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ModelMaker
01-28-2010, 11:24 AM
Not sure who started the discussion awhile back but am I correct in saying that no person other than the table captain (including the rep)shall open the turn in box before presenting it to the table of judges?
Also, at judges table it is the table captains responsibility to assure there a six identifible samples before presenting for appearance sores?
My point being, can you be sure as a cook that no one opens your box until it is presented to the judges? Secondly, isn't it up to the judge who may not get a sample to judge to score it as a 1?
I am aware of a whole lot of cooks that pride themselves on turning in a section of ribs that appear to be one whole slab. Why is it up to a table captain to require unkempt looking ribs when that's not what you as a cook want to present. If it looks like there is only a slab of ribs but every judge gets a sample what rule has been broken?
ModelMaker

roksmith
01-28-2010, 12:03 PM
Rule 15 states that each contestant submit at least 6 separated and identifiable portions.

If it looks like one solid slab, they are not separated and identifiable.

Judges are not allowed to shake the pieces apart to separate them.

Ford
01-28-2010, 12:46 PM
Why is it up to a table captain to require unkempt looking ribs when that's not what you as a cook want to present. If it looks like there is only a slab of ribs but every judge gets a sample what rule has been broken?
ModelMaker
The rule says 6 identifiable pieces. The table captain is not looking for an "unkempt" box only 6 pieces. They can be cleanly cut and placed together so long as you can see a cut line. Separation doesn't come into play until they take the ribs out of the box. The better your box looks the better your appearane score. Better try real hard but still keep them identifiable.

Rule 15 states that each contestant submit at least 6 separated and identifiable portions.

If it looks like one solid slab, they are not separated and identifiable.

Judges are not allowed to shake the pieces apart to separate them.
they can be separated but still not identifiable.

Divemaster
01-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Not sure who started the discussion awhile back but am I correct in saying that no person other than the table captain (including the rep)shall open the turn in box before presenting it to the table of judges?
Actually, it was a Rep Advisory that made the statement that no box could be opened without the cooks permission until it was at the judging table.

Also, at judges table it is the table captains responsibility to assure there a six identifiable samples before presenting for appearance sores?
My point being, can you be sure as a cook that no one opens your box until it is presented to the judges? Secondly, isn't it up to the judge who may not get a sample to judge to score it as a 1?
I am aware of a whole lot of cooks that pride themselves on turning in a section of ribs that appear to be one whole slab. Why is it up to a table captain to require unkempt looking ribs when that's not what you as a cook want to present. If it looks like there is only a slab of ribs but every judge gets a sample what rule has been broken?
ModelMaker

This was brought up at the rules meeting at the KCBS Banquet and I'm under the impression that there is going to be a clarification made at the Feb. BOD meeting. My impression is that it'll be either a rule change (clarification) or a Rep Advisory.

Just as a side note, I do print out all of the Advisories and bring them to comps with me. They have come in handy where there was 'confusion' on various rules...

roksmith
01-28-2010, 03:00 PM
they can be separated but still not identifiable.


Good point
..my point was, if it looks like a solid slab, the separate pieces would not be identifiable.
..could have worded it better.

A nice solid slab sure does look pretty. Prettiest 1 you'll ever get.

mobow
01-28-2010, 06:06 PM
When judging I have never seen this be a issue as far as the look. And actually everyone has been allowed to judge for apperance. However, once the samples are taken all six judges better have a sample. If not the table capt finds the rep and he gives instrution to scoring. This is the case for all possible DQ's. Everyone scores for apperance as if the box is ok. Once all judges have given the apperance score a judge or table captain can question if the box is legal and a rep will be notified to make a descision before the samples are taken from the box. keith

dmprantz
01-28-2010, 11:10 PM
On the DQ question, when I took my CBJ class a couple months ago, we were told that every one at the table should judge appearance as if there were enough food for every one, but that the judge (or judges) who do not get a sample give a DQ after. I forget if the DQ was to apply to Taste and Tenderness only or Appearance as well, but I figured if it ever happened to me, I'd ask the TC/Rep. Of course, I could remember this detail wrong, and the rep conducting the class was very emphatic that he was teaching it a new way....

dmp

SmokinOkie
01-29-2010, 07:39 PM
It's not up to the TC to count the ribs, because in fact if two are stuck together, you won't know it until they're pulled out.

I've TC'd a number of times, you'll know it soon enough when the judges pull out the pieces, it's usually at that time the reps get involved.

If there are obviously only 4 or 5 pieces (and sometimes it's all too plain) then you call the Rep over. The TC doesn't make the determination, they make it aware to the Rep, the Rep makes the call.

gmholler
01-29-2010, 09:01 PM
A KCBS table captain really has very little power; they're not alot more than glorified wait staff, when you come right down to it. The ultimate authority per KCBS rests with the rep. Don't get the idea that a TC can tell the judges at that table that some entry is disqualified - only the rep can do that (TCs are supposed to be "discreet" and say something like "That's interesting" and motion the rep to come over if one of the judges at their table says that something should be disqualified)(There were several questions about this on my Master Judge test).

And no, no one, not the TC, and not the rep can open a box before it gets to the judges without that cook's permission-someone asked that very question at a CBJ class I helped with last week! There were 12 tables at that class, and more than once the boxes had fewer than 6 "separate and identifiable" pieces by design - but the new judges never noticed until the product was passed out. A couple times, I could tell we'd be short a piece when I showed a box for appearance judging, but we had been explicitly reminded at the beginning to keep quiet and let the judges to the talking...

Lynn H.

QansasjayhawQ
01-30-2010, 07:08 AM
mobow - that's exactly my take on the situation -

smokinokie - you're also right - NO one scores a 1 unless they are instructed to do so by the KCBS rep. The rep is the one making the call.

gmholler - yes, that's right - the TC and the judges all are to have their poker faces on so as not to influence each other's opinions. This is very important and you can always tell the new judges because most of them think this is a big dinner party . . . but a lot of them learn to be serious soon enough. Not unfriendly, just serious about a serious task.

LindaM
01-30-2010, 03:56 PM
This was brought up at the rules meeting at the KCBS Banquet and I'm under the impression that there is going to be a clarification made at the Feb. BOD meeting. My impression is that it'll be either a rule change (clarification) or a Rep Advisory..

Jeff you are correct. This will be addressed at the BOD meeting next week. I am sure we will resolve the issue at that time.

ModelMaker
01-31-2010, 12:22 PM
That's great Linda, I think the matter needs attention as you can see there are different views now.
My take on the matter is let me as a cook decide how I want to present my rib box. If I have two rows of ribs and they are cut and placed so well they only look like two slabs, that to me means I took great care and effort to make it look so. If after all judges take a sample and there are not enough (6) than that is when the rule is broken and should be addressed accordingly at that time.
I don't think the "6 identifiable pieces" should be part of the presentation score process.
ModelMaker



Jeff you are correct. This will be addressed at the BOD meeting next week. I am sure we will resolve the issue at that time.

watertowerbbq
01-31-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm going to have to disagree with you ModelMaker, I think identifiable pieces should be left as is. I like the rule as it stands.

ModelMaker
01-31-2010, 04:45 PM
So if during transportation from your cooksite to the judges table two of your ribs snuggle up to each other to the point that they look as one you believe the cry should come out from the TC to the Rep that this box obviously has only 5 pieces.
Why not just wait until the judges have removed thier sample to see if there is a rules violation?
ModelMaker

watertowerbbq
01-31-2010, 09:29 PM
I see your point, but doesn't that seem like a very unlikely event? I don't think a lot of DQ's are getting handed out based on "identifiable" pieces, but maybe I'm wrong.

From the boxes I've seen and let me say I've not seen very many, you would have to have a lot of sauce on the ribs before "identifiable" pieces comes into play. I could see a more likely scenario of someone putting one rib on the bottom of the tray and proping up 5 others.

You seem to feel pretty stongly about this rule. Did you get a DQ at a contest? Just asking.

Rookie'48
01-31-2010, 10:15 PM
Matt, I've gotta go with Ed (Model Maker) on this one. Think of this happening - a cook cuts his ribs "Hollywood style" and places three portions right up against each other in the top of the box. He then slathers on the sauce by the gallon. Then another row of three pieces is placed halfway down the first set, kinda like shingles. And that bunch is drowned in sauce.
Now, by counting the bones (three in each row), you should be able to figure out that there are six seperate pieces in the box, especially seeing as there is so much meat on each bone, BUT ---

You can't see the cut marks and at first glance it looks like there are only TWO (very large) seperate pieces in the box!

Does this call for a DQ just because you can't "see" the six pieces?

Or if someone cuts the ribs from a full rack of spares, not St. Louis cut, the full rack, and does a "Hollywood" cut on them. Three chunks on the bottom covered by another three on top of them, that WILL fill up a box! Never mind that each bone has double the amount of meat as normal, you can only see three bones - is that a DQ?

I really think that this rule needs to be re-thought as to how it should be enforced.

And yes, I have seen both of the above examples turned in at comps.

ModelMaker
02-01-2010, 01:01 PM
I see your point, but doesn't that seem like a very unlikely event? I don't think a lot of DQ's are getting handed out based on "identifiable" pieces, but maybe I'm wrong.

From the boxes I've seen and let me say I've not seen very many, you would have to have a lot of sauce on the ribs before "identifiable" pieces comes into play. I could see a more likely scenario of someone putting one rib on the bottom of the tray and proping up 5 others.

You seem to feel pretty stongly about this rule. Did you get a DQ at a contest? Just asking.

No actually, I've only cooked one contest and plan on only doing one per year (till the bug takes over) But I have judged now for a few years and know what the table talk is after cards are in. And if you promise not to tell anyone a tight looking slab will get more points than loosey goosey every time. SHHH!!
ModelMaker

watertowerbbq
02-01-2010, 04:41 PM
Matt, I've gotta go with Ed (Model Maker) on this one. Think of this happening - a cook cuts his ribs "Hollywood style" and places three portions right up against each other in the top of the box. He then slathers on the sauce by the gallon. Then another row of three pieces is placed halfway down the first set, kinda like shingles. And that bunch is drowned in sauce.
Now, by counting the bones (three in each row), you should be able to figure out that there are six seperate pieces in the box, especially seeing as there is so much meat on each bone, BUT ---

You can't see the cut marks and at first glance it looks like there are only TWO (very large) seperate pieces in the box!

Does this call for a DQ just because you can't "see" the six pieces?

Or if someone cuts the ribs from a full rack of spares, not St. Louis cut, the full rack, and does a "Hollywood" cut on them. Three chunks on the bottom covered by another three on top of them, that WILL fill up a box! Never mind that each bone has double the amount of meat as normal, you can only see three bones - is that a DQ?

I really think that this rule needs to be re-thought as to how it should be enforced.

And yes, I have seen both of the above examples turned in at comps.

No actually, I've only cooked one contest and plan on only doing one per year (till the bug takes over) But I have judged now for a few years and know what the table talk is after cards are in. And if you promise not to tell anyone a tight looking slab will get more points than loosey goosey every time. SHHH!!
ModelMaker

Maybe you guys are right. When the rule was originally put in place, I wonder what the reasoning behind the rule was.

I know Dave well enough that if there was that much sauce on the slabs, the appearance score is the least of their concerns. :eek: