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boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 06:54 PM
does anybody have any evidence that a team can consistently win without turning in these darn little monsters? not trying to be lazy or skip the skillmanship it takes to prep that way, but, to me anything on the bone is far tastier and attractive than not. except ribeye steak, i like that black and blue and boneless. i think the bone prevents the fat from charring and melting the way i like...but i degress.
how about sauce? is there evidence that a team can consistently win when making their own sauces? or do judges just want to taste blues hog all day long?
thanks for offering any experience and info on these subjects.

Alexa RnQ
05-25-2010, 07:34 PM
We were 8th last year in chicken, don't turn in pillows, and make our own sauces.
BUT
that and $4.75 will get you a venti latte in any other geographic region.

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 07:45 PM
does 1-8 turn in chicken pillows? and blues hog/plowboys/yardbird? if so how come you go against the curve?
i've only done the pillow a handful of times, but something just doesn't sit right with me personally so far.

Bbq Bubba
05-25-2010, 07:52 PM
Well, if your doing the same as all the winners are and not winning, your doing something wrong. :thumb:

Alexa RnQ
05-25-2010, 07:59 PM
how come you go against the curve?
In our area, we can win that way. When that stops winning, we'll do something else.

i've only done the pillow a handful of times, but something just doesn't sit right with me personally so far.
There's no ego in a 9x9 styrofoam box. Once the food goes in that box, it's not about what sits right with you, it's about what sits right with the judges. :thumb:

When your appearance scores are the weakest point of your chicken feedback (i.e., taste and tenderness are more 9s than 8s), then worry about pillows. But the prettiest pillows in the world (or cupcakes, or whatever) aren't any good if they're tough or tasteless.

Brauma
05-25-2010, 08:04 PM
In our area, we can win that way. When that stops winning, we'll do something else.


There's no ego in a 9x9 styrofoam box. Once the food goes in that box, it's not about what sits right with you, it's about what sits right with the judges. :thumb:

When your appearance scores are the weakest point of your chicken feedback (i.e., taste and tenderness are more 9s than 8s), then worry about pillows. But the prettiest pillows in the world aren't any good if they're tough or tasteless.

Word.

I hate thighs but thats what wins here. I keep fighting the urge to turn in a box of drums or wings. It would be cool to do so, but it would be a waste of money.

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:05 PM
naw, it's not like that. i CLEARLY have not perfected this particular presentation of chicken. i've only done it 3 times!!! ;) my feeling is more..ephereal..i guess. but, i definately agree with you. are you suggesting that EVERYONE winning is presenting as such?

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:17 PM
When your appearance scores are the weakest point of your chicken feedback (i.e., taste and tenderness are more 9s than 8s), then worry about pillows.


that is sage advice. i will take it to heart, thank you.

its not about ego, i feel the pillow is somewhat restrictive and to be forced into that box for comp possibly sacrifices the ceiling with which bbq chicken can reach.
not that i could reach the ceiling, but still, its kind of a self inflicted "handcuff".
it makes the chicken category more of a recipe contest for chicken pillows than a BBQ chicken contest. know what i mean??

i'm sure this had been discussed ad nauseum and i'm just stirring the pot.
sorry...

Alexa RnQ
05-25-2010, 08:24 PM
I hate thighs but thats what wins here. I keep fighting the urge to turn in a box of drums or wings. It would be cool to do so, but it would be a waste of money.

You have NO IDEA how much I hate thighs. *vurp*

I have four chicken heads in my freezer, and when I get up to six, I'm going to really, really want to turn them in somewhere. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:26 PM
that is the funniest thing i have read.

i'll pay the entry fee for photos of the judges table.

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:27 PM
i'm still laughing.

Hoss
05-25-2010, 08:35 PM
I judged a KCBS comp last Saturday.Our table had 5 chicken entries.4 thighs,1 dumsticks.No pillows.Was the best chicken overall I have judged yet.The Drumsticks BLEW the others away on taste & tenderness but tanked on appearence.

Ron_L
05-25-2010, 08:41 PM
You have NO IDEA how much I hate thighs. *vurp*

I have four chicken heads in my freezer, and when I get up to six, I'm going to really, really want to turn them in somewhere. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

You have to do it! I would LOVE to see the table captain's face when he opened the box!

BTW, maybe it's a regional thing, but what's a chicken pillow? :confused:

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:44 PM
were they presented poorly and thusly judged or were they judged against what a perfect pillow looks like and therefor considered subpar?

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 08:53 PM
ya know, boned, hyper trimmed, super scraped skin, lifted, tucked, chicken thigh.
i could really be talking out of my bum on this 1, i know. like, the pickled pigs chicken could just as well be tastier and juicier than the best chicken wing ever. i don't know so i'm fishing.

but i'm still chuckling about a box of six chicken heads...

swamprb
05-25-2010, 08:59 PM
I posted linked pics of pillow and cupcake chicken on the PNWBA Judges forum to gauge the reaction to them and the few responses I got was overwhelmingly unfavorable.

Legs seem to do very well for some top teams around here, and like Diva said, its about what sits right with the Judges.

Personally, I'm not wild about comp legs- I've cooked some but have not had the cojones to enter them yet. I'm into the combo box and the love/hate relationship with thighs could end if my scores start tanking.

stlgreg
05-25-2010, 09:16 PM
You have to do it! I would LOVE to see the table captain's face when he opened the box!

BTW, maybe it's a regional thing, but what's a chicken pillow? :confused:

I am thinking a chicken pillow is a boneless thigh with chicken skin wrapped around it.

Ron_L
05-25-2010, 09:22 PM
ya know, boned, hyper trimmed, super scraped skin, lifted, tucked, chicken thigh.
i could really be talking out of my bum on this 1, i know. like, the pickled pigs chicken could just as well be tastier and juicier than the best chicken wing ever. i don't know so i'm fishing.

but i'm still chuckling about a box of six chicken heads...

I am thinking a chicken pillow is a boneless thigh with chicken skin wrapped around it.

Got it. Boneless thighs like on the Pickled Pig web site. I guess I haven't heard them called chicken pillows before.

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 09:29 PM
they have. i'm not that smart to have thought of it.

Alexa RnQ
05-25-2010, 09:49 PM
You have to do it! I would LOVE to see the table captain's face when he opened the box!
We'll have to discuss staging. Beak closed, or propped open? If open, with a parsley inflorescence tucked in it?

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 09:58 PM
heads up, facing out, beaks open, and popcorn easter bunny eyes...

Hoss
05-25-2010, 10:12 PM
They could cook chicken(the drumstick cookers) but knew NOTHING about makin a box!:roll:

Alexa RnQ
05-25-2010, 10:25 PM
popcorn easter bunny eyes...
Foreign object, DQ.

Similarly, if one were to turn in chicken feet, if they were presented curled with the middle toe extended, that would be marking.

boogiesnap
05-25-2010, 10:39 PM
at the point which chicken heads are served in that particular category, i don't know how concerned about a DQ one might be...

...and possibly, but only if your team name was "flipping the bird"...

Crash
05-25-2010, 11:16 PM
You have NO IDEA how much I hate thighs. *vurp*

I have four chicken heads in my freezer, and when I get up to six, I'm going to really, really want to turn them in somewhere. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif


OK Alexa...I'll bite. Why in the heck do you have 4 chicken heads in your freezer? :shocked:

Rookie'48
05-25-2010, 11:17 PM
I would LOVE to be a judge at that comp! According to the rules, and it's on the CD that we listen to at every judges' meeting, we are not supposed to judge what we like, but to judge "as presented by the cook". I'm not real sure how the taste & tenderness would rate, though. ;>)

The Pickled Pig
05-25-2010, 11:29 PM
That particular method of prep has done well for us. However, we've also won with breast only, bone-in thighs, and breast thigh combo boxes in the last year. Regardless of which cut we're working with, our preparation, cooking, and flavor profiles are virtually identical. We aim to turn in chicken that has:

tender, juicy meat that tastes good
soft, bite through skin
appetizing appearance
As long as we accomplish that, I'm not sure it matters much what form factor we use. We didn't go through all the prep work to produce chicken thighs that look like pillows, but by prepping our chicken that way we were able to produce a product that consistently had the characteristics mentioned above that just happened to look like pillows.

Capn Kev
05-25-2010, 11:31 PM
I have competed in 3 competitions since I started last year. I too was in the same boat as far as chicken was concerned. I felt like chicken wins were due to over-manipulated de-boned re-skinned chicken nuggets turned in 9 pieces to the box.

So, I spent a TON of time trying to recreate that process after reading many of the forums available online. Well, my most recent contest I decided (after some input from a friend) to put in 6 perfect pieces with the bone in, and skin cooked to what I considered to be "bite through". Results:? 2nd out of 53 entries. I can tell you that the chicken thighs looked like thighs, and that the pieces were not "perfectly" consistent presentation wise. However, the taste and tenderness were the best I've ever done.

So, the moral of the story...keep trying. Quit looking for the shortcut, if you cook perfect chicken...then it will show. Presentation is the smallest portion of the overall score!

boogiesnap
05-26-2010, 12:04 AM
kev, ain't looking for a shortcut by any means. meat can be preped and cooked any way necessary to win, regardless of effort. we just need to practice it. like others i'm not a fan of the thigh, except for fried, but thats another discussion altogether.

paul, by no means whatsoever did i mean any disrespect if you felt any to your chicken as posted on your site. i a)merely sited your photos as an example of a chicken pillow for ron. b)stated earlier in the thread that despite the extreme alteration of the peice meat itself(which takes great skill and practice and should be rewarded), the end result due to the chefs skills MAY STILL result in the most tasty, tender, and juicy chicken at all possible. c) my question was, does that preparation of chicken, if cooked properly, have results consistently superior to all other chicken presentations.

lastly, yours and divaherself's and capn kevs answers have really helped me. y'all are confident enough in your product that you'll turn in what you feel is good BBQ, pillow, drum, breast, chicken head.......CHOINKHEADS anyone???

i'm unseasoned, barely on the burner, but for whatever reason, i feel a change comin on, and thought i'd feel it out...

boogiesnap
05-26-2010, 12:37 AM
lets hypothosize.
same chef
same recipe
same prep quality
same cook skill
equal box artistry
chicken wings in one box
chicken pillows in another box
which do you turn in at the american royal in order to win?

Crash
05-26-2010, 12:51 AM
lets hypothosize.

same chef
same recipe
same prep quality
same cook skill
equal box artistry
chicken wings in one box
chicken pillows in another box
which do you turn in at the american royal in order to win?

I'd probably do a third box with chicken heads...just sayin'. :thumb:

B C BBQ
05-26-2010, 01:02 AM
assuming(should I?) that the cook is competent and both the wings and the thighs are equally successfully prepared...I would turn in both. I have been practicing bone-in chicken breasts with amazing results...soon to find out

Alexa RnQ
05-26-2010, 01:02 AM
OK Alexa...I'll bite. Why in the heck do you have 4 chicken heads in your freezer? :shocked:

Because they'll keep longer there. Durr.

Crash
05-26-2010, 01:06 AM
Because they'll keep longer there. Durr.

Smart aleck!

Alexa RnQ
05-26-2010, 01:17 AM
Oh, oKAY.
Here's the deal: The dog eats raw chicken necks, that we buy by the case.
Every so often in a case of necks, I score a head.
After I terrorize the boys with it, I toss it in the freezer, because a girl never knows when she'll need a chicken head -- or six.

Bigmista
05-26-2010, 01:47 AM
Alexa scares me a little more each day.

Has anyone considered turning in boneless skinless breasts?

butts a fire
05-26-2010, 07:37 AM
Interesting conversation I prefer to cook and turn in Bone in thighs because they turn out better. Based on what I have seen around here thighs normally win but they do not have to be chicken pillows to win.

chibi
05-26-2010, 07:54 AM
You have NO IDEA how much I hate thighs. *vurp*

I have four chicken heads in my freezer, and when I get up to six, I'm going to really, really want to turn them in somewhere. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif


Could you do that in Pueblo next weekend:-P
maybe my rubber skin will have a chance.

Michael
CHIBI-Q

KC_Bobby
05-26-2010, 09:48 AM
When your appearance scores are the weakest point of your chicken feedback (i.e., taste and tenderness are more 9s than 8s), then worry about pillows. But the prettiest pillows in the world (or cupcakes, or whatever) aren't any good if they're tough or tasteless.

Bingo - when I used to try for pretty chicken, our scores were bad. Now that I concentrate on taste and tenderness and I'm willing to sacrifice an app point in the process our scores have been pretty much over 160 since. While not always outstanding scores, they are not killing us at the end of the day either.

Jacked UP BBQ
05-26-2010, 09:56 AM
I like to refer to them as chicken tube steaks

Sweet Breathe BBQ
05-26-2010, 10:53 AM
Forgive me for getting a little "geeky" here but statistically speaking chicken thighs have a better chance of winning b/c there are a higher percentage of thighs turned in than any other. If someone started winning with other chicken parts, lets say heads, and everyone else followed suit and 80% of the turn-ins were chicken heads statistically chicken heads would have a higher chance of winning. Bottom line, all competitors should band together and only turn in chicken heads and leave it in the hands of the judges! :crazy:

Butt-A-Bing!
05-26-2010, 11:20 AM
How bout a year long ban on thighs? All in favor? Aye. Man, BBQ chicken used to be my favorite food. Now it's hard to cook it at home without thinking about competition chicken thigh pillow ball cupcake things..

G$
05-26-2010, 01:31 PM
Has anyone considered turning in boneless skinless breasts?

Yes, and I have also considered turning in boneless, skin-on breasts.

CBQ
05-26-2010, 02:02 PM
Under the rules KCBS chicken doesn't need skin, however I rather suspect judges will punish people for taking the easy way out and skipping the skin entirely. Have people done skinless turn ins? How do they do vs the same recipe skin-on?

BearCat
05-26-2010, 02:17 PM
I am intrested in a judges opinion of boneless skinless anything, as I understand from my judging class is they are suppose to judge based on what the cook was trying to achieve in thier style,
I do think judges discuss afterwards, with each other what they judged and thought was great, then the other judges can't wait to find it in thier box so when they see the "pillows" they automatically assume it must be the best

CivilWarBBQ
05-26-2010, 04:52 PM
In my experience, judges discuss with each other the entries at their table after the scores are turned in. It's pretty rare for one judge to talk about the entries with another judge who was not on their table, beyond generalities: "we had some good brisket" or "one chicken entry was raw".

It's the cooks who pump judges for details after they leave the judging tent and make the rounds, not other judges, from what I've seen.

As for the "pillow", boneless, skinless, etc. debate... for myself I like to see variety in entries. I will judge a sliced Asian BBQ boneless skinless breast the same way I do a "pillowed" thigh, by asking myself the question: How good a version is this entry for what it is?

Regardless of how unconventional a recipe you turn in, if you really nailed it you are going to get nines from me if it is a legal entry. It's not my job as a judge to decide what you turn in; my job is to give it a score.

bigdogphin
05-26-2010, 05:10 PM
When I first started I exclusivley used chicken pillows, then I left the bone in, then I switched to legs. For the amount of work the pillows require, I have found that it is not worth the extra affort to do them. My scores have been consistently higher a 2nd and a 6th with legs than with pillows the 10 to 14 range. Are my scores higher because I did leas or because I am a better cook? I do know that my back doesn't hurt anymore after prepping chicken.

Rookie'48
05-26-2010, 10:53 PM
Regardless of how unconventional a recipe you turn in, if you really nailed it you are going to get nines from me if it is a legal entry. It's not my job as a judge to decide what you turn in; my job is to give it a score.

A-farkin'-men :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:. Skin on / no skin, thighs, drummies, boobies or wangs - just make it taste like I want MORE!!! We, as judges, are supposed to judge not according to our tastes, but rather "as presented" by the cook.
As for myself, I don't really care for "sweet" but you can make my day with some "heat". That's what I prefer, like, would cook for myself, etc. But when I'm in the judging tent I'll do my very best to put my preferances aside & see if what you put in the box is a good example of that cooking style. Wasabi-plum with a honey-molasses glaze on brisket might not be what I would prefer for lunch but if you did a good job of defining the flavors, building up the "layers of flavors" and not letting one flavor overpower the others ..... then I'll give it a good score.
On the other hand, last weekend at the GAB there was a judge at our table who was quite proud of the oven-cooked brisket that he does at home :shock:.

Navchop
05-27-2010, 08:19 AM
I judged at Chesapeake last weekend and there were no "pillows" at our table. There was one box of legs that, to me, had the best presentation. The best tasting had no sauce (rubbed and smoked only). A lot of the entries in all catagories were over sauced (IMHO) and sweet was the predominate flavor. The ones that could follow the sweet taste with a little heat or pepper faired best. I could not bite through the skin on two of the entries of chicken (and yes I had my teeth in).

It was my first time judging and I enjoyed it.

early mornin' smokin'
05-27-2010, 08:22 AM
the best i ever did with chicken was an 11th place with drumsticks, looks like im gonna revisit those this year

PatioDaddio
05-27-2010, 10:52 AM
This is a bit of a digression, but lest we forget cornish game hens. They are legal and box-friendly.

I turned in four breasts and four leg quarters last summer at a comp against some heavy hitters (http://kcbs.us/events.php?year=2009&month=6&id=1519) and did fairly well (7th of 27 -- 162.2860), especially considering that I had never practiced.

Here is a crappy cell phone pic:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4003/4644594057_0f634a35d9_o.jpg

I would certainly try it again.

Just an idea,
John

Smokesman
05-27-2010, 11:25 AM
A-farkin'-men :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:. Skin on / no skin, thighs, drummies, boobies or wangs - just make it taste like I want MORE!!! We, as judges, are supposed to judge not according to our tastes, but rather "as presented" by the cook.
As for myself, I don't really care for "sweet" but you can make my day with some "heat". That's what I prefer, like, would cook for myself, etc. But when I'm in the judging tent I'll do my very best to put my preferances aside & see if what you put in the box is a good example of that cooking style. Wasabi-plum with a honey-molasses glaze on brisket might not be what I would prefer for lunch but if you did a good job of defining the flavors, building up the "layers of flavors" and not letting one flavor overpower the others ..... then I'll give it a good score.
On the other hand, last weekend at the GAB there was a judge at our table who was quite proud of the oven-cooked brisket that he does at home :shock:.

Amen brother. Thanks! Putting preferences aside especially for taste and tenderness is an important part of KCBS judging. Appearance is more of a gut feeling so preference visually I think is part of the equation.

Balance of flavors in all cooking be it BBQ or haute cuisine is key. Brightness of flavors is also very important. You do not need a highly trained palate to determine balance and brightness of flavors. If an entry no matter the ingredients is well-rounded and the flavors seemingly explode then you have some top notch cooking! A nice little twist on the finish be it heat or something unexpected is always nice.

So was Mr. oven-cooked brisket openly judging the brisket entries against his own version?

comfrank
05-27-2010, 02:06 PM
Forgive me for getting a little "geeky" here but statistically speaking chicken thighs have a better chance of winning b/c there are a higher percentage of thighs turned in than any other. If someone started winning with other chicken parts, lets say heads, and everyone else followed suit and 80% of the turn-ins were chicken heads statistically chicken heads would have a higher chance of winning. Bottom line, all competitors should band together and only turn in chicken heads and leave it in the hands of the judges! :crazy:

This point is a good one. Thighs are winning most of the time because the overwhelming majority of people enter thighs. We have know idea if entering thighs increases, decreases (or leaves the same) your chances of winning. I have professional-level skills in statistical inference. What we would actually need is, to keep it simple, the number of competitors that enter thighs and win, the number that enter thighs and do not win, the number that enter something other than thighs and win, and the number entering something other than thighs but losing. You then statistically compare the win percentage among the thigh submitters to the win percentage among the non-thigh submitters. Maybe to account for people who have done more than one of the above, just ask what they did at their most recent contest. If someone wants to do the poll, I'll analyze the data.

--frank in Wilson, NY

daedalus
05-27-2010, 02:50 PM
You know, its funny, because I have not really seen all that many chicken pillows come across my tables lately. Mostly it has been bone-in, skin-on thighs. I have also noticed that this year I have been seeing a lot more "alternate" chicken parts, particularly legs, than I have in the past. I feel like we may be at the beginning of a bit of a shift in convention.

I am intrested in a judges opinion of boneless skinless anything, as I understand from my judging class is they are suppose to judge based on what the cook was trying to achieve in thier style,
I do think judges discuss afterwards, with each other what they judged and thought was great, then the other judges can't wait to find it in thier box so when they see the "pillows" they automatically assume it must be the best
I can honestly say that it makes absolutely no difference to me what is turned in as long as it is a legal entry. Having said that, there are some inherent challenges in turning in things like skinless boneless breasts. Because they are white meat, it is easier to overcook them, they are more likely to dry out by the time they reach the judges, and making them look good is more difficult(though certainly not impossible) when there is no skin to turn all mahogany and yummy looking, and the white meat itself has less natural flavor than does dark meat. If, however, a cook can pull it off, skinless boneless breasts can be one of the best things you can judge. That is a rare occurrence though.


A-farkin'-men :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:. Skin on / no skin, thighs, drummies, boobies or wangs - just make it taste like I want MORE!!! We, as judges, are supposed to judge not according to our tastes, but rather "as presented" by the cook.
As for myself, I don't really care for "sweet" but you can make my day with some "heat". That's what I prefer, like, would cook for myself, etc. But when I'm in the judging tent I'll do my very best to put my preferances aside & see if what you put in the box is a good example of that cooking style. Wasabi-plum with a honey-molasses glaze on brisket might not be what I would prefer for lunch but if you did a good job of defining the flavors, building up the "layers of flavors" and not letting one flavor overpower the others ..... then I'll give it a good score.
On the other hand, last weekend at the GAB there was a judge at our table who was quite proud of the oven-cooked brisket that he does at home :shock:.

Ok, I want YOU teaching the judging classes...That is EXACTLY the attitude judges should have! I couldn't have said it better! I feel your pain about the brisket guy...I had one at my table a couple of weeks ago who was telling me all about how he short-cuts his ribs by parboiling them first.:tsk: It was painful!

indianagriller
05-27-2010, 03:19 PM
5th place chicken - Average score from the 6 judges 9/8/9
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll194/indianasp/Benton%20Ky%202010/P4030030.jpg

boogiesnap
05-27-2010, 08:55 PM
that^^^^^^, plus all above statements, lead me to believe, even though i am just stepping into this forum, both brethren and bbq comp, that the chicken pillow is NOT the absolute winning preparation, although, of course it MAY be depending on the chef, but it aint required. guys and gals, let's get it on. chicken heads to chicken feet. show them good bbq.


i have become very excited at all the possibilties.

boogiesnap
05-27-2010, 09:26 PM
and i have to agree with com frank. it's not necessarily that because more pillows are turned in, more win. i am surmising that those winning at a particular point in time were turning in excellent pillows and que and therefor winning, so, many followed suit, beleiving that was the winning formula. at least thats what a greenhorn like me did.

landarc
05-28-2010, 01:52 AM
Just to clarify, DivaHerself has done better than fourth plenty of times. If I was competing and could match her results, why, I might be California TOY some day.

Plowboy
06-04-2010, 10:29 AM
does 1-8 turn in chicken pillows? and blues hog/plowboys/yardbird?

Those aren't pillows!!!!! :shocked:

Jacked UP BBQ
06-04-2010, 10:41 AM
pillow pillow pillow

BBQchef33
06-04-2010, 01:19 PM
A-farkin'-men :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:. Skin on / no skin, thighs, drummies, boobies or wangs - just make it taste like I want MORE!!! We, as judges, are supposed to judge not according to our tastes, but rather "as presented" by the cook.
As for myself, I don't really care for "sweet" but you can make my day with some "heat". That's what I prefer, like, would cook for myself, etc. But when I'm in the judging tent I'll do my very best to put my preferances aside & see if what you put in the box is a good example of that cooking style. Wasabi-plum with a honey-molasses glaze on brisket might not be what I would prefer for lunch but if you did a good job of defining the flavors, building up the "layers of flavors" and not letting one flavor overpower the others ..... then I'll give it a good score.
On the other hand, last weekend at the GAB there was a judge at our table who was quite proud of the oven-cooked brisket that he does at home :shock:.



and that sir is why YOU ARE MASTER JUDGE! Id be proud to be scored by judges like you regardless of the outcome. Knowing the judge has done it right and gave me what i deserved is more important that getting all 9's.

BTW.. heres a chicken pillow IMO...

i never heard of it having to be deboned.

bad picture, but first one I found laying around.



i like the pillow.. i think they are the most appealing of all the choices, drummies, wings, etc.cc loook like.. well, drummies and wings.. a well trimmed thigh, with skin tucked under just looks better imo. (dont go there). :)