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jbiesinger
06-02-2010, 09:43 AM
I was wondering if anyone has questioned the rule regarding deep frying.

rule 8: parboiling and/or deep frying of competition meat is not allowed.

I would have to assume there is a specific kcbs definition for "deep frying" because it seems legal to cook chicken completely submerged in fat, such as parkay, which to me seems the same.

does anybody know if this rule has been discussed and explained?

bigabyte
06-02-2010, 09:46 AM
:pop2:

Lake Dogs
06-02-2010, 09:51 AM
with shallow frying you must turn the meat over to get it done on all sides, dont you?
completely different!

:becky:

BoneDaddy's
06-02-2010, 10:53 AM
Seems pretty cut and dry to me...don't try to read between the lines!

Ford
06-02-2010, 11:01 AM
I was wondering if anyone has questioned the rule regarding deep frying.

rule 8: parboiling and/or deep frying of competition meat is not allowed.

I would have to assume there is a specific kcbs definition for "deep frying" because it seems legal to cook chicken completely submerged in fat, such as parkay, which to me seems the same.

does anybody know if this rule has been discussed and explained?
Deep frying - oil heated to high temps prior to adding meat and meat totally submerged.

Perfectly legal butter cooking method - not submerged. Butter starts cold not heated.

Nice try but there's clearly a big difference. Have you taken a class so that you understand what the butter method is or are you making assumptions?

Balls Casten
06-02-2010, 11:08 AM
Ditto :pop2:

jbiesinger
06-02-2010, 11:16 AM
Deep frying - oil heated to high temps prior to adding meat and meat totally submerged.

Perfectly legal butter cooking method - not submerged. Butter starts cold not heated.

Nice try but there's clearly a big difference. Have you taken a class so that you understand what the butter method is or are you making assumptions?

no, never took a class. I guess I understand the butter method but I don't understand the rules.

I have no intent on deep frying anything, I had an idea that I wanted to try. I checked the rules and my first thought was that my idea could be construed as frying. But then I got to thinking that the butter method is accepted, so cooking in fat was ok. I had to assume it must be more of an oil temp issue, than the oil itself. And I hadn't really thought about the amount of fat and whether the meat is submerged or not.

I always interpreted the butter method as a take on confit. Am I incorrect?

bigabyte
06-02-2010, 11:22 AM
What about a high-heat cupcake chicken method? Just as legal as high-heat brisket? Or are we getting into frying there?
:pop2:

BigButzBBQ
06-02-2010, 11:47 AM
What about a high-heat cupcake chicken method? Just as legal as high-heat brisket? Or are we getting into frying there?
:pop2:

I think the main difference is the temp at which the food enters the fat, if both are brought up to heat together it is more of a confit style cook than a deep fry. So no matter what temp you end with, in truth as long as both start off together at the same time at room temp or below I don't think it would be considered truly deep frying.

Lake Dogs
06-02-2010, 12:16 PM
can we use lard (ala. butter), or any other oil/grease? I mean, seriously. I'm fairly certain that once I take the
pork and beef off the fire, I could probably get this old stick burner up pretty hot and plunk in some chicken covered
in oil and bring that up to a boil (ala. frying) fairly quick. If it's legal, I'll give that a try shortly, on some nice hot
burning oak. I need to work up some crispy skin anyway... Perhaps this is how to do it. Heck, might even pre-heat
the pot, dutch oven style... That way it'll come up fast.

roksmith
06-02-2010, 01:00 PM
..not sure what you are trying to accomplish by dropping chicken into cold oil. If it's greasy chicken, you'll likely achieve it.
I always just thought, since it was a BBQ competition, I'd.. um BBQ it..
..but that's just me I guess.

Lake Dogs
06-02-2010, 01:49 PM
Apparently judges prefer a bite through or slightly crispy skin. I could bring the temps
up fast and basically fricassee the chicken, then take the chicken off the heat and
set the skin up for about an hour as the temps come down on the stick burner. I'm
pretty certain I can get the back side up to 400+- with the front being only 320, then
immediately let the temps drop back down to 250 and *voila* crispy skin on BBQ
chicken.

The question is, IF I start with oil/lard at the same temps as the chicken, this is legal?

15 minutes or so on a quick bring-temps-up-to-frying-range, then about an hour
back at normal temps should do it. Season on the "flip".

roksmith
06-02-2010, 02:06 PM
Don't see any reason why it wouldn't be legal. I have a feeling the oil won't come up to temp nearly as fast as you're thinking it will' but I suppose you could give it a shot. No difference "legally" between that and the butter bath some folks use.

Slamdunkpro
06-02-2010, 02:40 PM
I always interpreted the butter method as a take on confit. Am I incorrect?
To me it's more of a poach method. Let's face it - there isn't a lot of true dry heat BBQing going on in competition (at least around here) A lot of competitors poach their chicken in fat and braise their ribs, butts and briskets (sometimes even poach briskets). It's become more of an outdoor cooking event than a "true" BBQ event.

roksmith
06-02-2010, 03:02 PM
not saying there's anything wrong with creative BBQing.. I've been known to utulize the ole Texas Crutch myself.. but as I understand it, the reason most use the butter bath is to get some of the buttery flavor in their chicken.. it doesn't crisp it up from what 've seen. I believe you would achieve the same result with oil unless you throw it in something hot enough to melt steel.. you'll end up with chicken that tastes like grease.

Just a guess...

..and with my stick burner.. I'd be afraid to heat it up as high as you'd need to with oil inside... one grease fire in the smoker was enough to tell me I don't want to super heat it with a pot of boiling oil inside it.

deguerre
06-02-2010, 03:09 PM
not saying there's anything wrong with creative BBQing.. I've been known to utulize the ole Texas Crutch myself.. but as I understand it, the reason most use the butter bath is to get some of the buttery flavor in their chicken.. it doesn't crisp it up from what 've seen. I believe you would achieve the same result with oil unless you throw it in something hot enough to melt steel.. you'll end up with chicken that tastes like grease.

Just a guess...

..and with my stick burner.. I'd be afraid to heat it up as high as you'd need to with oil inside... one grease fire in the smoker was enough to tell me I don't want to super heat it with a pot of boiling oil inside it.

What if you used...pure BACON grease?

roksmith
06-02-2010, 03:21 PM
interesting thought... I've been known to lay a big slab of bacon over top of a lean brisket in a pinch.
The bacon grease would even add a little smokey flavor if the grease flavor soaks in.

How about wrapping the chicken in some little bacon blankets before cooking.... works for everything else :)

bigabyte
06-02-2010, 03:25 PM
What if you used...pure BACON grease?
You are a genius. Cupcake chicken will never be the same.

tonto1117
06-02-2010, 03:31 PM
What if you used...pure BACON grease?

You are a genius. Cupcake chicken will never be the same.


CHoink.....it's the new rage.....:-P

Ford
06-02-2010, 03:50 PM
Comments in red.
Apparently judges prefer a bite through or slightly crispy skin. I could bring the temps up fast and basically fricassee the chicken, then take the chicken off the heat and set the skin up for about an hour as the temps come down on the stick burner. I'm pretty certain I can get the back side up to 400+- with the front being only 320, then immediately let the temps drop back down to 250 and *voila* crispy skin on BBQ chicken.

Problem - When you put both in cold then they both rise at the same temp so in order to get the liquid up to 350F for frying you'd need to bring the chicken up to 350F. Preheating the liquid means that the liquid may drop when the meat is added and then both will increase at about the same rate. So to get from 320 to 350 only gets the meat from 40 to 70. So then the oil will cook the chicken.

The question is, IF I start with oil/lard at the same temps as the chicken, this is legal?
YES

15 minutes or so on a quick bring-temps-up-to-frying-range, then about an hour
back at normal temps should do it. Season on the "flip".
Even without meat in a pan it will take a lot longer than 15 minutes to get up to temp. Tried to heat stuff in a smoker. At 300F temp I can put in a quart of sauce and leave for an hour and it still isn't boiling. Deep fryer is putting out way more than 300F to get the oil up to temp.

Now if you took a cast iron pan and put it in the firebox for 15 minutes then pulled out and added a cup max of oil and it didn't immediately burn you could add cooked chicken and put in the smoker at any temp and crisp the skin. Or for that matter just leave the pan out. I'll bet it would be nice and crisp and it's sure not deep frying. And no I haven't done it but I know people have done it and don't do it anymore.

Anybody else put liquids in a hot smoker and did they boil?

Ford
06-02-2010, 03:51 PM
How about wrapping the chicken in some little bacon blankets before cooking.... works for everything else :)
Why do I think judges would score the chicken down in flavor? Just like turning in lemon chicken.

CivilWarBBQ
06-02-2010, 04:40 PM
The "deep" is the key word in the deep frying rule. As long as you don't submerge meat in fat, it's legal, regardless of temps.

Brew-B-Q
06-02-2010, 07:43 PM
The "deep" is the key word in the deep frying rule. As long as you don't submerge meat in fat, it's legal, regardless of temps.

So one could pan fry smoked, not fully cooked, chicken in hot oil as long as it isn't fully submerged? I'm not familiar with the rule, as I never considered frying my chicken, but this is an interesting thread.

Ford
06-02-2010, 08:14 PM
So one could pan fry smoked, not fully cooked, chicken in hot oil as long as it isn't fully submerged? I'm not familiar with the rule, as I never considered frying my chicken, but this is an interesting thread.
Based on the current rule I think you could. However on Friday I'd explain to the Reps exactly what you plan to do and get them to say go ahead just in case they come to you Saturday and say DQ. In this case it's better to ask permission.

Now as to my personal thought if I was judging - There's no way this is BBQ and it's being questioned at the table and my score would be 5 or less after I was told it's legal by the Rep.

History lesson - the par boiling them deep frying rule came about because a competitor fired up a big fire under a big pot full of sauce then when boiling added meat to simmer in the sauce. Bottom line don't mess with Juggy the Beerman for those that know him. The parboiling rule took him 3 years but he got it. And he sells beer at Royals/Arrowhead stadium hence the name.

Scottie
06-03-2010, 09:07 AM
So one could pan fry smoked, not fully cooked, chicken in hot oil as long as it isn't fully submerged? I'm not familiar with the rule, as I never considered frying my chicken, but this is an interesting thread.


Yeah, I think you should do it. Especially every contest that I am at...

Just sayin'...

Slamdunkpro
06-03-2010, 09:30 AM
Now as to my personal thought if I was judging - There's no way this is BBQ and it's being questioned at the table and my score would be 5 or less after I was told it's legal by the Rep.
{pot stir mode}
Wait, what happened to judging the entry as a representation of the cook's intention? It's either not BBQ - then the rep should DQ it; - or it is - then judge it as a representation of the cook's intentions regardless of your personal feelings
{/pot stir mode}
:becky:

CajunSmoker
06-03-2010, 11:08 AM
It's gonna be a thin line and will depend on who's the rep.

One of the New England teams floured there chicken a couple years back and then cooked it hot to crisp it. Got DQ'd even though they didn't fry it, it gave the impression of fried chicken and that was enough for the DQ.

Slamdunkpro
06-03-2010, 11:36 AM
It's gonna be a thin line and will depend on who's the rep.

One of the New England teams floured there chicken a couple years back and then cooked it hot to crisp it. Got DQ'd even though they didn't fry it, it gave the impression of fried chicken and that was enough for the DQ.
I remember this. What struck me about that incident was that the rep didn't bother to go ask the competitor, they just assumed it was fried and DQ'd it at the judge's table.

Brew-B-Q
06-03-2010, 11:57 AM
I'm pretty happy with my chicken recipe, and I don't plan on frying it in the future. I was just wondering if that would be legal, given the discussion. Maybe I'll fry my brisket slices and see what that gets me. :crazy:

Ford
06-03-2010, 12:51 PM
I remember this. What struck me about that incident was that the rep didn't bother to go ask the competitor, they just assumed it was fried and DQ'd it at the judge's table.
Lesson learned from this - if you plan to try anything out of the norm let the reps know on Friday so they have advance notice of what you are doing. I'd even provide pics of their practice for the reps to see.

ique
06-03-2010, 02:31 PM
I remember this. What struck me about that incident was that the rep didn't bother to go ask the competitor, they just assumed it was fried and DQ'd it at the judge's table.

This was the last year of the infamous Grill Kings event I believe. It was an unfortunate DQ but should the rep really stop everything, go out to the tent and ask the team if they fried and then make the call on DQ? Push the boundaries of legality and you will get burned eventually. Its happened to me multiple times in NEBS grilling contests.

roksmith
06-03-2010, 02:45 PM
Yea.. I think they should. It's part of their job.
To decide that the manner in which something was cooked without seeing it, or at least asking the cooks about it is completely wrong.

Slamdunkpro
06-03-2010, 02:46 PM
This was the last year of the infamous Grill Kings event I believe. It was an unfortunate DQ but should the rep really stop everything, go out to the tent and ask the team if they fried and then make the call on DQ?
Yes, absolutely. If the rep or a contest official didn't see it being fried, poached, parted and put back in the cooker or whatever, no sculpting, no sauce pooling, there are no foreign objects or illegal garnish in the box, and it's the correct type and cut of meat how can they arbitrarily decide how the meat was prepared and DQ the box? So many cooks are now doing all their prep and cooking behind tent walls or enclosed trailers that unless the contest officials / reps actually walk around and spot check cookers (what a concept), they have no idea how any of the turn ins are prepared. Cooks operate on an honor system and it works pretty well. The rep in this case made an incorrect assumption and punished an honest cook for it.

Fearless prediction: There will be a huge blow up at a big money event this year over how a competitor cooked their meat.

CivilWarBBQ
06-03-2010, 04:37 PM
So one could pan fry smoked, not fully cooked, chicken in hot oil as long as it isn't fully submerged? I'm not familiar with the rule, as I never considered frying my chicken, but this is an interesting thread.

I believe there was a ruling against breading a while back, but there are so many cooks doing the butter bath thing currently it would be a huge flap to attempt to stop the practice now. But I suppose the answer to your hypothetical question is yes.

Diva Q
06-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Lesson learned from this - if you plan to try anything out of the norm let the reps know on Friday so they have advance notice of what you are doing. I'd even provide pics of their practice for the reps to see.
Absolutely great advice. Bring the rep over to your site if need be and show them what you are doing. Saves getting the DQ at the end if assumptions are made.

DawgPhan
06-03-2010, 05:15 PM
Yea.. I think they should. It's part of their job.
To decide that the manner in which something was cooked without seeing it, or at least asking the cooks about it is completely wrong.


No their job is to make the call. You want to push the envelope go ahead, but know you might get your hand slapped...

The cook should have cleared the method with the rep prior to the contest.

Rich Parker
06-03-2010, 05:57 PM
It's gonna be a thin line and will depend on who's the rep.

One of the New England teams floured there chicken a couple years back and then cooked it hot to crisp it. Got DQ'd even though they didn't fry it, it gave the impression of fried chicken and that was enough for the DQ.

I think this is the thread that showed the floured chicken.

Two Fat Polocks BBQ
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19279&highlight=fried+chicken

CajunSmoker
06-03-2010, 07:24 PM
I think this is the thread that showed the floured chicken.

Two Fat Polocks BBQ
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19279&highlight=fried+chicken


That's the one. I couldn't remember if it was the Anchormen or the Polocks:crazy:

AZScott
06-03-2010, 10:26 PM
If you have any questions about a cooking method could you call KCBS to get a ruling in writing before the contest?

Tweedle
06-03-2010, 10:57 PM
I just finished this thread and then poof here it is again lolk
This talks about the butter method
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36579

jbiesinger
06-04-2010, 06:05 AM
I just finished this thread and then poof here it is again lolk
This talks about the butter method
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36579

its funny how, just when you think you understand something....

Thanks for everyone's input!

For semi-full disclosure, my original question had nothing to do with frying to get crispy skin. I was actually looking to fry to achieve bite through skin.

I started thinking along these lines after receiving a box of wings from a local joint that fries the stink out of them. By the time I opened the box and ate one, they were far from crisp but the skin had turned to what amounted to wet tissue paper.

ique
06-04-2010, 08:29 AM
Yes, absolutely. If the rep or a contest official didn't see it being fried, poached, parted and put back in the cooker or whatever, no sculpting, no sauce pooling, there are no foreign objects or illegal garnish in the box, and it's the correct type and cut of meat how can they arbitrarily decide how the meat was prepared and DQ the box?

If I am on the same table as that box my entry will sit there getting cold as the reps walk around the contest to find the cook and ask them if they fried it. No thanks.

And if a rep walks into a competitors tent at 12:10 and asks,.... did you fry this?... answer: uhh... no? I'm not saying anyone is a liar but does the cooks response really matter? Same deal with sculpting... did you mean to put 6 volcano shaped mounds of pulled pork in your box? Its the reps call and they need to make it on the spot. There is no time for a hearing on the legality of a box at a contest. If you dont want to get DQ'd, just cook BBQ.

Slamdunkpro
06-04-2010, 10:41 PM
If I am on the same table as that box my entry will sit there getting cold as the reps walk around the contest to find the cook and ask them if they fried it. No thanks.
That shouldn't happen. The table should proceed as normal while the rep pulls the box number and checks it out. If it's a procedural violation then they should come back and instruct the table to cross out the score for that entry and write in "1"'s . Other entries should not be impacted. At least this is what I was taught in judging class.

And if a rep walks into a competitors tent at 12:10 and asks,.... did you fry this?... answer: uhh... no? I'm not saying anyone is a liar but does the cooks response really matter? Same deal with sculpting... did you mean to put 6 volcano shaped mounds of pulled pork in your box? Its the reps call and they need to make it on the spot. There is no time for a hearing on the legality of a box at a contest. If you dont want to get DQ'd, just cook BBQ.
Big difference - You can see sculpting. Trying to determine how something was cooked by looking at the end product is iffy at best. People are always talking about how the judges need to take the time, effort and money that cooks put into an event into consideration, shouldn't they be afforded the same consideration if there is a question about preparation?

If you get right down to it, cooking method DQ's should be caught and doled out on-site. If an entry makes it to the judge's table unchallenged, then nobody is really in a position to determine how it was cooked with any accuracy.