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View Full Version : Conclusion from these Rib Scores


G$
04-14-2010, 09:55 AM
I was able to cut 6 nice ribs from the center of one rack last weekend, and turned them in for judging. (No pictures - we were short handed). The taste from the rack was 'OK', and not a change from what we typically do, they looked very nice, and in my opinion were cooked just about perfect.

Here are the scores. What can I conclude?

JUDGE 1 JUDGE 2 JUDGE 3 JUDGE 4 JUDGE 5 JUDGE 6
9 8 8 - 9 9 9 - 7 8 8 - 8 5 8 - 8 5 6 - 8 7 8

Alexa RnQ
04-14-2010, 10:03 AM
With taste being the heaviest weighted score, having more than one 5 will kill you dead. Is there an "elbow" in your flavor profile -- is there one element that sticks out, out of balance with the others?

JohnJ
04-14-2010, 10:13 AM
New judge maybe? Too salty possibly?

G$
04-14-2010, 10:15 AM
With taste being the heaviest weighted score, having more than one 5 will kill you dead. Is there an "elbow" in your flavor profile -- is there one element that sticks out, out of balance with the others?

Not knowingly. I don't perceive them to have any overtly strong flavor component.

In fact, if you asked what would need to be changed on taste, I'd probably say I need to add an "elbow" - that our tast may lack some pop in some form (probably sweetness).

I could accept two 5s is all the rest of the scores were marginal. Maybe they are.

I could also accept all marginal scores if indeed the lack of zing is an issue. But having a 8,9,8 to go with a pair of 5s stumps me a little. And since one of those 5s came from a judge also delivering a 6 on texture, when the ribs seemed spot on, makes me scratch my head more.

Here is the frustration, and probably my own answer: We have always cooked our ribs the same way, from the beginning, with no intentional changes to the method. Our first 3 contests, I believe we got three consecutive top 5s. It clearly is no longer working now, and has not been for quite some time. It is time to change.

nthole
04-14-2010, 10:21 AM
3 judges that are cookers and understanding cooking, 2 judges that don't?

It would be nice if KCBS was actually watching for judges like this and recording scores judges turn in that seem outside of the norm for a table and question the judges if trends appear.

Alexa RnQ
04-14-2010, 10:24 AM
That's the sore spot. When you realize that they're not going over like they were, it's time to go back to the drawing board. You can take cold comfort in the fact that as soon as you get the ribs "fixed", one of your other meats will go south on you. http://www.divaherself.com/crylaugh.gif

I also think that we should just crown Lisa as the Permanent Rib Queen and not let her play anymore. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

G$
04-14-2010, 10:25 AM
I also think that we should just crown Lisa as the Permanent Rib Queen and not let her play anymore. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

Easy for you to say! You can afford to let someone else win a category here and there!

Lake Dogs
04-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Wow, that's a big variance. BIG. I dont quite know what to make of it either. You're
right, perhaps need an elbow, but that's a double edged sword. Mind you, this comes
from someone who enjoys judging, cooks, and competes with a mildy spicy and mildly sweet flavor base. Even then, mine can be too spicy or too sweet for some. 9 to 5,
damn.

A while back, having judged and competed in different comps, I really became a fan
of MIM/MBN's scoring. I'm not a fan of any that use a 1-10 (or 1-9) scoring system
because of numeric variance. Meaning, I'm not a fan because a few 5's (not that
it's ever happened) in with a series of 8's will kill you. MBN doesn't have that. 7
if it's a spitter, 8 is plain non good, 9 is good, and 10 is great. All 9's doesnt get
you demolished. An 8 in the mix doesnt kill terribly, but isn't good.

One 10 in the mix overcomes an 8 scored. However, in the large variation scoring
systems it takes a lot of 9's and 10's to overcome a 5 or 6...

Oh well, no need to suggest replacing a scoring system, right?

Desertdog
04-14-2010, 12:59 PM
3 judges that are cookers and understanding cooking, 2 judges that don't?

It would be nice if KCBS was actually watching for judges like this and recording scores judges turn in that seem outside of the norm for a table and question the judges if trends appear.


I think KCBS should REQUIRE a comment card from the judge for any score lower than a 6. Having them have to explain themselves might just make them think a bit more about if the taste really is waaay below average and why.

We had a great P-Pork this weekend that finished 7th, but one judge in the group gave it a 4 on taste and a 5 on tenderness. :crazy: Obviously the other judges at the table did not think the same way:

745-988-798-988-799-979

Candy Sue
04-14-2010, 01:31 PM
I have a problem with requiring or even firmly requesting comment cards of judges! No offense but people are lazy...if a judge knows they'll have to do a comment score if they give a 5 or lower, they won't give a 5 or lower. Then we might as well be back in the 9-8-7 scoring days with multitudenous "perfect" scores.

With that said, I feel your pain. Last weekend, I scored 2nd in peoples choice pork, but 30th out of 36 in pork at the contest. I thought my contest pork was better than the judges did. I'm not changing a thing I do in Lula this weekend either.

Scottie
04-14-2010, 01:47 PM
I am glad that you think that way Candy. I agree with it. While it is painful as a cook to think that someone judged your meat less than average... It is all subjective folks. But to narrow the scoring down to how it used to be is not the answer either.

I think my brisket was on the same table as your pork Candy... :roll: Didn't you win Butt-to-Butt a couple of years ago? Isn't that like the best pork cooks cooking? Yeah, there were some strange scores. :confused:
On a good note. It was great seeing you last weekend.

I have a problem with requiring or even firmly requesting comment cards of judges! No offense but people are lazy...if a judge knows they'll have to do a comment score if they give a 5 or lower, they won't give a 5 or lower. Then we might as well be back in the 9-8-7 scoring days with multitudenous "perfect" scores.

With that said, I feel your pain. Last weekend, I scored 2nd in peoples choice pork, but 30th out of 36 in pork at the contest. I thought my contest pork was better than the judges did. I'm not changing a thing I do in Lula this weekend either.

ModelMaker
04-14-2010, 01:50 PM
As a rule of thumb any time there is a swing of more than 2 points between the table in any score catagory the table captain should show it to the rep and the rep should ask why such a difference. If the judge has a legitimate reason for scoring out of the majority fine. It is his/her opinion and shall be encouraged. If on the other hand he/she says something that has no relevance they should be taken aside and have an on the spot judging class.
I'm sure there is a rep advisory handling this but do not know exactly what is is.
Any reps want to weigh in on this? Merl, Linda????
Ed

I think Candy Sue is 100% correct if you mandate a comment card for any given number you will not see that number on a score sheet again.

Lake Dogs
04-14-2010, 02:35 PM
> I think Candy Sue is 100% correct if you mandate a comment card for
> any given number you will not see that number on a score sheet again.

Agreed. Reps, variance at a table, any comments?

Looking at what I'd typed earlier, and with Candy's comments, MBN has that
damned finals 2nd round thing that is frankly a pain in the butt. The first round
is about getting off of the table into finals. Changing variance would either have
the top 5 or 6 (in KCBS or others) use tiebreaker or have to go to a 2nd judging;
either way sucks... I guess it's part of it; the bad with the good. Would like
to see how you can get 9's, 8's, and 7's, then 5's... all in the same category.

Just pondering: Should every judge, regardless of score, jot down what they
thought? If it's the norm... I dont know... Scottie, dare I type it, is at the crux
of it; it's subjective, and on any given day....

Smitty250
04-14-2010, 03:56 PM
Please excuse my ignorance but what is an "elbow"?

Thanks,

Smitty
Loot N' Booty BBQ

Alexa RnQ
04-14-2010, 04:09 PM
Smitty, it's something that "sticks out". Usually you'd like a little heat, a little sweet, nothing out of balance or oddly spiced to upset a judge's palate.

Smitty250
04-14-2010, 04:16 PM
OK - Thanks Alexa.

Desertdog
04-14-2010, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=ModelMaker;1250263]As a rule of thumb any time there is a swing of more than 2 points between the table in any score catagory the table captain should show it to the rep and the rep should ask why such a difference. If the judge has a legitimate reason for scoring out of the majority fine. It is his/her opinion and shall be encouraged. If on the other hand he/she says something that has no relevance they should be taken aside and have an on the spot judging class.
QUOTE]

I heard of a judge just recently at a contest gave a 4 on pork. He was questioned by the rep and the reason given was because he/she said that it didn't look like there was enough there for 6 people.

Play with that one for a while....with all other entries it is quite clear, is there six identifiable pieces or not?

With Pulled Pork, what if everyone takes a healthy portion and there is nothing left for the last judge?

Does the judge give the taste-tenderness a 1 as they would for a rib/chicken/brisket if the first five judges were "greedy?"

Can you give a 4 (or 1 for that matter) on appearance because you THINK there might not be enough to go around?

:confused:

Bunny
04-14-2010, 05:07 PM
3 judges that are cookers and understanding cooking, 2 judges that don't?

It would be nice if KCBS was actually watching for judges like this and recording scores judges turn in that seem outside of the norm for a table and question the judges if trends appear.

It would be great if they would put a spot on the judgin card if the judge also has a current cooking team. Just for the record..:roll:

Bunny
04-14-2010, 05:13 PM
I think KCBS should REQUIRE a comment card from the judge for any score lower than a 6. Having them have to explain themselves might just make them think a bit more about if the taste really is waaay below average and why.

We had a great P-Pork this weekend that finished 7th, but one judge in the group gave it a 4 on taste and a 5 on tenderness. :crazy: Obviously the other judges at the table did not think the same way:

745-988-798-988-799-979
Whoa! As a rep (and usually running the computer) I would have caught that variance and ask that judge why. And as far as requiring a comment card..what do you do with one that comments about a pork rib: "Taste too much like pork!"? :shock: :shock:

whodeyQ
04-14-2010, 05:17 PM
If you found out what would turn the fives into eights or nines, wouldn't that bring your eights and nines down to fives?

I'm going to find out first hand about judging this month, I'm taking a class. :shock:

Smokin' Joe
04-14-2010, 05:20 PM
It would be great if they would put a spot on the judgin card if the judge also has a current cooking team. Just for the record..:roll:

In 2009 we cooked at two contests that I knew had multiple cooks in the judges tent, both times the score sheets looked like they were throwing darts, I spoke with a couple of the cooks-turned-judges at each event and in each case they werent impressed with the food that came across the table. In my simple mind I have made the connection (right or wrong:icon_blush:). Cooks make for low scores:tape:

Bunny
04-14-2010, 05:25 PM
[QUOTE=ModelMaker;1250263]As a rule of thumb any time there is a swing of more than 2 points between the table in any score catagory the table captain should show it to the rep and the rep should ask why such a difference. If the judge has a legitimate reason for scoring out of the majority fine. It is his/her opinion and shall be encouraged. If on the other hand he/she says something that has no relevance they should be taken aside and have an on the spot judging class.
QUOTE]

I heard of a judge just recently at a contest gave a 4 on pork. He was questioned by the rep and the reason given was because he/she said that it didn't look like there was enough there for 6 people.

Play with that one for a while....with all other entries it is quite clear, is there six identifiable pieces or not?

With Pulled Pork, what if everyone takes a healthy portion and there is nothing left for the last judge?

Does the judge give the taste-tenderness a 1 as they would for a rib/chicken/brisket if the first five judges were "greedy?"

Can you give a 4 (or 1 for that matter) on appearance because you THINK there might not be enough to go around?

:confused:

WOW! I'm totally freakin out here. Maybe it's what you heard, but if that really happened then shame on the rep for letting it happen. You can't do that and it should have been communicated to that judge that you can't do that. And...if that hefty eater didn't leave any pulled pork for the last judge? Well, I'd have to kindly ask him to put some back to give to the last judge. This has only happened maybe once since 1987 that I asked a judge to please put a rib back (6 entered) so the last judge could have a piece. That is not a cook's fault, but the fault of a judge. So therefore a cooker would NOT be penalized because of one judge who didn't fully understand the rules.

And in support of the judges, most judges are incredibly courteous and obey and understand the rules. Table Captains are a Godsend and usually notice all of these details that are being discussed. It's very rare that I ever hear of that occurance.

Hope this helps relieve many cooker's minds.:drama:

Bunny
04-14-2010, 05:28 PM
In 2009 we cooked at two contests that I knew had multiple cooks in the judges tent, both times the score sheets looked like they were throwing darts, I spoke with a couple of the cooks-turned-judges at each event and in each case they werent impressed with the food that came across the table. In my simple mind I have made the connection (right or wrong:icon_blush:). Cooks make for low scores:tape:

You got that right!! But I think they are honest, just tough.:boxing:

Coz
04-14-2010, 05:29 PM
In 2009 we cooked at two contests that I knew had multiple cooks in the judges tent, both times the score sheets looked like they were throwing darts, I spoke with a couple of the cooks-turned-judges at each event and in each case they werent impressed with the food that came across the table. In my simple mind I have made the connection (right or wrong:icon_blush:). Cooks make for low scores:tape:

I bet I judged at one of those two :boxing: I had asked the Table Captain if my scores were much off what the other judges had scored and he said other then one of the chicken entries I was right with the others.We had a bunch of experienced judges at our table .The chicken I was out of line with had burnt skin.I took a bite with the skin on then rinsed my mouth and tried the chicken with out the skin.It was way better then my average chicken when you did it without the skin.My score must have been higher then the rest. But I would agree that with cooks judging you most likely get lower scores.Not that I have judged or competd that much to know.

Bunny
04-14-2010, 05:34 PM
I bet I judged at one of those two :boxing: I had asked the Table Captain if my scores were much off what the other judges had scored and he said other then one of the chicken entries I was right with the others.We had a bunch of experienced judges at our table .The chicken I was out of line with had burnt skin.I took a bite with the skin on then rinsed my mouth and tried the chicken with out the skin.It was way better then my average chicken when you did it without the skin.My score must have been higher then the rest. But I would agree that with cooks judging you most likely get lower scores.Not that I have judged or competd that much to know.

You are a nice guy. Because the cooker turned it in with burnt skin and you actually spit it out would have given me reason to lower the score. But you were kind, like many judges. You gave the cooker the higher score without the skin.

But a cooker tasting that would have scored it lower because they never would have turned it in with that burnt skin and they feel like the cooker should know better. I think that's why cookers are tougher judges. They know what a cooker needs to produce at a cookoff

Coz
04-14-2010, 05:47 PM
You are a nice guy. Because the cooker turned it in with burnt skin and you actually spit it out would have given me reason to lower the score. But you were kind, like many judges. You gave the cooker the higher score without the skin.

But a cooker tasting that would have scored it lower because they never would have turned it in with that burnt skin and they feel like the cooker should know better. I think that's why cookers are tougher judges. They know what a cooker needs to produce at a cookoff

Bunny I think I gave it a 6 because the chicken was very good with out the skin what I did come away with from that is if my skin is nasty I will sauce the crap out of the chicken and leave the skin off. I do consider myself a cooker although I dont have the amount of contests under my belt that most of these folks have. In our class Mike said when possible give the benefit of doubt to the cook.

Smokin' Joe
04-14-2010, 06:25 PM
I bet I judged at one of those two :boxing: I had asked the Table Captain if my scores were much off what the other judges had scored and he said other then one of the chicken entries I was right with the others.We had a bunch of experienced judges at our table .The chicken I was out of line with had burnt skin.I took a bite with the skin on then rinsed my mouth and tried the chicken with out the skin.It was way better then my average chicken when you did it without the skin.My score must have been higher then the rest. But I would agree that with cooks judging you most likely get lower scores.Not that I have judged or competd that much to know.

maybe:redface: See I said I probably had it wrong, glad I did in your case:thumb: I was just looking for my score sheet from Libertyville, but it was crazy wild all over the place. Guess I will have to chalk it up to something else:-D

Coz
04-14-2010, 08:29 PM
maybe:redface: See I said I probably had it wrong, glad I did in your case:thumb: I was just looking for my score sheet from Libertyville, but it was crazy wild all over the place. Guess I will have to chalk it up to something else:-D


Thats were I was figurin.One of the gals at our table had high 20s for the amount of contests judged and as we talked after each category most of what she said I had to agree with.I believe other then myself every one at our table had judged at least 5 times with more judging more then that.See ya at the Dells

Crash
04-14-2010, 11:37 PM
I was able to cut 6 nice ribs from the center of one rack last weekend, and turned them in for judging. (No pictures - we were short handed). The taste from the rack was 'OK', and not a change from what we typically do, they looked very nice, and in my opinion were cooked just about perfect.

Here are the scores. What can I conclude?

JUDGE 1 JUDGE 2 JUDGE 3 JUDGE 4 JUDGE 5 JUDGE 6
9 8 8 - 9 9 9 - 7 8 8 - 8 5 8 - 8 5 6 - 8 7 8

I think you can conclude that judging BBQ is a fickle job. It's amazing how the same table can have judges that are so far off, but that's just the game we play.

I know you've heard it before, but you have to be good at what you do AND hit a consistent table. It is what it is my friend.

See you guys in a few weeks.

Crash
04-14-2010, 11:43 PM
That's the sore spot. When you realize that they're not going over like they were, it's time to go back to the drawing board. You can take cold comfort in the fact that as soon as you get the ribs "fixed", one of your other meats will go south on you. http://www.divaherself.com/crylaugh.gif

I also think that we should just crown Lisa as the Permanent Rib Queen and not let her play anymore. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

We hear you on the "fixing" one meat while the other goes south. We just lived that exact quote this past weekend.

I sure am glad that that Lisa girl is on my team. Hell, I taught her everything I know. :rolleyes:

G$
04-15-2010, 09:07 AM
I think you can conclude that judging BBQ is a fickle job. It's amazing how the same table can have judges that are so far off, but that's just the game we play.

I know you've heard it before, but you have to be good at what you do AND hit a consistent table. It is what it is my friend.

I looked at the overalls for Scottsdale vs. LH, and the judging in Scottsdale was consistently lower. Of course, this is a moot point, as the judging is applied to everybody there, but it still is interesting to look at:

Overall Havasu Scottsdale
GC _____674.2 ____666.2
10th____645.1 ____632.5
20th ___634.9 ____621.7
30th ___625.1 ____606.3

See you guys in a few weeks.
I'll take solace in not getting to look at my scores for my ribs in that one. :-P (IBCA)