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Bigmista
06-13-2010, 08:46 AM
Here are my turn in boxes for the contest I did yesterday. Let me know how you would score them. Please give me your first impression within the 1st 10 seconds of seeing like a judge would have to do. Don't study it for 10 minutes and say "The third parley leaf on the right has a drop of sauce on it."

BTW...if was my first time doing a contest all on my own.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10702.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10705.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10708.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10709.jpg

topchefvt52
06-13-2010, 09:01 AM
That all looks pretty good to me. You've got guts to present chicken breasts :)

The slice of brisket in the back of the box looks very thick but that may just be my old eyes.

Podge
06-13-2010, 09:03 AM
Chicken looks great ! 9
Ribs, the color, shine, etc look great, 9. ( I don't care for the meat placement though, but the ribs themselves look great, nicely cut too)
Pork meat to me looks a bit dull. 7 or maybe an 8. Nice placement though !. make it look moist and shiny, and some color, solid 9.
Brisket looks pretty decent. 8.

Smoke'n Ice
06-13-2010, 09:16 AM
Chicken - 6 grill marks look contrived
Ribs - 5 haphazard placement appear to be just put in the box
pork - 6 average just chunks not pull and/or sliced placement could almost be considered marking
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone

that is what I would have scored and am a cbj and cook both and would have filled out a comment card with these statements

Diva Q
06-13-2010, 09:22 AM
Chicken - 9
Ribs-7
Pork-7
Brisket-8

Three porks
06-13-2010, 09:22 AM
-Chicken looks absolutely great!! Nice shine not over sauced!(9)

-Ribs look good too. The rib at the bottom left is not rectangular but that's my only critique. Nice glaze, not over sauced and I like the arrangement! (8 )

-Pork I like the texture of your greens. My only critique is I would make certain to make sure every chunk has some bark on it. Although maybe they do but you flipped them for the every-other design. Nice work. ( 8 )

-Brisket looks so moist and tender. Color is good too. The back slice seems really thick to me but maybe its the camera angle. The grain on the left of those slices look so delicious. I guess the only critique and this may be because the camera emphasizes this is to make sure you brush your finishing liquid is evenly spread over the meat. It looked a little splotchy.( 8 )

Also great work with the greens!

So what were your scores and at what comp?

Rich Parker
06-13-2010, 09:35 AM
Chicken - 9
Ribs - 6
Pork - 8
Brisket - 7

Smokin' Bad Habit
06-13-2010, 09:42 AM
Chicken - 9
Ribs - 8
pork -7 (i like to see me bark) nice placement
Brisket - 8
over all looks pretty damm good!

watertowerbbq
06-13-2010, 09:45 AM
Chicken - 9
Ribs - 6
Pork - 8
Brisket - 7

I am asking this as a serious question and not an attack on the score. What was it about the ribs that made it a 6? I'm asking this as a contest cook who is looking to improve, not trying to stir the pot.

brockportbbqfest
06-13-2010, 09:52 AM
chix 8 - breast is tough, lots of courage to do that. I personally like a good thigh. Are the grill marks real, or branded on?
ribs 8 - I would always put a min of 8 ribs in the box. Remember you got 6 judges and you want to make sure the last one has at least 3 to choose from.
pork 9 - love the presentation here. Makes me want to try it.
brisket 7 - cut a touch thinner maybe. A bit of fat on the bottom of the piece closest to the camera.

Overall not bad though! Nice job!

I am a CBJ too.

anygrill
06-13-2010, 09:56 AM
Im no judge. But I am a Chef. All of the presentations look good so I would give a 7 on that.
The grill marks on the chicken along with the shineyness of the sauce looks great. So a 8 would be given.
The Ribs. Oh the ribs look fantastic, moist and I would be honered to run one of those pig cicles between my lips.. So a 10
The pulled pork. At first glance it kinda looked like BBQ chicken legs because It hadn't been pulled, but it looks moist and has a very nice color. so a 6
The brisket looks dry and a little thick. As a Chef it looks like you may have been rushed or you thought you didnt have the time to have it ready for the judges so you cut it too early. A 5 for that.
LIke I said im no judge. It is hard for anyone to judge on Pron alone. Other factors such as smell and taste are involved with overall scoring ( I would think ).
Like my Grandmother always said " The proof is in the pudding "
Im sure you did well in the comp.

ThomEmery
06-13-2010, 09:59 AM
http://www.kcbs.us/events.php?year=2010&month=6&id=2217

I like that chicken box
We went very traditional at this contest
12th place over all
4th in Ribs
8th Brisket
Reserve in Best Booth
1st in Most Creative PC items
Cobblers, Pig Candy Tri Tip, Meat Balls

Bigmista
06-13-2010, 10:00 AM
That all looks pretty good to me. You've got guts to present chicken breasts :)

The slice of brisket in the back of the box looks very thick but that may just be my old eyes.

I figured I plan to only do one comp this year so why not go out swinging. That is actually 2 slices in the back. Camera angle.

Chicken - 6 grill marks look contrived
Ribs - 5 haphazard placement appear to be just put in the box
pork - 6 average just chunks not pull and/or sliced placement could almost be considered marking
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone

that is what I would have scored and am a cbj and cook both and would have filled out a comment card with these statements

The grill marks were contrived. I've been planning it for weeks. I showed the rep my pork box and he didn't have any problem with it. And he is a KCBS board member. And I thought as a KCBS Judges you are supposed to judge the meat in the box, instead of what isn't in the box. Your statement suggests that you would mark down because there isn't any sliced or pulled. Perhaps a refresher course is in order? Glad all judges aren't as tough as you.

-Chicken looks absolutely great!! Nice shine not over sauced!(9)

-Ribs look good too. The rib at the bottom left is not rectangular but that's my only critique. Nice glaze, not over sauced and I like the arrangement! (8 )

-Pork I like the texture of your greens. My only critique is I would make certain to make sure every chunk has some bark on it. Although maybe they do but you flipped them for the every-other design. Nice work. ( 8 )

-Brisket looks so moist and tender. Color is good too. The back slice seems really thick to me but maybe its the camera angle. The grain on the left of those slices look so delicious. I guess the only critique and this may be because the camera emphasizes this is to make sure you brush your finishing liquid is evenly spread over the meat. It looked a little splotchy.( 8 )

Also great work with the greens!

So what were your scores and at what comp?

My plan on the pork was to present alternating pieces of bark and interior meat for the judges. You'll notice there are 6 pieces of each.

Here are my places

Chicken 32nd
Ribs 10th
Pork 26th
Brisket 5th.

13th Overall out of 57 teams. Biggest KCBS contest in California ever.

I'll post my appearance scores in a bit.

Rich Parker
06-13-2010, 10:09 AM
I am asking this as a serious question and not an attack on the score. What was it about the ribs that made it a 6? I'm asking this as a contest cook who is looking to improve, not trying to stir the pot.

I don't mind at all.

My first thought when seeing the box is confused and makes it hard to think I want to eat it when I can't focus on the meat.

I think the layout is definitely the problem because when I went back to look at the box and pay more attention I thought maybe I scored it to low. But with only a couple of seconds to score I guess that is what happens.

Bigmista
06-13-2010, 10:36 AM
Appearance Scores:

Chicken 9 9 8 8 7 8
Ribs 8 7 8 7 9 8
Pork 8 8 8 8 8 8
Brisket 9 9 8 9 9 7

G$
06-13-2010, 10:37 AM
I
Here are my places

Chicken 32nd
Ribs 10th
Pork 26th
Brisket 5th.


So let me add some perspective now that Neil gave the final scores. To me, the brisket LOOKS like the lowest score. The chicken and pork LOOK like the highest score. (At least how I would judge them.

I don't intend to minimize appearance, but all should bear in mind the relative weight of the appearance score

thenewguy
06-13-2010, 10:40 AM
Just my opinion...so take it for what it's worth.
chicken looks like a couple of bumble bees there. I'm of the school that smoked chicken shouldn't have sear marks.
Ribs look like they came from different sets of racks-uniformity is far off.
Pork looks too much like marking too me, I'd have been too scared to try that.
Brisket looks fine, although the left sides looks overdone.
I'm sure it was all delicious though.

G$
06-13-2010, 10:53 AM
Appearance Scores:

Chicken 9 9 8 8 7 8
Ribs 8 7 8 7 9 8
Pork 8 8 8 8 8 8
Brisket 9 9 8 9 9 7

Your brisket scores were higher than I would have given. (And good job)

jimbloomfield
06-13-2010, 11:10 AM
Was there at the comp and will attest Bigmista did this on his own. The only team I saw that was a one man show.Good food and Good tunes at the Bigmista tent.

http://www.jimsbarbecue.com/gallery/CostaMesa2010/kristiesbbq_comp_0013_std.jpg

Jorge
06-13-2010, 11:17 AM
Chicken - 6 grill marks look contrived
Ribs - 5 haphazard placement appear to be just put in the box
pork - 6 average just chunks not pull and/or sliced placement could almost be considered marking
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone

that is what I would have scored and am a cbj and cook both and would have filled out a comment card with these statements

Glad you are cooking Bedford, and not judging:-P:becky:

Tough scores.

Chicken- The grill marks could be contrived, or could be from a thick cast iron grate. Beyond that the knife work was nice, it has a nice glaze, and good color. The cook went outside of the norm, and it appears he did it well to me. I'd have given it a 7-9 depending on how it looked in person.

Ribs- I think if they were placed in the box a little differently, I'd be likely to score the box higher. As it is, I like they way those ribs look. They appear to be well cooked, and that attention has been given to detail based on how the sauce has been set, and how they've been sliced. Again it's 7-9 from me depending on how they looked in person.

Pork- I agree that some larger chunks would help the appearance. On the other hand I really like the contrast on color. It may be the picture, but it looks like a little spritz of something before the box went in would have made it appear more moist. In person probably a 7-8. I'm not seeing an issue with marking. If it is a violation of the rule, then KCBS needs to produce some templates that will effectively kill the options a cook has and the creativity many use to their advantage. I'd consider the chicken a likelier candidate for being questioned for marking than the pork.

Brisket- The lack of definition in the back two slices stands out to me. The layout just isn't quite uniform. I think it may have benefited from a little spritz as well to make it appear more moist. In person, it may have been a 9. Based on the pic, I'm going with 7-8.

My .02. Having been able to spend some time talking to Mack, I've got a much better understanding of his post I think. If you ask him a question, you will get a direct and honest answer. That's the way I read his post. For those of you that haven't had the opportunity to meet him, you might want to make sure that you don't read too much into what he had to say.

ModelMaker
06-13-2010, 12:15 PM
There's Mista in his black tent!! I jus hav t laugh, perfect!!
Chicken as presented, 8 looks well cooked, sauced well, grill marks lost the 9.
Ribs 8, meat looks very tasty, don't care for stair step look.
Pork 9 great presentation, looks like it needs eatin
Brisket 8 left side looks like it got all the sauce attention, back 2 pcs need same layout as first 4, meat looks very tasty.
Nice work Mista.
Carry on.
Ed

big brother smoke
06-13-2010, 12:19 PM
Nice showing, Neil!

Chix 8 nice, ballsy to cook breasts
Ribs 8 Rib on left looks out of place based on size
Pork 7 looks dull with no sheen
Briskie 8 Looks like briskie, nothing special +/-

2Fat
06-13-2010, 03:11 PM
think the scores (appearance) you got were just about right on the money!!!!! The judges were smart enuf to judge as presented---very nice work!!!

monty3777
06-13-2010, 03:21 PM
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone



How in Cliff's name would you know if the brisket was overdone by looking at it?

barbefunkoramaque
06-13-2010, 04:00 PM
Probably one of the best Chicken's I have seen and def the best Breast I have seen. I am wondering whether you wrapped a lamp cord around the chicken and plugged it in to get those precise grill marks. You chicken grill marks are the equivalent of your best friend's 17 year old daughter asking you if she looks good in her painted on jeans.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10702.jpg

Ribs are kinda odd. the arrangement of them... but it makes me think how unfortunate it is the judges cannot have your REAL ribs. They also look a bit Chinese Restaurant pink for me. So that means I bet they do well.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10705.jpg

I think this is a brilliant arrangement and i wonder how many do it this way. I love part bark and part money meat. It makes me realize I am right for not chopping up my pulled pork and pouring goo in it to serve. Bravo.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10708.jpg


This brisket looks great and I wonder what it tasted like before it was dyed with drippings afterward. I bet it tasted good too.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10709.jpg[/QUOTE]

barbefunkoramaque
06-13-2010, 04:09 PM
Chicken - 6 grill marks look contrived
Ribs - 5 haphazard placement appear to be just put in the box
pork - 6 average just chunks not pull and/or sliced placement could almost be considered marking
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone

that is what I would have scored and am a cbj and cook both and would have filled out a comment card with these statements

Respect at you but I disagree.

Using words like "contrived" and score down without proper investigation does not seem in the spirit of your responsibilities as a judge. I mean I have had instances where I would see something and think - it looks untender... then taste it and I was wrong. I see how maybe if something looks dry then its not appealing but "contrived" grills marks would be like faulting someone for making something too appealing. I mean Myron's Pillow Chick is about as "contrived" as you get and personally... the entire process of appearance in most states these days is a big huge excersise in the contrivial arts. I mean **** man, the whole parsely thing with teams clipping and vaccuming.... i mean its like the prep that Jenna Hayes goes through before one of her porn scenes... trimming, clipping, and anal bleaching her coochie... of course... what a coochie and I would LOVE that job but too much is too much.

Plus there's another thing. Anyone who has done a KCBS entry and did well knows that the whole chicken turn in is about as contrived matter as anything. We select perfection, flip over the skin, scrap out extra fat, re attach, trim to perfect fit, pat dry, let rest in free air in the fridge, season evenly, smoke, dress with glaze then place on a bed of trimmed coochie hairs after selecting 6 from a possible 12 or so. Heck, some even vacuum the bed of parsley after its trimmed so one of our judges does not get a pubic hair in the throat while they are going down on the juicy cuts of meat flaps. Hold it... what am I talking about here?

I agree with the ribs as I said just that. I am not sure what you were going after here. Looks like the box got bumped. But if you count off for something being too "contrived" then his rib entry should be a 10! Its literally thrown in.

On the pulled pork once again - see comment about "contrived." It either IS marking or it is NOT. Now if the rules say he has to turn in sliced then he has too. If its traditional then at nearly every KCBS contest where someone turns in a legal chicken salad then they are marking? LOL Plus, pulled pork is about as new to where Bigmista is as Brisket was at the Jack Daniels when I was there in the 1990's. So do the rules SAY you have to have some sliced PP?

LOL on the brisket... Texas Transplant? IBCA Judge or KCBS? Texas and west are not #2 Pencil states and furthermore I do not see anything that would make me think it was of pot roast consistency. But lets just say it was. This is my problem with judges--- esp ones that do not or cannot cook (not talking about you) or newcomers to the Sport of BBQ that have only been judges for maybe 10 years or less (once again maybe not you). The same comment I made about "contrived" applies here. You should not judge a category such as tenderness from appearance. You are going to be able to pick up that piece in a few minutes and ascertain whether the marks are contrived or the beef is tender or not. If you took off for tenderness (being too loose) in appearance then what are you going to do if you pick up a slice and it has the snap to it. You gonna add on to the appearance scores.

That is just bad judging if you would do that out of this forum. Now you may be doing it here because you cannot taste or feel it and that I understand.


Neil prob used a graton edge too so falling apart is out. If it is sliced like that then until you touch it you can;t make a "pot roast" judgment. To me, and Neil knows how many tons of brisket I make, its looks like it will hold together.

Overall, your marks on this look more like an abuse of authority without any sustainable proof. You say the marks look contrived, that he has marked the pork entry (without him violating a thing - heck some people's sauces are more marking than anything LOL) and although you have a "tenderness" category you will judge later, you are going to both condemn the entry without any knowledge of it being tender or not and assign DOUBLE points if it is. I know you want to tie "tenderness" into the whole "you eat with your eyes first" cliche but what if you are wrong - and in the case I think you might be.

Smoke'n Ice
06-13-2010, 05:45 PM
We were asked to judge the appearance, which is what I did, and hence the scores. The comments were to indicate the frame of mind that I, as a judge, would be in when it came time to taste.

If the brisket passed the pull test, was not dry, etc. then it would have been judged accordingly but the appearance score would have remained the same.

The ribs were truly haphazard, the middle one appears to be out of place and smaller than the rest. It may be the camera angle but, the eye is drawn to it. No matter what, at a contest, small items will be the only difference between the best and not so best.

The chicken looked like an ad photo shoot. It would have had to be above and beyond for me to give it anything other than average scores.

The pork can be considered marking. A friend of mine was DQ'd at the Royal for a similar presentation. "You Pays Your Money, You Take Your Chances."

Whether it is there or not, whether a judge is suppose too or not, IT DOES HAPPEN! Preconceived ideas from the apperance phase will influence the judges frame of mind. Go too far outside the box and you can hurt yourself. Just my .02 worth.

I suspect that, based on subsequent posts, the chicken did not meet the "appearance" billing, the brisket was not pot roast and received good scores in taste and texture, the pork chunks were not received well and there were no other items (pulled or sliced) to mitigate the taste/texture and the ribs were middle of the road.

By the way, I am my own worst critic, and most of the time I deserve it.

Mack Yarbrough
Smoke'n Ice

Smoke'n Ice
06-13-2010, 06:15 PM
As far as requirements of KCBS for turn in, the only ones are the ones posted on their web site.

There is no requirement that the brisket be sliced
There is no requirement of the type or piece of chicken or cornish game hen
There is no requirement for pork, sliced, pulled, chunked.
There is no requirment for pork ribs other than spare or loin back or baby back

We each select what we think will win.

I personally like to turn in both pulled, sliced and chunked pork as the judges are asked to sample all of the items in the box and this can overcome a poor piece as the judge will give an average of all.

I don't believe that chopped brisked would have a chance, so I slice it, use angus prime, no sauce and, if they are worth a s@!t, burnt ends.

Chicken thighs are my preference (free range and small, no scrapping required) and they hold moisture.

Baby backs from Sam's as they are full of fat and stand up to the cooking and don't dry out.

PM me and I will even give out other secrets if you will give me some. I can't seem to win for trying!

mmmmeat
06-13-2010, 06:49 PM
first off, what is marking? second congrats to ya Bigmista!! everything looked great. and a special congrats for that 5th place "potroasty" brisket... looks great

big matt
06-13-2010, 08:32 PM
Looks great Neil...it was also nice to meet a true brethren in person..good job!

swamprb
06-13-2010, 08:37 PM
We were asked to judge the appearance, which is what I did, and hence the scores. The comments were to indicate the frame of mind that I, as a judge, would be in when it came time to taste.

If the brisket passed the pull test, was not dry, etc. then it would have been judged accordingly but the appearance score would have remained the same.

The ribs were truly haphazard, the middle one appears to be out of place and smaller than the rest. It may be the camera angle but, the eye is drawn to it. No matter what, at a contest, small items will be the only difference between the best and not so best.

The chicken looked like an ad photo shoot. It would have had to be above and beyond for me to give it anything other than average scores.

The pork can be considered marking. A friend of mine was DQ'd at the Royal for a similar presentation. "You Pays Your Money, You Take Your Chances."

Whether it is there or not, whether a judge is suppose too or not, IT DOES HAPPEN! Preconceived ideas from the apperance phase will influence the judges frame of mind. Go too far outside the box and you can hurt yourself. Just my .02 worth.

I suspect that, based on subsequent posts, the chicken did not meet the "appearance" billing, the brisket was not pot roast and received good scores in taste and texture, the pork chunks were not received well and there were no other items (pulled or sliced) to mitigate the taste/texture and the ribs were middle of the road.

By the way, I am my own worst critic, and most of the time I deserve it.

Mack Yarbrough
Smoke'n Ice


I see now what a great mentor you were to Raven's Fyre, and when I post pics for judges opinions in PNWBA, Christene and Anthony are the first to reply with thoughtful and honest responses. I judge and cook and am my own worst critic too.

I thought the grill marks on the Chicken looked contrived too, and know I can get some weird marks with our process so we roll with those risks. I cook breasts. The judges apparently didn't mind too much on 'Mistas.

Like the color on the Ribs, but first impression looked like they were thrown in the box to get it to the judges.

The Pork arrangement is nice- I'm thinking the turtle was the inspiration! I'm inspired.

Like the Brisket box, and have no problem with the au jus.

Plowboy
06-13-2010, 08:45 PM
I'd give you 9's across the board.

beam boys bbq
06-13-2010, 08:58 PM
chicken breast are out of the norm but you might get an att boy for doing something different

they do like grill marks is what i have heard from many judege

brisket there is fat on the bottom side and even sliced brisket pc is what they like

the rest is game on

good thing you are in ca :heh:

york
beam boys bbq

Bentley
06-13-2010, 09:57 PM
I personally like to turn in both pulled, sliced and chunked pork as the judges are asked to sample all of the items in the box and this can overcome a poor piece as the judge will give an average of all.


You keep thinking that...I garenteeeee you all judges do not average...Some will give the score of the worst piece...You put it in the box, not me.

Bentley
06-13-2010, 10:06 PM
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/Quen%20for%20Kids%202010%20turn%20in%20boxes/SDC10705.jpg


I know this is a long shot, but Neil, I swear that box hit my table and I Picked that middle rib and I gave it 3 nines...Did you get a 999 by any judge?

CivilWarBBQ
06-13-2010, 10:42 PM
I know this is a long shot, but Neil, I swear that box hit my table and I Picked that middle rib and I gave it 3 nines...Did you get a 999 by any judge?

Please don't do this.

As a KCBS judge you are specifically directed not to tell cooks if you think you judged their box. Doing so sabotages the carefully protected double-blind system, and no good can come of it.

timzcardz
06-14-2010, 07:01 AM
Neil, Nice Job!

Chicken 9
Ribs 8
Pork 7
Brisket 8


I LOVE the chicken breast! Gutsy move, and it looks B-E-A-utiful!

I see what you were going for in the rib layout, and the ribs look nice.

The pork looks good, but just not that inviting to me.

Bigmista
06-14-2010, 10:28 AM
Some of you say the rib box looked rushed. It was. Actually everything was because I was doing it by myself. The person I was expecting to be there helping in the morning couldn't make it so I was unprepared and flying solo. And I just went for the best 7 bones I could find. Out of 5 racks, 2 were useless because they pulled back too far. The other had a bunch of crooked bones (st. louis cut) so it was either odd shapes or have the bones sticking out of the corner of a rectangle. You pick your poison.

The big accomplishment for me was actually getting all the turn-ins done on time.

ique
06-14-2010, 10:41 AM
I would rank brisket the lowest. The slices look uneven and have bits of the bark on the slice. Also caught my attention that it seems that the left 1/2 has some moisture added and the right side of slices look dryer. Bet it tastes good but looks a bit sloppy to me. 7, maybe even a 6 if I was grumpy.

Chicken is a 9 to me. Sharp, neat, looks tasty.

Ribs, somewhat of an odd layout. Left center of the box gets a lot of my attention, nothing but parsley there. Ribs look tasty, I think the layout distracts though 7/8

Pork, 8. But I would be bummed if I was the judge that ended up with the bark piece at the 7 o'clock position. Borderline sculpting I think too.

Porky
06-14-2010, 10:51 AM
Chicken 9
Ribs 8
Pork 9
Brisket 8-top piece looks to fat but it could be the angle or my eyes!

Scottie
06-14-2010, 10:54 AM
:becky:How in Cliff's name would you know if the brisket was overdone by looking at it?


I thought it looked overdone as well. Just the texture of the meat and how it looks 'grainy' (if that is a word)...

I guess what someone said about the grill marks on the chicken about it being grilled and not smoked. I don't think I ever really realized that is what I thought deep down... :icon_blush: Although I love the slices and the knife work on those breasts... Impressive.

After looking at your scores, I would not be that disappointed. You had good scores. Probably a little higher than what the judges would score it in the midwest. I've had more 6's this year and I can guarantee you, I have never turned in a 6 in my life. I wouldn't be able to compete as many times as I do if I turn in anything below a 8... Now if I could only tell the judges that... :doh:

Ryan Chester
06-14-2010, 11:03 AM
Neil,
That chicken looks incredible and I applaud you for the ballsy move. If the pork had a bit more of a shine, you are right on the money! Yeah the rib placement is unusual but they look excellent. I'm not a fan of the brisket. The back slice looks really thick (might just be the picture angle) color doesn't do much for me and there are all kinds of bark chucks all over the faces. With that being said, I think you did an excellent job by yourself in your first comp of the year.

That event was unbelievable and can't wait to do it again next year.

KC_Bobby
06-14-2010, 11:05 AM
Just one comment:
I agree the rib box placement is not optimal - but would hardly call it haphazard. Let's remember, we're judging the appearance of the meat which is hardly below average. Although the placement of the ribs in the box leaves room for improvement, the ribs themselves look average at worst so I don't see how they could get less than a 6. They look meaty and well cooked but they don't make me feel like I need to reach in and get one while the box is shown for presentation - even with the untidy layout I'd still give them a 7 based on that pic.

Bigmista
06-14-2010, 11:25 AM
Chicken 9
Ribs 8
Pork 9
Brisket 8-top piece looks to fat but it could be the angle or my eyes!

It's the camera angle. That's actually 2 slices.

Divemaster
06-14-2010, 11:33 AM
I liked all of the boxes except for the ribs... Maybe it's just me but it sure looks like a big old 'N' and as such I would have been VERY worried about a marking DQ with a name like Neal....

barbefunkoramaque
06-14-2010, 11:39 AM
Some of you say the rib box looked rushed. It was. Actually everything was because I was doing it by myself. The person I was expecting to be there helping in the morning couldn't make it so I was unprepared and flying solo. And I just went for the best 7 bones I could find. Out of 5 racks, 2 were useless because they pulled back too far. The other had a bunch of crooked bones (st. louis cut) so it was either odd shapes or have the bones sticking out of the corner of a rectangle. You pick your poison.

The big accomplishment for me was actually getting all the turn-ins done on time.


This would not have happened if you were here with me in the Gulf Region so when you realize that Californians are the type that leave you hanging and decide its time to move here back to your home then Popdaddy and I will not leave you hangin'

Bigmista
06-14-2010, 11:54 AM
I liked all of the boxes except for the ribs... Maybe it's just me but it sure looks like a big old 'N' and as such I would have been VERY worried about a marking DQ with a name like Neal....

Wow Jeff. I never even considered that. I was in a rush and since I was pulling ribs from different racks I was just trying to make it presentable.

Bigmista
06-14-2010, 11:56 AM
This would not have happened if you were here with me in the Gulf Region so when you realize that Californians are the type that leave you hanging and decide its time to move here back to your home then Popdaddy and I will not leave you hangin'

I'll ask Mrs. Mista and see what she says.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-14-2010, 12:47 PM
chicken - 9
ribs - 7
pork - 7
brisket - 6

Bentley
06-14-2010, 01:45 PM
Please don't do this.

As a KCBS judge you are specifically directed not to tell cooks if you think you judged their box. Doing so sabotages the carefully protected double-blind system, and no good can come of it.


I missed that rule...where is it? And it sure is not much of a double-blind system if that can sabotage it and after the fact to boot.

Lets see, I have looked at the KCBS site under Rules and Regulations for 2010, CBJ Facts, Judges Oath...I don't see the specific or any mention of what you are refering to, so please educated me and show me where your getting your information from...Sure like to follow most rules.

CBQ
06-14-2010, 01:51 PM
Wow Jeff. I never even considered that. I was in a rush and since I was pulling ribs from different racks I was just trying to make it presentable.

I was once accused of marking for a random ugly pile of pork because one piece was sticking up more than the others. It doesn't take much. (The rep correctly determined it wasn't marked, but of course you can imagine the impression made on the other judges when one judge has to call the table captain and then the rep over.)

Divemaster
06-14-2010, 02:33 PM
I liked all of the boxes except for the ribs... Maybe it's just me but it sure looks like a big old 'N' and as such I would have been VERY worried about a marking DQ with a name like Neal....

Wow Jeff. I never even considered that. I was in a rush and since I was pulling ribs from different racks I was just trying to make it presentable.
Living as close to Northwestern and working there for 10 years, and having family going to school there.... You get used to seeing the 'N'... In fact, that's the first thing I thought of... LOL

Bentley
06-14-2010, 03:35 PM
Any update on that KCBS rule?

Scottie
06-14-2010, 04:40 PM
Hey Bent. I am not sure if there is a specific rule and honestly, I am not going to look it up. But I think it should be in the best interest of the double blind system that judges don't talk to cooks about a specific entry. what happens under the tent, should stay under the tent. Otherwise, favoritism might come into play and I guarantee you the contest, et al.. do not want that happening. As I cook, I do not want that happening.

FWIW I have had judges come up and describe my exact box and flavors, et al. I pretended it wasn't my box, so thety didn't know what I cook and how... I think that is only fair to all of the other cooks. I do not want anyone to say I had an advantage. If I am going to beat someone, I want to beat them straight up. It makes the Smack Talk that much better. :clap:

Bentley
06-14-2010, 05:10 PM
I appreciate what you are saying. Don’t agree with it.

I don’t like someone telling me not to do something, stating there is a specific rule and then not be able to show me where the rule is. Don’t have a lot of respect for unwritten rules, kind of like the Good Ole Boy Network…Makes it to ambiguous…Maybe there still is a rule, if so I will stand corrected, Man up and admit I was wrong and I won’t do it in the future.

Guess it’s to much to expect the same from others….

Jorge
06-14-2010, 05:58 PM
I appreciate what you are saying. Don’t agree with it.

I don’t like someone telling me not to do something, stating there is a specific rule and then not be able to show me where the rule is. Don’t have a lot of respect for unwritten rules, kind of like the Good Ole Boy Network…Makes it to ambiguous…Maybe there still is a rule, if so I will stand corrected, Man up and admit I was wrong and I won’t do it in the future.

Guess it’s to much to expect the same from others….

No offense, but couldn't the Good Ole Boy Network also be judges learning to recognize a teams signature presentation and scoring up or down based on the relationship?

In my opinion, the system is double blind for a reason and more important for those that compete and/or judge on a regular basis.

Give it some thought.

Bentley
06-14-2010, 06:22 PM
No offense, but couldn't the Good Ole Boy Network also be judges learning to recognize a teams signature presentation and scoring up or down based on the relationship?

In my opinion, the system is double blind for a reason and more important for those that compete and/or judge on a regular basis.

Give it some thought.


You dont think that happens now?

I dont think the KCBS is a double blind system, I think it is a blind system, but I maybe wrong on that.

barbefunkoramaque
06-14-2010, 06:37 PM
So what would happen if I was judging again and I am somewhere up North Like Georgia or Alabama and I am sitting at one of those judginn tables and I take a bite recognize who it is and GO ---

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM God Dammit I love that Peach flavor Myron puts on his beat, taste this here Chicken. No really come on - NOW take Lilly's Chicken outta your mouf and taste MYRONS.

Whooooo nHOOOOOOOO damn! Now Then - aint nothing like Jacks Old south I can spot it a MILEW away... HUH? Oh. My Bad.


Now that I think if it--- does lilly use his white sauce anymore at tourneys if he goes??? I mean that there alone can mark his chicken. Right?

CajunSmoker
06-14-2010, 07:54 PM
So what would happen if I was judging again and I am somewhere up North Like Georgia or Alabama and I am sitting at one of those judginn tables and I take a bite recognize who it is and GO ---

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM God Dammit I love that Peach flavor Myron puts on his beat, taste this here Chicken. No really come on - NOW take Lilly's Chicken outta your mouf and taste MYRONS.

Whooooo nHOOOOOOOO damn! Now Then - aint nothing like Jacks Old south I can spot it a MILEW away... HUH? Oh. My Bad.


Now that I think if it--- does lilly use his white sauce anymore at tourneys if he goes??? I mean that there alone can mark his chicken. Right?

If your settin at any table I've ever been at and make a comment during judging you would be nicely asked to not talk. Do it again and you would probably be replaced. Talking during judging is a definite no no.

MattCom
06-14-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm not a judge, so I won't bother to score.
The chicken looked killer and the knife work... wow and a solo cook at that. damn man. great job.

NateOwsley
06-14-2010, 09:50 PM
Chicken - 6 grill marks look contrived
Ribs - 5 haphazard placement appear to be just put in the box
pork - 6 average just chunks not pull and/or sliced placement could almost be considered marking
brisket - 5 resembles pot roast and really thick slices probably overdone

that is what I would have scored and am a cbj and cook both and would have filled out a comment card with these statements

wow, glad I'm not doing contests in this guys area.

CivilWarBBQ
06-14-2010, 11:18 PM
You dont think that happens now?

I dont think the KCBS is a double blind system, I think it is a blind system, but I maybe wrong on that.

KCBS is certainly a double blind system. The cooks do not know who is judging their entry (blind 1). The judges don't know who prepared the entry they are scoring (blind 2). To prevent the blinds from being defeated, boxes are renumbered at the turn-in table so that judges and cooks cannot compare numbers.

As to your earlier question, the admonition against identifying boxes is not in the published rules and regulations. ( I never said it was, I said you were directed not to as a CBJ) However this subject is covered in every CBJ class I've attended, and often during the judges meeting at a contest as well. Rep Advisory 4.44 states:

4.44 Blind Judging
Question: Once the judging is over, can we reveal the names of the cooks to the judges?
Opinion: No! Under no circumstances should the names, or the team numbers of the cooks, be revealed to the judges, contest organizers (until check writing time), or volunteers. The only person besides the KCBS Rep who should have access to this information is the person entering the results into the computer. And, they are not authorized to share this information with anyone.
February 17, 2006

This concept runs to the core of the KCBS scoring and judging system. If you were not aware of it, perhaps you might consider a refresher CBJ course. You can attend a second class at no charge as a CBJ in good standing.

I apologize for sounding preachy, but I'll admit I was rather dismayed to see a direct attempt to defeat the blinds in a public Internet forum. There is enough controversy over scores as it is - imagine how bad it would be if cooks could hunt down judges who gave them low scores or if judges could award top scores to their favorite teams! I've seen this happen at non-sanctioned events, and the resulting fallout isn't pretty.

Boshizzle
06-15-2010, 06:39 AM
I would have pretty much given you an 8 on everything. Here is why - All of it looks well cooked with lots of care. However, the marks on the chicken, while a nice idea, are a bit too dark. The ribs are close to a 9. If the ribs were more uniformly shaped or at least arranged in a way that they look uniformly shaped, you would get a 9 out of me. The ribs look juicy, not over sauced, and have a nice color. The pork looks like there is some kind of "gunk" on it. Maybe it's the photo. The center piece looks like someone took a bite out of it already. I'd suggest each piece show a little bark and a little meat. Otherwise, I like the presentation. The brisket looks really good and I just may have given you a 9. The only suggestion I would give is to remove the black rub pieces that are all over the face of the meat as it takes away from the presentation. Overall, nice job!

ThomEmery
06-15-2010, 07:15 AM
Double Blind would mean the Reps do not know whose
que is in that box
In other Judging systems that rely on numbered tickets to
identify the winners a double blind exists but no read out :(

Blind would describe the fine system that KCBS uses

correct?

Bentley
06-15-2010, 09:42 AM
Like I said, there is no rule. I have not been instructed not to, so maybe you better work on your buddies at KCBS and not worry about my continuing education. I also belive the point you are referencing pertains to KCBS Reps, not judges.

And your reference even points out blind judging, not double blind.

May I suggest you consider some CE for the future.

SmokinOkie
06-15-2010, 09:54 AM
Like I said, there is no rule. I have not been instructed not to, so maybe you better work on your buddies at KCBS and not worry about my continuing education. I also belive the point you are referencing pertains to KCBS Reps, not judges.

And your reference even points out blind judging, not double blind.

May I suggest you consider some CE for the future.

Wow, then let's argue intent and what you should or shouldn't do.

Double blind. If KCBS picks random numbers for the boxes as given to the teams and then changes that number before the box reaches the table, I think that's defined as double blind.

Have you ever judged, that system is pretty much known to all the judges out there.

Ask KCBS for a ruling if you think it's okay for you to talk about what teams you've judged.

I have heard reps at events take that ruling above and tell judges to not try to figure out there teams. I've personally heard reps tell judges, when they mention "I know that was such and such a team" that they could be removed.

Go to KCBS and ask for a ruling.

Keep in mind there is the perspective of a team. I've been on the other end of this, when a judge said, hey did you chicken box look like X and since I thought it was you and you could do better I didn't score it real high. It looked like the judge had a grudge against me since his score was more than 2 points different from everyone else. He was the low judge on that entry.

You should have heard my discussion with the rep after THAT comment.

Bentley
06-15-2010, 10:32 AM
You take it up with KCBS, it's not my job to interperate rules that arent there...

big brother smoke
06-15-2010, 11:01 AM
Bent, I got to say I disagree with you. Just because something is not spelled out in black and white does not mean it is ok to do what you will. The key word here is "integrity."

Going against the grain in judging, devalues the whole comp experience for all involved.

ModelMaker
06-15-2010, 11:16 AM
No offense, but couldn't the Good Ole Boy Network also be judges learning to recognize a teams signature presentation and scoring up or down based on the relationship?

In my opinion, the system is double blind for a reason and more important for those that compete and/or judge on a regular basis.

Give it some thought.

I have met alot of nice folks on my judging journey over the last four years, and some of them I'd call good freinds. I go and visit on Fridays when I can, and chew the fat with many teams on any given Friday.
I can say this without a doubt, if I saw an entry at my table and knew for absolute no doubt (very unlikley) it was one of my cook team freinds entry it would get judged without partiality and scored to the best of my ability.
Period.
I'm positive any team I know wouldn't have it any other way.
Period.
If I knew of a judge doing it any other way I would'nt hesitate contacting the rep.
Period.
Ed

Bentley
06-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Bent, I got to say I disagree with you. Just because something is not spelled out in black and white does not mean it is ok to do what you will. The key word here is "integrity."

Going against the grain in judging, devalues the whole comp experience for all involved.

You know that I value your opinion.

I disagree with your assessment; I am supposed to know that I am not to do this. More clairvoyant people on this forum than me...I see this turning into a pissing match and I cant piss as far since I stopped drink beer, and it takes away from the original thread so I will just keep my remaining thoughts on this to myself.

big brother smoke
06-15-2010, 11:27 AM
You know that I value your opinion.

I disagree with your assessment; I am supposed to know that I am not to do this. More clairvoyant people on this forum than me...I see this turning into a pissing match and I cant piss as far since I stopped drink beer, and it takes away from the original thread so I will just keep my remaining thoughts to this to myself.



I really just spit coffee on the monitor :laugh:

Big Poppa
06-15-2010, 01:10 PM
I love watching this.

Bigmista
06-15-2010, 05:39 PM
All this, huh? See if I show my boxes again.

ThomEmery
06-15-2010, 06:00 PM
LOL Neil

CivilWarBBQ
06-15-2010, 07:48 PM
I thought your boxes looked fine Neil - your chix was awesome!

Bentley, It sounds like you should let your KCBS membership expire. Since the organization is obviously chafing you, why not spare yourself the aggravation? No point in being involved in something that makes you unhappy. (At least that's what my ex-wife told me!)

Bentley
06-16-2010, 01:16 AM
I thought your boxes looked fine Neil - your chix was awesome!

Bentley, It sounds like you should let your KCBS membership expire. Since the organization is obviously chafing you, why not spare yourself the aggravation? No point in being involved in something that makes you unhappy. (At least that's what my ex-wife told me!)

Thanks, as soon as I become a Master CBJ I will...

Till then I am told I cant bitch and moan at them in less I am a member, so its worth the $35 a year for that...

barbefunkoramaque
06-16-2010, 07:46 AM
If your settin at any table I've ever been at and make a comment during judging you would be nicely asked to not talk. Do it again and you would probably be replaced. Talking during judging is a definite no no.

Duh! But it still would be hilarious. I'd like to get that on film. I can just see Will Ferrle doing it in the Popdaddy - Barbefunkoramaque Movie

But none the less, thanks for the serious consideration. This was always a joke of mine back in the 1990s when I judged. I mean a joek I would tell during the walks.

Big Poppa
06-16-2010, 09:04 AM
Hey Neil We can discuss this at length in the Mobile ManCave......Thanks for being a pioneer I was going to post our turn in photos but Im just too sensitive! hehahaa
Bbq and related forums have double standards and hidden rules?...most forums do...there are always different rules for different members. This place is as close to pure as it gets.

Bigmista
06-16-2010, 09:30 AM
Hey Neil We can discuss this at length in the Mobile ManCave......Thanks for being a pioneer I was going to post our turn in photos but Im just too sensitive! hehahaa
Bbq and related forums have double standards and hidden rules?...most forums do...there are always different rules for different members. This place is as close to pure as it gets.

You will definitely get some honest opinions with some jokes thrown in but I've met you and I know you can take it.

bbqbull
06-16-2010, 10:17 AM
Please stop the name calling and lets get things back on the subject please!
Thanks in advance.

Bentley
06-16-2010, 10:19 AM
Hey Neil We can discuss this at length in the Mobile ManCave......Thanks for being a pioneer I was going to post our turn in photos but Im just too sensitive! hehahaa
Bbq and related forums have double standards and hidden rules?...most forums do...there are always different rules for different members. This place is as close to pure as it gets.


Really, which forums would that be...Since we can say almost anything on this one, pray tell...

SmokinOkie
06-16-2010, 10:37 AM
All this, huh? See if I show my boxes again.

Good point, let's get back on the topic you started.

I say THANKS for posting. As someone who's done a lot of Chicken Breast turn-ins, I know how hard that is, I'm usually a one man team.

Don't let the other off-topic get to you, thanks for posting and as a CBJ, I'd give those 8's and 9's for appearance. Brisket probably the lowest, maybe even a 7 (hard to judge like you do in a contest without starting at it).

I love the originality. As a judge, when you see boxes all looking the same, something unique MAY standout if presented well. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

You presented your boxes very well.

Now, how did you get the grill marks?

Russ

Jorge
06-16-2010, 12:28 PM
Really, which forums would that be...Since we can say almost anything on this one, pray tell...

And that would be one of the things that isn't going to fly around here. Other forums can be run as their owner, and management see fit. Period. End of discussion. If anyone chooses to take issue with the way another forum is run, that issue should remain on that forum.

Bentley
06-16-2010, 12:49 PM
Ahh, you highlighted my point perfectly, thank you.

Bigmista
06-16-2010, 01:05 PM
Good point, let's get back on the topic you started.

I say THANKS for posting. As someone who's done a lot of Chicken Breast turn-ins, I know how hard that is, I'm usually a one man team.

Don't let the other off-topic get to you, thanks for posting and as a CBJ, I'd give those 8's and 9's for appearance. Brisket probably the lowest, maybe even a 7 (hard to judge like you do in a contest without starting at it).

I love the originality. As a judge, when you see boxes all looking the same, something unique MAY standout if presented well. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

You presented your boxes very well.

Now, how did you get the grill marks?

Russ

Trick I learned from MoKan Meathead. See if he will tell you...

smokaholic
06-16-2010, 02:24 PM
Stick your grill grates in firebox for a few minutes, take it out and press on chicken till it sears it??? am I close?

Bentley
06-16-2010, 02:52 PM
That was some of the most unique looking chicken I have ever seen, it was Bon Appite magazine quality.

ThomEmery
06-16-2010, 03:31 PM
Stick your grill grates in firebox for a few minutes, take it out and press on chicken till it sears it??? am I close?

Those Grill Grates are incredible in that department

Bigmista
06-16-2010, 04:12 PM
Stick your grill grates in firebox for a few minutes, take it out and press on chicken till it sears it??? am I close?

Not the way I do it but hot grates are essential.