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Ford
02-04-2010, 03:38 PM
When the BOD votes on propane use I hope they will take the following into consideration.

1. Allowing propane will allow many additional makes of smokers to compete. This should open doors for increased sponsorship to both the KCBS and to contest organizers.

2. Allowing propane will allow restaurnat owners, caterers and vendors using top quality cookers to compete in KCBS contests with the rigs they use every day and with the fuel they use. Some may say it's an unfair advantage but we all know it's the cook not the cooker. So now more teams will try to compete.

3. IMHO the most compelling reason to allow propane. The average John Q public not a member of KCBS today and probably not even on these Forums and he will now be allowed to bring the grill they have on their back deck to a contest and compete against the big guys. Surveys say people choose propane over charcoal for backyard use by this group. Give them a chance to build smoke packages, or buy a higher end grill with smoker attachment and give them a chance. The KCBS expands their market, the contests gain more teams and the public is a lot more interested. Get John Q public to enter and invite all their friends to a contest. Then they find out what smoking is really all about. Everybody wins and the KCBS continues to educate the public about BBQ.

Fellow Brethren, I'd appreciate your comments understanding that the BOD will probably vote sometime late tomorrow or early Saturday. I've stated my reasons on why I think it's a good idea. I'm sure some have valid reasons why it's not. Maybe before the vote some BOD members will check this. Maybe not.

Bbq Bubba
02-04-2010, 03:42 PM
Nicely put Ford!

Jacked UP BBQ
02-04-2010, 03:42 PM
I say let propane in! It is another cooking method. We are cooking four categories of meat. No one should be able to tell us what we can use to make our best product. If i want to use propane and I cook great ribs on my Weber, then let me cook. Say YES to propane!

bigabyte
02-04-2010, 03:46 PM
I'm not necessarily against the idea of propane, I agree with Ford it opens the door to more competitors/sponsors, and you still have to make good food.

However, I find it hard to imagine restaurant owners cooking their food the way they are used to in their restaurant having a chance in hell of winning. Just saying. I'll go back ot my corner now.

Ford
02-04-2010, 03:50 PM
I'm not necessarily against the idea of propane, I agree with Ford it opens the door to more competitors/sponsors, and you still have to make good food.

However, I find it hard to imagine restaurant owners cooking their food the way they are used to in their restaurant having a chance in hell of winning. Just saying. I'll go back ot my corner now.
Very well said. I put thousands of pounds thru my FE's last year and I cook differently than for a contest. Just need to keep the 2 apart. Until they learn that they will be field fillers who may occasionally be lucky.

bbqbull
02-04-2010, 04:04 PM
I agree with Fords comments.
Some of the best cooks I have ever known have propane fueled smokers at there homes, unable to buy anything better due to our local economy.

I believe a few might enter KCBS comps knowing that propane would be legal if the board votes to accept it as an approved cooking fuel.

Sponsors.........omg think how many major propane suppliers/dealers would probably jump at the chance to sponsor a bbq contest.

I can think of 4 local dealers that service the little village of Eagle and area that would jump at the chance to sponsor as well as bring propane tanks to a contest to sell or refill propane tanks, similar to say an ice delivery truck.

crd26a
02-04-2010, 04:07 PM
If you allow propane, just open it up to all methods, including electric. Whereas I see your points Ford, also consider the mission of KCBS

Our mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbeque to be recognized as America's Cuisine.

To me, to truly "preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique" doesn't include propane style cookers. To me, it brings forth the idea of an open fire, wood, and care, not of a weber gasser set to high searing a steak. Its two completely different things

PCDoctor_1979
02-04-2010, 04:10 PM
I think that Ford makes some compelling points about propane. The same could be said about electricity as well, I suppose. I'm probably pretty old fashioned in thinking this, but my thought is that the ability to maintain the proper temperature in your pit with out artificial means is a skill that makes barbecue different from any other culinary styles. No offense intended to all you who use pellet rigs. I guess I don't see the need to make competition BBQ more like other cooking methods.

Ford
02-04-2010, 04:28 PM
If you allow propane, just open it up to all methods, including electric. Whereas I see your points Ford, also consider the mission of KCBS

Our mission is to celebrate, teach, preserve, and promote barbeque as a culinary technique, sport and art form. We want barbeque to be recognized as America's Cuisine.

To me, to truly "preserve and promote barbeque as a culinary technique" doesn't include propane style cookers. To me, it brings forth the idea of an open fire, wood, and care, not of a weber gasser set to high searing a steak. Its two completely different things
Good points but may I point out that nothing in the nission statement includes the phrase over an open fire. I agree many people hear promote and preserve and think open fire but the fire is the heat source and what makes good BBQ better isn't the heat source but the rubs, marinades, sauces and injections that cooks use and the ability to blend them to create the perfect piece of meat. That's a tradition that is passed from father to son or daughter and sometimes the other way around.

And have you ever tried to get a backyard gasser to keep 250f for a period of time like 10 hours? It's a lot more work that you tink. Now the big SP's are easier to use.

HoDeDo
02-04-2010, 08:18 PM
I think someone mentioned the competitor series earlier. It was designed to allow non traditional rules to be applied. i.e. Gas contest, Sitck burner only, Lamb only, etc.... anything that strayed from the Masters series core rules.

To my knowledge, that was never really marketed, so you just didnt see contests in that arena. Also, since those contests did not count towards points, or some invitationals, they were afraid they would not be as desirable to attend.

The LP Que (Competitor Series inaugral event) that Arlie threw was great! I wish more of those would occur. We cooked it just to try something different.

I think Ford has great ideas/thoughts around this. Esp. with the growth in popularity, I think it opens up cooking for folks with $150 great mountain gassers, and $20k Old Hickory pits... I say bring them all into the fold. I have new people to meet, new places to go! :)

Plowboy
02-04-2010, 09:24 PM
If propane is allowed, then can I use butane? I can 100% promise you that if gas is allowed, you'll see me crisping up my chicken skin or setting my sauce with a torch.

Smoked Chicken Brulee!!!!

http://www.cookware-online.co.uk/images/product/main/KCBTKITCP.jpg

ZILLA
02-04-2010, 09:25 PM
There is nothing left of tradition to preserve so why should it matter? I don't see why electric is still on the outs. They might as well let that in too.

G$
02-04-2010, 09:39 PM
Well said Ford, and well reasoned, I appreciate the comments.

Also, I disagree, but then I'm a guy that would prefer we not allow electric fan assist or electric driven augers. :wink:

I can truly understand the point of view, that says "open it up", but for me, there IS a line we can draw that preserves a slightly more traditional, I'll even say primitive, requirement for BBQ cooking. Different strokes for different folks.

Plowboy
02-04-2010, 09:58 PM
Well said Ford, and well reasoned, I appreciate the comments.

Also, I disagree, but then I'm a guy that would prefer we not allow electric fan assist or electric driven augers. :wink:

I can truly understand the point of view, that says "open it up", but for me, there IS a line we can draw that preserves a slightly more traditional, I'll even say primitive, requirement for BBQ cooking. Different strokes for different folks.


Or different STOKES for different folks... as it were.

SirPorkaLot
02-04-2010, 10:02 PM
It is all about money.

money has ruined Nascar and it will ruin KCBS if allowed.
Yes i am 100% sure the money that is sitting out there from gas suppliers is a strong motivating factor for these discussions.

In fact I had a BOD member tell me just that today.
Problem is - propane just ain't BBQ folks, no matter how much you want it to be.

SirPorkaLot
02-04-2010, 10:05 PM
Well said Ford, and well reasoned, I appreciate the comments.

Also, I disagree, but then I'm a guy that would prefer we not allow electric fan assist or electric driven augers. :wink:

I can truly understand the point of view, that says "open it up", but for me, there IS a line we can draw that preserves a slightly more traditional, I'll even say primitive, requirement for BBQ cooking. Different strokes for different folks.

Ditto that

outlaw pellets, electric blowers, stokers, gurus. Let's go back to basics, and see where the chips fall then.

If the do allow propane, I am bringing my fish cooker, and gonna boil me some ribs! :evil:

Gene01
02-04-2010, 10:32 PM
as an FYI, many of the board members do look at the forums on a reguar basis, they may not post often, they do want to stay in touch with what members think, I am not sure how this or any other rule vote may go, we will see...... some people think that we the board make up the agenda item rule requests, these are all from the membership, we just vote for or against what is presented to us... Linda Mulane collected this information from KCBS members at the rules meeting last month....

Jeff_in_KC
02-04-2010, 11:52 PM
as an FYI, many of the board members do look at the forums on a reguar basis, they may not post often, they do want to stay in touch with what members think, I am not sure how this or any other rule vote may go, we will see...... some people think that we the board make up the agenda item rule requests, these are all from the membership, we just vote for or against what is presented to us... Linda Mulane collected this information from KCBS members at the rules meeting last month....

Approximately 70 out of 11,000+ members. Most not even cooks. That's crappier numbers than the voter turn-out.

Jeff_in_KC
02-04-2010, 11:55 PM
In regards to allowing propane cookers at a contest with tons of people crowded into a fairly tight area, I have one question...

Jim (River City Smokehouse), how are you feeling after the propane accident you had with your smoker a couple of years ago?

If it can happen to Jimmy, it can happen to anyone. And I certainly wouldn't want to be a team next to another team using propane when the schrapnel starts flying.

KC_Bobby
02-05-2010, 12:08 AM
Let's go back to basics, and see where the chips fall then.

Can't - KCBS has a rule about open flame and digging a pit. If we outlaw guru's and augers and forced air - insulated smokers will be next, then the gauge of steel allowed on the smoke chamber, then a pit itself. And what about equipment outside the pit itself? No campers or trailers. Can we have cots?

Am I exaggerating? Guess that's subjective too.

Am I in favor of legalizing gas? I'd like to think I really don't have an opinion. If another team want to use one, I don't have a problem as long as it's safe for everyone. I guess since we do cook some of our categories on a pellet smoker, I would be a hypocrite to say it shouldn't be allowed. As a competitor, I welcome them. As a concerned individual I'd just want to make sure everyone's safety is factored into the decision.

tmcmaster
02-05-2010, 01:16 AM
I see all the points to allow propane, but I still feel like it is... somehow... dirty... using it for a contest. Maybe it's just me, but I could also see some zoning issues with the contest sites for having flammable and under pressure tanks in such close proximity to potential open fires, or at the very least sparks...

CajunSmoker
02-05-2010, 07:00 AM
In regards to allowing propane cookers at a contest with tons of people crowded into a fairly tight area, I have one question...

Jim (River City Smokehouse), how are you feeling after the propane accident you had with your smoker a couple of years ago?

If it can happen to Jimmy, it can happen to anyone. And I certainly wouldn't want to be a team next to another team using propane when the schrapnel starts flying.

If I recall correctly, Jim's accident happened with a gas assist on a stick burner. They are already legal and in use at every contest.

Capn Kev
02-05-2010, 07:13 AM
Or different STOKES for different folks... as it were.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

BBQ Grail
02-05-2010, 07:27 AM
Let's go back to basics, and see where the chips fall then.

"Back to basics"

Interesting term. What exactly are the basics and who gets to decide what basics were. How basic is basic?

If you really went back to the basics then you're cooking in a hole in the ground over whatever wood you can find. Or do you only go back to the basic of cooking on an old oil barrel you found in a field?

Back to basics...only salt and pepper. No rubs or sauces?

It seems in many cases "back to basics" just means I don't want you to use anything different than what I'm using.

SirPorkaLot
02-05-2010, 08:20 AM
"Back to basics"

Interesting term. What exactly are the basics and who gets to decide what basics were. How basic is basic?

If you really went back to the basics then you're cooking in a hole in the ground over whatever wood you can find. Or do you only go back to the basic of cooking on an old oil barrel you found in a field?

Back to basics...only salt and pepper. No rubs or sauces?

It seems in many cases "back to basics" just means I don't want you to use anything different than what I'm using.

Touche'

very valid points.

Spydermike72
02-05-2010, 08:44 AM
as an FYI, many of the board members do look at the forums on a reguar basis, they may not post often, they do want to stay in touch with what members think, I am not sure how this or any other rule vote may go, we will see...... some people think that we the board make up the agenda item rule requests, these are all from the membership, we just vote for or against what is presented to us... Linda Mulane collected this information from KCBS members at the rules meeting last month....

Thanks Gene, but based on the comments on this forum it seems that the exact opposite happened at the Rules Meeting...

Jacked UP BBQ
02-05-2010, 08:45 AM
Ditto that

outlaw pellets, electric blowers, stokers, gurus. Let's go back to basics, and see where the chips fall then.

If the do allow propane, I am bringing my fish cooker, and gonna boil me some ribs! :evil:


I will proudly say that I can kick ass with a FEC or charcoal and wood. The cooker is not the answer, it is the cook.

NateOwsley
02-05-2010, 08:56 AM
I am completely against using propane or electric as a source of heat for competition. I can see some of Ford's points. But money should not be the end all for every situation. Here are my reasons why.

-I like knowing that I know the true meaning of bbq vs. grilling, something that the majority of americans don't. If we allow propane and electricity you can kiss that goodbye.
-Currently most competitions have a backyard competition as well. I know for me this was the first thing I entered and it hooked me enough to join KCBS and start competing. So I don't know if the train of thought that it will bring more joe q public's into the fold is really that valid.
-If things work out the way that Ford said they will then more restaurant rigs will show up and what will that do for entry fee's? They may go up. Expanding on that and my last point, I don't know how many joe q public's are going to show up with their propane weber if they are sitting next to a $10K ole hickory pit.
-Plus with the popularity that competition has going right now with TLC's pitmasters and the food network shows we would be in danger of losing the prestige that being a competitive bbq cooker has. If anyone can enter and compete with the $75 propane grill that they bought from walmart then why would a big time sponsor want to put forth any money? That's like Crayola sponsoring a coloring contest for Monet and 8 year old Johnny.
-plus why wouldn't anyone just bring their camper and cook everything in their propane oven if they had the option?
-I also see propane as a potential safety issue. Even if it hasn't happened yet, it only takes one death because of an explosion to ruin the image of competition bbq. Expanding on that maybe the use of propane assisted starters should be banned as well.
Having said all this, if it had to happen, I would be in favor of maybe two divisions of competition, one for charcoal and stick burners and the other for alternative fuels like propane and electricity.

WineMaster
02-05-2010, 09:16 AM
I dont agree, people keep sayin that Propane isnt BBQ. If you look at the term BBQ, isnt a bbq a gathering of good people to enjoy fellowship on a nice sunny day. Isnt it more about being with friends and having a good time. The product is just smoked meat with some sauce on it. They say on many shows about bbq, that bbq is low and slow. Grilling is hot and fast. In the last couple of months, I have read more about hot and fast cooking than I have about low and slow. Kinda confusing why people are changing how they cook, but are so closed minded about what they cook on. I guess I say bring on the Propane, if good people come with it.

Dan

G$
02-05-2010, 09:17 AM
Can't - KCBS has a rule about open flame and digging a pit. If we outlaw guru's and augers and forced air - insulated smokers will be next, then the gauge of steel allowed on the smoke chamber, then a pit itself. And what about equipment outside the pit itself? No campers or trailers. Can we have cots?

Am I exaggerating? Guess that's subjective too.



Why is there no line in the sand in between "Hole in the ground" and "anything goes"?

You are 100% correct, this is somewhat subjective, but that doesn't mean you can't pick a spot on that continuum, subjectively, and say "this best represents the spirit of American Barbeque". I think you can. And I think that line doesn't include Gas and Electric as part of the cooking and cooking control process.

If the goal is to get the largest contests, with the biggest prize pool, and the most exposure, then "let it roll" is the way to go. No doubt about it.

If you want to balance some sense of rustic heritage with the reality of the modern times, you need to pick a point somewhere else along the line. This doesn't require writing rules to the minutiae.

As always, just my opinion. Good discussion as always.

Mustang Sally
02-05-2010, 09:25 AM
I can see pros and cons. But at the end of the day my vote would be NO propane. If we do allow propane then open it up to electric and everything else. Then let's just have a meat contest - becasue IMHO we couldn't call it BBQ.

Alexa RnQ
02-05-2010, 10:33 AM
money should not be the end all for every situation.
Hear, hear.

Why is there no line in the sand in between "Hole in the ground" and "anything goes"?
http://www.divaherself.com/nodyes.gif

I would say that there is -- it's the current rules.

KCBS has already made changes with the times to allow things like pellet cookers etc., and those changes are still a subject of continuous debate. Why heap on more changes that blur the line with backyard grilling, further confusing the core concept that this organization was intended to preserve?

I would far rather see KCBS fully utilize the potential of their current Competitor Series, set up expressly to allow entry-level contestants to participate on their existing equipment.

FatBoyz
02-05-2010, 11:45 AM
If propane is allowed, then can I use butane? I can 100% promise you that if gas is allowed, you'll see me crisping up my chicken skin or setting my sauce with a torch.

Smoked Chicken Brulee!!!!

http://www.cookware-online.co.uk/images/product/main/KCBTKITCP.jpg
oh yea that never happens now!!! right can you feel the sarcasum

FatBoyz
02-05-2010, 11:51 AM
i have to say i dont want any electric alowed on cookers... no guru no fans nuthin... and i can say this because i used all of them. I do understand thay are a tool to help but i think that you dont need help... wood and charcoal... and your good to go...that being said i will be doind my chicken on my treiger this year lol...

Yakfishingfool
02-05-2010, 12:10 PM
I just read through all this and thought I'd pop in my two cents. There are really two basic issues here. One financial and one traditional. In a time of ever decreasing membership and dues collection, KCBS has to look at expanding their base in order to continue to be successful as a business. Only they can decide if it is their mission or not to allow different fuel sources in and then we, as members, have to decide with our dollars whether we will continue to support that vision.

Tradition - change is always hard. Traditions are what keep cultures alive and families together. Think of the Jews over all those years of persecution and their continued existence and then think about your own family traditions around the holidays. Those are powerful feelings and are not without significant value, emotionally, and ultimately financially as we choose where to spend our money.

So what to do? Here are a couple of my thoughts. First, BBQ is about cooking. Traditionalists will say it is over an open flame, low and slow, modernists may say it is about the product and not the means. So let KCBS open it to alternative forms of combustion. Maybe to begin with we have two divisions. Non-electric/gas powered, such as traditional wood, coals and lump, and then an everything else section - gas, electric, pellet poopers, etc. And we keep them separate for a bit. Maybe having a 75/25 split in awards or split based on numbers in the division. 25 of each gets a 50/50 split of prizes, there will be more teams so maybe more $$. And as the "tradition" of split comps continues, maybe some day we can just put out the whole field and let the best food win. Just my two cents.

Personally, I think anything other than the wood/coal/lump is an advantage. Whether it's through sleep or timing or whatever.

Anybody can make good food, only a few are Pitmasters!

Yak

Ford
02-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Anybody can make good food, only a few are Pitmasters!

Yak
There have been a lot of comments about "pitmasters" being people that can maintain a fire. So I'm not picking on this comment so much as asking all those who think being a "pitmaster" means cooking on charcoal or coal or wood.

By 10 years old I knew how to make a good clean burning campfire with lots of coals and very little smoke. Not for BBQ but just for pleasure. It's an art to learn how to maintain a clean burning wood fire, I agree. But I just don't see how it applies to charcoal or coal or using draft fans of chutes to add charcoal or anything like that.

I think it takes a lot more than building a fire to be a pitmaster. A pitmaster picks out the meat, trims it as needed, seasons it and cooks it and sauces it if necessary. A pitmaster teaches others how to do basics such as carving meat for serving as well. A true pitmaster is an artist and is judged on the final product and not how the food was cooked.

At the end of the day a pit is a pit. Nothing that says it's an offset, upright, Pellet fed, gas fed. Either a pit is a hole in the ground or it's all of the above. Now people can selectively choose to say they believe a pit should be wood burning (pellets are wood) or all manual (no gas assist, fans, chutes to feed the fire, etc.).

There's some good books out there that talk about the traditions of BBQ and every region has different traditions and definitions of what they think BBQ is. But nationally it's a combination of all different styles and as we continue to progress BBQ cooking will continue to evolve. Eventually the carbon police will outlaw open fires and we'll all be using gas and even then with restrictions. And our Tofu will taste so great. Adds new meaning to "my cold dead hands" doesn't it.

tmcmaster
02-06-2010, 07:29 AM
I would like to offer that the same logic thread that can get from "back to basics" to "Hole in the ground" also extends the other way from "It's about the product, not the process" to "Just buy it and turn it in."

I'll be in the peanlty box now.

falldownbbq
02-06-2010, 07:41 AM
I will proudly say that I can kick ass with a FEC or charcoal and wood. The cooker is not the answer, it is the cook.


was it you guys or was it not that i followed on the NE circuit and got has a helluva a year cooking on a spice?

how is it that a team can cook on an FE a Spice (with no stoker joker) or a side box char griller and still win consistantly?

do what you want... unless you burn it or send pork in raw there is no cooker that is giong to change anything other then make the people piling on wood and coal at 3amm and being jealous of someone sitting inside of their trailer/motorhome sleeping..

you wanna change and make it faster hi temp cook.. then you wont be jealous of someone who can set it and forget it.!

Jeff_in_KC
02-06-2010, 04:11 PM
oh yea that never happens now!!! right can you feel the sarcasum

If it's allowed, I'm gonna use it not to crisp skins but to help soften and remove fat from the back of my chicken skins before they go on the cooker.

Divemaster
02-08-2010, 08:49 AM
as an FYI, many of the board members do look at the forums on a reguar basis, they may not post often, they do want to stay in touch with what members think, I am not sure how this or any other rule vote may go, we will see...... some people think that we the board make up the agenda item rule requests, these are all from the membership, we just vote for or against what is presented to us... Linda Mulane collected this information from KCBS members at the rules meeting last month....

Approximately 70 out of 11,000+ members. Most not even cooks. That's crappier numbers than the voter turn-out.

I was at the 'Rules Meeting' at the banquet... If I recall the discussion on propane took less than 30 seconds... Probably closer to 15... Yes they took a 'vote'... It was voted down by the membership that was attending.

I feel that I can honestly say that if they passed this based on the 'information gathering' they did there, I won't be renewing my membership... Yet another showing of how little representation we actually get...

PCDoctor_1979
02-08-2010, 10:05 AM
According to the quick notes on the KCBS site this morning, the board said "no" to propane by a vote of 8 to 3

G$
02-08-2010, 10:41 AM
According to the quick notes on the KCBS site this morning, the board said "no" to propane by a vote of 8 to 3

Looks like the "Save the petroleum hydrocarbons" campaign worked. (Sorry Todd).

Plowboy
02-08-2010, 10:46 AM
Looks like the "Save the petroleum hydrocarbons" campaign worked. (Sorry Todd).

Better go return my creme brulee torch.

I was thinking this morning that if propane is ever allowed, you could see propane food warmers used to hold product as well as the torches. All would be legal based on the rule that was motioned and seconded.