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dmprantz
04-07-2010, 02:53 PM
I asked this basic question over in Q-Talk and got no responses yet, so to prevent a full thread-jack, I'm cross posting here: Are FEC-100s "legal" to use in KCBS competitions if the electric igniter isn't dissabled? Has this ever come up before? I asked if you could turn it off to ensure it did not come back on, and no one seemed to say yes. The following rule from 2009 seems to indicate that if the ignitor comes back into play while the meat is in the smoker, it's illegal.

6) Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas
and electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking
or holding. Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters,
provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking
device.

I'm really not trying to pick nits here, but FEC-100s get a LOT of traction at comps these days, and can any of the pitmasters who use them guarentee that the igniter never turns on? Does any one believe that it would not be a rules violation if it did?

Thanks,

dmp

ique
04-07-2010, 02:57 PM
I'm really not trying to pick nits here, but FEC-100s get a LOT of traction at comps these days, and can any of the pitmasters who use them guarentee that the igniter never turns on? Does any one believe that it would not be a rules violation if it did?

Thanks,

dmp

Pretty sure it is not kosher to blast your firebox with a weedburner while meats are on an off-set pit. I would think the FEC igniter is just a smaller version of that. So if we are nitpicking, yes that may be construed as illegal.

Jacked UP BBQ
04-07-2010, 03:00 PM
Maybe I should read before answering! Forget my post!

Stoke&Smoke
04-07-2010, 03:01 PM
I think the short answer is yes, they're legal. I believe it was determined that even if the ignitor came back on, it wouldn't generate enough heat to actually assist in cooking the meat.

If they weren't legal, I don't think so many folks would be openly using them.

dmprantz
04-07-2010, 03:09 PM
I'm not trying to make a bigger deal than it should be out of this, but can you provide any documentation for the "determination" mentioned above? I'm interested in how this reconciles with rule 6 stated above which appears to completely contradict it. Also, I had purposely planned on not adding an igniter to my own pellet feeder for this purpose. If I can do so, it'd be good to know!

dmp

Ron_L
04-07-2010, 03:17 PM
I'm really not trying to pick nits here, but FEC-100s get a LOT of traction at comps these days, and can any of the pitmasters who use them guarentee that the igniter never turns on? Does any one believe that it would not be a rules violation if it did?

I don't have a specific reference, but i believe Dann is correct. The board or the comp committee determined that the ignitor doesn't generate enough heat to impact the meat. However, the ignitor only comes on when the pit is started up. It doesn' randomly come on during a cook. If the FEC went out and had to be restarted, the smart thing to do would be to remove the meat to restart it, regardless of whether the ignitor coming on is legal of not. the pellets smoldering before catching would probably generate some bitter smoke anyway.

Jorge
04-07-2010, 03:21 PM
I think Ron covered it.

smknwhlswife
04-07-2010, 03:22 PM
Or just have one that the ignitor is broken.:mad: Then you don't have to worry about it. You just have to remember starter gel.:doh:

dmprantz
04-07-2010, 03:39 PM
So is the ignitor in an FEC guarenteed to only heat up when it is first turned on? If the fire does go out for some reason and then more pellets are added, will it not automatically re-ignite the new pellets? It's not that I doubt any one here, but because the rule, as written, specifically forbids this, I'd really like to see the written evidence that it doesn't apply.

Thanks!

dmp

PCDoctor_1979
04-07-2010, 03:44 PM
You could try e-mailing Karen Walker at the KCBS to get the clarification you are looking for. I don't want to post her e-mail here to get picked up by the spammers, but you can find it on the contact page on the KCBS website.

Jorge
04-07-2010, 03:46 PM
So is the ignitor in an FEC guarenteed to only heat up when it is first turned on? If the fire does go out for some reason and then more pellets are added, will it not automatically re-ignite the new pellets? It's not that I doubt any one here, but because the rule, as written, specifically forbids this, I'd really like to see the written evidence that it doesn't apply.

Thanks!

dmp

Sometime in the past I think the BoD addressed this...sort of. They decided that the igniter did not produce enough heat to violate the rules if I recall correctly. you might find that info in the board notes available via kcbs.us. Beyond that, I'm not familiar with ANYTHING in writing that addresses your specific question.

Ron_L
04-07-2010, 03:46 PM
So is the ignitor in an FEC guarenteed to only heat up when it is first turned on? If the fire does go out for some reason and then more pellets are added, will it not automatically re-ignite the new pellets? It's not that I doubt any one here, but because the rule, as written, specifically forbids this, I'd really like to see the written evidence that it doesn't apply.

Thanks!

dmp

Yes. it only comes on when the unit is first started. If the fire gos out it will not come on automatically. The pitmaster has to turn the FEC off for a couple of minutes and then start it up again. If that's not good enough please contact Cookshack directly.

If you want written evidence, contact KCBS. Nothing that we can post here is going to be as good as something directly from KCBS.

dmprantz
04-07-2010, 03:56 PM
Yes. it only comes on when the unit is first started. If the fire gos out it will not come on automatically. The pitmaster has to turn the FEC off for a couple of minutes and then start it up again.

Thanks! That makes my question mostly moot! I was concerned about the ignitor turning on during a cook without the pitmaster telling it to do so. If that can't happen then the pitmaster must intend to turn it on. If that is still not a rules violation, well that's a different story. Thanks!

dmp

KC_Bobby
04-07-2010, 04:03 PM
Or just have one that the ignitor is broken.:mad: Then you don't have to worry about it. You just have to remember starter gel.:doh:

Our's resembles that

Smokin Mike
04-07-2010, 04:19 PM
dmp,

it's not a electric element by any standards, it simply will not heat anything. a lighter will do a better job than the ignitor in a FEC.

In a contest, if you have a problem with a fire, or temps in a FEC, your problems are way BIGGER!, no igniter will ever fix that. probally why it's legal.

jbrink01
04-07-2010, 04:24 PM
Or just have one that the ignitor is broken.:mad: Then you don't have to worry about it. You just have to remember starter gel.:doh:

Kim,
The ignitor is broken on my 500. I carry a small propane torch. After you hear the audible "click" when the auger stops at start-up, hold the torch on the pellets for 1 minute or 2.

DeanC
04-07-2010, 05:00 PM
My ignitor broke a few months after the FEC arrived. I use the gel, and actually prefer it; it lights right the first time.

River City Smokehouse
04-07-2010, 09:24 PM
Yes. it only comes on when the unit is first started. If the fire gos out it will not come on automatically. The pitmaster has to turn the FEC off for a couple of minutes and then start it up again.
Ron....in order to make the ignighter come on while it is cooking all you have to do is hit the start button. You do not have to shut it off and wait at all.

Plowboy
04-07-2010, 10:24 PM
Yes. it only comes on when the unit is first started. If the fire gos out it will not come on automatically. The pitmaster has to turn the FEC off for a couple of minutes and then start it up again. If that's not good enough please contact Cookshack directly.

If you want written evidence, contact KCBS. Nothing that we can post here is going to be as good as something directly from KCBS.

If the pit temp drops below 145, the igniter comes on. The igniter is on until the pit comes back up to 145.

Plowboy
04-07-2010, 10:31 PM
The answer I got from KCBS a couple of years ago is that if the fire is burning, no worries. If your fire is out, take the meat out, get the fire lit, and return the meat.

The thing I like about KCBS is that the reps really do use common sense and don't nit pick at stuff that has nothing to do with cooking BBQ. If someone put a Zippo in their firebox, I highly doubt anyone would do anything but laugh.

smknwhlswife
04-07-2010, 11:22 PM
Kim,
The ignitor is broken on my 500. I carry a small propane torch. After you hear the audible "click" when the auger stops at start-up, hold the torch on the pellets for 1 minute or 2.

Thanks, but i just let Andy deal with it. :heh:

SmokinOkie
04-08-2010, 08:33 AM
All,

I confirmed this information with Cookshack before posting.

KCBS did make that ruling about "not enough heat" but more importantly.

As of a few years back, the Ignitor Restart feature was removed from the IQ. The only way for the ignitor to come back on is to turn the system off and turn it back on. No auto-relight feature any more.

Russ

Spydermike72
04-08-2010, 09:08 AM
Use a stick burner and you dont have to worry about it at all :laugh:
Ok I am going to the penalty box now...

Plowboy
04-08-2010, 09:59 AM
All,

I confirmed this information with Cookshack before posting.

KCBS did make that ruling about "not enough heat" but more importantly.

As of a few years back, the Ignitor Restart feature was removed from the IQ. The only way for the ignitor to come back on is to turn the system off and turn it back on. No auto-relight feature any more.

Russ

Your last statement is not true. Just saw a new pit with the auto relight built in. I think it is build 46 or something like that. When you pit turns on, it flashes the eprom build on the screen.

dmprantz
04-08-2010, 10:28 AM
Thank you all for the information, even though some of it is contradictory. As suggested, I have eMailed Karen to try to get official documentation. Even if Auto-Relight is configurable or always off, this may apply to Traeger or Country Smokers or W'Ham, etc.

For the record, just so ppl don't think I'm being a sh!t disturber, I just want to make sure that *I* am within the rules with whatever I do. I am not trying to say that FECs should be illegal because of this, but the rule, as stated, seems pretty straight forward to me, and if there is an exception, I would like to understand it. I think an auto-ignitor could be okay, but I could also see some one saying that it makes it just too easy, or whatever.

Thanks again!

dmp

Scottie
04-08-2010, 10:43 AM
The ignitor on the FE is like sticking your tongue on a 6V battery. There is absolutley no production of heat for the pit. It was determind that way, I want to say 2 years ago by the board.

paydabill
04-08-2010, 10:49 AM
hmm - I did not know about the lighter coming back on. My biggest fear is not lighting the pellets - thanks everyone on the advice on how to lite it. I need ot buy some gel for a back up.

Plowboy
04-08-2010, 12:09 PM
For the record, just so ppl don't think I'm being a sh!t disturber, I just want to make sure that *I* am within the rules with whatever I do. I am not trying to say that FECs should be illegal because of this, but the rule, as stated, seems pretty straight forward to me, and if there is an exception, I would like to understand it. I think an auto-ignitor could be okay, but I could also see some one saying that it makes it just too easy, or whatever.

Thanks again!

dmp

I know that you are saying that, but you are getting into the "thick of thin things". This is about the smallest level of detail to even be concerned about. Let's be careful not to force our rules to become mired in statutory regulation that a cook needs to hire "representation" at the cooks meeting. Everyone here seems to be content with the position that KCBS has dealt with it and doesn't consider it an issue. If you need more than that, by all means, go ask and even report back. However, we members need to be mindful of how much we are stirring the pot whether we intend to or not. There are probably thousands of comp cookers here on the BBQ Brethren, and unfortunately, we like to pile on more than we should. Keeping the fodder low, lessons the frequency of the mob mentality.

I just had to put that out there. I'm hoping for a calmer 2010 from the members. We need to tone it down a little. We blame the BOD for carrying on, but the membership is often worse.

GratefulSmoker
04-08-2010, 12:48 PM
I know that you are saying that, but you are getting into the "thick of thin things". This is about the smallest level of detail to even be concerned about. Let's be careful not to force our rules to become mired in statutory regulation that a cook needs to hire "representation" at the cooks meeting. Everyone here seems to be content with the position that KCBS has dealt with it and doesn't consider it an issue. If you need more than that, by all means, go ask and even report back. However, we members need to be mindful of how much we are stirring the pot whether we intend to or not. There are probably thousands of comp cookers here on the BBQ Brethren, and unfortunately, we like to pile on more than we should. Keeping the fodder low, lessons the frequency of the mob mentality.

I just had to put that out there. I'm hoping for a calmer 2010 from the members. We need to tone it down a little. We blame the BOD for carrying on, but the membership is often worse.

Very well said!!:clap2::clap2::clap2:

CivilWarBBQ
04-08-2010, 03:52 PM
AMEN Brother.

Anyone interested in the technical details of exactly how a partically cooker works ought to contact the maker directly - in this case Fast Eddie Maurin.

Jorge
04-08-2010, 05:15 PM
I know that you are saying that, but you are getting into the "thick of thin things". This is about the smallest level of detail to even be concerned about. Let's be careful not to force our rules to become mired in statutory regulation that a cook needs to hire "representation" at the cooks meeting. Everyone here seems to be content with the position that KCBS has dealt with it and doesn't consider it an issue. If you need more than that, by all means, go ask and even report back. However, we members need to be mindful of how much we are stirring the pot whether we intend to or not. There are probably thousands of comp cookers here on the BBQ Brethren, and unfortunately, we like to pile on more than we should. Keeping the fodder low, lessons the frequency of the mob mentality.

I just had to put that out there. I'm hoping for a calmer 2010 from the members. We need to tone it down a little. We blame the BOD for carrying on, but the membership is often worse.

I wanna hug you man!

Ron_L
04-08-2010, 05:24 PM
I wanna hug you man!

Me too! :hug:

Muzzlebrake
04-08-2010, 07:48 PM
you sir, spilled my Yoo-Hoo

Plowboy
04-08-2010, 08:50 PM
you sir, spilled my Yoo-Hoo

I just ask myself, "What would Louis Stubbs do?"

Contracted Cookers
04-08-2010, 10:24 PM
f.e.c. owner plus acouple of cans and agood one. let us work together or we will fall apart.

dmprantz
04-09-2010, 12:49 AM
Well said Todd. I had let this die down until I got more information, but then the discussion over the auto-ignite feature started back up. For the record, if I had an FEC, I would not be asking too much, as they are used everywhere. I am building my own pellet feed, version 2.0, and if I choose to install an auto-ignite, I'd like to know what is or is not allowed. If I had an FEC, I could say "Todd and Scottie a few sites down use them" or whatever, and I bet all would be kosher, but if it is a custom auto-igniter, I feel I need to know what is allowed, regardless of what the rules say.

Thanks again,

dmp

SmokinOkie
04-09-2010, 07:47 AM
Agree completely Todd.

Merl
04-09-2010, 07:56 AM
I think perhaps the horse, the cow, the goat and the pig are not really dead (an who really knows where that cat is.) I love to watch people keep stirring the pot. This is the most interesting post on the web. I think I love it so much is because I still watch Seinfeld reruns about nothing.

Ron_L
04-09-2010, 08:10 AM
Well said Todd. I had let this die down until I got more information, but then the discussion over the auto-ignite feature started back up. For the record, if I had an FEC, I would not be asking too much, as they are used everywhere. I am building my own pellet feed, version 2.0, and if I choose to install an auto-ignite, I'd like to know what is or is not allowed. If I had an FEC, I could say "Todd and Scottie a few sites down use them" or whatever, and I bet all would be kosher, but if it is a custom auto-igniter, I feel I need to know what is allowed, regardless of what the rules say.

Thanks again,

dmp

If that was your goal, perhaps it would have been better to ask "If I put an autoignitor in the pellet smoker that I am building, will that be legal at a KCBS competition?" instead of questioning the legality of the FEC-100. We may have ended up with the same discussion, but i suspect you would have gotten to your goal much faster.

Jorge
04-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Well said Todd. I had let this die down until I got more information, but then the discussion over the auto-ignite feature started back up. For the record, if I had an FEC, I would not be asking too much, as they are used everywhere. I am building my own pellet feed, version 2.0, and if I choose to install an auto-ignite, I'd like to know what is or is not allowed. If I had an FEC, I could say "Todd and Scottie a few sites down use them" or whatever, and I bet all would be kosher, but if it is a custom auto-igniter, I feel I need to know what is allowed, regardless of what the rules say.

Thanks again,

dmp

Thanks for the clarification!:becky: In all honesty, I'd have looked at that question completely differently:becky: The FE/FEC thing has been beaten to death over the years. Had you asked a question about the situation you are actually in I suspect the responses may have gone differently. Thanks for taking the time to provide that extra info, so that everyone can understand what your purpose for asking the question was.

Scottie
04-09-2010, 09:43 PM
I'd like to hug Ronelle as well...

Tell Jorge I got Tito...

Ron_L
04-09-2010, 10:07 PM
I'd like to hug Ronelle as well...

I can be there in half an hour! :clap2: :becky: :redface:

juicybuttsbbq
04-10-2010, 02:57 PM
If someone put a Zippo in their firebox, I highly doubt anyone would do anything but laugh.

Hummmm,,, So That's What They Were Laughing At!.......Grins