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Jeff_in_KC
02-07-2010, 01:24 PM
Here's the brief version...

Friday, KCBS had on its agenda to consider the sanctioning for Ronnie Cates' Smoke on the Water contest in Lulu, MS. He was two days late with some of the paperwork required at 90 days. However, Ron contacted the office via phone and email and spoke directly to two board members (this from Ron himself) to let them know he was waiting on a major sponsor for the event and would be a couple of days late.

First vote, board voted to sanction anyway by a 6-5 vote.

After the vote, "someone" persisted and convinced the board to discuss further.

Another vote was taken to sanction and this time it failed by a 6-5 vote. So Ron Cates got a contest sanctioning denied for little more than "we want to play by the letter of the law" rather than "we want to do what's best for KCBS".

This morning, Ron Cates said he will be starting a new sanctioning body sooner rather than later. All of his contests will eventually be sanctioned by his organization and not KCBS.

Ron estimated that this will cost KCBS approximately $30,000 annually.

So how is losing this kind of money AND high profile, high prize purse events in the best interests of KCBS?

MilitantSquatter
02-07-2010, 01:30 PM
This whole KCBS stuff is like a bad soap opera...

I saw the same thing happen with a sport I was involved with. One sanctioning body in the 1980's turned into a circus with members/contest organizers breaking off, taking sides and beginning their own sanctioning bodies due to politics and petty BS.

This lead to multiple claims to be leading organization, in it for the best interests of the membership, promises of making it better, protection of the the long term viability of the sport, upholding integrity, multiple claims to champion/championship events etc.... It became irrepairable to this day.

I can see both sides here, who ever is at fault.. the answer always comes down to $$$.

Fractionalization at it's best.. What a shame.

watertowerbbq
02-07-2010, 01:37 PM
It was sanctioned and then later it was not sanctioned? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Was any explanation given as to why the sanctioning of a contrest was reversed?

Jorge
02-07-2010, 01:41 PM
It was sanctioned and then later it was not sanctioned? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Was any explanation given as to why the sanctioning of a contrest was reversed?

I believe the paperwork was a couple of days late.

Ford
02-07-2010, 01:56 PM
First vote, board voted to sanction anyway by a 6-5 vote.

After the vote, "someone" persisted and convinced the board to discuss further.

Another vote was taken to sanction and this time it failed by a 6-5 vote. So Ron Cates got a contest sanctioning denied for little more than "we want to play by the letter of the law" rather than "we want to do what's best for KCBS".

Lets wait for the minutes before saying this is what happened and I don't mean quick notes. My understanding is there's more to the story. And I really hate people making comments about bullying on the BOD uless they were listening at the time and can substantiate it. Not meant at just you Jeff, there have been many people on multiple Forums all saying this but nodoby will admit to hearing anything live.
This whole KCBS stuff is like a bad soap opera...

I can see both sides here, who ever is at fault.. the answer always comes down to $$$.
So true. Even if it's about a guarantee for prize money.
I believe the paperwork was a couple of days late.
There's a lot more to the story.

But I think it is going to hurt the KCBS losing the Cates promotions. At the same time competition may help the sport grow. I'm sure they will be successful in their ventures but it's sure going to be for the big teams not the average competition cook. North Little Rock start at $450 for an entry fee.

BBQchef33
02-07-2010, 02:17 PM
Another vote was taken to sanction and this time it failed by a 6-5 vote. So Ron Cates got a contest sanctioning denied for little more than "we want to play by the letter of the law" rather than "we want to do what's best for KCBS".



:confused:
hmmmmmm.

IMHO.....One word negates that.

Lakeland



I dont even know where to start. After the banquet, with stuff i was hearing, it really seems like the organization is going to just self destruct... and I cant even begin to figure out where they would or should start to prevent it. Theres just so much, every year, something new comes up, along side the old stuff. I'll continue to pay my dues, and continue to compete in the KCBS contests, but sometimes its frustrating when the folks we trust to represent us, and do whats best, AND sometimes inject some common sense into the decisions... well.. I dont see that happening.

Jacked UP BBQ
02-07-2010, 02:18 PM
All I can say is that is what rules are written for, if there was a gray area, the PORK rule what not be so pressed. So I want to here no complaining from all of those people who say the rules are the rules!!!!!!!!!!

ClayHill
02-07-2010, 02:20 PM
As a new competitor I seriously considered a new membership to KCBS this year. I want to be supportive of a group that provides great opportunities for me, but after reading several post here and elsewhere I am just puzzled on what to do. Drama is something I tend to run away from and it seems that drama is part of the KCBS game

DawgPhan
02-07-2010, 02:34 PM
As a new competitor I seriously considered a new membership to KCBS this year. I want to be supportive of a group that provides great opportunities for me, but after reading several post here and elsewhere I am just puzzled on what to do. Drama is something I tend to run away from and it seems that drama is part of the KCBS game


I wouldnt worry about it...they do a fine job sanctioning a contest and most of the bickering has little to do with your ability to compete in a fair way against other BBQ teams.

Jorge
02-07-2010, 02:48 PM
There's a lot more to the story.



Your point is fair. I suspect I've heard all, or at least most of it but didn't want to lay it all out there.

Alexa RnQ
02-07-2010, 02:52 PM
We have a local contest here that was in the same situation -- paperwork was going to be late because the organizers did not want to jump before the sponsors, who don't give a damn about KCBS's rules, had their money locked down. The same channels of communication were used -- notice to KCBS board members, who allegedly made encouraging noises about sanctioning being approved.

The contest's sanctioning was shot down for late paperwork.

Why should Ronnie Cates be any different? Because he has more money?

ClayHill
02-07-2010, 03:02 PM
"I wouldnt worry about it...they do a fine job sanctioning a contest and most of the bickering has little to do with your ability to compete in a fair way against other BBQ teams."

Your probabaly right...either way, it all will pan out in the end

monty3777
02-07-2010, 03:47 PM
In my understanding of Robert's Rules of Order a vote can only be reconsidered if one of the YES voters claims they didn't understand or voted the way they did because of wrong information. I could be wrong (I'm no expert on RroO) but there is a chance the vote would have to stand if the issue is pressed. Don't like the result? Press the issue.

CivilWarBBQ
02-07-2010, 03:49 PM
Anyone who has paid attention to the actions of certain board members as opposed to their rhetoric is not surprised by this latest turn of events.

EDIT: Oh, and the KCBS BoD is not bound by Robert's Rules.

Jorge
02-07-2010, 03:49 PM
In my understanding of Robert's Rules of Order a vote can only be reconsidered if one of the YES voters claims they didn't understand or voted the way they did because of wrong information. I could be wrong (I'm no expert on RroO) but there is a chance the vote would have to stand if the issue is pressed. Don't like the result? Press the issue.


those rules aren't used by the BoD.

monty3777
02-07-2010, 03:54 PM
those rules aren't used by the BoD.

Thanks for the clarification!

Jorge
02-07-2010, 04:44 PM
We have a local contest here that was in the same situation -- paperwork was going to be late because the organizers did not want to jump before the sponsors, who don't give a damn about KCBS's rules, had their money locked down. The same channels of communication were used -- notice to KCBS board members, who allegedly made encouraging noises about sanctioning being approved.

The contest's sanctioning was shot down for late paperwork.

Why should Ronnie Cates be any different? Because he has more money?

To a degree. Ronnie Cates is taking $30k in fees with him. He's taking exposure and a relationship with NASCAR with him as well. I think all of those things would go a long way towards promoting BBQ.

I don't have a problem with a successful and respected organizer getting the benefit of the doubt. That goes for any organizer that fits the criteria; not just Ronnie Cates.

Mo-Dave
02-07-2010, 04:45 PM
:confused:
hmmmmmm.

IMHO.....One word negates that.

Lakeland



I dont even know where to start. After the banquet, with stuff i was hearing, it really seems like the organization is going to just self destruct... and I cant even begin to figure out where they would or should start to prevent it. Theres just so much, every year, something new comes up, along side the old stuff. I'll continue to pay my dues, and continue to compete in the KCBS contests, but sometimes its frustrating when the folks we trust to represent us, and do whats best, AND sometimes inject some common sense into the decisions... well.. I dont see that happening.

Dang if that don't sound like how they run things were I work.
Dave

Smoke'n Ice
02-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Anyone consider that there may be more to the story as Paul Harvey said. Could it be other requirements were not met in addition to the late filing? ie. prize money guarantee for the cooks, previous performances, etc.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
02-07-2010, 08:20 PM
I don't get it. KCBS sanctioning docs say just send in a minimum of $300 and your form at least 90 days prior to the contest. If they say no, you get your money back. He was 2 days late. With the info available, I like the call.

Rub
02-07-2010, 08:28 PM
:confused:
hmmmmmm.

IMHO.....One word negates that.

Lakeland


What happened with Lakeland? Where does it fit into this?

BBQ Grail
02-07-2010, 08:28 PM
Where do I send my check for the new sanctioning body?

landarc
02-07-2010, 09:04 PM
So, how many national BBQ sanctioning bodies are there now? It seems like there is a lot of dissension amongst the KCBS members, which I find hard to believe (I am being serious).

Rub
02-07-2010, 09:41 PM
So, how many national BBQ sanctioning bodies are there now? It seems like there is a lot of dissension amongst the KCBS members, which I find hard to believe (I am being serious).

I don't know how many there are, but the FBA is always ready. :mrgreen:

HoDeDo
02-07-2010, 09:56 PM
We have a local contest here that was in the same situation -- paperwork was going to be late because the organizers did not want to jump before the sponsors, who don't give a damn about KCBS's rules, had their money locked down. The same channels of communication were used -- notice to KCBS board members, who allegedly made encouraging noises about sanctioning being approved.

The contest's sanctioning was shot down for late paperwork.

Why should Ronnie Cates be any different? Because he has more money?

Didn't say Ronnie should be different... but I think both issues are bad for business. KCBS made new rules about the prize money... so that has caused organizers to have to lock in funds earlier, or not start sanctioning as early.... so rather than work with the organizers. KCBS is choosing to try to penalize them... That will drive someone to come in and fill the void. There will be competition in the sanctioning world, and competition will likely be the best thing for the cooks. As far as Ronnie goes.... he runs solid events, and brings alot to the table. 8 events this year alone... including ties to NASCAR etc, that could bring alot of great visability to KCBS. In addition, he isnt some new organizer... he has sunk alot of money into KCBS sanctioning for alot of past events. I would think the RELATIONSHIP built, should be able to afford him a couple days. With the type of sponsors he is bringing to comp BBQ, and the number events and venues he brings.... I dont see how anyone can think it is agood thing to keep him from sanctioning events for KCBS. I don't know about the organizer or event you mentioned... if it is a new event -- or one that has been around for 15 years. But I would say the same things about it... If they have worked with KCBS over the years, I would think that the relationship built would afford them to work together.

I can't help but think these events are going to happen if KCBS is there or not...

Yakfishingfool
02-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Last month was my first experience with the KCBS BoD, nice people, but they need someone that knows how a BOD works. Way to loose for an organization with that many members and that much responsibility in my opinion. An organization that appears to have it's ivory towers of leaders as well as no real vision for the future. If they don't plan they will sit with heads in hands and wonder where they have gone wrong.

All it takes is a willingness to admit they need the help and then find the right person/people to help. There are lot of people/organization geared at teaching an organization how to be an organization, not taking power away, but rather helping those in leadership do a better job. It is not intuitive and when the money starts getting big it is not tolerable. Just my two cents. Scott

Just Pulin' Pork
02-07-2010, 11:07 PM
Wow the KCBS F'ing something up I am shocked! This is getting old hearing all the members asking for there voices to be heard and nothing happening! WOW! Getting old really old! Come on KCBS!

River City Smokehouse
02-08-2010, 03:43 AM
Darn near sounds just like state government. They like stepping over quarters to pick up pennies.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

crd26a
02-08-2010, 07:57 AM
In reading the posts over at BBQ Forum, to me it sounds like the split was inevitable. If Ron had that much of a plan ready, rules laid out, scoring system, etc. and is ready to announce by the end of the week, maybe the BoD knew this was eventually coming (I don't believe it, but we'll read the minutes). I agree the deadline should be extended, but also look at the other side of the coin, is Ron using this as a lightening rod issue to split people off to make his more successful? If so, and it wouldn't surprise me, its a sly but shady move.

Ultimately the BoD is going to have to change, become more business focused, and figure out a way to truly run an organization. Until they do, they're going to flounder really moving the organization forward.

ique
02-08-2010, 08:55 AM
Seems like this break up has been coming for some time now, giving the event a pass on the 90 day rule would probably just be delaying the inevitable.

Will Little Rock be KCBS sanctioned? No way am I dropping a $500 entry fee + travel to trial a new system.

Jacked UP BBQ
02-08-2010, 09:02 AM
Chris - you are right about that, that is a lot of money to waste, I already dropped 620 on the entry based on it being KCBS, if not I hope I can get my money back.

ov1
02-08-2010, 09:05 AM
According to the KCBS webpage Little Rock is already sanctioned, it is on the events page at least.

gmholler
02-08-2010, 09:12 AM
Ron has had issues with KCBS for a while now. Sounds like this was just the last straw.

Lynn H.

Ford
02-08-2010, 09:17 AM
Latest posts on another Forum indicate it will stay KCBS. Ron indicated he would probably roll out the new sanctioning body details at NLR. He's not ready yet and he will need to let cooks know and give them the option if it isn't KCBS. Just not enough time.

CivilWarBBQ
02-08-2010, 09:39 AM
If Ron had that much of a plan ready, rules laid out, scoring system, etc. and is ready to announce by the end of the week, maybe the BoD knew this was eventually coming (I don't believe it, but we'll read the minutes).

Ron Cates had publicly announced his intention to form his own sanctioning group if KCBS did not give in to his demands months ago . As one of just a handful of true Promoters, he felt that KCBS was not responsive to the wants of people like himself who produce BBQ Contests for their own profit. (As opposed to Organizers who put on events to benefit charities)

So yes, the BoD had advance notice of what Mr. Cates was up to. It's too bad some sort of compromise couldn't be worked out that would satisfy this new breed of Promoters without alienating the Organizers who have fueled the growth of KCBS since the beginning. Certainly it's a tough job for the Board to figure out how to balance Promoter with a very small number (9) of high paying events with Organizers producing hundreds of lower paying events.

deena
02-08-2010, 11:46 AM
I know that the PNWBA would love to have events like Mr. Cates puts on. Last year we did 33 events and we plan to have even more this year.

Christene

G$
02-08-2010, 12:04 PM
I've always thought that the parallels between BBQ and poker were significant. Both are pastimes loved by MILLIONs upon MILLIONS of Americans, in their home and also in public venues. Both are intrinsicly "American". Both have small subsets of "professionals" that play the game for "money". Both have unclear rules or multiple sanctioning bodies that enforce rules at different "tournamounts" during the year. Both are open to anyone willing to plunk down the cash, except for a few Invitationals where the cream of the crop are invited.

Both have also experienced explosive growth, while having some real growing pains. So, it is with some irony that I recall, about 4 or 5 years ago when Harrahs bought the rights to the biggest name in Poker (the World Series of Poker- aka "WSOP") they appointed a new position to solely oversee that brand and tournamount, market it, care for it, and grow it. They appointed a strong willed leader, who marched to the orders of the corporation, but ultimately was also seen as a big advocate for the players, because he knew that they were the reason the WSOP existed. That man recently left his job at the WSOP, and almost everyone agrees that poker and the WSOP is better off now after a few years of his aggresive leadership.

His name was Jeffry Pollack, which isn't that interesting, except when you consider that prior to taking over the largest poker name in the world, he was Managing Director of Broadcasting and New Media for NASCAR. This guy didn't really know much (anything) about poker or NASCAR, but he knew how to market and he was a dynamic, singular leader.

This is just a long way to express wonderment at whether KCBS would serve to appoint (correction, HIRE) a dynamic forward thinking individual to help guide what appears to be a board that is listing in the sea some times.


EDIT: I almost forgot, they both have "Bad Boy" top notch competitors that wear all black and have 'foul mouths'. ;)