PDA

View Full Version : Possible KCBS rules changes


Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 09:56 AM
I see Chatham Bill & others talking about potential rules changes, so I
thought I'd start a few...

Bill is right, the judging lacks some to be desired (or a lot to be desired).

1.
What about changing the scoring system from a 1-9 based to a 7-10
based like MBN (old MIM)? This would reduce/eliminate the variance
problem and reduce the "old judges tough scoring" problem. Define what
a 7 means, what an 8 means, 9 and then 10 likewise (ala. MBN).

2.
Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...


Just a thought.

RubMeTender
02-01-2010, 10:00 AM
I can't help but think getting rid of the garnish would be nice.
If it's really all about the meat, then it's all about the meat.
It might look pretty, but how often do you normally eat BBQ off of a putting green?

Merl
02-01-2010, 10:07 AM
Lake Dog,
If you look back, KCBS had a 7, 8, 9 judging system, when the instruction was to begin at 9 and judge down. The cooks absolutely hated and the board listened. We removed the point to begin and asked judges to judge based upon the quality of what was presented to them. This actually appear (in my opinion) to be a superior system. I did not have a vote, as this was done before I was on the Board, but I support the action as a good step. It resolved may issues where were objectionable to cooks and judges alike.

I believe that KCBS is not likely to go back unless some overwhelming reason was brought forward. The 987 did not work well in KCBS in the past. But things and times do change. I think the best response would be continued education for our CBJ's.

As to garnish, that is a yearly question. This will be discussed by the BOD Friday at the BOD meeting. I will tell you this. KCBS is unique, and we there is an attitude from membership to celebrate what makes KCBS unique.

KCBS only changes rules annually. The Rules meeting was held in January and will be presented to the Board in February for 2010.

Please keep track of ideas and present them at the next rules meeting, which may be in KC at the 25th Annual Banquet.
Yours in Que. (speaking only for myself)
Merl

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 10:28 AM
Thanks Merl, didnt know about it previously being 7-9.... Agreed, continued
education for CBJ's will definitely help/reduce the problems.

I must admit, the garnish allowed confuses me a little. Mind you, I've gotten all 8's
and 9's in presentation, so this isn't a complaint. It's an honest question of "why
is it allowed". I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice
dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what
a beautiful color contrast. However, as much as we'd like to ignore it and say "it
doesn't come in to play", there is no way that it can't, even if ever-so-slightly....

Respectfully,


The Dawg

Ford
02-01-2010, 10:39 AM
I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what a beautiful color contrast.

The Dawg
If I read this right you just said the meat looks better. So a judge is still just judging the meat and not how the parsley looks.

Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation. Just read an article about a lady here in Grand Rapids MI who works with the local businesses to improve appearance of their product for photo sessions. Sounded a lot like making a good box. I thoight about hiring her for making some presentations of my food for my new website and brochures. I think the major grocery guys and top end restaurants have a bigger budget than I do.

Jorge
02-01-2010, 10:48 AM
Thanks Merl, didnt know about it previously being 7-9.... Agreed, continued
education for CBJ's will definitely help/reduce the problems.

I must admit, the garnish allowed confuses me a little. Mind you, I've gotten all 8's
and 9's in presentation, so this isn't a complaint. It's an honest question of "why
is it allowed". I'll admit, BBQ looks much better garnished. It just does. That nice
dark green background, "framing" the reddish/brown or reddish/yellow Q, wow what
a beautiful color contrast. However, as much as we'd like to ignore it and say "it
doesn't come in to play", there is no way that it can't, even if ever-so-slightly....

Respectfully,


The Dawg

I've got no problem with garnish, I've got no problem doing without it either. IBCA garnish is a sheet of foil, that works. I like a box of parsley too, especially if there is a slight imperfection that could benefit from some camouflage.

I just don't see garnish being a big issue in the grand scheme of things right now.

Scottie
02-01-2010, 10:54 AM
I've got no problem with garnish, I've got no problem doing without it either. IBCA garnish is a sheet of foil, that works. I like a box of parsley too, especially if there is a slight imperfection that could benefit from some camouflage.

I just don't see garnish being a big issue in the grand scheme of things right now.



You sure your from Texas? I am not sure if I have ever heard a Texan say they like garnish..... :shock:

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 10:54 AM
If I read this right you just said the meat looks better. So a judge is still just judging the meat and not how the parsley looks.

Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation. Just read an article about a lady here in Grand Rapids MI who works with the local businesses to improve appearance of their product for photo sessions. Sounded a lot like making a good box. I thoight about hiring her for making some presentations of my food for my new website and brochures. I think the major grocery guys and top end restaurants have a bigger budget than I do.

Ford, respectfully, if it looks better, then the garnish was taken into
account.

Jorge
02-01-2010, 11:04 AM
You sure your from Texas? I am not sure if I have ever heard a Texan say they like garnish..... :shock:

hehe, I take some heat for it.

I think garnish is one of the things that makes KCBS unique, and the option still gives a cook the choice. In a lot of cases (but certainly not all)those that object to the use of garnish just don't want to mess with it, no matter what their stated objection is.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 11:36 AM
hehe, I take some heat for it.

I think garnish is one of the things that makes KCBS unique, and the option still gives a cook the choice. In a lot of cases (but certainly not all)those that object to the use of garnish just don't want to mess with it, no matter what their stated objection is.

Making KCBS unique, definitely. It does. And, yes, the cook could opt
out and present it sans garnish. I'm guessing that there's probably not
been a 1st place in any category in the last 12 months where someone
had it sans garnish. Just a guess, but I'll bet 'ya a $1 on that one.

As to those that object, for me, it's truly about the Q. I became accustomed
to judging/seeing BBQ sans garnish (MIM/MBN). It struck me right off as both different
and NICE, but nice in the "the green compliments the Q therefore it looks
better" way, which therefore takes garnish into account. Mind you,
I've done color for a living. Mine will never go in with a light green
background, never. And, as a result, I've always gotten 8's and 9's
in presentation. Some may, yes. For me, it's about judging Q against
Q, nothing more, nothing less. It actually takes one of the things that
a judge can screw up out of their hands. Lets not even begin to discuss
whether having something un-cooked presents a health hazard to the
judges...

The guys who complain about judging should jump all over this.

Scottie
02-01-2010, 11:40 AM
If you like the no nonesense from MBA, then why do they do the dog and pony show at teams sites? Why do they fluff up their smokers for presentation of the hog, ribs or shoulder with all of that garnish inthe smoer. I guarantee you that to buy grrens, fruits, et al for a MBN contests, costs way more than the garnsih does for KCBS.

Let's face it, garnsih separates the KCBS from other sanctioning bodies that came after the formation of KCBS. So for those that want the rules to change like the others. Then go and join the other sanctioning bodies. I for one like the KCBS garnish.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Guys, from what I've seen in earlier discussions/debates/arguments regarding garnish,
the best argument for it is the "making KCBS unique". It absolutely does that. There's
nothing wrong with that argument, either.

However, to somehow think that it's even possible for a human being to not take it
into account is like asking a guy to see a picture of a nude woman and not take her
... breasts ... into account. Can't happen. The green compliments the natural
colors of BBQ and is a direct contrast to the white box. It therefore is a frame, and
there is no way for the eye of a human not to take it into account.

Perhaps if it's decided that it is to stay, consider rewording the rule so that it IS
taken into account. At least we're being fair and honest.

The arguments against it stack up pretty high. I'll just list a few:

1. judging something else other than Q
2. gives the judges something to mess up on (the way its currently worded)
3. introduces the remote possibility (I admit, it's remote) of e coli or other BAD things

lesser arguments

4. gives new cooks/teams something else to fubar, refer to BBQ PitMasters for vivid
5. gives experienced cooks/teams something else to purchase (more $$$), and in
my case more to literally throw away.

Personally, and very respectfully to those who want/like the garnish, I'd like to see
BBQ judged against BBQ and absolutely no way anything else can be taken into
account.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 11:49 AM
If you like the no nonesense from MBA, then why do they do the dog and pony show at teams sites? Why do they fluff up their smokers for presentation of the hog, ribs or shoulder with all of that garnish inthe smoer. I guarantee you that to buy grrens, fruits, et al for a MBN contests, costs way more than the garnsih does for KCBS.

Let's face it, garnsih separates the KCBS from other sanctioning bodies that came after the formation of KCBS. So for those that want the rules to change like the others. Then go and join the other sanctioning bodies. I for one like the KCBS garnish.

It absolutely does (first paragraph). That's a huge reason that I only
compete in 1 MBN contest. The on-site is unnecessary and stupid. We're
not discussing that, are we? I thought the topic up top was KCBS?!...

Scottie
02-01-2010, 11:50 AM
Personally, and very respectfully to those who want/like the garnish, I'd like to see
BBQ judged against BBQ and absolutely no way anything else can be taken into
account.


then how can you cook and/or judge a MBA event?

Scottie
02-01-2010, 11:54 AM
The topic is about KCBS. But it seems like you are talking out both sides of your mouth right now? I am confused...

don't get me wrong, each sanctioing body has a place. But for those to come along and say that KCBS needs to change because of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 11:55 AM
then how can you cook and/or judge a MBA event?

Cook? I cook because we have a pretty good sized one 3 miles from
my house and 1/2 the town demands that I'm there. That's why. As
to judge, I no longer judge except a few contests (not MBN) where
I've worked with the organizers closely. Again, they'd have a fit if I
weren't there. I'm just not interested in judging any longer.

Does that answer your question?

Again, I thought this was a KCBS discussion, and not a personal thing, nor
a MBN thing.

My personal preference as to style is FBA.


> The topic is about KCBS. But it seems like you are talking out both sides of your mouth right now? I am confused...
>
> don't get me wrong, each sanctioing body has a place. But for those to come along and say that KCBS needs to change because > of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.

I frankly am of the opinion that KCBS is the premier sanctioning body. If you've read something different and
I've confused you, I'm sorry. However, nothing is perfect. You cannot and never will please everyone. I know
that, and it doesn't hurt my feelings if you disagree. However, I dont care for the personal jabs. That tends
to tick me off.

I didnt say that "KCBS needs to change". I'm merely suggesting that they consider it. Merl hit it dead on (the
counter side), and I respect that, and I understand. But, I'll be honest, there's many more wonderful and unique
things about KCBS than the need for garnish. LOTS. I dont think it would lose it's cache if it were to drop
garnish.

You might find it interesting that I've proposed to at very least 14 organizers that they either adopt KCBS rules
and sanctioning and/or that they change from GBA and MBN to KCBS. One of the places that I referenced above
is changing this coming year to KCBS "style" as a result of my efforts. They want a year of "lets try this" before
they go the sanctioning route.... F Y I. I took CASI from 1 sanctioned cookoff in the state to now 8. I plan
on doing similar for/with KCBS.

Capn Kev
02-01-2010, 11:56 AM
Lake Dog,
If you look back, KCBS had a 7, 8, 9 judging system, when the instruction was to begin at 9 and judge down. The cooks absolutely hated and the board listened. We removed the point to begin and asked judges to judge based upon the quality of what was presented to them. This actually appear (in my opinion) to be a superior system. I did not have a vote, as this was done before I was on the Board, but I support the action as a good step. It resolved may issues where were objectionable to cooks and judges alike.

I believe that KCBS is not likely to go back unless some overwhelming reason was brought forward. The 987 did not work well in KCBS in the past. But things and times do change. I think the best response would be continued education for our CBJ's.

As to garnish, that is a yearly question. This will be discussed by the BOD Friday at the BOD meeting. I will tell you this. KCBS is unique, and we there is an attitude from membership to celebrate what makes KCBS unique.

KCBS only changes rules annually. The Rules meeting was held in January and will be presented to the Board in February for 2010.

Please keep track of ideas and present them at the next rules meeting, which may be in KC at the 25th Annual Banquet.
Yours in Que. (speaking only for myself)
Merl

Thanks for the info Merl. Good to see you the other night in Parker. Thanks for putting on the class! In your post above, you touched on one of the questions I failed to ask before the end of the night. ...and that is, is there a "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status?

Also, the only minor complaint I had about last Friday night's CBJ class was that we were not really presented with a box that would have score 9's. So how is a judge supposed to know what "great" is if they have no sense of it going into a competition? I may have been a bit biased due to the fact that I have cooked competitions and have seen and tasted some winning entries. :wink:

Your insight is appreciated.

Kevin

Alexa RnQ
02-01-2010, 12:08 PM
KCBS needs to change because of garnish? It's never going to happen folks. Not as long as Carolyn Wells has a part with the KCBS.

Hear, hear.
It's just garnish, it's not rocket science. And yes, it IS fully optional, as we have seen teams submit naked boxes and be highly rewarded for them.

The "contamination" and "waste" arguments are incredibly weak. When KCBS did respond to a contamination scare, the decision was reamed up one side and down the other -- no way to please everyone either way, it seems. Somebody with a fragile enough immune system to worry about possible contamination from garnish has absolutely no business judging a contest where food is prepared by unknown methods, in open conditions. And when it costs a cool thousand bucks to roll out of the driveway for one of these gigs, $12 for lavish garnish supplies is not even a factor.

There are multiple other sanctioning bodies that are available if garnish is such a terribly onerous task. But as my last two years of box photos and score sheets show, it's just not about the lettuce.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 12:30 PM
> Hear, hear.
> It's just garnish, it's not rocket science. And yes, it IS fully optional, as we
> have seen teams submit naked boxes and be highly rewarded for them.

I'll lose my $1 here (on the bet), but has there actually been a team who took
1st place in a category sans garnish?


> The "contamination" and "waste" arguments are incredibly weak.

Even I said it was weak (well, I think I said remote).

> When KCBS did respond to a contamination scare, the decision
> was reamed up one side and down the other -- no way to please
> everyone either way, it seems.

Yep, you cant win for losing sometimes. Agreed 100%.

> Somebody with a fragile enough immune system to worry about
> possible contamination from garnish has absolutely no business
> judging a contest where food is prepared by unknown methods,
> in open conditions.

On the one hand, I agree with you. HOWEVER, coming from someone
who is rarely sick with anything (maybe 1 in 10 years I'll get a little
cold), I had the wonderful (sarcasm) experience of contracting salmonella
about 20 years ago. I wont draw you a picture... Lets just say it's
disgusting, nasty, and can kill someone weaker than I was. It was a
complete fluke, but it happened. It's something for the BOD to consider
(taking away that possibility).


> And when it costs a cool thousand bucks to roll out of the driveway
> for one of these gigs, $12 for lavish garnish supplies is not even a factor.

I dont know about you, but we dont get decent greens around here. I
pre-order mine 45 miles away, then drive to get them, and drive back.
That $12 bunch of greens cost me another $10 in gas alone, not to mention
my time in the evening (because I work M-F 6am-5pm). It's just one more
thing on the list...

> There are multiple other sanctioning bodies that are available if garnish is
> such a terribly onerous task.

It's not such an onerous task, and as I stated above, I'm of the opinion that
KCBS is the premier sanctioning body. However, that doesn't mean that there's
not room for improvement. Hell, even I can stand to lose a few pounds.......


> But as my last two years of box photos and score sheets show, it's just
> not about the lettuce.

Never said it was. Plus, appearance score is weighted very low....

Alexa RnQ
02-01-2010, 01:15 PM
The prospect of contracting salmonella is far greater when patronizing local restaurants. Funny, HD is all over our butts at some contests, most usually in counties where restaurants are swarming with rats and cockroaches -- which I haven't seen in any BBQ camp.

Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So? Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own. Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up to 17 hours one way to find one. Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

As for improvement -- well, now we finally come to the "meat" of the matter. I find that as meat scores improve, concerns over garnish diminish. Nobody turns in 100% perfect meat every time not even Myron. Perhaps that's more difficult than arguing about garnish in the off-season.

Jeff_in_KC
02-01-2010, 01:42 PM
I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?

weconway
02-01-2010, 01:52 PM
First off, let me say that I just took my CBJ class and have no actual experience. Take what I say with a grain of salt...

I found it very confusing on how to judge based on one CBJ class. I am in no way saying my instruction was inadequate, just that the KCBS doesn't exactly do a good job telling you what the scoring system is supposed to mean. I understand that the CBJ is a ticket to a judging apprenticeship where you learn the finer details from the other experienced judges at comps.

As a future competitor, I learned from the class that garnish is for more than good looks. It keeps the meat from sitting in a puddle of juices and sauce and keeps it from sliding around the box. Thus the final product will be better packaged before serving.

I don't think garnish should affect scores, but hundreds of cook teams know that presentation will have a subtle effect on the perception of your product. I think the KCBS does then "require" garnish by default.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 01:53 PM
The prospect of contracting salmonella is far greater when patronizing local restaurants. Funny, HD is all over our butts at some contests, most usually in counties where restaurants are swarming with rats and cockroaches -- which I haven't seen in any BBQ camp.

Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So? Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own. Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up to 17 hours one way to find one. Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

As for improvement -- well, now we finally come to the "meat" of the matter. I find that as meat scores improve, concerns over garnish diminish. Nobody turns in 100% perfect meat every time not even Myron. Perhaps that's more difficult than arguing about garnish in the off-season.

I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

Gowan
02-01-2010, 01:54 PM
You might find it interesting that I've proposed to at very least 14 organizers that they either adopt KCBS rules and sanctioning and/or that they change from GBA and MBN to KCBS. One of the places that I referenced above is changing this coming year to KCBS "style" as a result of my efforts. They want a year of "lets try this" before they go the sanctioning route.... F Y I. I took CASI from 1 sanctioned cookoff in the state to now 8. I plan on doing similar for/with KCBS.

I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 01:55 PM
I'm all in favor of keeping garnish too. I like the fact we (KCBS) are unique and I'll support Carolyn in this as long as I'm around.

Yes, I'm aware that it is a meat contest. Someone said something to the effect that if the garnish makes the meat look better, a judge took the garnish into account. My response to that is basically "big deal". It's not a sauce contest either but our shiney, perfectly placed sauce on the meat makes the meat look better. Not burning it makes the meat look better. There are a lot of things we can do to make the meat look better. Why are we bashing garnish when it's only ONE thing we do to improve the appearance of our boxes? If we outlaw garnish, sauce better be next. See how ridiculous this is getting?

Jeff, I completely agree with you, 100%!!! However, please read how
the judges are instructed. Regarding garnish, they cannot abide by this.
It cannot be humanly done. So, I asked, either consider dropping the
garnish, or please reword the rules/instructions.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 01:57 PM
I'm sure we all appreciate your enthusiasm. However, there are quite a few folks who have been very active in promoting KCBS here in Georgia for many years, and have been doing a fine job. You might want to get to know some of them before you don the mantle of KCBS prophet for our state.

No offense, just sayin...

-Gowan

Gowan,

I am not a KCBS profit for the state. Will never be. I'm work with
promoters and event coordinators and assist them in which style to
choose and why one makes sense vs. another.

Y'alls focus obviously has been N GA. Finally there's Waynesboro
and Oconee in the central part of the state. They're new, and
small, and wonderful, and I had nothing to do with either.

I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That's
it. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs here
in the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies,
the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about
them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning
in the future...

No offense taken. Like I said, I didnt claim to be KCBS profit, I'm not
a KCBS profit, and I never will be a KCBS profit.

Jorge
02-01-2010, 01:59 PM
I, for one, am not arguing. It really doesnt matter to me. I merely
posed the question (reference at the very top):

Is it time to ditch garnish? There honestly is no way to ignore it.
The others have it gone...

> Getting garnish is more difficult for you. So?
You were the one making the statement. I was merely pointing out
that your statement was off and false, at least in my case. I wasn't
whining. I was, in essence, addressing your point.


> Hell, getting TO a contest is more difficult for us -- we drive up
> to 17 hours one way to find one.

I believe ya, and we can't do it. No way, no how. Dont have the
luxury of that much time away from work. If we cant get to it within
a 2 or 3 hour drive, we can't get there... But, that's us. That's about
99% of the reason why I work with city leaders, project managers, etc
who organize these so as to *grow* more cookoffs (because I enjoy
competing and can't drive that far).


> Getting sauce and rub is more difficult for me -- we make our own.

I special order the meat, and I have all the spices/rubs ordered and
delivered (Pendereys, etc). Come to think of it, I cannot think of a
competition we've competed in within the last 5+- yeas where we
used ANY consumable product purchased at the local store (other than
chuck roast we use in chili). No biggie. Always make my own sauce,
but I'm trying a combination of Blues Hog & BH Tennesse Red for
giggles... No local store carry that. Hell, I dont think it's carried
anywhere in the state... Always my own rub, using Pendereys and
Mild Bills spices (I'm not in Texas, they ship them to me). What, is
this now a "compare who jumps through more hoops to compete"
thing? That's silly, unnecessary, and completely off topic.

Wait. My bad. I use chicken thighs purchased at the local store
for the KCBS cookoff. My bad. Ok, chicken thighs and chuck roast
used in chili. That's it. Not even so much as black pepper is purchased here....



I merely asked "Is it time to ditch garnish?".


Somehow this was mistaken as an assault to the
very foundation of KCBS. It's not, nor was it intended to be. It's not
even a gripe about ordering and fetching greens. It's not.


I'm done. I'm tired of defending myself vs. talking about a topic.

Really. Simply this: The way the rules read (for judges), it's
impossible to do what they're being asked. As a result (of this and other
stuff), many teams either despise judges or the judging process (not
me). I posed a question as to whether it should be reconsidered.

No more; no less.


I'm done trying to discuss something when it's apparent very
few will actually discuss the topic. I'll drop it. Matter of fact:


Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't know that anyone took offense to your question. I think they did wonder where it was coming from based on some of your reasoning. I know I did, due to references to other organizations. I thought it was a fairly reasonable and friendly give and take.

Jorge, yours absolutely WAS (reasonable [more than fairly too] and
friendly give and take).

Jorge
02-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Moderator, is there a way I can delete this whole topic/thread?

I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 02:19 PM
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.

J,

Thanks.

I didnt mean to urinate on folks' wheaties. I didnt mean to call into
question the very foundation of KCBS. As I said more than a few times,
I think KCBS is the premier BBQ sanctioning body.

I happen to think that good debate is a good thing, and now is the
time to debate topics such as this, not during a season.

I actually like the argument of it (garnish) being a unique characteristic of
KCBS. However, other than this, noone has presented any other
argument. When they do, they're basically saying "rules dont matter
than they cannot be enforced." To that I say "well then, how about
changing the rules so that they can be enforced".

Every sanctioning body has it's *issues*, and the others that I'm
familiar with have MANY more serious issues than KCBS.

I was merely posing a question. I will not defend this any longer, and
I will certainly not defend myself any longer, as frankly it's unnecessary
to do so.

Scottie
02-01-2010, 02:22 PM
I don't think that is necessary, or warranted. Perhaps another moderator will view the thread differently.


I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 02:50 PM
I agree Jorge. I think everyone remained calm and there was no name calling or other things that bring a thread down.

Let's face it, I believe that Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform to what the sanctioning bodies have done? I may be corrected on this, but I know that for sure FBA was formed in the last 10 years and baiscally modeled their body after the KCBS, except for no garnish. Now maybe some sanctioning body in Texas was before the KCBS, but I do not think any of them are still in existence. I don't think that IBCA is older, as I want to say that Lynn stated it was after the KCBS was formed. Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. I guess the way that I llok at it is, if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest. Or in the alternative, don't use garnish, as it is clearly stated int he rules that garnish is not required. But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

***Please understand that this post was in no way any slight to any other sanctioning body.

Scottie,

Respectfully:

> Garnish in KCBS for their blind judging is unique and that is
> what separates KCBS from other sanctioning bodies.

While it is unique, IMHO you think too little of KCBS if this is what
separates KCBS from the others... KCBS is a superior organization,
with SUPERIOR judging, process, flow, etc. SUPERIOR. None
close. MIM was (IMHO), but not there. Then they decided to ditch
it, and so what was left became MBN... I digress.

> if you don't like it, don't cook KCBS contest.

I imagine those who dont like it dont cook in it... What's your point?
Me/us perhaps? In what words above did you perhaps derive that I or my teammates dont "like it"? If I didnt like it, I wouldnt care enough to
pose the question in the first place. Matter of fact, the farthest
contests for me to compete are those sanctioned by KCBS. We go there
because we enjoy them MORE, not less.


> Lake Dog wants KCBS to conform

There! You articulated it. Thanks. Strangely, I hate conformity itself,
because ordinarily conformity breeds bland. It's usually conformity for
the sake of conformity. So, I worded my initial question wrong when
I stated the others are doing it... Conformity be damned (IMHO).

HOWEVER, I am asking that they either re-word the instructions/rules
so as to a) embrace the darned difference that garnish brings and get
it in there, or b) remove it altogether, as there is no way a human can
judge it and not take it into account (the way the rules state it today).


> But to make call to arms over it, I am not sure if that is correct either...

Exactly. I'm not! Didn't! Never did (call to arms). That's what annoyed
me. I'm being raked over the coals for no reason, other than apparently
this is a sacred issue. My bad.


Sarcasm <with a humoristic intent> coming:

There. There's another suggestion. Note the rules in the rule book
that are sacred and question the foundation of the organization. That
way we'll know to not ask the question.


-The Dawg

Gowan
02-01-2010, 02:52 PM
I was merely trying to explain to folks that I'm not anti-KCBS. That'sit. With any luck though, we'll have a few more KCBS cookoffs herein the center of the state in the next few years. And, my appologies, the damned new Macon one went MBN vs. KCBS. I found out about them too late... Still working on that one. Maybe a joint sanctioning in the future...



No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf

BRBBQ
02-01-2010, 03:10 PM
Thanks for the info Merl. Good to see you the other night in Parker. Thanks for putting on the class! In your post above, you touched on one of the questions I failed to ask before the end of the night. ...and that is, is there a "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status?

Also, the only minor complaint I had about last Friday night's CBJ class was that we were not really presented with a box that would have score 9's. So how is a judge supposed to know what "great" is if they have no sense of it going into a competition? I may have been a bit biased due to the fact that I have cooked competitions and have seen and tasted some winning entries. :wink:

Your insight is appreciated.

Kevin
Some of the kcbs contest's struggle to get 100&#37; certified kcbs judges, some events struggle getting enough judges. I've been at a few events where the organizers find people off the street to judge. The people off the street don't have a clue, someone at their table is explaining the rules and what to look for. I'm guessing the low scores are comming from these folks, not the certifed judges. Just look at KCBS Events for the year and you'll see not all events are 100% CBJ. Maybe this isn't FAIR:!: As far as refresher, maybe! NOT:!: Anyway if I judge 3 or more contest a year why would I want to take a refresher. Your comment^^^ "refresher" course required, or is there a minimum number of contests per year that a CBJ needs to fulfill in order to maintain their CBJ status? Some people would have to do a lot of driving in order to meet your criteria. Not every city has 10 contest a year:!:

Lake Dogs
02-01-2010, 03:10 PM
No worries, I figured you didn't intend to come off the way it sounded.

Your point about most KCBS events being in the northern half of the state is well taken. This isn't by design so much as circumstance. With the long established MIM/MBN shows, FBA gaining traction and now GBA popping up to offer an MBN-like all pork format on a KCBS budget there has been a lot of competition for sanctioning down South.

As for the Macon show, I doubt there is much chance of you swaying those folks since they have been tapped to become the new MBN Championship event in place of Memphis in May starting this year. I cooked there last fall with JOS (my first MBN experience) and I have to say I loved the showmanship aspect of the contest! Not much chance of my regular team doing whole hog though, since we are sponsored by Primo Grills.

Oh and sorry you felt like you were blasted for your initial post. These forums can be pretty contentious at times, and when you put up an opinion post the two best strategies seem to be either to be prepared to defend against all comers or just let your statement stand alone and not address any rebuttals. The good news is will tone down once the weather improves and everyone is busy cooking again instead of debating.

Aloha,

-gf

We have the same problem with not participating in whole hog too. It's
takes a 2nd large cooker, one that I'm just not ready to fund. I enjoy
the on-site, but as an opinion, I think it's unnecessary. It does add a
nice difference though... The other side is that it requires to cook a lot
more meat, especially if you plan to make finals. I loved the panic seen
by Trigg & whats-his-name on Pitmasters when they made rib finals
at Vienna...

I'll be darned, the only reason we didnt see you in Macon was $$$. We
just didnt have it this year. 2010 will be better, but the team has put
that one on our "wait and see what happens" list. Hey, if you liked that
event, you may enjoy the MBN one in Milledgeville. This is the one I
get shafted into cooking. Usually about 35 teams+-. Late October.

Will you guys be at Lake Oconee in September? That's now our #1
event, in an RV park on the lake. Being a Lake Sinclair type-o-guy, we
dont get a lakeside spot. However, it's a wonderful venue, with LOADS
of space for everyone. Matter of fact, if there is one problem with it,
we're almost too spread out.... KCBS, and Jay Weems does a GREAT
job with organizing it.

chopshop
02-01-2010, 03:43 PM
Maybe it's nitpicking but I like garnish. It improves presentation.

when people refer to a bed a parsley as a nice presentation it makes me laugh. I feel like a landscaper taking care of someones lawn. its useless, takes alot of time, is unfair to new teams starting out that dont know what to put in their boxes. I know that its written in the rules what an acceptable garnish is but thats just not enough, please no copy and pastes from the rule book. they might as well hand out astro turf pieces to lay in the box. the presentation of the meat should be about the meat, not who could line their parsley up better. I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish and parsley beds were never referred to as something that enhanced the presentation of anything. I BET AT PARSLEY CONTESTS THEY DONT LINE THEIR BOXES WITH BRISKET!!!!!

Alexa RnQ
02-01-2010, 04:14 PM
I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish
...Paul? Is that you?? :shock:




j/k :lol:

Smoke'n Ice
02-01-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm sorry, KCBS is not unique in the garnish area, PNWBA, which started at the same time, also allows garnish and uses a similar set of rules for judging, etc.

In TX most carry a paper towel roll to turn in to sop up the juices. Aint that grand, something has to keep the foil from getting soiled.

I have judged in TX and the boxes looked like a jumbled mess as the meat slides around and gets dumped. Of course, they don't judge appearance as the only score given is a 2 to 10. The instructions are if it looks like BBQ, smells like BBQ, tastes like BBQ, then it must be BBQ. Can't have no sauce or juice, must be dry as da bone. Score it 2 to 10.

Come cook if you want, I'll take KCBS/PNWBA with all the faults.

Coz
02-01-2010, 05:13 PM
The question of did any one win a category with out garnish recently didnt Smokin Cracker do that last year maybe even a G.C. remember now I have a short memory.

Finney
02-01-2010, 06:01 PM
i'm sorry, kcbs is not unique in the garnish area, pnwba, which started at the same time, also allows garnish and uses a similar set of rules for judging, etc.

kcbs - 1985
pnmbw - 1991

BRBBQ
02-01-2010, 06:43 PM
I wish they'd get rid of garnish it's a waste of money, for the team that is.
Usually it's just thrown away.

Gowan
02-01-2010, 06:51 PM
My personal take is garnish is good, but kale should be allowed. It's the perfect garnish - looks great, cheap, simple to prep and it takes a blowtorch to wilt the stuff. I use it exclusively in non-sanctioned contests and it takes less than three minutes for me to build a kale box, a fraction of the time required for parsley.

Jeff_in_KC
02-01-2010, 06:53 PM
when people refer to a bed a parsley as a nice presentation it makes me laugh.

Not me... I don't start laughing til I get the check at the awards ceremony confirming how nice my boxes look.

I feel like a landscaper taking care of someones lawn. its useless, takes alot of time, is unfair to new teams starting out that dont know what to put in their boxes.

Are you SERIOUS about this??? :shock: You think it's unfair to new teams who don't know what to put in their boxes??? Let me say this - and it's not a knock on new teams because we've ALL been there - but most new teams don't have a clue what to put in their boxes when it comes to garnish OR meat! That's just the way it is. And you know what... they LEARN. They can learn how to garnish just like they learn how to cook and what to cook. Like Phil says - anyone can cook great BBQ but you have to learn HOW to compete. Garnish is part of that. If we were gonna be fair to all the new teams, we'd explain step by step, give them our recipes and build their boxes for them.

I know that its written in the rules what an acceptable garnish is but thats just not enough, please no copy and pastes from the rule book. they might as well hand out astro turf pieces to lay in the box.

This I have proposed.

the presentation of the meat should be about the meat, not who could line their parsley up better. I spent lots of money and LOTS of time in culinary school learning how to garnish and parsley beds were never referred to as something that enhanced the presentation of anything.

So you spent money on culinary school and still can't make a parsley bed look good? :lol: It's still about the meat, regardless of whether or not parsley and lettuce are there.

I BET AT PARSLEY CONTESTS THEY DONT LINE THEIR BOXES WITH BRISKET!!!!!

How do you know? Maybe they do. Have you ever been to a parsley contest to be able to definitively make this statement? :wink:

chopshop
02-01-2010, 08:59 PM
So you spent money on culinary school and still can't make a parsley bed look good? :lol: It's still about the meat, regardless of whether or not parsley and lettuce are there.

well now i now who the parsley bandit is. when they were discussing the parsley topic at the kcbs banquet were you the guy holding the sign that said "parsley has feelings too!! LET THEM STAY IN THE BOX"

my boxes look good i hired the local landscaper to get them ready. I too was a new team( ocean county pig assassins) at the 06 guitarbeque and was unsure of what to put in the box for garnish. i think we added a few sprigs of parsley in fear of being disqualified for some silly garnish rule. i think we took a 4th in brisket and 6th in chicken. not bad for 3 drunks cooking on a 25 dollar smoker who never smoked a piece of meat in their lives. if it werent for the old douche next to us who misinformed us on the way we should garnish our boxes we probably would have done better. if you disagree your full of s---! If it were about the meat and only the meat then there would be no parsley in the box. Why is it every time a new suggestion comes out people jump all over it? probably because half the people who compete are not cooks simply people who read a piece of paper the entire contest that tells them when to flip it when to spray it when to take a leak. god forbid there is a change then they have to go back and revise their BBQ schedule. like you i laugh all the way up to the stage to collect the check but i wish i didnt have to sit and pick parsley instead of drinking my vodka. well i got to go i have to go check out what evryone is crying about in the "should we let LP cookers into the kcbs events" section

Kosmo's Q
02-01-2010, 09:15 PM
KCBS should have an onsite judge. Thats all I'm saying.:biggrin:

chopshop
02-01-2010, 09:19 PM
KCBS should have an onsite judge. Thats all I'm saying.:biggrin:
you aint lyin

BBQchef33
02-01-2010, 09:29 PM
well now i now who the parsley bandit is. when they were discussing the parsley topic at the kcbs banquet were you the guy holding the sign that said "parsley has feelings too!! LET THEM STAY IN THE BOX"

my boxes look good i hired the local landscaper to get them ready. I too was a new team( ocean county pig assassins) at the 06 guitarbeque and was unsure of what to put in the box for garnish. i think we added a few sprigs of parsley in fear of being disqualified for some silly garnish rule. i think we took a 4th in brisket and 6th in chicken. not bad for 3 drunks cooking on a 25 dollar smoker who never smoked a piece of meat in their lives. if it werent for the old douche next to us who misinformed us on the way we should garnish our boxes we probably would have done better. if you disagree your full of s---! If it were about the meat and only the meat then there would be no parsley in the box. Why is it every time a new suggestion comes out people jump all over it? probably because half the people who compete are not cooks simply people who read a piece of paper the entire contest that tells them when to flip it when to spray it when to take a leak. god forbid there is a change then they have to go back and revise their BBQ schedule. like you i laugh all the way up to the stage to collect the check but i wish i didnt have to sit and pick parsley instead of drinking my vodka. well i got to go i have to go check out what evryone is crying about in the "should we let LP cookers into the kcbs events" section


and BBQs your BFF too, right? This chit sounds mighty familiar. :confused:

chopshop
02-01-2010, 09:44 PM
and BBQs your BFF too, right? This chit sounds mighty familiar. :confused:

im fat all food is my BFF. Whats familiar about it?

Finney
02-01-2010, 10:20 PM
You guys are starting to make my head hurt.

Plowboy
02-01-2010, 10:49 PM
You sure your from Texas? I am not sure if I have ever heard a Texan say they like garnish..... :shock:

He made up for it by saying camouflage.

tmcmaster
02-01-2010, 11:38 PM
Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.

I was just re-reading this thread, and wanted to call attention to how much I love this line...

SirPorkaLot
02-02-2010, 06:05 AM
With all due respect.

Garnish is dumb. Plain and simple.
It should be about the Q, not about how pretty your garnish is.
All these arguments that it makes KCBS unique or as long as so & so is involved...are fairly lame arguments.
It is the same old story " we've always done it this way" Anyone involved in any type of management knows that this statement is the death knell of creativity.

KCBS is where it is at today as the top sanctioning body in BBQ due to several factors, none of them are garnish IMHO.

Losing garnish will not effect the KCBS brand, nor tarnish it's luster. If anything it will create better parity among judging because the criteria will be easier to understand & execute.

My 2 cents

Lake Dogs
02-02-2010, 06:37 AM
> Originally Posted by DivaHerself http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1164652#post1164652)
> Everybody's got their own hurdles, and the only place the playing
> field is perfectly level is inside that 9x9 styrofoam box.
>
> I was just re-reading this thread, and wanted to call attention to how
> much I love this line...

I liked it too. It's cute, and true. However, doesn't have anything to
do with the subject matter. Garnish, or not. Allowed, or not. The playing
field is level, and this subject wont change it a bit. Cute, and moot.

Lake Dogs
02-02-2010, 06:43 AM
KCBS should have an onsite judge. Thats all I'm saying.:biggrin:

LOL. You pot stirrer you!!!

I, for one, enjoy the on site. However, it's also a big pain in the butt,
requires you to cook a LOT more meat, and frankly introduces the non-blind
aspect in to it. Luckily, the scores there are weighted very low (in MBN).
But, it is a fun difference. If it weren't my home cookoff, I wouldn't do
one (an MBN cookoff) because of the volume of meat cooked and the
extra crap required. The $1,000 for KCBS to roll out of the driveway
quickly jumps to $1,600 for just 2 of the 3 events. Whole hog, another
pain-in-the-butt altogether...

Onsite? The BGE folks will LOVE this idea. NOT. Tripple their cookers...

Jeff_in_KC
02-02-2010, 07:51 AM
With all due respect.

Garnish is dumb. Plain and simple.
It should be about the Q, not about how pretty your garnish is.
All these arguments that it makes KCBS unique or as long as so & so is involved...are fairly lame arguments.
It is the same old story " we've always done it this way" Anyone involved in any type of management knows that this statement is the death knell of creativity.

KCBS is where it is at today as the top sanctioning body in BBQ due to several factors, none of them are garnish IMHO.

Losing garnish will not effect the KCBS brand, nor tarnish it's luster. If anything it will create better parity among judging because the criteria will be easier to understand & execute.

My 2 cents

So you can't make a nice looking parsely putting green? Is that what you're telling us?

Lame or not, the KCBS has a deep respect for it's late founder, Gary Wells, and the way he set it up and envisioned it and as long as his wife is Executive Director, it's not going anywhere. I think at the heart of everything, some people who defend garnish do so out of respect for the person responsible for our organization. That's a battle haters are never going to win.

And speaking of the "death knell of creativity", let's see how creative you can get with a single sheet of foil. :roll: You know, it is also said that change for change sake is ridiculous as well.

At the end of the day, garnish is still OPTIONAL. That means you may use it or you may choose not to (in case anyone was wondering). If you don't like it, don't want to waste your money or time, don't like wasting food or taking a chance on poisoning judges with E coli, just don't use it.


Man! I gotta get a job SOON! :lol:

SirPorkaLot
02-02-2010, 08:17 AM
So you can't make a nice looking parsely putting green? Is that what you're telling us?

Exactly :oops::roll:

Lame or not, the KCBS has a deep respect for it's late founder, Gary Wells, and the way he set it up and envisioned it and as long as his wife is Executive Director, it's not going anywhere. I think at the heart of everything, some people who defend garnish do so out of respect for the person responsible for our organization. That's a battle haters are never going to win.

For one I am not a hater by any means....and I can respect...the respect..if you will.
I place a high value on traditions, and understand the resistance to change, but still struggle to understand how garnish adds anything to the process.

And speaking of the "death knell of creativity", let's see how creative you can get with a single sheet of foil. :roll: You know, it is also said that change for change sake is ridiculous as well.

At the end of the day, garnish is still OPTIONAL. That means you may use it or you may choose not to (in case anyone was wondering). If you don't like it, don't want to waste your money or time, don't like wasting food or taking a chance on poisoning judges with E coli, just don't use it.

It is not optional....if you want to win...Can anyone name a top 5 winner in KCBS that submitted a box without garnish?

Of course that goes back to traditions as well.

Much like Chicken..it doesn't matter how good your chicken is cooked (or tastes), if it is not a perfectly manicured thigh - you will not be getting a call.

We can debate it until we are blue in the face, but customs are hard to break, and I doubt the rules will ever be changed to reflect reality, so we will continue to compete using the rules we are given.

However the debate does do some good, as it gets people to thinking and discussing other options.

Scottie
02-02-2010, 08:36 AM
I have finished in the top 5 in categories and overall without using garnish. It froze in my frig and none of it was any good. I got creative and filled the box. So it can be done.

Just some quick thoughts. Jeff well stated. I believe big time in traditions and/or history. It is what these foundations of great things are built. To change them, just because the vocal minority wants to, is ridiculous.


I would also bet that the majority of the vocal minority are inexperienced cooks, who have competed less than a handful of times. It's funny, I never hear people beotch about garnished boxes at comps. Went to one last year in Massachusetts, no one complained about not being able to use parsley. Everyone just went on with their business and did it with lettuce. It's what has made and separated KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. When you are at the top, folks take shots.

I hate to say it folks. If you don't like it, I'd suggest finding a new sanctioining body. It's been nice knowing you. Hope to see you soon. As long as KCBS is king, expect greens.

Lake Dogs
02-02-2010, 09:04 AM
I have finished in the top 5 in categories and overall without using garnish. It froze in my frig and none of it was any good. I got creative and filled the box. So it can be done.

Just some quick thoughts. Jeff well stated. I believe big time in traditions and/or history. It is what these foundations of great things are built. To change them, just because the vocal minority wants to, is ridiculous.


I would also bet that the majority of the vocal minority are inexperienced cooks, who have competed less than a handful of times. It's funny, I never hear people beotch about garnished boxes at comps. Went to one last year in Massachusetts, no one complained about not being able to use parsley. Everyone just went on with their business and did it with lettuce. It's what has made and separated KCBS from other sanctioning bodies. When you are at the top, folks take shots.

I hate to say it folks. If you don't like it, I'd suggest finding a new sanctioining body. It's been nice knowing you. Hope to see you soon. As long as KCBS is king, expect greens.

> To change them, just because the vocal minority wants to, is ridiculous.

So far, I haven't seen anyone disagree with this. It would be ridiculous.

> I would also bet that the majority of the vocal minority are
> inexperienced cooks, who have competed less than a handful of times

Hard to say. I have, what.... many comps with various team names (dont
know the number, maybe 30?), and another 40+ judged (as best I can recall).
This is just BBQ. More often than not we're competing in chili cookoffs... That's
why the actual counts are hazy. However, you're right on one
point, only 1 KCBS event so far. The rest have been FBA, GBA, MIM,
and MBN. KCBS has very little traction in Georgia (as compared to
the whole/total).

However, all that aside, lets say you're correct in that 90&#37; of the folks
who would like to see it changed (doesn't mean they're beotching) have
less than 5 cookoffs under their belt. The question is: Does it lessen the
validity of their argument? I, for one, dont think so. An idea is an idea,
good ideas are good, bad ideas are bad. Doesn't seem to me to have
any correlation to good or bad teams, newby or veteran. I dont see it.



> It's funny, I never hear people beotch about garnished boxes at comps

Question: Who is beotching? I haven't seen it yet. Not now, and not
at a comp. So, to whom/when/where are you referring?

Secondly, IF anyone were beotching here (haven't seen it), to what good
would it do at a comp? I happen to think on-sites at MBN are stupid
and unnecessary, but I dont beotch. I enjoy the difference it brings and
go with the flow. Why beotch? Matter of fact, the only ones bringing
in off-topic stuff and questioning anyones abilities are those that have
woefully been attempting to defend it.

BTW: Tradition IS a very good defense. Uniqueness IS a very good
defense. The others, not really. I've seen moot points and questioning
the abilities of those questioning the rule itself....


> I hate to say it folks. If you don't like it, I'd suggest finding a
> new sanctioining body. It's been nice knowing you. Hope to
> see you soon. As long as KCBS is king, expect greens.

First, I haven't seen anyone here say "they don't like it". Did you?
Please, find the reference.

Second, 'round here, KCBS is frankly a wanna be. It may be and IMHO
IS a superior organization, HOWEVER, there's about 1 KCBS cookoff in
this state to every 5 FBA, GBA, MBN cookoffs. King perhaps in your
neck of the woods, but not here, not yet. Strangely, I'm one of the
ones working hard trying to get that changed. Folks in GA have rarely
ever heard of KCBS...


> When you are at the top, folks take shots.

Actually, technically, and PLEASE read above, the ONLY shots taken
in this have been those proclaiming themselves at the top at the others
who've merely stated that they're of the opinion that garnish is
unnecessary and/or takes away from BBQ itself. I dont think any of
"us" questioned your abilities or have, as you just stated, "take shots".

Sorry, haven't seen it.

ique
02-02-2010, 09:16 AM
It is not optional....if you want to win...Can anyone name a top 5 winner in KCBS that submitted a box without garnish?



I've seen pictures of some FBA boxes posted here without garnish that would be without question solid 8 or 9 in KCBS.



Much like Chicken..it doesn't matter how good your chicken is cooked (or tastes), if it is not a perfectly manicured thigh - you will not be getting a call.



How can that be when Taste and Tenderness are so much more heavily weighted?

SirPorkaLot
02-02-2010, 09:22 AM
How can that be when Taste and Tenderness are so much more heavily weighted?

I ask the same question.....it doesn't make sense, but it sure does appear to be the case.

My chicken does well in comps...why? they are perfectly manicured thighs, that I spend waaay to much time on getting to look like that...

the chicken i make in the backyard for the family tastes a hell of a lot better though, and has a better texture IMHO, but would not do well in comps.

Jeff_in_KC
02-02-2010, 09:25 AM
> Question: Who is beotching? I haven't seen it yet. Not now, and not
at a comp. So, to whom/when/where are you referring?

Hance, this is an annual occurance. I suppose you've never been at a KCBS Rules Meeting. Those who hate garnish come out EVERY year and have for years! There was (or is) a Web site something like losethelettuce.com or similar where folks can go sign some "petition" to get rid of it. I believe some people get tired of this because of the continual argument against it, not because you brought up the discussion. This debate is kind of like the Missouri-Kansas sports rivalry... the hatred pre-dates both schools. Well, this agrument pre-dates your thread by MANY years. :lol: Please don't take it personal. :wink:

Lake Dogs
02-02-2010, 09:54 AM
Hance, this is an annual occurance. I suppose you've never been at a KCBS Rules Meeting. Those who hate garnish come out EVERY year and have for years! There was (or is) a Web site something like losethelettuce.com or similar where folks can go sign some "petition" to get rid of it. I believe some people get tired of this because of the continual argument against it, not because you brought up the discussion. This debate is kind of like the Missouri-Kansas sports rivalry... the hatred pre-dates both schools. Well, this agrument pre-dates your thread by MANY years. :lol: Please don't take it personal. :wink:

Thanks. No, haven't been to KCBS Rules Mtg... I definitely dont want
to come off as a hater at all. KCBS ROCKS, IMHO. I surely didn't want
to question something... I'm trying to find the word... sacrosanct?

Of course, Jeff, you know a little more than others to what degree
I personally believe in KCBS and want to see it flourish... However,
we'll keep that between us. It's still there, by the way, where we
left it.

Sorry, yes, I took it personal. I'll try not to. Georgia really has just
gotten a few KCBS cookoffs going in the last few years. We saw 2
new KCBS cookoffs last year in Kennesaw and at Lake Oconee. We
have at least another new one in Rome this year. They're really
starting to take off. Matter of fact, I'm working closely with the organizers
of 2 cookoffs that have been doing MBN "style" cookoffs but have been
having a tough time getting them sanctioned because if they sanctioned
their cookoffs they'd lose 80&#37; of their local teams (defeating their
purpose). The reason they'd lose those teams has to do with the
on site and the volume of meat required. Enter KCBS (or possibly FBA,
GBA, etc.). Both will probably try KCBS "style" this year (these folks
dont jump in whole-hog without a try first) as I've been plugging along
for a couple years now. We'll see how they like it. I think the teams
are really going to like the single turn-in (last year they had to scrape
together enough meat for that 2nd turn-in, they'd been eating it all).
Then, once sanctioned, I've explained that they'll open up their
competition to a whole new lot of teams that they haven't seen before.

It's all good.

HandsomeSwede
02-02-2010, 10:10 AM
I am from one of those newer teams with less than 5 comps under their belt, 4 to be exact. We went from being near dead last in our first comp to 17 overall in our last comp in Troy, would've been higher if not for a 27th in chicken.

In our first comp we garnished with green leaf lettuce and in our last comp we garnished with green leaf lettuce and appearance scores were consistent throughout, 8s & 9s with a 7 here or there.

Our biggest improvements were made by focusing on cooking the meat properly. That said one of the things we will be changing this year is the move to parsley for garnish. Just a hunch that a piece pulled from a nice putting green box has a marked advantage over a plain white box even before the food has been tasted.

Spent a lot of time observing proven winners last year and all seem to use parsley.

ique
02-02-2010, 10:11 AM
Exactly :oops::roll:

It is not optional....if you want to win...Can anyone name a top 5 winner in KCBS that submitted a box without garnish?



Here ya go

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showpost.php?p=804446&postcount=41

Jeff_in_KC
02-02-2010, 10:13 AM
I ask the same question.....it doesn't make sense, but it sure does appear to be the case.

My chicken does well in comps...why? they are perfectly manicured thighs, that I spend waaay to much time on getting to look like that...

the chicken i make in the backyard for the family tastes a hell of a lot better though, and has a better texture IMHO, but would not do well in comps.

You're absolutely right! Backyard barbeque tastes much better than comp barbeque if you have to eat more than a few bites of it! Comp barbeque HAS to be "over the top" to grab the attention of a judge who may only take one bite (or nibble as the cooler... errrrrr I mean CASE may be). Therefore you have to spend a lot of time on it. I not only spend a lot of time with my "perfectly manicured thighs" but ALL categories. However, to say I spend too much time on them is absurd! You can't spend too much time on them (unless of course you go beyond the turn-in window). It's just part of competition barbeque. It simply is what it is.

One other point to make - someone once told me NEVER to give up a single appearance point just because it's the lowest weighted score. I live by that and my overall scores went up. I'll tell you why it seems the way you said - because there are so many great or even just good cooks out there anymore that you can't afford to let a thing slip, no matter how minor it seems. At one contest in 2008, a difference of 0.5714 made a difference in $750 for us. As close as scores are, it takes all three criteria to win. You don't manicure your thighs and you won't be taking a walk... simple as that.

Gowan
02-02-2010, 01:25 PM
> However, you're right on one
point, only 1 KCBS event so far. The rest have been FBA, GBA, MIM,
and MBN. KCBS has very little traction in Georgia (as compared to
the whole/total)
...

Second, 'round here, KCBS is frankly a wanna be. It may be and IMHO
IS a superior organization, HOWEVER, there's about 1 KCBS cookoff in
this state to every 5 FBA, GBA, MBN cookoffs. King perhaps in your
neck of the woods, but not here, not yet. Strangely, I'm one of the
ones working hard trying to get that changed. Folks in GA have rarely
ever heard of KCBS...
.

I've got to call you on that:


Contests in Georgia in 2009

KCBS - 10
GBA - 8? (no historical data on website)
MBN - 7
FBA - 5
I don't get that statement, unless you are saying ALL of the sanctioning bodies have "very little traction in Georgia". I think your viewpoint is being skewed by what you see in your immediate neighborhood again.

Lake Dogs
02-02-2010, 01:42 PM
I've got to call you on that:


Contests in Georgia in 2009

KCBS - 10
GBA - 8? (no historical data on website)
MBN - 7
FBA - 5

I don't get that statement, unless you are saying ALL of the sanctioning bodies have "very little traction in Georgia". I think your viewpoint is being skewed by what you see in your immediate neighborhood again.

I'm trying to let this die, because I didnt want to stir the crap, by any
means, however as I ran the numbers, both KCBS and GBA were lower...
I fairly certain GBA had only 6 *sanctioned*. However, there were others
using Lonnie's guide doing GBA "style". MBN was probably 7, but I know
of others MBN "style" under Heathers guidance.

Lets let this die. I really dont care whether KCBS allows garnish or not.
If they allow it, mine will be garnished.

Luckily KCBS is getting some headway in the state, finally.

You guys got Rome to go KCBS, didnt you?

Gowan
02-02-2010, 03:01 PM
We lost Cartersville, but gained Rome and Dalton this year:

2010 Schedule for KCBS in Georgia (11 Contests)

March 13 - Gainesville
May 7 - Rome *
May 7 - Waynesboro
May 28 - Young Harris *
June 18 - Columbus
August 6 - Dillard *
August 20 - Kennesaw *
September 24 - Greensboro/Oconee *
October 8 - Covington *
October 15 - Canton *
October 23 - Dalton

* = Georgia State Championship points contest

DawgPhan
02-11-2010, 01:47 PM
I ask the same question.....it doesn't make sense, but it sure does appear to be the case.

My chicken does well in comps...why? they are perfectly manicured thighs, that I spend waaay to much time on getting to look like that...

the chicken i make in the backyard for the family tastes a hell of a lot better though, and has a better texture IMHO, but would not do well in comps.


So I have to ask what contests your chicken is doing well in. I checked the pickled pig power rankings and the national bbq rankings and didnt see any record of the Sir Pork A Lot team finishing anywhere in chicken?

I would also say that the manicuring of chicken thighs is an internet sensation like bite through chicken skin. If you actually are doing well in KCBS events with chicken it isnt because of the trimming, it is because you can cook a great piece of chicken. I dont spend much time on my chicken trimming, certainly not the way that some do and I do alright with chicken. it isnt the low score anymore anyway, and after taking classes with Mike Davis, Trigg, and Rod Gray and seeing that none of them spend tons of time on trimming chicken I fell there is reason to believe it isnt that important and certainly not important enough to win with based on trimming alone.

NateOwsley
02-11-2010, 08:18 PM
I personally like the garnish. I can see the argument that someone put forward that your judging more than Q, but to me thats part of the art of competition bbq. Everyone knows that garnish helps, so most teams use it therefore in essence everyone is on the same playing field. If you think about it, it's one more thing that makes KCBS more respectful to the bbq outsiders, not only do we have to make beautiful delicious meat, but we are artists with our turn in boxes. I guarantee you that Chris Lilly finds this skill helpful when advertising food for his restaurant and website. Plus to say that garnish is an unneccessary expense is ridiculous, it seriously costs about $8 to buy enough garnish for the boxes. If you don't use it all, think of it as helping out a farmer. Anyone who gripes about that probably isn't making any money on the circuit anyway.