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B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 08:11 AM
There was some discussion of this in a thread about pre-trimming. I thought it might get better discussion in a thread of its own on the basis of pre-injection.



From the KCBS Meat Inspections Guide

1. No pre­seasoned meat is allowed other than manufacturer-enhanced or injected products as stated on the label excluding but not limited to: teriyaki, lemon pepper or butter injected. All meats must be raw when inspected.

2. The meats do not have to be in the original packaging and may be trimmed prior to meat inspection, but no meat may be seasoned, injected or cooked prior to the inspect ion.


These two guidelines are contradictory to each other. Some "manufacturers" inject their meats with non flavor injections for tenderness(phosphates). Farmland Foods extra tender ribs states this:
"Deep BastedTM by addition of up to 7% of a solution of water, sodium phosphates"

Guideline 2 would say this is allowed. Guideline 3 says in bold "BUT NO MEAT MAY BE SEASONED, INJECTED OR COOKED prior to the inspection."

So which one is it? If you show up with some of these ribs that have holes in them can you use them?
Does using a manufacturer pre-injected product give a competitor an unfair advantage? Does the injection perform better over a longer period of time?

Those two guidelines are clearly contradictory. Anyone??

Ron_L
05-26-2010, 08:16 AM
I think you may have missed this part of the first rule that you quoted...

"No pre­seasoned meat is allowed other than manufacturer-enhanced or injected products as stated on the label"

ique
05-26-2010, 08:22 AM
There was some discussion of this in a thread about pre-trimming. I thought it might get better discussion in a thread of its own on the basis of pre-injection.

Guideline 3 says in bold "BUT NO MEAT MAY BE SEASONED, INJECTED OR COOKED prior to the inspection.

Guideline 3 probably should also say (other than manufacturer-enhanced or injected products).

While those pumped farmland ribs are indeed legal, I wouldnt use them!

BBQ Grail
05-26-2010, 08:33 AM
There are much better things to pick on the KCBS Board of Directors about than this...

ique
05-26-2010, 08:35 AM
There are much better things to pick on the KCBS Board of Directors about than this...

I'm missing the part where there was any picking on the KCBS BOD

Scottie
05-26-2010, 08:38 AM
There are much better things to pick on the KCBS Board of Directors about than this...


Exactly

BBQ Grail
05-26-2010, 08:39 AM
I'm missing the part where there was any picking on the KCBS BOD

You're over thinking the quote. Or I didn't explain myself properly. I only meant if someone were to bring it up as a contradiction before the board.

It's early here in California and I have not had my my donut yet...

BBQ Grail
05-26-2010, 08:40 AM
Exactly


Scottie got it!

B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 09:56 AM
No intention of picking on the BOD for any of this especially in light of all the crapola that has been going on lately.
I fully read the part that said "as stated on the label".
Why should a manufacturer injection be allowed but not a competitor injection?
I believe the first guideline in spirit is speaking about seasoning. It uses the words "excluded but not limited to" which would give any inspector wiggle room for judgement.
Guideline 3 says "no meat may be seasoned, INJECTED or cooked prior to inspection".
So what's the difference?

Alexa RnQ
05-26-2010, 10:09 AM
Why should a manufacturer injection be allowed but not a competitor injection?
When big manufacturers began processing entire market segments this way, some cooks who rely on grocery-store meat would have been hard-pressed to find un-"enhanced" meat. Since the manufacturer's pump doesn't change flavor significantly or give any advantage in texture and would be awfully hard to prove or disprove once out of the package, manufacturer's solutions (other than flavors such as teriyaki etc.) are deemed a non-factor.

A competitor's injection is allowed after the playing field has been theoretically leveled -- i.e., after inspection at the contest in a time frame reasonably shared by all cooks in attendance.

CivilWarBBQ
05-26-2010, 10:14 AM
The reason for the leniency is that in some areas it is difficult or even impossible to find meat that has not been "enhanced" by the packer. Chicken is a good example - there are only a very few processors that air cool their poultry. Most use a chilled water bath, and many add salts to that water. The purpose is the chicken will absorb some of this liquid, which makes for more profit for the seller as water is cheaper than meat. (Some will argue the process improves the juiciness of the chicken, hence the "enhanced" label, but make no mistake, the primary motive is profit.)

Those of us who serve as meat inspectors clearly understand the difference between "solution" and "flavoring". If you bought Walmart ribs that include 10% salt water, that's acceptable, but if you bring a pack with Dale's added at the factory you're going to be sent to the store to buy some legal ribs.

B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 10:34 AM
Not sure how to do the blue box quote thing but this is from Diva

"Since the manufacturer's pump doesn't change flavor significantly or give any advantage in texture and would be awfully hard to prove or disprove once out of the package, manufacturer's solutions (other than flavors such as teriyaki etc.) are deemed a non-factor."

I would think that a sodium phosphate solution injection would have considerable effect on the meat regarding texture. If it didn't why would all these competitors be spending money on things like Fab, Butcher's etc?

I agree that it is difficult to find unaltered products in many parts due to what Civil War said regarding pumping for profit. Farmland's ribs are pumped for tenderness/texture, not "plumped". So where do you draw the line? Salt Water? Chicken Flavored Salt Water? Artificially Flavored Pork Water? Sodium Phosphates??

Alexa RnQ
05-26-2010, 10:54 AM
Commercially-"enhanced" meat is treated that way because it's inferior to begin with. The pump is intended to bring it up to a level for sale at the broadest level of distribution -- the net effect is just not a significant factor in competition.

KCBS has drawn the line exactly as stated in the meat inspection guidelines -- at added flavors.

ique
05-26-2010, 11:12 AM
There are much better things to pick on the KCBS Board of Directors about than this...

You're over thinking the quote.

Not sure there is much to over think there. Struck me as a comment that added nothing to this thread.

John may be over thinking things though and I think Civil War did a good job answering his question.

B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 11:22 AM
Overthinking? Maybe. It is in print in a KCBS Guideline though. If all the inspectors are in line with Civil Wars thought process, then there probably isn't much concern. As long as my supply chain keeps me in line with unadulterated food then I am fine because I don't want to be using manufactured injected anything.
I think when I was reading it really made me wonder about the length of time some of these products are injected for and how that might effect "leveling the playing field".

Off to play with some soft shell crabs, bacon and avocado...

Smoke'n Ice
05-26-2010, 11:49 AM
[/QUOTE]I would think that a sodium phosphate solution injection would have considerable effect on the meat regarding texture. If it didn't why would all these competitors be spending money on things like Fab, Butcher's etc?

I agree that it is difficult to find unaltered products in many parts due to what Civil War said regarding pumping for profit. Farmland's ribs are pumped for tenderness/texture, not "plumped". So where do you draw the line? Salt Water? Chicken Flavored Salt Water? Artificially Flavored Pork Water? Sodium Phosphates??[/QUOTE]

Sodium phosphate is used to enhance moisture retention in the meat and to keep it from drying out during processing, shipping and shelf storage. It is added with a 10% water (less than a penny a pound) to the meat (more than a penny a pound) for this purpose. Oh, by the way, you pay meat price for the water.

If you end up with this type of product, keep the lable if you open and trim as it will help if asked.

Ron_L
05-26-2010, 11:56 AM
Not sure how to do the blue box quote thing but this is from Diva


Click the Quote button in the post that you want to quote. If you want to quote multiple posts then click the Multi-quote button (to the right on the Quote button) in each post and then click the Reply button at the bottom of the thread.

Off to play with some soft shell crabs, bacon and avocado...

Sounds good...

Ford
05-26-2010, 12:02 PM
Overthinking? Maybe. It is in print in a KCBS Guideline though. If all the inspectors are in line with Civil Wars thought process, then there probably isn't much concern. As long as my supply chain keeps me in line with unadulterated food then I am fine because I don't want to be using manufactured injected anything.
I think when I was reading it really made me wonder about the length of time some of these products are injected for and how that might effect "leveling the playing field".

Off to play with some soft shell crabs, bacon and avocado...
AAAAUUUGGGGHHHHHHHHH!

It's time for some folks to go and read minutes of 2-3 year old meetings or else search archives on different BBQ boards. Might try rep advisories as well. This issue was debated to death when the rule was written. The rule says enhanced meats by the manufacturer are allowed but you or a butcher can not do anything to them until after inspection. I'm pretty sure the BOD issued a statement on this back when the rule was written.

People are correct that many places can only get enhanced meats. A lot of us look carefully for non enhanced pork but we love enhanced chicken because it keeps it moist. No secret there. And many want to do their own injection to pork and to beef. Some with a restaurant actually bring a vacuum tumbler to a contest to try to push flavor into meat and it's legal once meat has been inspected.

Now about crabs. :crazy: In the midwest they are generally bait or something you don't want to get and the only use for avacado is guac with lots of spices. They sure as heck ain't BBQ even if you do wrap them in bacon.:wink:

G$
05-26-2010, 01:25 PM
Wait a minute .... is it January already?

B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 01:46 PM
Why would I go searching through minutes of 2-3 year old meetings? The time spent might be wasted gaining answers that are outdated. I usually do plenty of research on my own before even presenting a question. I saw something in print (new to me) that was contradictory in plain writing and sought to find out what the difference was. Simple as that. Lots of folks with more knowledge than myself are here and offer up lots of advice and answer questions, that's why I come to this board. I spend a heck of alot more time reading than I do writing.

I didn't think I was asking anything akin to say "parting pork" or "reheating in a super hot dutch oven"

I'll save my questions relating to BOD ground breaking decisions until January in the future.

BBQ Grail
05-26-2010, 02:07 PM
I'll save my questions relating to BOD ground breaking decisions until January in the future.

Excellent!

Now back to the discussion on Ford's crabs...

CajunSmoker
05-26-2010, 04:34 PM
Why would I go searching through minutes of 2-3 year old meetings? The time spent might be wasted gaining answers that are outdated. I usually do plenty of research on my own before even presenting a question. I saw something in print (new to me) that was contradictory in plain writing and sought to find out what the difference was. Simple as that. Lots of folks with more knowledge than myself are here and offer up lots of advice and answer questions, that's why I come to this board. I spend a heck of alot more time reading than I do writing.

I didn't think I was asking anything akin to say "parting pork" or "reheating in a super hot dutch oven"

I'll save my questions relating to BOD ground breaking decisions until January in the future.

Sooooo, now lets talk about those crabs, avocado's and bacon:thumb: I think we should brown the crab in the bacon drippings, mix it with the bacon and stuff the avocado's with it, what's your plan:becky: