PDA

View Full Version : What would your reaction be?


Brewmaster
04-28-2010, 03:40 PM
I was at a contest recently and the team next to me was disqualified on their pork entry. Later after the contest I talked to the team members about the reason they were disqualified. They proceeded to tell me it was for using kale and endives. So I asked them if they used kale and endives on their chicken and rib entry. They said they did, and not only at this contest. They used kale and endives on all four categories at a previous contest. At that point I was getting frustrated because his previous contest was the same contest I competed in. So I looked up the results and they placed in the top ten in one category. Not that it made a huge difference in the outcome of the contest but the fact that this got past six table captains and thirty-six judges before getting caught is what disturbed me. But the worst part of the whole situation was that he told me he was a CBJ himself. Now I could see a situation where the rules were kind of vague or a little gray, but this rule is spelled out in black and white. At what point do they take away someone’s CBJ status? What other rules are being broken and missed? I want to say I am very disappointed in a system that I spend a lot of time and money involved in.
Nate
CBJ# 21746

nthole
04-28-2010, 03:46 PM
Nate, I agree that there is some issue with the CBJ certification. The fact that they hold certification classes right before a competition just for that competition so they can say it's completely filled by CBJs kinda missrepresents the judging. Doesn't mean they are qualified CBJs.

We got burned by a questionable 'cbj' judgement in Washington. Reps said they tried to talk with him about it but he wouldn't budge. To me, KCBS ought to be tracking reps history and ability if they are going to put their name behind the person. They also ought to be able to take action on someone if they can see the person really shouldn't be judging, whether it be removing their status or asking them to re-attend training.

Brewmaster
04-28-2010, 03:54 PM
I have been told that any CBJ can attend any judging class for free. My thought is that some kind of continued education should be mandatory to keep your CBJ status. If is means you attend a class every year to find out the rule changes or some kind of online class. There seems to be a disconnect somewhere. I mean really....36 judges and 6 table captains can't recognize kale and endives?

Stoke&Smoke
04-28-2010, 04:41 PM
Have to agree with this one. I can understand (kind of) a new judge missing this, but not a full table full AND a table captain!

Smokedelic
04-28-2010, 05:05 PM
This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.

NRA4Life
04-28-2010, 07:24 PM
This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.

I just went through Mike Lake's CBJ class this past weekend, and probably 90% of the class time was spent on how to judge the meat. There was a small portion devoted to illegal garnish, but examples of what each illegal garnish looked like was not provided.

Sledneck
04-28-2010, 07:36 PM
KCBS should take some lessons from the FBA, not sure if I am correct on this but I do believe the FBA also tracks judges as well

FBA Judge Requirements


Maintain an active FBA Membership.
Judge a minimum of one FBA sanctioned contest every 12 months. (note: failure to achieve this requirement means you will have to attend an FBA Judge's Training Seminar prior to judging again.)
Be present for the Judges Briefing at any contest your are confirmed to judge. Failure to be present means that you will not judge that contest. Check-in for judges starts at 9am on the day of the contest and ends at 9:30am. The Judges Briefing begins at 9:30am, followed by the Table Captains Briefing.
If you fail to show for three contests that you are confirmed to judge without notifying either the Organizer or one of the Reps, you will be removed from the list of judges for future contests.
Judge all four categories at any contest you are seated at for judging.
During the contest, you are not allowed to visit with the cook teams. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the judging that day.
After the contest, you may visit with the cook teams, however you may not discuss any part of the judging including your scores. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the list of judges for future contests.

TMac
04-28-2010, 07:43 PM
:confused: Hmmmmmm..............Isn't it about the meat??:confused: As if it's not hard enough getting the stuff in the box !:crazy:

smokeshowin
04-28-2010, 07:54 PM
I know it's a dead horse, but, no garnish, no problem. :doh:

Weiss Mountain Smoke
04-28-2010, 08:48 PM
Nate, I agree that there is some issue with the CBJ certification. The fact that they hold certification classes right before a competition just for that competition so they can say it's completely filled by CBJs kinda missrepresents the judging. Doesn't mean they are qualified CBJs.

We got burned by a questionable 'cbj' judgement in Washington. Reps said they tried to talk with him about it but he wouldn't budge. To me, KCBS ought to be tracking reps history and ability if they are going to put their name behind the person. They also ought to be able to take action on someone if they can see the person really shouldn't be judging, whether it be removing their status or asking them to re-attend training.

on top of what proportion of the judges are CBJs, what if KCBS reported what the average number of events the judges have judged? the further the average is from 1, the more confidence that could be placed in the judges for that event. this might make it a little more clear, as 100% CBJ doesn't seem to mean all that much. just a thought :idea:

Buster Dog BBQ
04-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Seems like a stupid risk for that team to continue using it and jeopardizing getting DQ'd in each category. Lot of money out the door for DQ.

Brewmaster
04-28-2010, 09:25 PM
Seems like a stupid risk for that team to continue using it and jeopardizing getting DQ'd in each category. Lot of money out the door for DQ.

You are correct, but he (CBJ Judge) did not realize it was illegal until he got his fist DQ after 6 prior turn-ins. Needless to say, his brisket turn-in did not have any kale in it.

BBQ_Mayor
04-29-2010, 06:50 AM
Maybe it's just that the judges are really doing their job and that is judging the meat and not the garnish. I hear judges all the time saying they really don't notice the garnish......maybe it's true? So it got past all those judges till they came across that one judge that pays attention to the garnish. Just sayin'

Lion Bout The Q
04-29-2010, 07:00 AM
I just went through Mike Lake's CBJ class this past weekend, and probably 90% of the class time was spent on how to judge the meat. There was a small portion devoted to illegal garnish, but examples of what each illegal garnish looked like was not provided.
I took my cbj class from Mike too, several years ago, and there were no examples of illegal garnish except in one turn in box they slipped in a small piece of red tipped parsley?

Brewmaster
04-29-2010, 07:13 AM
Maybe it's just that the judges are really doing their job and that is judging the meat and not the garnish. I hear judges all the time saying they really don't notice the garnish......maybe it's true? So it got past all those judges till they came across that one judge that pays attention to the garnish. Just sayin'

I didn't think of it that way, and I respect your point of view. But you still have 6 table captains not judging the box that should be looking for marking and illegal garnish among other things. Maybe I'm wrong but I don' think the table captains are there to be one of Barker's Beauties.

scoutguy74
04-29-2010, 07:31 AM
I'm not trying to say what he did wasn't wrong but from what I read in rule #12 he should have just received a 1 for appearance with no other penalties.

Brewmaster
04-29-2010, 07:40 AM
I'm not trying to say what he did wasn't wrong but from what I read in rule #12 he should have just received a 1 for appearance with no other penalties.

You are correct. He did.

roksmith
04-29-2010, 07:41 AM
The proper way to judge a box is to first judge the box completely on appearance assuming it to be a legal entry, write down the score, then if they believe it to be an illegal entry, they bring it to the attention of the table captain, then the table captain takes it to the rep and the rep makes the determination on legality.
The problem is, when judges look for illegal boxes and they see something they think might be illegal, they tend to score down. If they are wrong, then the cook can suffer for a judge's mistake.
Now.. as to why a CBJ was using an illegal garnish when the rules are very specific on what you can and cannot use is completely beyond me.
It's a simple thing..just dont do it.

Lake Dogs
04-29-2010, 09:15 AM
Ouch. I'd be ticked off too. Obviously a two-fold problem. First, judges & training
and execution. It seems that KCBS doesn't consistently do a thorough job of training
judges (based upon readings, etc). This needs to be addressed. Whether it's
more train-the-trainer sessions, requiring judging multiple events after training before
they become CBJ's (ala. MBN), tracking CBJ's scorings, whatever. Something (probably
a number of things) needs to be done to address this. And then, the second part of the problem is the garnish itself, but that's a long dead horse...

Pondering: What's the point of having rules if they're not enforced, consistently?

Scottie
04-29-2010, 09:29 AM
I took my cbj class from Mike too, several years ago, and there were no examples of illegal garnish except in one turn in box they slipped in a small piece of red tipped parsley?


I've worked the back of the house for a few of these CBJ classes with Mike and Theresa. they do a red tipped lettuce for the class. I think it would be nearly impossible to do a box for each illegal greens that we could use. Now if they held up a piece of kale or red tipped might be something that they could add to the class. I'll give that one to Mike and probably duck and run after suggesting it to him...

KC_Bobby
04-29-2010, 09:40 AM
I helped in a class once too, not positive but I thought a script was to be followed as far as box prep. Example - 2nd box of chicken would have red tip, 3rd box of ribs would be short 6 samples, 3th box of pork would have sauce pooling, etc.

Back to the point - I don't know if I fault the judges for not noticing. I do fault the table capt, I feel it's the table captions job to notice. But that's where it gets confusing, does the TC go to the rep prior to showing the judges or after if a judge calls it out?

CivilWarBBQ
04-29-2010, 09:50 AM
That is correct. To ensure that every CBJ receives the same training, very specific sample boxes are prepared for each class according to KCBS specifications. It isn't possible to cover all the possible DQ scenarios, but illegal garnish is discussed and demonstrated.

Any CBJ who would use kale as a cook needs to be recertified, as they obviously did not absorb the rules information the first time around. There is no cost for a CBJ to re-take the judging class.

ModelMaker
04-29-2010, 10:15 AM
A TC should at the pre-judging conversation with the judges tell them what he expects of them as far as clean up, restock etc. He should also take a few minutes and explain how he wants certain things handled, bottles on the side, no talking at his table until all cards in etc. He should also reinforce some common rule senarios, foreign objects, smears inside box tops etc. One thing that should be repeated at every table is that the very first thing the judge should do is to score that entry as it is presented, don't look for six pieces,garnish,any violation. After all scores have been recorded then ask your questions.
A perfect entry deserving a 9 with kale as garnish should be scored a 9 until all scores are entered and only then be given a 1 on direction of the rep after he is contacted by the TC.
Just as a side note, how many of you are 100% positive you could spot the difference between kale and curly leaf lettuce with meat piled all over it?
Ed

C Rocke
04-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Tough either way. Teams have placed well turning in spares instead of baby backs at a rib contest with both categories (Honest mistake). Just a lot of moving parts on this one...

pahutchens
04-29-2010, 11:45 AM
I think this provides a great learning experience, if used. we can't change the past but we can create a better future.
When I took my CBJ with Mike Lake a month ago they slipped in red tipped lettuce for the learning moment. Looked like plain old leaf lettuce to me with slightly darker tips.

do the TC classes cover these better?
I'm still waiting to do my first judging so take my thoughts as a new CBJ (shiny)

gmholler
04-29-2010, 01:44 PM
It appears that many cookers are under the impression that a table captain is there as some figure of authority, that TCs can make some determination or rule on something. They can not. Only the rep has that authority. Table captains are essentially contest waitstaff and are subject to what the rep(s) say. As a TC, I have been told at most contests to show no emotion whatsoever to the judges, regardless of whether what I am presenting looks absolutely delicious or like the contents of a can of Alpo.

Lynn H.

ModelMaker
04-29-2010, 05:00 PM
It appears that many cookers are under the impression that a table captain is there as some figure of authority, that TCs can make some determination or rule on something. They can not. Only the rep has that authority. Table captains are essentially contest waitstaff and are subject to what the rep(s) say. As a TC, I have been told at most contests to show no emotion whatsoever to the judges, regardless of whether what I am presenting looks absolutely delicious or like the contents of a can of Alpo.

Lynn H.

I disagree, a table captain is in authority over his table.
It is his responsability to make sure his table follows the rules set up by KCBS. He is the important link between the rep and the judges.
No, he cannot authorize a DQ or a 1 score but he alone is in charge of how that table follows the rules as he reports to the KCBS REP.
Ed

pinehollow
04-29-2010, 05:14 PM
I am a new judge and have only judged one contest. The class I took did go over garnish and did an example of an illegal garnish, but did not focus on it. It was very focused on judging the meat.

My understanding that judging appearance was the appearance of the meat. At the class and my first contest, I put into practice to really focus on looking at the meat, all I see around it is some green stuff. I guess if it really happened to catch my eye I would bring it up to the TC after scoring the entry. I'm focusing on the effort the team has put into the meat and really trying to ignore the garnish.

If this is the same approach that a lot of other judges have, that may explain how they got away with it for so long.

Am I wrong in my approach?

Still can't figure out why on earth they would take that risk, seems foolish.

From a team perspective, would you rather a judge put more focus on the greens purely for the possibility to catch the wrong garnish since we are not supposed to be judging it anyway?

stlgreg
04-29-2010, 06:21 PM
Nate,
I understand your frustration. Nothing makes more aggravated than judges that arent doing what they are supposed to be doing. I didnt talk to the team about it but i know who you are talking about. I thought he knew better than that. He took it REALLY hard so I really dont know what he was thinking.

I was cleaning boxes this past weekend and i never saw any other kale come through.
I did see red tipped lettuce come through on chicken. It was on the bottom of the box under the meat. I alerted the reps and we did keep an eye out the rest of judging.

We had some real experienced table captains and i dont know how they missed the kale the first two times.

We had two DQs this past weekend and both teams said the same thing. They did it last week at (retracted). Earlier this week, I alerted the KCBS office to that fact.

I am glad the judges i had caught both. The other DQ was a team including boneless rib meat with their six rib bones. I guess we had a third when one team turned in five ribs but that was an easy one to catch.

The only thing i can do from my end is keep watching judges where i go and not allow judges that are not doing things right to come to my contest. If necessary, i will let other contest organizers know as well.

I will be putting on a class sometime in the summer and yes current CBJs can audit any class for free. In this instance, i dont know if i want a lot of CBJs to show up or not. I need to at least break even on the class, but if any judge wants to show up I will welcome them with open arms.

Brewmaster
04-29-2010, 08:53 PM
Greg,

I appreciate your post and I hope you understand this is not meant to be directed at you. The objective of this thread and the reason for posting it is to get other people's thoughts on the situation, and discuss if there really is a problem. Do we need to make some changes? Do we need to track judges better? I don't have the answers but I thought from what I observed it might be a good topic of conversation. Again, I hope you don't take this to be a personal attack against your hard work as an organizer.

Nate

stlgreg
04-29-2010, 09:11 PM
i didnt take it personal at all.

you know we may have an issue here. I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?

the more i have thought about i learned because i wanted to know after the class. I went to the store and made sure i knew. how many other people have done that? Actually the first time i went to the store it was mismarked so it took me longer to learn what it was.

Do they learn when someone else catches some at the table?

gmholler
04-30-2010, 08:21 AM
And what is the reason behind the kale prohibition, anyway? I don't see that green sold around here much to start with, so I can't say if it causes a certain problem with meat or something.

Lynn H.

Capn Kev
04-30-2010, 09:13 AM
This is pretty surprising, considering they spend more time in a CBJ class teaching them how to identify illegal garnish than they do teaching how to properly judge the meat.


^^^^^ I totally agree.

BRBBQ
04-30-2010, 09:06 PM
Those two garnish's should stand out like a sore thumb.

BBQchef33
04-30-2010, 09:42 PM
KCBS should take some lessons from the FBA, not sure if I am correct on this but I do believe the FBA also tracks judges as well

FBA Judge Requirements


Maintain an active FBA Membership.
Judge a minimum of one FBA sanctioned contest every 12 months. (note: failure to achieve this requirement means you will have to attend an FBA Judge's Training Seminar prior to judging again.)
Be present for the Judges Briefing at any contest your are confirmed to judge. Failure to be present means that you will not judge that contest. Check-in for judges starts at 9am on the day of the contest and ends at 9:30am. The Judges Briefing begins at 9:30am, followed by the Table Captains Briefing.
If you fail to show for three contests that you are confirmed to judge without notifying either the Organizer or one of the Reps, you will be removed from the list of judges for future contests.
Judge all four categories at any contest you are seated at for judging.
During the contest, you are not allowed to visit with the cook teams. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the judging that day.
After the contest, you may visit with the cook teams, however you may not discuss any part of the judging including your scores. Doing so will cause you to be removed from the list of judges for future contests.



uh uh.... The list. :thumb::becky:

SmokinOkie
05-03-2010, 09:19 AM
... I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?


Someone had to buy it and should know what's legal/illegal.

As for training of reps, give an email to KCBS about this. If he wasn't trained on illegal, then that wasn't normal. KCBS actually has a set manual for building boxes and every time I've done the cook for a contest class, KALE was in the instructions. As well as red tipped and cilantro.

He knows the rules now, he needs to move on.

For me, it's interesting to see classes teaching more about scoring then illegal. We do have experienced judges (usually 1 or more) at each table and they certainly know. Table Captains should be looking for illegal entries, but they aren't always experienced TC's.

CritterCook
05-03-2010, 03:33 PM
It's things like this and general erratic judging that has kinda soured me on competing. Good post Nate.

bigabyte
05-03-2010, 04:14 PM
I was talking to my neighbor and he doesnt know what kale is. So if normal people dont know what kale is and normal people take the CBJ class then how do they learn what kale is?
Each class is different of course, but Ed Roith did a CBJ class here in Overland Park yesterday and he handed out samples of parsley and endive to each and every table to people could get a good view of it. Also, two of the judging boxes used at each table during the class had illegal garnish to allow people to catch it. Again, not all classes are the same, but at this one the CBJ's were definitely shown the difference and given chances to spot it.

Spydermike72
05-03-2010, 07:29 PM
While I see your frustration with the situation, the party that got caught should have known better. You have to actually go and buy the stuff, and if he is a CBJ and done more than 1 comp he knows the rules. I would be more peeved at someone trying to get over (not that using kale would give anyone a distinct advantage) than a CBJ not catching the problem...


I was at a contest recently and the team next to me was disqualified on their pork entry. Later after the contest I talked to the team members about the reason they were disqualified. They proceeded to tell me it was for using kale and endives. So I asked them if they used kale and endives on their chicken and rib entry. They said they did, and not only at this contest. They used kale and endives on all four categories at a previous contest. At that point I was getting frustrated because his previous contest was the same contest I competed in. So I looked up the results and they placed in the top ten in one category. Not that it made a huge difference in the outcome of the contest but the fact that this got past six table captains and thirty-six judges before getting caught is what disturbed me. But the worst part of the whole situation was that he told me he was a CBJ himself. Now I could see a situation where the rules were kind of vague or a little gray, but this rule is spelled out in black and white. At what point do they take away someone’s CBJ status? What other rules are being broken and missed? I want to say I am very disappointed in a system that I spend a lot of time and money involved in.
Nate
CBJ# 21746

stlgreg
05-03-2010, 07:58 PM
Someone had to buy it and should know what's legal/illegal.

As for training of reps, give an email to KCBS about this. If he wasn't trained on illegal, then that wasn't normal. KCBS actually has a set manual for building boxes and every time I've done the cook for a contest class, KALE was in the instructions. As well as red tipped and cilantro.

He knows the rules now, he needs to move on.

For me, it's interesting to see classes teaching more about scoring then illegal. We do have experienced judges (usually 1 or more) at each table and they certainly know. Table Captains should be looking for illegal entries, but they aren't always experienced TC's.

I have seen some stores where it is mismarked on more than one occasion. I have also found i cannot trust the stock people in the produce section. They really dont know what they are doing.