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View Full Version : DQs on the Dutch Oven Pork method?


HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 11:23 AM
Hope the 2010 season is going well for folks in warmer climates, cook from the Northeast here is still waiting to kick off the year.

Just wondering how everyone is coping with the new pork reheating rule. The work around I am hearing buzz about, and the one I have been practicing, is to place pulled/chunked pork into a Dutch Oven which contains sauce and has been heated on the cooker. The DO is off the heat source at this time of course.

Anyone seen this in function yet this year?

thenewguy
05-09-2010, 11:25 AM
re-heating is illegal. period. why try to skirt around it?

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 11:34 AM
It is only illegal to "return seperated meat to a cooker" per the 2010 rules and regs.

Sawdustguy
05-09-2010, 11:36 AM
re-heating is illegal. period. why try to skirt around it?

I agree. Why try to push the envelope and risk cheating?

It is only illegal to "return seperated meat to a cooker" per the 2010 rules and regs.

The work around I am hearing buzz about, and the one I have been practicing, is to place pulled/chunked pork into a Dutch Oven which contains sauce and has been heated on the cooker.

Pulled/chunked pork is not serparated meat?

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 12:01 PM
It definitely IS seperated, that is why I am not returning to a cooker.

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 12:05 PM
Perhaps I phrased this thread incorrectly. I am less interested in a discussion with those who think the Dutchie method is illegal and more concerned with feedback from those by whom it is employed. Thank you.

KC_Bobby
05-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Why part the pork until it's time to go in the box?

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 01:07 PM
No matter how quick your hands one must admit it takes at least a little time to break down, pick through, sauce and arrange enough pork for six judges from 2-4 butts. Certainly some heat is lost here?

Red Valley BBQ
05-09-2010, 01:18 PM
I would be inclined to believe that putting the pork in a dutch oven would be legal as long as the dutch oven has previously been heated and is NOT on a heat source when the pork is put in it. If this is illegal, then putting your pork in a cambro or a cooler to keep it warm after it has been seperated should constitute a DQ as well. I would really like to have Merl or somebody from the KCBS BOD chime in on this one.

Bbq Bubba
05-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Already SO many threads on this.
If you need to reheat your pork you need to re-look at your cooking & holding techniques.

Butcher BBQ
05-09-2010, 01:55 PM
I read the rules as such:
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or Whole
Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds. Pork shall
be cooked whole (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
separated during the cooking process. At no time shall the
meat once separated be returned to a cooker

If you can make your chunks 5 pounds or your pulled 5 pounds pieces you might have a reason to argue, till then why push the envelope.

Alexa RnQ
05-09-2010, 02:53 PM
I am less interested in a discussion with those who think the Dutchie method is illegal and more concerned with feedback from those by whom it is employed.
*holds breath waiting for flood of cooks admitting in print that they stew pork chunks in sauce*

http://www.divaherself.com/crylaugh.gif

Ford
05-09-2010, 04:09 PM
The BOD discussed this and it's legal so long as the container with the heated sauce is not still in the cooker or on a gas burner. Remember a lot of teams heat a pan of sauce (gas or microwave) til almost boiling then put pulled in in. And you could do the same with slices so long as you can get them out OK. My concern would be too much sauce that would lead to pooling in the bottom of the box. Be bery careful with that.

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 04:17 PM
SO many smarmy comments from BBQ item vendors who I will never buy from again, what a shame, just trying to support Brethren.

I'm assuming all you folks who are pishawing the Dutchie method don't utilize a Cambro in any way.

Bbq Bubba
05-09-2010, 06:30 PM
Supporting Brethren by bagging on Brethren?

Ron_L
05-09-2010, 07:11 PM
I'm assuming all you folks who are pishawing the Dutchie method don't utilize a Cambro in any way.

These two can't even be compared. A Cambro will not burn your hand if you touch it. It is not a source of heat. A preheated dutch oven will. You simply cannot compare a preheated piece of cast iron to an insulated plastic box. This has nothing to do with legality. The comparison is simply not valid.

SirPorkaLot
05-09-2010, 07:24 PM
Wait...you soak your pork in SAUCE?

That there is a crime in at least half a dozen southern states I'm sure, not to mention :boxing:

oh never mind....
I just noticed you were in the north east :rolleyes:

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 07:28 PM
Yeah, tried the simple vinegar style first time out and got my arse handed to me. Sticky and sweet up our way apparently.

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 07:29 PM
Oh, and I believe the reigning Jack Daniel's Champ is from the northeast. :)

Smoke'n Ice
05-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Has anyone considered that at the judging tables the following occurs:
1. The TC opens the box and shows it around (this could be as much as 15 minutes after turnin.
2. The box is then passed from judge to judge and each take their sample and place it on their placemat
3. This is repeated for all six entries
4. The Judge now samples the first enty and scores it; and then the second; etc.
5. The time the meat is sitting on a piece of paper could be as much as five (5) minutes.
6. It can be pipping hot when you place it in your box but, by the time the judge actually judges it for taste and texture, it will be darn close to stone cold.
7. You maybe should be more concerned with the taste of your product when it is cold than with ways to circumvent the rules.

barbefunkoramaque
05-09-2010, 07:42 PM
Something tells me the next one is not gonna be you, Paul... uh sorry, swede.

Look, you wanted opinions and you got some.

Take it from me, you cannot come in here and say things like I have

"the traditionalists actually simmered their cuts" or

"pump up the temp to 280 to get good some good Cue" or

"want to learn to cook a brisket to perfection... learn to cook it in an oven in foil first to get the feel"

You cannot tell people these things and not get a few people pissin in your fruitloops. NO Manner of cooking has more passion than Q.

YOU DID however get some great g&% damn advise from Ford and a few other people that know their mother ****ing ****. Your vendor comment is out of line... not to mention... well, stupid if you want to succeed in BBQing comps. They know... the always know.

Now continue on with your thought and never hesitate to bring up a subject... no matter how weird.... this it the perfect forum for pushing the limit.

barbefunkoramaque
05-09-2010, 07:45 PM
Smoke on Ice is mentioning a brilliant strategy that has been discussed a lot here. Think about it. You can control the heat of the product up until you let go of it. I makes more sense to do this.

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 07:50 PM
I need some clarification on two comments: the one about Paul and the other about vendors always knowing. Who's Paul, and knowing what?

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 07:53 PM
The heat would not be such an issue for me if I didn't find out (eventually after a few comps and talks with winning cooks) that the majority of teams on this circuit anyway reheat, and upon my first attempt at reheating with nothing else changed in my recipe I had my best finish in pork for the year.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-09-2010, 08:18 PM
SO many smarmy comments from BBQ item vendors who I will never buy from again, what a shame, just trying to support Brethren.

I'm assuming all you folks who are pishawing the Dutchie method don't utilize a Cambro in any way.

I am not a vendor, a rub company etc.. I have read many post on this matter and it still comes down to this. you can not add heat to pulled or parted pork. heated sauce away from a heat source ...yes...........an insulated cooler with out an out side heat source, yes.. a container with an out side heat source (cooker, microwave, electric hot box) no.

please support the sport, by supporting the rules.

best of luck...

SirPorkaLot
05-09-2010, 08:28 PM
The heat would not be such an issue for me if I didn't find out (eventually after a few comps and talks with winning cooks) that the majority of teams on this circuit anyway reheat, and upon my first attempt at reheating with nothing else changed in my recipe I had my best finish in pork for the year.

:heh: :tape: :tsk:

As much as i know I just should just hush..i will leave you with this quote:

ďIntegrity is doing the right thing, even if nobody is watching. (http://thinkexist.com/quotation/integrity_is_doing_the_right_thing-even_if_nobody/13808.html)Ē

Bentley
05-09-2010, 08:32 PM
Question Authority.

barbefunkoramaque
05-09-2010, 08:38 PM
Never trust Whitey.

BBQchef33
05-09-2010, 08:53 PM
DO methood is legal as long as its away from heat source when the pork is in it.. however... IMO, the hot DO itslef IS a heat source. agree or not, its my opionion.. not sure what the board would say.

in all the threads that have bounced around on this.. i dont comment, basically because i just dont get the issue... in 7 years of competing, reheating pork has never been required in my site.

When I pull my pork out of the cooler or cambro, I put on a pair of cotton gloves, and then cover the cotton gloves with food handler gloves, OR i put on 3 pairs of latex ones.. and still burn my fingers.

why?

because that chit is still so piping hot that you can not touch it without blistering.

My sauce is heated to near boiling in a pot(or kept in a covered half pan, in my pit), and then placed in a bowl on my prep table when the pork is opened up. We dip in the sauce, arrange in the box, brush it to touch up and off it goes.. piping f'ing hot.


I think if u need to reheat becaise the meat is too cold, u need to adjust something else.

Ford
05-09-2010, 09:01 PM
Has anyone considered that at the judging tables the following occurs:
1. The TC opens the box and shows it around (this could be as much as 15 minutes after turnin.
2. The box is then passed from judge to judge and each take their sample and place it on their placemat
3. This is repeated for all six entries
4. The Judge now samples the first enty and scores it; and then the second; etc.
5. The time the meat is sitting on a piece of paper could be as much as five (5) minutes.
6. It can be pipping hot when you place it in your box but, by the time the judge actually judges it for taste and texture, it will be darn close to stone cold.
7. You maybe should be more concerned with the taste of your product when it is cold than with ways to circumvent the rules.
So true. I see people sample their food before making the box and that's it. Others hand the box to the runner and eat. Everybody who has helped me for the last 3-4 years knows we leave the chicken out for 15 minutes. Ribs I just sample a few after because I know exactly how they taste and how tender they are before turning in. Yes if you cook enough you do know. But if you really want to see what the judges eat then take the walk time plus 10-15 minutes depending on contest size and sample then. You'd be surprised.

having said that it is a good idea to heat up pork once pulled. However if you use slices of MM and chunks then you probably can just use hot sauce to brush on or dip pieces in quickly. I prefer brush.

I know I can pull a butt in under 5 minutes and it can be 180+ when I start and once sauced it will be lucky to hit 140 so it needs to go back in the cooker before vending. Doesn't matter for comps as judges will eat it within 15-20 minutes but it sure does for vending if an inspector comes along.

HandsomeSwede
05-09-2010, 09:17 PM
BBQChef33 -

Thank you for feedback in context to the original intent of my thread. This is exactly the method I have been practicing and it seems as though it has served you well in 7 years. Others seem interested in debating the manner in which that sauce is heated.

swamprb
05-09-2010, 11:46 PM
Is there a univerally recommended Dutch Oven for this process?

yelonutz
05-09-2010, 11:53 PM
If I need to go thru this BS to win, look for me towards the bottom of the list. I will be the looser holding my head high. Its only farking bbq!!

NUTZ

HandsomeSwede
05-10-2010, 07:54 AM
Is there a univerally recommended Dutch Oven for this process?

I have been using a scratch and dent Le Creuset with a very wide bottom, find that more surface area will keep the pork from steaming or "stewing" as a Left Coaster so nicely put it.

Just to clarify for those lurking, I will no longer be "reheating" my pork; but I will be placing pieces into boiling hot sauce not on any heat source before putting pieces into the turn-in box. Just semantics?

ique
05-10-2010, 08:15 AM
re-heating is illegal. period. why try to skirt around it?

No its not. You can take a whole butt and put it back on the pit. Reheating parted/processed pork on your pit is illegal

Why part the pork until it's time to go in the box?

Because its easier to slice cooled down pork than blazing hot pork


I just noticed you were in the north east :rolleyes:

http://iquebarbecue.com/the_jack


Has anyone considered that at the judging tables the following occurs:

7. You maybe should be more concerned with the taste of your product when it is cold than with ways to circumvent the rules.

I took a barbecue class one time and the teacher said hot barbecue tastes better than cold barbecue.
I'll make every legal effort I can to get the product to the judges as hot as possible.

HandsomeSwede
05-10-2010, 08:26 AM
Oh, there is that reigning Jack Champ I spoke of earlier in the thread!

bigabyte
05-10-2010, 09:18 AM
I took a barbecue class one time and the teacher said hot barbecue tastes better than cold barbecue.
I'll make every legal effort I can to get the product to the judges as hot as possible.
This is just food for thought, not criticism or anything. I recently took a judging class, and the instructor went through all the reasons listed above about why the food will likely get cold by the time you taste it. That instructor told everyone there not to score down for food being cold, but to only judge it for taste and tenderness, leaving temp out of it. So that's what newly trained judges are thinking.

ique
05-10-2010, 09:52 AM
This is just food for thought, not criticism or anything. I recently took a judging class, and the instructor went through all the reasons listed above about why the food will likely get cold by the time you taste it. That instructor told everyone there not to score down for food being cold, but to only judge it for taste and tenderness, leaving temp out of it. So that's what newly trained judges are thinking.

Yes, I understand that judges are being trained that way. A warm piece of pork tastes better and is more tender than a cold piece of pork. I think you'll probably get a better score with warm even though the judges are trained that way.

KC_Bobby
05-10-2010, 10:07 AM
So we're in agreement - part it right before you box it. :bow:

Jacked UP BBQ
05-10-2010, 10:10 AM
I just take an entire butt now and put it in the box, I don't want to risk breaking any rules!

B C BBQ
05-10-2010, 11:16 AM
Do you take the bone out of the whole butt before you place it in the box for turn in or are you using boneless?

Might be easier if we change the pork turn in container to 4" deep aluminum half hotel pan and then we could turn in whole butts...take the leftovers, feed the volunteers, judges could stuff themselves and probably a whole lot leftover for for the comp site local food kitchen.

Tweedle
05-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Wait...you soak your pork in SAUCE?

That there is a crime in at least half a dozen southern states I'm sure, not to mention :boxing:

oh never mind....
I just noticed you were in the north east :rolleyes:

Hey hey hey now I resemble that remark.... not everyone up here is that way.... :boxing::boxing:


oh and p.s.
I WILL buy from a certain Brethren again and again and again, because the service is great and the products are amazing.

SirPorkaLot
05-10-2010, 01:59 PM
Hey hey hey now I resemble that remark.... not everyone up here is that way.... :boxing::boxing:


oh and p.s.
I WILL buy from a certain Brethren again and again and again, because the service is great and the products are amazing.

Lol..sorry just a good humored jab at our NE brethren..

and I agree 100% with the certain Brethren vendors - great service & products.

Tweedle
05-10-2010, 02:03 PM
Lol..sorry just a good humored jab at our NE brethren..

and I agree 100% with the certain Brethren vendors - great service & products.



:becky::becky::becky:I figured it was a jk because NE BBQ is so good, even Myron is afraid compete up here...

now down there.......

HoDeDo
05-10-2010, 06:13 PM
I do not need to reheat/maintain heat in my pork prior to turn-in. I pull it from the cooker, rest it in the Cambro, crack foil slightly when prepping ribs... then after rib prep, get sauce (not heated) and proceed to find the pieces I want to turn in... sauce, and into the box they go.

Having said that, I think folks know I feel the "clarification" is stupid. And the 2010 rule is as well. You can put every other food back in the cooker to set sauce. I dont agree with the rule as it is... but I live by it. That is what we have to do.

Personally, I dont like to heat my sauce -- it has a little kick to it... and bringing it to a boil releases more heat from it than I want the judges to have. I also wouldnt want my pork cooked so much it falls apart on its own, even hot. I should be able to take chunks, slices or pulled bits even hot. I also think steeping it in sauce changes the flavor of the meat. (at least mine) so I would never soak it in sauce and risk changing the flavor profile... sauce is an accoutrement, not anything I want stealing the show from my meat.

That is my .02 -- take it for what it is worth. :)

smokincracker
05-10-2010, 07:34 PM
Why part the pork until it's time to go in the box?

Thatís what I'm saying; as soon as the pork is parted you loose moisture and heat. Then when you introduce more heat you just cook any moisture that the meat has left right out thru your smoker stack forcing an over application of that special BBQ sauce that the judges donít really want. At contests I often see all these cookers putting the meat on at 8 and 9 at night and I just donít get it. Iím guessing maybe in an effort to free up some cooker space in the AM for bird & ribs? I prefer to pull my pork no earlier than 10 or 11AM and then I hope it is cooled down enough to handle with out burning my fingys.

Good luck at your next contest Brothers

Rookie'48
05-10-2010, 11:35 PM
Having said that, I think folks know I feel the "clarification" is stupid. And the 2010 rule is as well. You can put every other food back in the cooker to set sauce. I dont agree with the rule as it is... but I live by it. That is what we have to do.

I also think steeping it in sauce changes the flavor of the meat. (at least mine) so I would never soak it in sauce and risk changing the flavor profile... sauce is an accoutrement, not anything I want stealing the show from my meat.

That is my .02 -- take it for what it is worth. :)

THAT'S what I've been trying to say :doh:.

michiana mark
05-10-2010, 11:49 PM
Just my .02 on the subject. As a judge, I can't remember the last time I had "hot" pork presented to me at the table. Chicken , yes, but not pork. Here may be a reason. Chicken is first. All the boxes are grouped together as they come in, First in, first out to a table of judges. After that, boxes are separated and grouped together, so that no table gets food from the same cook twice. Your box may be steaming hot when you turn it in at 12:55, but then it has to sit there while the rest of your competitors amble up at 1:04:55, and place there box down, that they have been fussing over for the last 20 minutes. Just my .02

swamprb
05-11-2010, 05:56 AM
After helping assemble sample turn in boxes for a recent KCBS Judging class, and acting as the TC, I was amazed at how fast the meats became cold and unappealling for the prospective new CBJ's. The same meats that I found to be very good tasting as it went into the boxes drew complaints as "the worst they'd ever tasted" from the newbies. All I can say is I sat in their seats at one time and said the same thing!

HandsomeSwede
05-11-2010, 11:30 AM
Bubba,

I wanted to take a moment and apologize for my vendor comment directed your way in the Dutchie thread. It was uncalled for and inappropriate. I am positive the tone of any response in no way reflects your business operations as a BBQ retailer.

barbefunkoramaque
05-11-2010, 11:32 AM
see that a boy! Welcome to the brethen swede!