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tmcmaster
04-09-2010, 03:12 PM
As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...

1 - When judging appearence, how much does.should garnish or lack of weigh in your score? Does it or could it be looked up as a 'marked box' if no garnish is there?

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?

3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?

I will post others if anyone is so kind as to answer these for a newb.

Thanks!
:thumb:

Stoke&Smoke
04-09-2010, 03:29 PM
As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...

1 - When judging appearence, how much does.should garnish or lack of weigh in your score? Does it or could it be looked up as a 'marked box' if no garnish is there? KCBS does not require garnish, so no, it wouldn't be a marked box if no garnish. If the use of garnish makes the meat look more appealing, judge appropriately. Same as if it's sloppy or haphazard. Remember though, it's a meat contest, not a greens contest!

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?
It could. Overcooked brisket will likely be dried out, and also may not hold together. Your class intructor probably made mention of a pull test. Also, remember, the classes all recommend pencil thickness, but it isn't' a requirement. If it's sliced thicker, it could mean it's overcooked and the team is trying to keep it from falling apart, or it could just be a thick slice. Let your tastebuds tell you. Same with undercooked, If it's paper thin, it might be because it's undercooked

3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?

Yes, sometimes. There needs to be 1 judge per team cooking, so sometimes a table will have fewer than 6 judges

I will post others if anyone is so kind as to answer these for a newb.

Thanks!
:thumb:

Just a personal opinion, but, to be a better judge, see if you can talk a local team in your area to let you cook with them. Send a weekend seeing what they do, what they go through, and learn what all has to be done by cooks. It will bring you a better level of understanding the whole process.

Have fun judging!

CivilWarBBQ
04-09-2010, 05:05 PM
I have to correct the above poster. There is NEVER an instance where there will be more or less than 6 judges at a table. The number of entries that reach a table may vary, but never the number of judges scoring an entry. If the number of scores received by a team were allowed to change there would be no way to evaluate the scores and fairly select a winner under the KCBS system.

Meat Burner
04-09-2010, 05:18 PM
I absolutely disagree with you Civil. I have judged at contests that didn't have enough for 6 entries at all tables and only 5 judges participated. Never will be more that 6 but definately can be 5 judges.

CivilWarBBQ
04-09-2010, 05:33 PM
These were KCBS sanctioned events? I'd like to know exactly where and when these contests occurred and who was repping them. Please explain to me how scores can be compared when Team A receives scores from 5 judges and Team B receives scores from 6 judges?

It is not uncommon for a table to get 5 or 7 entries as the number of teams to tables doesn't always divide evenly. The only problem this poses is some judges may have more or less to eat than expected. Having an entry receive marks by less than six judges however breaks the scoring system. In that situation you employ table captains, volunteers or recruit folks from the public to judge, but entries should never be receiving only 5 scores in a KCBS sanctioned event.

ModelMaker
04-09-2010, 05:40 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a table that wasn't 6 judges, but have been at tables that had less than six samples per catagory.

Tim, it's good to ask questions, and remember other than the printed rule it is best to write down a question and personnaly ask the KCBS rep in charge at any given contest. Not that you won't get a correct answer here but the only true answer every time is from the rep.
Good luck in your judging this summer and thanks for stepping up and volenteering.
Ed

CivilWarBBQ
04-09-2010, 05:40 PM
For clarification, from the KCBS 2010 Official Rules, Judging Procedures Rule #2:

Judging will be done by a team of 6 persons, who are at least 16 years of age.

monty3777
04-09-2010, 06:02 PM
2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?


This is one issue that I feel strongly about so I'll comment. I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is. I know that someone somewhere decided that a slice of brisket must be the width of a pencil - and that's what I'll give the judges. However, I think that the determination of whether or not brisket is properly cooked can only come from tasting it and checking the texture. If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

Meat Burner
04-09-2010, 06:37 PM
I no longer absolutely disagree:redface: We were only given 5 samples to judge and all 6 judges got 5 samples. I took toothpics and mocked boxes and judges scorecards and then realized I was absolutely wrong. My bad. Civil is correct :clap2:so please listen to him and delete my responses.

CivilWarBBQ
04-09-2010, 06:42 PM
No worries man. Everybody makes a mistake from time to time (my two ex-wives prove I sure do!) Please don't take my response as jumping on you - I was just shocked to think a Rep would allow this to happen and didn't want a new CBJ to start out with a misconception.

Meat Burner
04-09-2010, 06:46 PM
It fine Civil. Didn't take it wrong at all. Just a brother helping another brother! Appreciate ya!

Rookie'48
04-09-2010, 10:22 PM
I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is..... If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

I feel that we are supposed to judge each entry "as presented by the cook". For the appearance scoring the judges should only be judging the appearance of the meat, not speculating on why it was presented that way. For myself, a 9 in appearance means that I want to rip that box out of the TC's hands & dig right in. I grade down from there.
On everything but ribs you can turn in chopped, pulled, sliced - whatever you feel is your best shot. I'm going to judge you on what is in the box, not what I wish was there. Then again, I'm kinda strange that way. YMMV

Mo-Dave
04-10-2010, 07:37 AM
This is one issue that I feel strongly about so I'll comment. I think judges must do their absolute best to not "guess" why something is presented the way it is. I know that someone somewhere decided that a slice of brisket must be the width of a pencil - and that's what I'll give the judges. However, I think that the determination of whether or not brisket is properly cooked can only come from tasting it and checking the texture. If a judge is already judging whether the brisket is over/under cooked at the appearance stage of judging the cook is already screwed.

If the cook wishes to present pulled or chopped brisket then perhaps that's because it is a better product when served that way. Won't know until you taste it.

(getting off my soapbox).

ATTENTION TMCMASTER AND ANYONE ELSE THAT JUDGE. Please read this post and memorize it completely, it should be every ones guide and montra for the proper mind set of a CBJ. And one more thing, if the entry has a lot of sauce don't just assume the cook was trying to hide something that statement is got to be one of the most aggravating and common statements made and should be grounds for a CBJs immediate dismissal but thats just me.
Dave

Bbq Bubba
04-10-2010, 08:24 AM
Wondering why you left class without asking these questions?

tmcmaster
04-10-2010, 02:09 PM
Wondering why you left class without asking these questions?
I did ask. Was presented with a "That's subjective" or "KCBS doesn't have an offical criteria for that..." Also, as we were told at the beginning of the class, it was the largest CBJ class ever (thanks to BBQ :clap2: Pitmasters on TLC), so the Q and A period was very brief.

But, thanks for all the responces and help! I promise to be the best, most impartial and honest judge I can.

Q-Stream
04-10-2010, 09:21 PM
Rookie '48 makes a good point. When I took the class and the question came up about appearance scores, the instructor said "If it looks good enough that you would drive across town and pay to eat it, than that's a really good entry."

Chopped, sliced, or pulled, the only consideration should be does it look good enough so that you really look forward to that first bite.

Just my 2 cents worth.

SmokinOkie
04-11-2010, 09:13 AM
I would also suggest that the forum isn't the "official" answer. How we judge is per KCBS, not the internet.

Why do I point this out? Until the forums/judges started making chicken skin "tenderness" an issue, it was never taught by KCBS.

If you really want an answer, I'd suggest you contact the head of the rules/judging committee and ask for a written answer.

Nothing wrong with what we say, but they're just out opinions, not policy.

Ask ten judges and you'll probably get 10 variations of responses.

Russ

daedalus
04-11-2010, 10:19 AM
As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...

1 - When judging appearence, how much does.should garnish or lack of weigh in your score? Does it or could it be looked up as a 'marked box' if no garnish is there? Theoretically, garnish is not supposed to be judged because using it is optional(This should have been covered in class). The reality, however, is that a well garnished box usually just looks better than one without garnish. I judge appearance based on two main criteria.
1. How badly do I want to dive into that box
2. Does it look like real care was taken in the presentation.
To your second question, because garnish is optional, the lack of it should NEVER be considered marking.

2 - Does the texture of the brisket change so dramatically if it is pulled/chopped that it could create an illusion of properly cooked beef, if it is overcooked?
Maybe, but it is important to judge it the way it is presented as long as it is within the rules. I consider the KCBS guidlines as to what is or isn't tender(like in ribs and brisket) as an attempt to limit subjectivity as much as possible by incorporating an emperical system by which to measure. Therefore, when presented with brisket that is sliced, the pull test is valid. When presented with meat prepared in a way not specifically adressed by KCBS guidlines(like chopped brisket), but still within the rules, a judge should use their best judgement. If KCBS has an opinion as to what chopped brisket should be like, they need to include that information in their training.

3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?
No, because as others have mentioned here, it would break the scoring system. You might have the table captain pulling double duty, or each table may get more(really rare) or less(fairly common) than 6 entries, but you should never see less than 6 judges at a table in a sanctioned event.

I will post others if anyone is so kind as to answer these for a newb.

Thanks!
:thumb:

As always, these are just my humble opinions.

Merl
04-11-2010, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=tmcmaster;1245207]As a newly (like in the last 2 hours) minted CBJ, I have a few questions that I didn't think were answered by our instructor... maybe someone form the group can help a newb out...


3 - Would there ever be an instance where there were only 5 judges at a table?

There can NEVER be LESS than nor MORE than SIX judges at a table. A judge can perform duel duty and serve as judge/table captain. The scoring system is based upon six scores per table. This is mandatory in all contests.

Merl Whitebook
KCBS CBJ Instructor

Stoke&Smoke
04-12-2010, 07:55 AM
For clarification, from the KCBS 2010 Official Rules, Judging Procedures Rule #2
Judging will be done by a team of 6 persons, who are at least 16 years of age. :

I stand humbly corrected. I do remember being at a comp where, because of a judge shortage, our TC had to judge and TC as well. And I also can recall not getting a full 6 samples. However, I've never seen a case where a table got MORE than 6 samples. I'm guessing that, in the event that the number of teams in an event isnt' evenly divisible by 6, the rep tries to get however many judges extra to have en0ough tables of 6?

Sorry, only judged once or twice in the past 2 years

CivilWarBBQ
04-12-2010, 11:05 AM
Often the organizer will cut off the number of teams at a number that is divisible by six. However I've judged at a contest where we had eight entries on the table for a main meat category, and as few as four entries (ancillary dessert).

2Fat
04-12-2010, 01:57 PM
Often the organizer will cut off the number of teams at a number that is divisible by six. However I've judged at a contest where we had eight entries on the table for a main meat category, and as few as four entries (ancillary dessert).

personally would rather have 4 meats and 8 desserts--of course thats just me