection to that box.

Maybe that didnt make sense. You hand in a box, the computer goes ding, they say thank you. Maybe ask, "what team"? and verify that the team on the screen is actually the same as the team handing you the box?

It seems and I am certain that I am mistaken, but computers can make mistakes. I cant believe that a half done peice of boiled meat beat out 25 other teams...

smoke it if ya got it
06-20-2010, 08:39 PM
I hate it when that happens! What event if you dont mind me asking?

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 08:56 PM
I dont mind, it was Smokin the Coeur D Alenes. It was a great event, 29 teams, Fantastic bunch of people, awesome storm in the middle of the night, lightning, high winds, drivin rain, BARBEQUE!

It just puzzles the sh&# out of me that anyone can take a 4th place with boiled meat.

I am having a very hard time with that...

And dont get me wrong, a computerized system is a huge time saver, but it seems there is much more room for error. I have been building and configuring computers for 15 years, hardware, software, and I know that the things arent perfect. I am in no way knocking anyones system, just wondering what the chances are that possibly the computer might have made a mistake.

MilitantSquatter
06-20-2010, 09:04 PM
I

It just puzzles the sh&# out of me that anyone can take a 4th place with boiled meat.

I am having a very hard time with that...



look at it the other way... He gave it 10 hours of smoke @ 200 deg (not sure why he cooks at 200 though) and then he gave it some form of a supercharged boil that might have made it really tender and moist. Not that much different than someone using foil to speed the cooking process in a steam-like environment or the restaurants that boil and then grill. This is kinda like a reverse sear that's become popular.

Might start a trend on the comp scene after people read this !!!

bbqbull
06-20-2010, 09:06 PM
look at it the other way... He gave it 10 hours of smoke @ 200 deg (not sure why he cooks at 200 though) and then he gave it some form of a supercharged boil that might have made it really tender and moist. Not that much different than someone using foil to speed the cooking process in a steam-like environment or the restaurants that boil and then grill. This is kinda like a reverse sear that's become popular.

Might start a trend on the comp scene after people read this !!!

Not to sound like a smart ass here but wouldn't that be considered broiling?

Jeff_in_KC
06-20-2010, 09:09 PM
Whatever it takes, within the legal limits. Do you know what kind of brisket he was cooking? Maybe it was a thin flat. Maybe it was like a brisket Club Joe cooked that was DONE at about 170. You just don't know. Sounds like you gave him good advice.

Jeff_in_KC
06-20-2010, 09:11 PM
Not to sound like a smart ass here but wouldn't that be considered broiling?

Not as long as the heat source that boiled the juices was absent before the meat was added. And then if it was a big ass fire (and not electric or gas), even that doesn't matter.

Smoke'n Ice
06-20-2010, 09:13 PM
There is no rule against sliceing a raw brisket, placing it on a charcoal, pellet or wood grill and cooking it. This should only take a few minutes, depending on the thickness. WHY stay up all night? Inquiring minds want to know!
:doh::boxing:

Jacked UP BBQ
06-20-2010, 09:13 PM
That was great advice you gave him. If you take a sliced flat and boil it in broth and other flavorings, you would be surprised at the turnout. I know this first hand.

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 09:15 PM
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.

Jeff_in_KC
06-20-2010, 09:19 PM
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.

Then why did you give him that advice if you didn't think it would work?

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 09:22 PM
"Then why did you give him that advice if you didn't think it would work?"

read!

"Any Ideas" he ask. I tell him, pour your juices into a pan, get it as hot as you can, slice your Brisket and put the slices in it, get the meat turned in and at least get some points.



Actually I just realized that I gave him bad advice.

He pulled the meat out of the cooker, placed a pan with au jus back in the same cooker, seperated his meat then put it back on the same fire. In the juice.
I believe, correct me if I am wrong, but he seperated his meat, and continued cooking it on the same fire.

I really wasnt very clear in my advice, I was in the middle of preparing my turn in box.

Damn, trying to help a brother out....

Jeff_in_KC
06-20-2010, 09:25 PM
"Actually I just realized that I gave him bad advice.

He pulled the meat out of the cooker, placed a pan with au jus back in the same cooker, seperated his meat then put it back on the same fire. In the juice.
I believe, correct me if I am wrong, but he seperated his meat, and continued cooking it on the same fire.

I really wasnt very clear in my advice, I was in the middle of preparing my turn in box.

Damn, trying to help a brother out....

Brisket - completely legal. Pork, not. Although that is the most ignorant, ridiculous rule in KCBS barbecue. Another time and place though...

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 09:27 PM
ahh, your right! brisket yes, pork no no,

man I thought I was going to have to go to my room

monty3777
06-20-2010, 09:32 PM
From what I can gather Smokin the Coeur D Alenes is a first year non KCBS sanctioned event. What kind of judging were you expecting? I'm not trying to be a jerk (just sounding like one)....

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 09:43 PM
From what I can gather Smokin the Coeur D Alenes is a first year non KCBS sanctioned event. What kind of judging were you expecting? I'm not trying to be a jerk (just sounding like one)....

OUCH,

Cant see how there should be any difference. Judges are trained, and should be knowledgable.

If I go get a certification to work on your car, and you bring it in for brakes, you want them to work right?

Sledneck
06-20-2010, 09:48 PM
he should of at least offered to split the prize money ;)

Jeff_in_KC
06-20-2010, 09:49 PM
OUCH,

Cant see how there should be any difference. Judges are trained, and should be knowledgable.

If I go get a certification to work on your car, and you bring it in for brakes, you want them to work right?

So just who trained these "judges"?

Judges may be trained in any manner the organizer wishes them to judge or however they personally feel about the entries in a non-sanctioned contest. In a KCBS contest, there are pre-determined standards at any contest across the country. I know I am going to have judges judging my entries to a set of guidelines when I go to a KCBS event, whether that's in Missouri, South Dakota, New York, Georgia, California or anywhere. Monty's point is that you just don't know what to expect when you go to such an event. A perfect example of why KCBS sanctioning (or any sanctioning body) is important.

Vince RnQ
06-20-2010, 09:55 PM
I think you gave a fellow competitor some great advice and it worked out really well for him. Great job!

Alexa RnQ
06-20-2010, 09:59 PM
You've got a few different issues here. First, the box:

I am even more concerned about a system that doesnt verify that the team turning in a box has actually any connection to that box.

Maybe that didnt make sense. You hand in a box, the computer goes ding, they say thank you. Maybe ask, "what team"? and verify that the team on the screen is actually the same as the team handing you the box?

At the contests we go to, the rep gives us our numbered boxes and asks us to verify that their master sheet shows our correct team name and that box number, and WE check to make sure that all four boxes show that same number.

How would anybody else have that number or those boxes unless we let them out of our hands? The onus is on us to keep them safe, and to request a properly numbered replacement if we bash or crack one. Why would anyone else want to submit an entry with our number on it? I'm not quite following here.

Next, the judging:
Even at KCBS contests with trained, certified judges and the judging criteria spelled out on the CD, judging is subjective and can be wildly variable. That's just the nature of the beast, heartbreaking as it can be sometimes.

In the absence of sanctioning, or if you add local celebs/VIPs/members of the public to the judging mix, it gets even crazier. I have to have a really, really good reason to go to a contest under those circumstances.

Maybe it was one of "those" tables. Maybe he really, really rocked them on flavor. Almost certainly, the untreated slice you tried was nothing like what made it into the box. Don't let it make you nuts.

monty3777
06-20-2010, 09:59 PM
OUCH,

Cant see how there should be any difference. Judges are trained, and should be knowledgable.

If I go get a certification to work on your car, and you bring it in for brakes, you want them to work right?

I wasn't trying to be rude. But in my experience when I compete in KCBS contests I'm doing great to get in the top 10. Non sanctioned contests with my 5 and 4 year old in tow and its more like RGC. I just think that sanctioned contest provide more consistent judging.

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 10:23 PM
You've got a few different issues here. First, the box:



At the contests we go to, the rep gives us our numbered boxes and asks us to verify that their master sheet shows our correct team name and that box number, and WE check to make sure that all four boxes show that same number.

How would anybody else have that number or those boxes unless we let them out of our hands? The onus is on us to keep them safe, and to request a properly numbered replacement if we bash or crack one. Why would anyone else want to submit an entry with our number on it? I'm not quite following here.

Next, the judging:
Even at KCBS contests with trained, certified judges and the judging criteria spelled out on the CD, judging is subjective and can be wildly variable. That's just the nature of the beast, heartbreaking as it can be sometimes.

In the absence of sanctioning, or if you add local celebs/VIPs/members of the public to the judging mix, it gets even crazier. I have to have a really, really good reason to go to a contest under those circumstances.

Maybe it was one of "those" tables. Maybe he really, really rocked them on flavor. Almost certainly, the untreated slice you tried was nothing like what made it into the box. Don't let it make you nuts.

All good points,

This is a bar code system. You are given your boxes and enough matching bar code stickers, to place on your boxes. When you turn in your box, your code is scanned, and you go on your way.

The system seems to work, but there is, as far as I can see, no check of the computer, we put alot of time, money and effort into these cooks. Ever been to the store and bought something, and when the computer scanned it the price was wrong?

You knew that the bag of chips didnt cost 15 bucks, and you question the bill. Using this type of system with no verification, seems to leave a bit of a hole.

I guess my thing is, I would rather see that the computer actually scanned my box and I could see some sort of verification that what was supposed to have just happened, actually did.

I would rather think that instead of a judge thinking that a boiled peice of Brisket was better than 24 other teams Brisket, that the computer made a mistake and scanned the code to another teams tally, and gave this team someone elses score.

Your right, i didnt try the Brisket that he had left over, boiling away after the turn in, I wish I would have.

I am not at all heartbroken because he got 4th, I am honestly happy for him, he is a great guy, that babysat his pit, all night, in a raging storm, and took fourth place.

I finished about where I was hoping to finish, made major improvements over my last comp, and in all am very happy with the way the local association runs the contests.

I think i need to drop and email to those fine, hardworking folks, and see if there is a way to add a double check of the computers scan. Maybe something as simple as them saying the teams name after the computer scans the code, so we all can answer, "thats right". Or maybe a visual que, so that team names are not spoken.

I trust them, I do not however trust computers.

Jeff S.
06-20-2010, 10:26 PM
he should of at least offered to split the prize money ;)

He did, I refused. He earned it, I was just trying to help him out.

I consider myself a brethren

Funtimebbq
06-20-2010, 11:24 PM
Hi All,

This was a sanctioned event, just not a KCBS event. It was sanctioed and run by the PNWBA. They have their own set of rules and judging instructions. Most of it appears to be KCBS-like but there are differences including a 10 point scoring system and the use of barcode labels on the boxes.

Benny

Jeff Selle
06-21-2010, 12:15 AM
Daddy, did you know that the PNWBA certified about 2/3 of those judges this morning at 9 a.m. and they judged their first real sanctioned comp at 11 a.m. We did so-so, but we also kow that these judges are brand new, so we don't take it to heart.

Rub 'em Raw would love to see BBQ going strong in the Inland NW ( and we are prediciting it will)... but we'll need judges for that. If we cant draw them from the coast, we are going to have to grow our own, and -- like it or not -- at some point every judge is going to be a beginner...

We'll have to be patient.

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:02 AM
Jeff. I had no idea. Not at all unhappy with our finish either.
It was a fantastic event and I truley thank PNWBA and all the people that came out to cook, spectate, and judge.

We had a great turn out.

My wife ask me yesterday, her first event, "how do I know if our box actually got scored under our name" I think when she saw that stack of boxes something clicked. That's what got me thinking about verification. New judges old judges, yes it will happen, and boiled meat may do well again.

Just kinda grabs ya by the short and curleys

Jacked UP BBQ
06-21-2010, 08:24 AM
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.

Boiling point is 212 degrees so you are correct in your assumption.

Southern Home Boy
06-21-2010, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by Daddy's Butt Rub http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1315354#post1315354)
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.
Boiling point is 212 degrees so you are correct in your assumption.

:eusa_clapUm... actually, you're both a little off base.... 200* Kelvin = -99.4* Farenheit... Just sayin....

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by Daddy's Butt Rub http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1315354#post1315354)
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.


:eusa_clapUm... actually, you're both a little off base.... 200* Kelvin = -99.4* Farenheit... Just sayin....

oh brother....:tape:

RobKC
06-21-2010, 11:02 AM
Actually, the boiling point of water at CdA altitude is 208*F. :wink:

Jacked UP BBQ
06-21-2010, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Daddy's Butt Rub http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1315354#post1315354)
It was a small flat, very thin, very small, I tried a peice of the non boiled meat, it was very tough, stretched instead of seperating when you tried to bite it.

Im talking 5-10 minutes here, not 30. No way in hell unless you boiled it at 200 degrees kelvin it could have gotten done, or tender.


:eusa_clapUm... actually, you're both a little off base.... 200* Kelvin = -99.4* Farenheit... Just sayin....

Not sure I get this??????????????????

Jeff_in_KC
06-21-2010, 12:29 PM
Nothing wrong with injecting a little science into your BBQ!

ZILLA
06-21-2010, 12:56 PM
OK, so he takes the first, (?) however many slices from the thinnest end of the flat which are almost always more done than slices further up, simmers them for a few minutes in some tasty juices, lays them on the grass and gets a call. It may be that the judges actually got a few relatively tender slices up front with great flavor. Then you go and taste a slice from the middle that wasn't done. Maybe it wasn't the judges screwing up at all.

Then there is the possibility that all the lower calls sucked even more.

Smoke'n Ice
06-21-2010, 01:43 PM
The PNWBA actually has very good procedures and standards and in some ways they are superior to the KCBS method. All of us have issues with new judges and that is a fact of life but it is better to be newly trained than not trained at all.

Mistakes on reading the bar code are from human error. Someone put the wrong code on the item. The number the computer reads has to be correct because of the checks and balances in the creation and reading of the labels themselves. Once the computer reads them, a label is created by the computer with a human readable number which is then afixed to the box. This is as blind a system as possible as even the rep does not know this number relationship until after data entry unless they are fluent in bar code.

Southern Home Boy
06-21-2010, 02:13 PM
Not sure I get this??????????????????

It's just that the implication was that if they'd boiled their brisket slices at 200* Kelvin then it might have gotten cooked quickly enough to explain the call.

The problem is that 200* Kelvin is almost one hundred degrees below zero on the Farenheit scale. It wouldn't have boiled anything. In fact, a couple of minutes exposed to that temp and it'd been frozen solid and hard as a rock.

Just ignore me. The point was completely off track. I was just goofing around a little in a thread that had the potential to get a little ugly.:wink:

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 03:10 PM
The kelvin thing was just a blurp, nothing more.

Odd to me that boiled meat beat out 25 other teams is all. Boiled meat? I would hope that it was a computer glitch, rather than someone calling themselves a judge, thinking that boiled meat was beater than what 25 other teams turned out. 29 teams in total.

No smoke ring, greyish brown in color, no bark. But it worked, and it could not have happened to a better guy. We talked quite a bit. One of the nicest guys I have met at a comp. I am truely happy for him.

I needed to vent, got a couple atta boys, got a couple WTF's? always next time. now what did I do with that stock pot....

Jeff

LindaM
06-21-2010, 06:05 PM
Daddy, did you know that the PNWBA certified about 2/3 of those judges this morning at 9 a.m. and they judged their first real sanctioned comp at 11 a.m. We did so-so, but we also kow that these judges are brand new, so we don't take it to heart.

Rub 'em Raw would love to see BBQ going strong in the Inland NW ( and we are prediciting it will)... but we'll need judges for that. If we cant draw them from the coast, we are going to have to grow our own, and -- like it or not -- at some point every judge is going to be a beginner...

We'll have to be patient.

You think the new judges are tough, that is just not the way it is. I tracked over 2000 judges and the scores and any new judge will score higher at their first couple of contests because they have NEVER eaten BBQ as good as they get in competition and since they never ate competition BBQ before they are amazed at what they get. Look at contests that typically run a CBJ class on Thursday or Friday of the contest weekend and use those judges, score are considerably higher than a contest with all Master judges.

JayBirde
06-21-2010, 06:35 PM
First off, I would like to say Thank You to the PNWBA and the sponsors of Smokin' the Coeur d'Alenes. I think it went off pretty successfully and there is great potential for the future. I have also heard a rumor that Silverwood Themepark is thinking about putting together an event, so keep your fingers crossed!!

As a new event (in Idaho) we will definitely be going through some growing pains and unfortunately the judging was a part of that. On Friday, I was buying a couple of buss tubs at a local restaurant supply and the guy ringing me up told me that he was going to be a judge at the event. I asked him if he had ever judged a BBQ event before and he replied no. I then (assuming he was taking the PNWBA Judging Class) said that I think spending the $50 for the class to become a judge is a pretty good deal considering the food you get to eat...and he explained to me that he DIDN'T have to pay ANYTHING! It was just a ONE HOUR CLASS that was free and that he would then be a judge. Now, I understand that everyone has to start somewhere, but I also think that new judges should have to judge a minimum amount of competition bbq before their scores would actually count. How do you know how to judge something that you have never done before? I know....we needed judges for the event...I get it! But to know that out of the 25 judges at the event, 2 were from the PNWBA in Seattle and (not sure if he was new or not) one was from Sagle, Idaho. That leaves 22 inexperienced judges! Percentage wise that would mean 88% of the judges have never judged bbq in their life!

Now I will say that the judging seemed fairer than the last local competition (not sanctioned) because the guy that won grand champion in that event for his ribs came in 25th overall and 21st in ribs.

OK...I think I have vented enough too! I would like to congratulate all the winners on their hard work in the rather challenging competition. We went from sunny and 80 degrees on Saturday to lightning, sheets of rain, wind gusts and plummeting temperature overnight and I know keeping your pit at temp was a challenge! I was every 30-60 minutes to check temps and stoke the fire as necessary to keep my pit at 225 and got absolutely NO sleep! So, once again, congratulations to all the winners and let's hope that we can grow this competition even bigger next year!

Also, congratulations to Jeff Selle from Rub 'Em Raw! Way to go brother!

Alexa RnQ
06-21-2010, 06:35 PM
Look at contests that typically run a CBJ class on Thursday or Friday of the contest weekend and use those judges, score are considerably higher than a contest with all Master judges.
True in the East, not so in the West. Left coast contest scores generally run lower, and contests we've been at with high percentages of new/inexperienced judges are brutally low-scoring. We just don't see 680s and 690s.

monty3777
06-21-2010, 06:43 PM
any new judge will score higher at their first couple of contests because they have NEVER eaten BBQ as good as they get in competition and since they never ate competition BBQ before they are amazed at what they get.

There's your problem with KCBS judging. I can't imagine any other competitive event where a judge who has such limited experience can be placed in a position to score a product or performance. Though I stand by my comment that KCBS judges are more consistent then the judges you may find at a non sanctioned comp, it still boggles my mind how little training a CBJ actually needs in order to be a judge!

Spydermike72
06-21-2010, 06:48 PM
Odd to me that boiled meat beat out 25 other teams is all. Boiled meat? I would hope that it was a computer glitch, rather than someone calling themselves a judge, thinking that boiled meat was beater than what 25 other teams turned out. 29 teams in total.

No smoke ring, greyish brown in color, no bark. But it worked, and it could not have happened to a better guy. We talked quite a bit. One of the nicest guys I have met at a comp. I am truely happy for him.

Jeff

Jeff,

You said he smoked it at 200 degrees for 10 hours, that meat should have had one heck of a smoke ring and should have had pretty decent color by then. I am not sure it was boiled meat, more like heated up left overs... ??

musicmanryann
06-21-2010, 07:05 PM
There's your problem with KCBS judging. I can't imagine any other competitive event where a judge who has such limited experience can be placed in a position to score a product or performance. Though I stand by my comment that KCBS judges are more consistent then the judges you may find at a non sanctioned comp, it still boggles my mind how little training a CBJ actually needs in order to be a judge!

You have to start somewhere. While I am no comp BBQ historian, it is my understanding the whole CBJ thing is relatively new. It is quickly becoming a de facto requirement at many comps. While there are many with limited judging experience, they will eventually become experienced. The more that become certified AND experienced, the more leverage KCBS has to place more stringent standards upon the judging body. At the time however, it may be the feeling that placing more stringent standards will result in a shortage of judges. You still have to have one judge per team regardless. It seems at times it is a delicate balancing act.

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 07:08 PM
Jeff,

First of all, stop worrying about what the other teams are doing. That is a big begginer mistake. Secondly, did it ever occur to you that the judges just aren't that into your BBQ? Also, a fancy new pit does not a BBQ winner make. It's all about endless practice and consistantly good tasting results. New judges and bad calls are part of the game. Look inward to find the reasons for your results. Take a judging class to help you learn more of what they are looking for.

musicmanryann
06-21-2010, 07:14 PM
Is it possible he was just farking with you??:becky: You know, had a second brisket that got stuck, made up a story about cooking at 200--meanwhile there was a dead-ringer in his cooler? Pretty funny story if he actually did. Lol. You wouldn't believe some of the funny stuff I have heard other guys say, all in good fun, about how they cooked their entries. As a very gullible person, this does not seem to me to be outside the realm of possibility. :becky:

Jeff Selle
06-21-2010, 07:19 PM
Hey Northwest BBQ which "Jeff" are you addressing?

monty3777
06-21-2010, 07:22 PM
Is it possible he was just farking with you??:becky: You know, had a second brisket that got stuck, made up a story about cooking at 200--meanwhile there was a dead-ringer in his cooler? Pretty funny story if he actually did. Lol. You wouldn't believe some of the funny stuff I have heard other guys say, all in good fun, about how they cooked their entries. As a very gullible person, this does not seem to me to be outside the realm of possibility. :becky:

I was thinking the same thing. I would definitely do this to someone!

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 07:25 PM
Hey Northwest BBQ which "Jeff" are you addressing?

Jeff Sheets of Daddy's Butt Rub. You know, the OP.

Jeff Selle
06-21-2010, 07:26 PM
Ok, just making sure I wasn't in hot water here...

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 07:27 PM
Ok, just making sure I wasn't in hot water here...

Nope.

Jeff Selle
06-21-2010, 07:48 PM
You think the new judges are tough, that is just not the way it is. I tracked over 2000 judges and the scores and any new judge will score higher at their first couple of contests because they have NEVER eaten BBQ as good as they get in competition and since they never ate competition BBQ before they are amazed at what they get. Look at contests that typically run a CBJ class on Thursday or Friday of the contest weekend and use those judges, score are considerably higher than a contest with all Master judges.

I tend to agree with this... I don't have my detailed scores until my brother emails them, but when I glanced through them yesterday, it looked like we had a whole bunch of perfect 40s on that sheet. I can't wait to break it down...

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 08:08 PM
I tend to agree with this... I don't have my detailed scores until my brother emails them, but when I glanced through them yesterday, it looked like we had a whole bunch of perfect 40s on that sheet. I can't wait to break it down...

http://www.pnwba.com/results_2010/Smokin%20The%20Coeur%20d'Alene.pdf

This is the site, in case you forgot -----> www.pnwba.com (http://www.pnwba.com)

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:17 PM
Jeff,

First of all, stop worrying about what the other teams are doing. That is a big begginer mistake. Secondly, did it ever occur to you that the judges just aren't that into your BBQ? Also, a fancy new pit does not a BBQ winner make. It's all about endless practice and consistantly good tasting results. New judges and bad calls are part of the game. Look inward to find the reasons for your results. Take a judging class to help you learn more of what they are looking for.

Hi Michael, first off, no where did I say anything about my finish other than I was happy with it. I thought and still think we turned out some great que, and we had a great time. also, no where did I say anything about my my results. If you want to try to read between the lines, put on your glasses first. I didnt see any mention of any fancy new pit in this post, why is it, that when you have nothing good to say, you still do?

I really cant believe that you are trying to turn this into something that it never was.

I hit 14th overall out of 29, for a second northwest comp cook, I am damn happy with that. 5 spots behind rub em raw, is a major win!

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:19 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I would definitely do this to someone!

Monty, I dont think its possible, althought anything is as they say. I saw his box, on his way to turn in. It looked sad, but, as I have said all along, it worked for him and thats what counts.

Others are attempting to turn this into something it was not, and thats ok, rainy day, kinda bored, let them have fun.

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:23 PM
Jeff,

You said he smoked it at 200 degrees for 10 hours, that meat should have had one heck of a smoke ring and should have had pretty decent color by then. I am not sure it was boiled meat, more like heated up left overs... ??

It honestly looked all one color, sort of a grey, top to bottom. I was originally thinking the same thing about the smoke ring, and was honestly suprised when he opened the box to show me. As I keep trying to inject, he got a good finish, and if I helped him at all, so did I.

Coz
06-21-2010, 08:26 PM
Is it possible he was just farking with you??:becky: You know, had a second brisket that got stuck, made up a story about cooking at 200--meanwhile there was a dead-ringer in his cooler? Pretty funny story if he actually did. Lol. You wouldn't believe some of the funny stuff I have heard other guys say, all in good fun, about how they cooked their entries. As a very gullible person, this does not seem to me to be outside the realm of possibility. :becky:


That would never happen ...would it? :shocked:

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 08:40 PM
That would never happen ...would it? :shocked:

Oh yeah, if you take a competitor at his word at a comp, you get what you deserve. Think 180 from their advise. :becky:

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:52 PM
Yea, and I am certain that the person, would leave the event, turn around and show back up with a $50 bill in his hand, trying to hand it to you, because you said, "if you win, I get half"

Some of us, are honest

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 08:58 PM
Jeff,

Take a judging class to help you learn more of what they are looking for.

Two hour judges? no thanks

CBQ
06-21-2010, 09:28 PM
For what it's worth, I took first once for a brisket I cooked at 190. Took a lot longer than 10 hours though...

NorthwestBBQ
06-21-2010, 09:39 PM
Two hour judges? no thanks

I'm new but I have noticed how well the complainers do in the results. It's cool...:-P :becky: :clap2:

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 09:45 PM
I'm new but I have noticed how well the complainers do in the results. It's cool...:-P :becky: :clap2:
Man, what is with you?

Complainers? Are you even reading the same post? You do have me wondering though, how something posted on a forum would effect a guys scores... Interesting

barbefunkoramaque
06-21-2010, 09:57 PM
Lots of Nice wooden boats is what that area should stick to being good at. MMM the Cris Craft Colbra.

swamprb
06-21-2010, 10:01 PM
I would just like to extend a big Thanks to the hard working Board members and Head Judges of the PNWBA that have taken the time since March, holding Competition Cooking Classes and Certified Judging Classes in Washington, Oregon and Idaho, drawing in folks from British Columbia and Montana for this years events.

Holding a competition on Fathers Day, possibly kept some teams and judges from supporting some of our events this past weekend, but be thankful Coeur D Alene fielded 29 teams and it was very successful first year event, let alone a qualifier.

If you think it may have been hard to get enough PNWBA CBJ's, then what if it was one of the few KCBS sanctioned cooks? You would still have to have a KCBS CBJ class just to handle the amount of teams the area supports. We're not a BBQ hotbed, but there are a lot of Judges that are both KCBS/PNWBA certified around here and we all support each other.

barbefunkoramaque
06-21-2010, 10:06 PM
For what it's worth, I took first once for a brisket I cooked at 190. Took a lot longer than 10 hours though...

It is entirely possible to win a contest in RI cooking at that temp.

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 10:11 PM
I would just like to extend a big Thanks to the hard working Board members and Head Judges of the PNWBA that have taken the time since March, holding Competition Cooking Classes and Certified Judging Classes in Washington, Oregon and Idaho, drawing in folks from British Columbia and Montana for this years events.

Holding a competition on Fathers Day, possibly kept some teams and judges from supporting some of our events this past weekend, but be thankful Coeur D Alene fielded 29 teams and it was very successful first year event, let alone a qualifier.

If you think it may have been hard to get enough PNWBA CBJ's, then what if it was one of the few KCBS sanctioned cooks? You would still have to have a KCBS CBJ class just to handle the amount of teams the area supports. We're not a BBQ hotbed, but there are a lot of Judges that are both KCBS/PNWBA certified around here and we all support each other.

well said, besides the judges duties, they were out there, helping cooks, giving advise, which shouldnt be taken 180, and in general helping everywhere they could!

Jeff S.
06-21-2010, 10:16 PM
Lots of Nice wooden boats is what that area should stick to being good at. MMM the Cris Craft Colbra.

You ever been to the wooden boat festival they have on Lake Coeur D' Alene. Man there is alot of nice wood floating around out there, :-P

oops, sorry wavered a bit there

Jeff Selle
06-21-2010, 10:38 PM
Thanks for the link NorthwestBBQ, I was a ware of those... I'm actually waiting for my individual judge scores... my brother is going to log them and send them out to the team...

sitnfat
06-22-2010, 12:27 PM
you think he done good with his boiled brisket you should come down here and see how well my boiled ribs do! :)

Jacked UP BBQ
06-22-2010, 02:50 PM
It is entirely possible to win a contest in RI cooking at that temp.

Only texans can cook brisket.

KnucklHed BBQ
06-22-2010, 04:20 PM
Is it possible he was just farking with you??:becky: You know, had a second brisket that got stuck, made up a story about cooking at 200--meanwhile there was a dead-ringer in his cooler? Pretty funny story if he actually did. Lol. You wouldn't believe some of the funny stuff I have heard other guys say, all in good fun, about how they cooked their entries. As a very gullible person, this does not seem to me to be outside the realm of possibility. :becky:

Not possible - I'm pretty sure we're talking about Devine Bovine Chicken & Swine from Whitefish, MT... I bumped into them at a gas station in Lakeside, MT, 20 miles from home @ 11:30 that night. Had never met them before (even @ the comp), We noticed each others cookers in the back of our trucks through bleary eyes and chatted a few min while fuel pumped. They saw my ribbon on the dash and asked what I had walked for, and then brought up their miracle brisket and how dumb founded and amazed at the 4th place it had brought them.

They also brought up how they had been DQ'd in chicken for having had a piece of a toothpick break off in 1 of the thighs... even showed me the piece of toothpick that the head judge returned to them.

IMO, judging was definantely a factor in this comp. While I am by no means a seasoned competitor, I was surprised by the scoring on my brisket. Apperance and taste scores were 9's & 10's, but texture was 7's & 8's, the snap on my brisket was near perfect, it really was one of the best tasting & best cooked briskets I've turned in - Now, when I compared scores with another competitor who knew their brisket was over cooked (but tasted great) and sliced very thick, their texture scores were 9's & 10's

That right there tells me that we had judges that were used to eating home cooked type BBQ, not competition Q. Not bitching here, just an observation that I've made based on evaluating some of the score sheets.

I tasted the ribs that got 2nd and 6th, and Butts that were 1st and 5th, and they were good, so I dont think that the judging was completely screwed up, just needed a little more tenure and expirence...

I'm new but I have noticed how well the complainers do in the results. It's cool...:-P :becky: :clap2:

Bro! what's up man? don't know why you're so uptight, relax a bit, have a brew! Nobody's making attacks here... :grouphug:

I would just like to extend a big Thanks to the hard working Board members and Head Judges of the PNWBA that have taken the time since March, holding Competition Cooking Classes and Certified Judging Classes in Washington, Oregon and Idaho, drawing in folks from British Columbia and Montana for this years events.

Holding a competition on Fathers Day, possibly kept some teams and judges from supporting some of our events this past weekend, but be thankful Coeur D Alene fielded 29 teams and it was very successful first year event, let alone a qualifier.

If you think it may have been hard to get enough PNWBA CBJ's, then what if it was one of the few KCBS sanctioned cooks? You would still have to have a KCBS CBJ class just to handle the amount of teams the area supports. We're not a BBQ hotbed, but there are a lot of Judges that are both KCBS/PNWBA certified around here and we all support each other.

Well said Brian! I think that the 1st few years of any event (especially one further away) are going to be a bit tough to get fully off the ground and up to the same standard of competition and judging as the more populated areas.

Jeff S.
06-22-2010, 06:44 PM
Thanks Knuclehed, at least some of us got it. The guys from Devine were a pleasure to meet and I am very glad that I may have helped them out.

NorthwestBBQ
06-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Nobody's making attacks here...

Ryan, I don't see it that way:

I am extremly disappointed in the quality of the Judges.
I am even more concerned about a system that doesnt verify that the team turning in a box has actually any connection to that box.

computers can make mistakes.

It just puzzles the sh&# out of me that anyone can take a 4th place with boiled meat.

Judges are trained, and should be knowledgable.

The system seems to work, but there is, as far as I can see, no check of the computer

Using this type of system with no verification, seems to leave a bit of a hole.

I do not however trust computers.

I would hope that it was a computer glitch, rather than someone calling themselves a judge

Michael, why is it, that when you have nothing good to say, you still do?

Two hour judges? no thanks

Man, what is with you?

Complainers? Are you even reading the same post?

Yes, I'm reading the whole thread and I need to vent too.

Mo-Dave
06-22-2010, 08:07 PM
Well maybe just maybe almost all the other briskets were much worse than his at that table and it was the last one on the judges plate so it would have fared very well compared to the others and apparently there were not many very good briskets on any of the tables that day. It could happen and its not necessarily a sign of bad judging. If you look at the scores it may show a fraction of a point difference between lets say 20 scores and his won by a smidgen. I am just sayin.
Dave

Jeff S.
06-22-2010, 08:22 PM
Dave, yep, anything is possible. As i began the thread and have said all along, I am happy for him. And I am glad that I helped him to get his finish, however it happened, the look on his face holding that ribbon was worth it.

Michael, not sure what your problem is, maybe Im just your guy to pick on this year, and thats cool, do what you need to, I am way bigger than that. The judges did what they could with what they had, the cooks all did fantastic, the event was a great success, for a first year event, it was run very well.

None of the things that I said in any of my posts were attacks, most facts, some questions, and communication.

That what forums are for.

KnucklHed BBQ
06-22-2010, 08:34 PM
Well maybe just maybe almost all the other briskets were much worse than his at that table and it was the last one on the judges plate so it would have fared very well compared to the others and apparently there were not many very good briskets on any of the tables that day. It could happen and its not necessarily a sign of bad judging. If you look at the scores it may show a fraction of a point difference between lets say 20 scores and his won by a smidgen. I am just sayin.
Dave


Actually that is kinda what happened with ribs, 1st was a score of 184, 2nd 183, the next 4 spots had 182, and then a few points between each after that.

Aside from that I was honestly surprised by the amount of 9's & 10's on my own score sheet, I felt that we put out very good food that day, but a 10 to me is saying that its best thing you've ever tasted... it seems to me that as previously eluded to, new judges were overwhelmed by "the next level of BBQ", one thay they hadn't tried until that day.
This thread seems to be getting construed as overly negative of the styrofoam box process... Not sure if that was really how it was intended. Seems to me that it was a vent, not a whine...

NorthwestBBQ
06-22-2010, 08:55 PM
Dave, yep, anything is possible. As i began the thread and have said all along, I am happy for him. And I am glad that I helped him to get his finish, however it happened, the look on his face holding that ribbon was worth it.

Michael, not sure what your problem is, maybe Im just your guy to pick on this year, and thats cool, do what you need to, I am way bigger than that. The judges did what they could with what they had, the cooks all did fantastic, the event was a great success, for a first year event, it was run very well.

None of the things that I said in any of my posts were attacks, most facts, some questions, and communication.

That what forums are for.

Jeff, did I misquote (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1317249&postcount=72) you? As the the webmaster and photographer of the PNWBA I see a much larger view of the entire process than most people do. From the cooks, to the BOD, to the judges, vendors, organizers, and everyone in between I see very hard working people of the highest integrity. I have attended more than 20 comps. Do I find these (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1317249&postcount=72) comments offensive? Yes I do. Instead of hurling insults at me and playing the victim why don't you head on over to www.pnwba.com (http://www.pnwba.com) and make your feelings known?

Jeff S.
06-22-2010, 11:06 PM
Jeff, did I misquote (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1317249&postcount=72) you? As the the webmaster and photographer of the PNWBA I see a much larger view of the entire process than most people do. From the cooks, to the BOD, to the judges, vendors, organizers, and everyone in between I see very hard working people of the highest integrity. I have attended more than 20 comps. Do I find these (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1317249&postcount=72) comments offensive? Yes I do. Instead of hurling insults at me and playing the victim why don't you head on over to www.pnwba.com (http://www.pnwba.com) and make your feelings known?

Michael, no, you didnt miss cut and paste me, you just took what you wanted and left the rest behind. Whats your point, will you be satisfied if I attack you and start hurling insults at you? will that make you all better? You need to turn this into something that it is not, and guess what, its not working for you.

Sorry you find some or knowing you as little as I do, all of my comments offensive. You will get over it and whine about something else soon enough. As far as I see it, you have added nothing to this thread and you should call it good. I really dont care that you are a seasoned veteren with 20 comps under your belt. Wow 20 really? I missed you in Coeur d alene?

And the suggestions that I had for PNWBA have already been made. Just not to the photographer.

This post was about a competition, some boiled brisket, and a great crew that nailed a 4th place, with a little advise from a fellow competitor,

Not you...

NorthwestBBQ
06-22-2010, 11:18 PM
Michael, no, you didnt miss cut and paste me, you just took what you wanted and left the rest behind. Whats your point, will you be satisfied if I attack you and start hurling insults at you? will that make you all better? You need to turn this into something that it is not, and guess what, its not working for you.

Sorry you find some or knowing you as little as I do, all of my comments offensive. You will get over it and whine about something else soon enough. As far as I see it, you have added nothing to this thread and you should call it good. I really dont care that you are a seasoned veteren with 20 comps under your belt. Wow 20 really? I missed you in Coeur d alene?

And the suggestions that I had for PNWBA have already been made. Just not to the photographer.

This post was about a competition, some boiled brisket, and a great crew that nailed a 4th place, with a little advise from a fellow competitor,

Not you...

So, are you going to bring up your thoughts at www.pnwba.com (http://www.pnwba.com) or not?

Jeff S.
06-22-2010, 11:19 PM
Hey wow, a little off the subject, but you can hide posts from people?

Im liking this forum!!!

NorthwestBBQ
06-22-2010, 11:20 PM
Hey wow, a little off the subject, but you can hide posts from people?

I'm liking this forum!!!

Ignore them? Absolutely. But wouldn't that make you Ignorant? LMAO! :-P Peace bro...

BBQchef33
06-23-2010, 12:15 AM
ADMIN NOTE

I'm interjecting here once.

Keep the thread FACTUAL and civil.

from an outsiders point of view.. there are no personal attacks taking place here. Questioning a system or process is not personal.

Additionally, this is a vent thread as titled.. its not expected to fix an issue if there is any.. and venting here wont bring it to the authoritative figures who need to know, but venting IS why we are here.

Continue, but everyone keep this civil, and on topic...

NorthwestBBQ
06-23-2010, 12:16 AM
ADMIN NOTE

I'm interjecting here once.

Keep the thread FACTUAL and civil.

from an outsiders point of view.. there are no personal attacks taking place here. Questioning a system or process is not personal.

Additionally, this is a vent thread as titled.. its not expected to fix an issue if there is any.. and venting here wont bring it to the authoritative figures who need to know, but venting IS why we are here.

Continue, but everyone keep this civil, and on topic...



Thank you, Phil.

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 12:40 AM
Thanks for the response Poobah, this might make good place for others to vent about things that dont seem quite right to them, so they can express it, learn from it and move on.

Without fear of being attacked....

Lake Dogs
06-23-2010, 06:47 AM
Michael, regarding:
> ... PNWBA I see a much larger view of the entire process than most
> people do. From the cooks, to the BOD, to the judges, vendors,
> organizers, and everyone in between I see very hard working people
> of the highest integrity.

Perhaps it was just me, but I didnt read into his posts where he was trying
to knock the hard working people or their integrity. I understood it to be
more of a frustration that a boiled brisket was judged so well and pondering
as to why or how it could happen.

Jeff, all the way back to your original vent, I understand. Like Michael, I've
had the opportunity to work closely with vendors, organizers, teams, etc. on
many competitions, I've helped organize MANY different cooking competitions
of one type or another, judged a ton (the numbers add up after a while)
competitions, and have cooked in probably over 60 different cooking competitions
(now focusing mostly on BBQ). As a cook, it can be VERY VERY frustrating
when that happens. I'm afraid it happens more than most know. When it comes
right down to it, much of it is a crap shoot. Not only does the training of the
judges factor in to it, but the entries at that table and the order that they're judged.
Like was said earlier, they could've (and I'll bet probably were) the last entry to
be judged at that table, and were probably on a table with a series of mediocre or
worse entries. Theirs probably tasted pretty good, and *voila* they get high marks.
The inverse happens as well, where great entries end up on tables with a series
of great entries and they end up getting mediocre scores. Or, they end up behind
(in placement) an entry that was soooo bad that the taste lingers (case in point,
refer to BBQ Pitmasters show). Mediocre BBQ, with good luck (see above) can get
scored well, Good BBQ with bad luck can get scored mediocre, etc. It's all part of
it. The consistent high performers know this and know that on any day most anything
can happen. They're consistent high performers because they consistently produce
great BBQ and compete frequently. This is why GC and RGC are really the measure
most aspire.

This isn't a slight on the competition, the organizers, the sanctioning body, and
probably not the judges nor their training.

More than anything, it's all part of a single turn-in blind box system. There are
pluses and minuses to any system. This is part of the nature of it.

I'm very glad that you helped him out and glad that he got a walk.

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 08:45 AM
Thanks Lake Dog, I wasnt knocking anyone. You hit it on the head. Most of these guys have been cooking for years, and to see Devine hit a walk, with fourth was odd, and at the same time fantastic.

I say it all the time, you prepare, plan, attempt to do your best, and in the end, its a duck shoot.

I know this, most know this. I did a hot and fast on both my butts and my brisket, and never intended on placing with either. People say not to experiment at comps, but I feel it is the best place to do so.

Never did I complain about my finish, it wasnt about that. I did mention that the Judges were new, I found out later that most had been trained only 2 hours before the judging. Not, bitchin about it, only amazed that we cant build a larger judging pool, I have people constantly asking me at events, "how do I become a judge"? Im sure others do too.

I am a very easy going competitor, I dont take this stuff to seriously. I turned out some damn good que. I beat half of the pack, scores were inconsistant with everyones turn ins, propably happens alot.

Got a day off to ponder how to get more people intersted in judging, something that will work for all the sanctions, not just up here.

monty3777
06-23-2010, 09:12 AM
I think we have all lost sight of the real point to be made here. It's clear to me that the real point to be learned from this thread is that people in the Pacific Northwest think boiled, undercooked brisket is awesome!
:heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh: :becky::thumb:

Sorry, off to my corner...

Alexa RnQ
06-23-2010, 09:13 AM
amazed that we cant build a larger judging pool, I have people constantly asking me at events, "how do I become a judge"? Im sure others do too.
There's lots of interest in judging, and only a percentage of those who express interest actually follow up and take a judging class. Most we've talked to have the impression that they could stroll up the morning of a show and sit in, they have no idea that judges are certified.

Then those who do take a judging class do a contest, or two. They may do the same one, close to them, annually for a few years. But you have to remember -- the judges who do this show after show after show don't have ANY chance to cover their expenses like teams do. Dedicated judges do it purely for the love of the sport, and in the West that means doing a lot of driving just like the teams do.

And after hauling around from one contest to the next (and sometimes having to eat the scary food), then they hear of competitors talking disparagingly about "bad judging" or "new judges". Some take it personally, and drop out. Many continue doing the very best they can, given their not-specific instructions, and the fact that their job is based on subjectivity.

That's one of the reasons experienced judges are not more prevalent here, and Master Judges are treasures. It will take years of accrual to build a pool of experienced judges, so that there are more than enough for all events -- especially at the rate bbq in the West is expanding.

I would guess that about the same percentage of the public breaks out and becomes a consistent judge, as backyard bbq'ers go on to become consistent competition teams.

We've seen judges who made really awful noob mistakes, received correction/reinstruction, soldier on and work hard to become better judges, even trying to learn the details of the cook process. We always thank judges for their work, wish them luck (sometimes they need it too, think raw chicken), and acknowledge that we couldn't do what we do without them doing what they do. :thumb:

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 09:17 AM
I think we have all lost sight of the real point to be made here. It's clear to me that the real point to be learned from this thread is that people in the Pacific Northwest think boiled, undercooked brisket is awesome!
:heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh: :becky::thumb:

Sorry, off to my corner...

heheheheh

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 09:18 AM
Next Vent?

KnucklHed BBQ
06-23-2010, 09:23 AM
I think we have all lost sight of the real point to be made here. It's clear to me that the real point to be learned from this thread is that people in the Pacific Northwest think boiled, undercooked brisket is awesome!
:heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh::heh: :becky::thumb:

Sorry, off to my corner...

I feel sorry for those of you outside the NW that don't get such delectable little treats as we do. One of the best things about our brisket is that you can chew on a small piece for days and not actually break the surface of the meat. NASA is looking into using it as bungie cord material.

Kinda wishing that I had turned in my not-quite-finished waygu now...

There's lots of interest in judging, and only a percentage of those who express interest actually follow up and take a judging class. Most we've talked to have the impression that they could stroll up the morning of a show and sit in, they have no idea that judges are certified.

Then those who do take a judging class do a contest, or two. They may do the same one, close to them, annually for a few years. But you have to remember -- the judges who do this show after show after show don't have ANY chance to cover their expenses like teams do. Dedicated judges do it purely for the love of the sport, and in the West that means doing a lot of driving just like the teams do.

And after hauling around from one contest to the next (and sometimes having to eat the scary food), then they hear of competitors talking disparagingly about "bad judging" or "new judges". Some take it personally, and drop out. Many continue doing the very best they can, given their not-specific instructions, and the fact that their job is based on subjectivity.

That's one of the reasons experienced judges are not more prevalent here, and Master Judges are treasures. It will take years of accrual to build a pool of experienced judges, so that there are more than enough for all events -- especially at the rate bbq in the West is expanding.

I would guess that about the same percentage of the public breaks out and becomes a consistent judge, as backyard bbq'ers go on to become consistent competition teams.

We've seen judges who made really awful noob mistakes, received correction/reinstruction, soldier on and work hard to become better judges, even trying to learn the details of the cook process. We always thank judges for their work, wish them luck (sometimes they need it too, think raw chicken), and acknowledge that we couldn't do what we do without them doing what they do. :thumb:

Thanks Diva!

deguerre
06-23-2010, 09:24 AM
Next Vent?
Yeah. You comp guys scare me sometimes.:becky:

Lake Dogs
06-23-2010, 09:59 AM
We ain't right, that's for certain! I read here somewhere in the last week or so where
someone said competitors are only about a step or two away from carnies. He may've
been correct.

KnucklHed BBQ
06-23-2010, 10:49 AM
We ain't right, that's for certain! I read here somewhere in the last week or so where
someone said competitors are only about a step or two away from carnies. He may've
been correct.


Oooo, carnies huh? Ouch! I didn't think that we were that far out on the edges of society! :mrgreen:

deguerre
06-23-2010, 10:51 AM
Oooo, carnies huh? Ouch! I didn't think that we were that far out on the edges of society! :mrgreen:
Why do you think I mostly just lurk in the Comp Forum?:-D

KnucklHed BBQ
06-23-2010, 10:58 AM
Why do you think I mostly just lurk in the Comp Forum?:-D


Well at least yer not a chi-mo... I have to admit (since this is Daddys Butt Rub's thread) that I didn't actually meet Jeff of Daddys Butt Rub. Because I was afraid of his team banner... It says "Nobody rubs your butt like daddy!". I kept thinking, "that's only slightly better than saying "Nobody rubs you FRONT like daddy!"".

Jus' sayin Jeff... :becky:

deena
06-23-2010, 11:48 AM
Well, my account is still awaiting activation, so I'm using Christene's (she of the PNWBA Master Head Judge and former PNWBA President and wife persuasion).

First off, a quick introduction:
Anthony P. James
PNWBA President and Head Judge
Also the guy who wrote and maintains the PNWBA Scoring Program
Account name waiting activation (so you'll know its me if you see it): BBQBird

Start Soap Box:
I don't normally peruse this forum. Between work, and presidenting, and competing, and other normal non-BBQ stuff, I just don't have the time. (Heck, I haven't even finished Mass Effect or Bioshock yet, and both sequels are out! At least C & I have made it on to Halo 3...)

If ANYONE has a question about ANYTHING in the PNWBA - scoring, programs, judging, 9 am shots (something I just learned about), or whatever - every board member's email address and phone number is available on our website. Call someone or email someone. It is going to be a lot more efficient than 7 (?!?!?!) pages of forum posts.
End Soap Box.

Boiled Brisket / Judges:
To all y'all outside the Pacific Northwest: No, we don't particularly like our brisket boiled. Well, unless it is somewhere in the process of becoming pastrami. With rye. And spicy mustard. (Sorry, I haven't had breakfast yet.)
As I'm sure everyone has noticed, BBQ in the Pac NW is growing at a great rate. We've trained a load of new cooks AND new judges this year. In the case of the C d'A event (and Skagit Valley, as well) this weekend, it was tough getting judges, what with Father's Day and all. So, unfortunately, not all of the judges were ones that had sat through a full judging class. Also, some of them had, but were very new. With 29 teams (awesome!) fielded, you have to have enough judges; lack of experience is just one of the growing pains.
Remember, just as new cooks get better in only one way (cooking!), so do new judges get better in only one way (um, judging).
So someone happily did well with a possibly less than stellar brisket; chalk it up to "luck of the table" - as in, ending up on a table where they thought it was good. Was it the software assigning the wrong box to the wrong team? Unlikely. See the next bit...

The next bit...
Here's what happens between barcodes and teams and boxes. (If you want something more detailed [y'know, discussions of coding and database structure and so forth], shoot me an email at bbqbird@gmail.com. I'm just not going to get into that level of complexity here. I figure 99% of BBQers don't care to or want to know.)
1) A list of teams is created.
2) When you are handed your barcodes and boxes, one of the barcodes is taken from your set and affixed to the list next to your teamname.
3) The head judge (or qualified assistant) adds a team, scans the associated barcode, saves the team entry, repeats as needed.
At this point each team and their associated barcode is entered into the database.
4) At turn-in time, the appropriate category is selected on the turn-in screen. When you present a box, the barcode on that box is scanned. With a valid barcode, the program assigns the next sequential box number for that category to the box and the entry is saved. (The sequential number is reset for each category.) The number is written on top of the box for use on the judge score sheets.

At this point there is now a set of linked data: Teamname -> Barcode -> Category+Box Number

5) Judging happens, judges write down the box numbers they judge and their scores.
6) Scores are entered. A category is selected, a judge number is entered, and for that judge+category combination each box number and set of scores for that box are entered.
7) After everything is done, and before scores are generated, the program runs some validations. Among them:
a) That no team has more than the maximum number of points allowed
b) That no team has more or less than 6 judge scores entered for each box.
8) Finally, because at the end of the day the head judge is responsible for scores and results, they get an eyeball review.

Well, that's probably a bit more info than I intended, but what the heck. I hope it helps.

As a final bit of soapbox to all my fellow BBQers:
This is a hobby. It is a wonderful, fun, friendly hobby that many people are passionate about. But at the end of the day, it is still a hobby with a relatively small community. Get fired up about (and in?) your barbecue. Don't get fired up about each other. Let the flames light the pits, not emotions. (Wow! Upon re-reading that is a lot more poetic than I planned!)
Finally, the internet - and forums in particular - are a horrible way to communicate. We're geared for gestures, facial expressions, tone of voice to communicate much meaning. All of that is lost when communicating via bits and bytes. Its likely that something you think is infuriating or insulting wouldn't be nearly so much so if said in person. So try to respond just as you would if you weren't behind a keyboard, but were looking the person in the face. Get it? Got it? Good.

Sorry for the length, but hopefully this will put this thread to rest.

Thank you for your time everyone, and see you on the trail!

Anthony

KnucklHed BBQ
06-23-2010, 12:05 PM
Hey Anthony! Thanks for poppin by and helping clear things up!

Don't be a stranger around here, you'll find that 99% of the folks on this forum are helpful and great friends to have on you side.

We look forward to your help with future events!

Thanks, Ryan

deena
06-23-2010, 12:55 PM
Oh, now that I've registered for an account, I won't be a stranger.
I'm a guy who got his rear (and the rest of him) kicked out of the UW because I spent too much time one Usenet and Relay and forums. (pre-World Wide Web / pre-HTML / pre-etc. Heck, at the time it was possible to print a list of ALL of the IP addresses on the internet. It was a thick, but manageable, list.)

:icon_blush:

BobBrisket
06-23-2010, 01:05 PM
Oh, now that I've registered for an account, I won't be a stranger.
I'm a guy who got his rear (and the rest of him) kicked out of the UW because I spent too much time one Usenet and Relay and forums. (pre-World Wide Web / pre-HTML / pre-etc. Heck, at the time it was possible to print a list of ALL of the IP addresses on the internet. It was a thick, but manageable, list.)

:icon_blush:

Anthony,

At this point I'm going to ask you to refrain from posting under Deena's account until yours is properly activated. I'd appreciate that favor from you.

Thanks.

Bob

BobBrisket
06-23-2010, 01:09 PM
ADMIN NOTE

I'm interjecting here once.

Keep the thread FACTUAL and civil.

from an outsiders point of view.. there are no personal attacks taking place here. Questioning a system or process is not personal.

Additionally, this is a vent thread as titled.. its not expected to fix an issue if there is any.. and venting here wont bring it to the authoritative figures who need to know, but venting IS why we are here.

Continue, but everyone keep this civil, and on topic...




Once again, here's Phil's reminder.

Bob

deena
06-23-2010, 01:17 PM
No problem. Anthony will post on his own once he gets approved. Thanks to All

Christene

BobBrisket
06-23-2010, 01:19 PM
No problem. Anthony will post on his own once he gets approved. Thanks to All

Christene

Thanks.

Bob

Lake Dogs
06-23-2010, 02:52 PM
Anthony, you did also mention a good point about new competitions, especially those
in areas not quite so populated with trained judges, and that it's tough to get a whole
field of trained and experienced judges for first-time comps and many second-time
comps. While I'm right hear dead center of LOTS of BBQ and competitions, many new
competitions spring up literally a few hours drive away from any other one and a few
hours away from a judging base (if you will). First time it can really be hit-and-miss.
However, most, if they survive to the 3rd year or so, seem to settle in with judges.
Heck, in Vienna they even CHARGE judges to judge the competition. That was my
LAST year judging Big Pig Jig, but that's another story altogether.

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 03:49 PM
Anthony, good to see your joining the Bretheren.

Only thing I ever even wondered about the barcode system, which I think is slick as all #(*#, is the last time verification at turn in.

As I said before, my wife ask me "How do they know" we talked about it a bit, I explained what I have been told about the system.

We use a barcode system where I work, I actually used to help maintain it. Large SQL server database, over 10,000 people in it now.

Bar codes read in-correctly sometimes, it happens, $15 bag of chips at the store. the only thing that I can see lacking at all, is the person holding the scanner, turning to the entrant, reading the name back to them, so that everyone is certain that the code, the number, the box and the team, all jive.

That was all i ever had, and more of a wonder than anything else. Seems like an easy step, maybe not...

As I already said, your gals did a great job! My vent was boiled Brisket, and hoping that people, judges or not, could tell the difference. Not between my entry, but the 25 entries that he beat. Never did I attack you guys. You helped us have a really great comp over here, and I thank you again.

Sorry that someone tried to turn this around again, the only reason I dont post on your forum anymore.

I have recieved several private messeges and a few emails, wondering why another member took suck a defensive stance toward this post.

I think he took it personaly, although I am at a lose why he did.

Thanks once more...

Jeff S.
06-23-2010, 04:10 PM
Well at least yer not a chi-mo... I have to admit (since this is Daddys Butt Rub's thread) that I didn't actually meet Jeff of Daddys Butt Rub. Because I was afraid of his team banner... It says "Nobody rubs your butt like daddy!". I kept thinking, "that's only slightly better than saying "Nobody rubs you FRONT like daddy!"".

Jus' sayin Jeff... :becky:

I wish I would have had 100 tee shirts, I would have sold them all...

jus' sayin

Mo-Dave
06-23-2010, 08:39 PM
I am not familiar with this head judge concept of which you speak, please clarify. I have never judged a contest where there was a designated head judge, just table captains, reps and judges.
Dave

8) Finally, because at the end of the day the head judge is responsible for scores and results, they get an eyeball review.

NorthwestBBQ
06-23-2010, 08:43 PM
I am not familiar with this head judge concept of which you speak, please clarify. I have never judged a contest where there was a designated head judge, just table captains, reps and judges.
Dave

8) Finally, because at the end of the day the head judge is responsible for scores and results, they get an eyeball review.

Dave, A PNWBA Head Judge is the equivalent of a KCBS rep.

PimpSmoke
06-24-2010, 12:40 AM
f
As a final bit of soapbox to all my fellow BBQers:
This is a hobby. It is a wonderful, fun, friendly hobby that many people are passionate about. But at the end of the day, it is still a hobby with a relatively small community. Get fired up about (and in?) your barbecue. Don't get fired up about each other. Let the flames light the pits, not emotions. (Wow! Upon re-reading that is a lot more poetic than I planned!)
Finally, the internet - and forums in particular - are a horrible way to communicate.
Anthony

On the contrary, there are a lot of teams that sacrifice a lot to compete. It is not just a hobby to some. An organizer should know this.

Finally, the internet has made a lot of BS, just that, BS. And it has helped a lot of people overcome BS. Don't disparage our communication between brothers here. We help each other overcome BS. That's the beauty of the intrwebz!

Respectfully (since it seems that's what the PNWBBQA, is about even for members.)

Tha' Pimp.

Mo-Dave
06-24-2010, 05:56 AM
Dave, A PNWBA Head Judge is the equivalent of a KCBS rep.

Thanks I stand corrected, I assumed we were talking KCBS. I am unfamiliar with other sanctioned organizations.
Dave

BobBrisket
06-24-2010, 09:00 PM
On the contrary, there are a lot of teams that sacrifice a lot to compete. It is not just a hobby to some. An organizer should know this.

Finally, the internet has made a lot of BS, just that, BS. And it has helped a lot of people overcome BS. Don't disparage our communication between brothers here. We help each other overcome BS. That's the beauty of the intrwebz!

Respectfully (since it seems that's what the PNWBBQA, is about even for members.)

Tha' Pimp.


Bryan,

No longer a hobby, but an obsession or a passion, Yes?:thumb: How would you describe it beyond the point of being a hobby? I'd love to hear your take on it.

Thanks.

Bob

Lake Dogs
06-25-2010, 07:18 AM
LOL. Some of us use standard IRS type of definition(s), so unless it's your primary source
of income, pays the mortgage, car payments, food, light bills, it's a hobby, even if it
has "income", regardless of passion or investment, it's a hobby.

Jeff S.
06-25-2010, 07:58 AM
Bryan,

No longer a hobby, but an obsession or a passion, Yes?:thumb: How would you describe it beyond the point of being a hobby? I'd love to hear your take on it.

Thanks.

Bob

Let me try this one,

You can be passionate about your hobby, or even obsessed by it.

Like LD said, its still a hobby unless it is your primary source of income. Then its a job.

Ive never met anyone that was obsessed or passionate about thier job.

Jeff

Smokesman
06-25-2010, 10:40 AM
Let me try this one,

You can be passionate about your hobby, or even obsessed by it.

Like LD said, its still a hobby unless it is your primary source of income. Then its a job.

Ive never met anyone that was obsessed or passionate about thier job.

Jeff

Many different perspectives here - interesting! If I could do BBQ full time as my job I think the passion I currently hold would definitely carry over. I met Rod Gray (Pellet Envy) this past weekend when I was down in Jeffersonville judging. BBQ in various forms is his main source of income and he sure seems passionate about it! Great guy by the way with lots of good advice for young competitors.

Jeff S.
06-25-2010, 03:36 PM
ok, maybe Barbeque is the only job that you can be passionate about :confused:

Im all confussed now, think I will go boil some brisket...