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Balls Casten
01-08-2010, 09:00 AM
We saw Tuffy warming/cooking sauce on an LP stove on last night's Pitmasters. I was under the impression that we could not use LP except to light fire outside your smoker. I see that it was posted in the Pitmasters thread that it is legal in KCBS.

Is that spelled out somewhere? (I didn’t see it in the KCBS rules) Or was there a ruling that is not in the book?

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 09:06 AM
If I recall the rule only applys to the cooking of the meat and does not apply to the sauces... I'll look it up..

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 09:11 AM
Here is the rule:

6) Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas
and electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking
or holding. Propane or electric is permitted as fire starters,
provided that the competition meat is not in/on the cooking
device. Electrical accessories such as spits, augers, or
forced draft are permitted. No open pits or holes are
permitted, except at the election of the contest organizer.
Fires shall not be built on the ground.

Based on the wording, I think it implies the cooking of the meat (ie. the term 'holding').

Of course we could always wait for Skip to chime in and clearify it for us... J/K

musicmanryann
01-08-2010, 09:28 AM
Damn I hope it is legal--that is how we heated our sauces all last season.:eek: Seriously though, I agree with Jeff's interpretation of the rule.

Perhaps we should some clarification from the board on this?? :twisted::lol:

dmprantz
01-08-2010, 09:52 AM
It does bring up a slippery slope question, though I think I asked it in a different thread and never got an answer: Is it legal to boil water over gas and pour it into your cambro/cooler to warm it and then use the cambro/cooler to hold the meat? At that point, the meat is being held with heat released from a gas flame. Same argument with sauce: Warm sauce poured over meat is adding heat to the meat that was generated with gas. I'm just playing DA here, as I'm on the record for saying gas heat is okay.

dmp

ps, you may want to refresh yourself on the law of conservation of heat to discuss this:)

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 09:53 AM
Damn I hope it is legal--that is how we heated our sauces all last season.:eek: Seriously though, I agree with Jeff's interpretation of the rule.

Perhaps we should some clarification from the board on this?? :twisted::lol:
That's the joy of a stick burnner... we heat ours on our fire box....:lol:

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 09:54 AM
It does bring up a slippery slope question, though I think I asked it in a different thread and never got an answer: Is it legal to boil water over gas and pour it into your cambro/cooler to warm it and then use the cambro/cooler to hold the meat? At that point, the meat is being held with heat released from a gas flame. Same argument with sauce: Warm sauce poured over meat is adding heat to the meat that was generated with gas. I'm just playing DA here, as I'm on the record for saying gas heat is okay.

dmp

ps, you may want to refresh yourself on the law of conservation of heat to discuss this:)
We heat our water on the fire box too.... But we never heat it above 195* so that we can not be accused of continuing to cook our pork....

Balls Casten
01-08-2010, 10:19 AM
We use the fire box as well. But will start using the stove if thats what everyone is doing.
I knew there was a reason we have not won a GC. :-)

Thx for the input.

comfrank
01-08-2010, 10:19 AM
Seems to me if you can cook your sauce at home, on your gas or electric kitchen range, you ought to be able to heat it up on LP. Just sayin'.

--frank in Wilson, NY

Balls Casten
01-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Seems to me if you can cook your sauce at home, on your gas or electric kitchen range, you ought to be able to heat it up on LP. Just sayin'.

--frank in Wilson, NY

Thats a real good point. Stove it is!

dmprantz
01-08-2010, 10:41 AM
Seems to me if you can cook your sauce at home, on your gas or electric kitchen range, you ought to be able to heat it up on LP.

I don't think it's quite that simple. KCBS has gone to great lengths to say that the only heat which can be applied to meat is heat from a wood or charcoal source. This includes the cooking and holding processes. Taking that into account, an LP fire would transfer heat into sauce, and the sauce, when poured over the meat would transfer heat to it. Cooking sauce at home and then allowing it to cool to ambient or sub 40* temperatures is cooking sure, but by just doing that you aren't adding any heat to the meat.

Slippery slope I tell you...

dmp

Spydermike72
01-08-2010, 10:46 AM
I think we may be reading a little too much into this... I dont personally see how heating sauce on a gas stove could be interpreted as cooking meat over gas. However, that is just my interpretation.

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 10:49 AM
We also start our fires by rubbing two sticks together.... That way we are sure there is no gas expelled from it's storage container... Unless Bubba has beans that is....

BigJimsBBQ
01-08-2010, 10:54 AM
:twisted: Are we starting up the allow LP again :lol::lol::lol:

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 10:58 AM
:twisted: Are we starting up the allow LP again :lol::lol::lol:
I'm pushing for Methane, but it has to be produced on site....

Scottie
01-08-2010, 10:59 AM
I think we may be reading a little too much into this... I dont personally see how heating sauce on a gas stove could be interpreted as cooking meat over gas. However, that is just my interpretation.


Mike, the only problem I see with it... Is if folks are heating up sauce and they have meat in it.... Then it is illegal.

Spydermike72
01-08-2010, 11:01 AM
Mike, the only problem I see with it... Is if folks are heating up sauce and they have meat in it.... Then it is illegal.

Hey Scottie, I agree with that!!

Ford
01-08-2010, 11:23 AM
I don't think it's quite that simple. KCBS has gone to great lengths to say that the only heat which can be applied to meat is heat from a wood or charcoal source. This includes the cooking and holding processes. Taking that into account, an LP fire would transfer heat into sauce, and the sauce, when poured over the meat would transfer heat to it. Cooking sauce at home and then allowing it to cool to ambient or sub 40* temperatures is cooking sure, but by just doing that you aren't adding any heat to the meat.

Slippery slope I tell you...

dmp
As long as the sauce is not in contact with the gas flame once it comes in contact with the meat then the gas is not a heat source for the meat. Scottie has it right below.


I'm pushing for Methane, but it has to be produced on site....
I've setup next to your team and you'd have an unfair advantage over other teams if this becomes a rule :icon_devil

Mike, the only problem I see with it... Is if folks are heating up sauce and they have meat in it.... Then it is illegal.
Amen. Discussion over people.

KC_Bobby
01-08-2010, 11:25 AM
How hot do you guys get your sauces? What's wrong with putting the sauce pan in the smoker?

Buster Dog BBQ
01-08-2010, 11:38 AM
I thinks it's only illegal if you separate the money muscle and put it in the sauce on the stove. :twisted:

I don't know why it would be illegal. You are not cooking the meat with that heat source and certainly aren't holding the meat by the time you're saucing it. What's the saucing going to add temperature wise? A few degrees, maybe 20 at the most? Outside of pork the sauced food usually goes back on the smoker to set doesn't it? So the argument to warm meat can be thrown out.

Buster Dog BBQ
01-08-2010, 11:38 AM
How hot do you guys get your sauces? What's wrong with putting the sauce pan in the smoker?
I do that.

Divemaster
01-08-2010, 11:50 AM
I'm pushing for Methane, but it has to be produced on site....

I've setup next to your team and you'd have an unfair advantage over other teams if this becomes a rule :icon_devil

Why do you think I'm pushing for it! LOL

Chipper
01-08-2010, 11:58 AM
I saw the show, while keeping an eye on the game, and was wondering the same thing. So we can heat sauce on a gas powered stove? Then apply the warmed sauce to meat. And we are 100% sure on that?

musicmanryann
01-08-2010, 12:17 PM
And we are 100% sure on that?

I am. I also know a lot of teams that do this.

Exe-que-tioner
01-08-2010, 12:19 PM
What about electric crock-pots? I am assuming these are okay? Have been heating sauces on the fire-box. Going to try using these this year. Wal-Mart has the 2.5 quart crocks for about $11.50 each. :confused:

musicmanryann
01-08-2010, 12:28 PM
How hot do you guys get your sauces? What's wrong with putting the sauce pan in the smoker?

Between poaching and simmering temp (around 175), I definitely don't want my sauce to boil, ever. For me it is a matter of convenience and mise en place. I like having the hot sauce right there right when when I need it. I just pull the nalgene out of the pot of water put it in to a ramekin and instantly apply. The stove is right next to where I am putting the box together, whereas my cooker is a ways from the Also, When I put the system together I didn't have pans I wanted tp put in my smoker, but I had all the necessary supplies for this process. If I had to put the sauce on wood or coal fire, no big deal.

monty3777
01-08-2010, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE=musicmanryann;1138141]I like having the hot sauce right there right when when I need it. I just pull the nalgene out of the pot of water put it in to a ramekin and instantly apply.QUOTE]

good idea

musicmanryann
01-08-2010, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=musicmanryann;1138141]I like having the hot sauce right there right when when I need it. I just pull the nalgene out of the pot of water put it in to a ramekin and instantly apply.QUOTE]

good idea

Damn! I knew you were going to shig that! Surprised you didn't pick it up in Marshalltown. :lol:

dmprantz
01-08-2010, 01:14 PM
As long as the sauce is not in contact with the gas flame once it comes in contact with the meat then the gas is not a heat source for the meat. Scottie has it right below.

No, he doesn't. The heat that the sauce contains came from a gas fire, so it's retained gas heat. It's like saying that you turn an electric oven on to get it hot, unplug it, and then place the meat in the hot oven. The oven's not actively producing heat, but the heat that it does have came from electricity. This isn't an opinion, it's a law of physics. Argue with a physicist, not me.

Amen. Discussion over people.

Some times I wish I were as powerful as you: Able to declare that I am right, every one else is wrong and has to see things my way, and can just declare that threads come to an end and others should shut the fark up.

dmp

monty3777
01-08-2010, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=monty3777;1138206]

Damn! I knew you were going to shig that! Surprised you didn't pick it up in Marshalltown. :lol:

I was relying on Jeff and Mark to shig in Marshalltown. They ended up at Boondoggle's so we got nothin'! :wink:
There, I included the little winking guy so that noone can be offended!! :-D

goodsmokebbq
01-08-2010, 01:52 PM
I saw the show, while keeping an eye on the game, and was wondering the same thing. So we can heat sauce on a gas powered stove? Then apply the warmed sauce to meat. And we are 100% sure on that?


Yes, legal... and my secret way to keep pork warm :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy

KC_Bobby
01-08-2010, 02:01 PM
I was relying on Jeff and Mark to shig in Marshalltown. They ended up at Boondoggle's so we got nothin'! :wink:
There, I included the little winking guy so that noone can be offended!! :-D

Nothin hell - they walked away with half our beer

EDIT: :-D

smoke showin'
01-08-2010, 02:08 PM
hot plate fire box what's the difference?????????????? it's sauce

Ford
01-08-2010, 04:05 PM
No, he doesn't. The heat that the sauce contains came from a gas fire, so it's retained gas heat. It's like saying that you turn an electric oven on to get it hot, unplug it, and then place the meat in the hot oven. The oven's not actively producing heat, but the heat that it does have came from electricity. This isn't an opinion, it's a law of physics. Argue with a physicist, not me.dmp
Question 1. Is the sauce supposed to be used for a heating device? Is that it's primary pirpose as designed?

Question 2. Is cooking food the primary use for an electric oven?

Answer 1. NO Answer 2. YES. Bad argument and flawed logic. Try something else.

Some times I wish I were as powerful as you: Able to declare that I am right, every one else is wrong and has to see things my way, and can just declare that threads come to an end and others should shut the fark up.

dmp
So if you have something new to say go ahead. So far every attempt you've made to make your point has been shot down by multiple people. Don't keep beating a dead horse, man up and say you're wrong.

EDIT: The KCBS ruled on using a gas burner for heating sauce years ago. Do your research and read archives. It's legal. If you question my word then send an email to the KCBS and ask.

dmprantz
01-08-2010, 05:18 PM
Question 1. Is the sauce supposed to be used for a heating device? Is that it's primary pirpose as designed?

Question 2. Is cooking food the primary use for an electric oven?

Answer 1. NO Answer 2. YES. Bad argument and flawed logic. Try something else.



I like how you can look at things only how you want to see them and assume that's the only way. You still have the laws of physics to contend with. One person on this thread has admitted to using heated sauce to keep his meat warm, and I was referring to a hot electric oven used to hold meat, not its primary purpose. I don't have to try jack until you understand the laws of physics.

So if you have something new to say go ahead. So far every attempt you've made to make your point has been shot down by multiple people. Don't keep beating a dead horse, man up and say you're wrong.


Nothing's been shot down by any one. People have tried to make light of it, but not explained any specific reason besides "I think this." If you have something better to say than cussing at other other people, telling them to shut up, please share, but this is Phil's place, not yours, and I don't think you have the right to go around trying to force your will and mindset on other members, no matter how right you are in your head, so I'll say what I want thankyouverymuch.


EDIT: The KCBS ruled on using a gas burner for heating sauce years ago. Do your research and read archives. It's legal. If you question my word then send an email to the KCBS and ask.

I question people who make bold statements of fact without citing references - something you seem to do with frequency. I've asked you to cite a reference before, and you ignored that request. If there is such a rule, I invite you to post a link, or at the very least quote the rule here in the forum as many other people do. Otherwise, you're just talking, and it's easy to make very untrue statements. If there is a rule allowing it, so be it. I would have been wrong if I ever said that there wasn't. As it stands, I said that it's a slippery slope because hot sauce can be used to either cook or hold meat. If you continue to disagree with the laws of physics, I suggest you try banging your head against a tree, cause you'll have about as much luck not hurting it as you will winning the argument. Heat derrived from a gas fire is still heat, and telling people to shutup and stop talking is no way to resolve discussions. If you hate the discussions people have so much, and you really do seem to hate a lot of them, then I suggest you stop reading them altogether.

dmp

LindaM
01-08-2010, 05:28 PM
I saw the show, while keeping an eye on the game, and was wondering the same thing. So we can heat sauce on a gas powered stove? Then apply the warmed sauce to meat. And we are 100% sure on that?

100%...... You can heat sauce with any source you want. You cannot put the meat in the sauce while it is on the heat unless it on wood or coal.

Mike - CSBBBQ
01-08-2010, 05:32 PM
100%...... You can heat sauce with any source you want. You cannot put the meat in the sauce while it is on the heat unless it on wood or coal.

Thanks Linda! Pretty sure it was and glad we can put to rest :lol:

Kevin
01-08-2010, 05:44 PM
100%...... You can heat sauce with any source you want. You cannot put the meat in the sauce while it is on the heat unless it on wood or coal.

Thank you for the clarification Linda.
Now let's continue this discussion with civility.

watertowerbbq
01-08-2010, 07:01 PM
...., it's a law of physics. Argue with a physicist, not me.


You would be better off arguing with a mechanical engineer. Heat transfer is governed by the Laws of Thermodyanmics, not Physics. :twisted:

goodsmokebbq
01-08-2010, 07:52 PM
You would be better off arguing with a mechanical engineer. Heat transfer is governed by the Laws of Thermodyanmics, not Physics. :twisted:


Themodynamics IS a branch of physics...

Chipper
01-08-2010, 07:55 PM
Thanks Linda! Pretty sure it was and glad we can put to rest :lol:



Ditto That!!

CivilWarBBQ
01-08-2010, 08:03 PM
I once had to respond to a challenge from a neighboring cook team that thought we should be disqualified because they saw me melting stick butter in a pan on a Coleman stove. I went straight to the Rep for a ruling and was given a green light.

You can melt CheeseWhiz in a microwave and then slather it on your ribs if you want and you wouldn't be in violation of the Wood and Charcoal Only rule.

musicmanryann
01-08-2010, 08:03 PM
100%...... You can heat sauce with any source you want. You cannot put the meat in the sauce while it is on the heat unless it on wood or coal.

Thanks so much for posting this Linda. Before I was reluctant to say that since we got the camper I have heated sauce in our microwave, but now it is okay.:cool::lol:

Diver
01-08-2010, 08:09 PM
I had to watch the show from a hotel room so no chance to review on dvr. I seem to remember Tuffy dipping his chicken in the sauce pan. Was the pan off the heat source? If over the heat source when dipping the thigh, would that be a violation?

Mike - CSBBBQ
01-08-2010, 09:33 PM
I had to watch the show from a hotel room so no chance to review on dvr. I seem to remember Tuffy dipping his chicken in the sauce pan. Was the pan off the heat source? If over the heat source when dipping the thigh, would that be a violation?

He didn't use on his pork and the pot was on the shelf of the cooker when he dipped his chicken.

Scottie
01-09-2010, 08:50 AM
Was the pan off the heat source? If over the heat source when dipping the thigh, would that be a violation?

Can't be on a heat source and be dipping and/or place your meat into the pan/container. We've had this issue at a contest and Mike Lake ruled on it immediately.

Oh and dmp, I am still waiting on a retraction after you said I didn't know what I am talking about. I take offense to that. If you can dish it, you better be ready to retract it. So I'm waiting.

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 10:30 AM
100%...... You can heat sauce with any source you want. You cannot put the meat in the sauce while it is on the heat unless it on wood or coal.

Thanks Linda. Any comment on being able to heat water on gas and pour it into a cooler or Cambro for holding? How about the situation I brought up with an unplugged oven being used for holding?

dmp

watertowerbbq
01-09-2010, 10:31 AM
Themodynamics IS a branch of physics...

I stand corrected, but where I went to school, it was taught in the Engineering Mechanics Department.

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Oh and dmp, I am still waiting on a retraction after you said I didn't know what I am talking about. I take offense to that. If you can dish it, you better be ready to retract it. So I'm waiting.

I never said you "didn't know what you were talking about." I believe you are referring to the comments I made

No, he doesn't. The heat that the sauce contains came from a gas fire, so it's retained gas heat.

in response to Ford's opinion directed toward me and decree that the thread must come to a halt on his order.

As long as the sauce is not in contact with the gas flame once it comes in contact with the meat then the gas is not a heat source for the meat. Scottie has it right below.
...

Amen. Discussion over people.

When I read Ford's post and attribution to you, I thought that he was claiming that you stated that gas is only providing heat to meat if the meat is in the sauce when the fire is on. Though I probably should have, I did not go back and review your exact comments, which were

Mike, the only problem I see with it... Is if folks are heating up sauce and they have meat in it.... Then it is illegal.

If you were only referring to the legality of heating sauce on gas, then you were obviously correct per Linda's comments, though I have not disputed that fact in this thread. That is not what Ford said though, and not what I was arguing, which is that the heat being applied to meat would come from a gas fire, and so was gas heat. If you or Ford believe that the heat in such a situation is not gas heat, then I stand by my comments. I apologize for not re-reading your thread before replying to Ford and for attributing an opinion to you if it was not in fact yours, however I hope you understand that I have been asking about slippery slope in this thread more than KCBS rules. Perhaps that was a hijack, and for that I apologize too. I stand by the laws of physics.

dmp

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 10:36 AM
I stand corrected, but where I went to school, it was taught in the Engineering Mechanics Department.

Typical Engineer thinking they invented science. *j/k* Seriously though, that is not uncommon at all. When I went to college, a whole lot of classes that the engineering department taught were exact copies, text book and all, to classes taught by the Math, Physics, or Computer Science departments. Apparently engineering schools like to teach their own classes rather than let scientists do it.

dmp

Ford
01-09-2010, 10:42 AM
If you were only referring to the legality of heating sauce on gas, then you were obviously correct per Linda's comments, though I have not disputed that fact in this thread. That is not what Ford said though, and not what I was arguing, which is that the heat being applied to meat would come from a gas fire, and so was gas heat. If you or Ford believe that the heat in such a situation is not gas heat, then I stand by my comments. I apologize for not re-reading your thread before replying to Ford and for attributing an opinion to you if it was not in fact yours, however I hope you understand that I have been asking about slippery slope in this thread more than KCBS rules. Perhaps that was a hijack, and for that I apologize too. I stand by the laws of physics.

dmp
Then it follows that if you start the pit using a gas assist or a weed burner then the heat in the pit is also gas heat. Or do I not understand your logic. And we all know it is legal to use gas appliances such as a weed burner to not only start your pit but to restart or heat it so long as the meat is off the pit when the gas is running. So it's legal during cooking to remove the meat, fire up the weed burner and apply the flame to the walls of the pit to increase temp and then turn off the gas and put the meat back on. Again we know this is legal and has been so ruled by the KCBS. I guess your way of seeing it is different than the way the KCBS sees it.

Jaybird
01-09-2010, 10:54 AM
How does anyone think that when you add warmed sauce, no matter how it's heated, to your meat, that it's part of the actual 'cooking' process. If you take your meat out of the cooker, set it on your table and add sauce, the sauce will not cook your meat any further. If you leave the meat in the cooker and add sauce, the sauce itself will not cook your meat any further...the cooker will. I just don't see the logic...or illogic...but then I'm not a college boy either and think in different ways.

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 11:06 AM
So it's legal during cooking to remove the meat, fire up the weed burner and apply the flame to the walls of the pit to increase temp and then turn off the gas and put the meat back on.

I was not aware of that. Thank you for letting me know. It does affect some of my questions, such as a turned off electric oven. Perhaps if you had mentioned this earlier in the thread in stead of declaring it over things would have gone differently.

Then it follows that if you start the pit using a gas assist or a weed burner then the heat in the pit is also gas heat. Or do I not understand your logic.

Not really relevant any more now that you have finally stated that rules specifically allow retained gas heat for cooking, but my though was that gas was used to add heat to the wood, which then produces its own heat. By the time the meat gets on the cooker, the gas heat has dissapated and the wood heat is the majority of what's there. For heating wood outside of the cooker, the gas' heat dissapates even more quickly..but as I said, the rule you stated above makes it moot.

dmp

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 11:08 AM
How does anyone think that when you add warmed sauce, no matter how it's heated, to your meat, that it's part of the actual 'cooking' process.

I'm not. I'm asking more about the holding process than the cooking process. KCBS rules state that you can't use, for instance, an electronic warming drawer to keep your meat warm, but you can apparently use an electronic stove to warm sauce, and pour that over meat, effectively warming it, but not cooking it. I like to understand rules in their minutae.

dmp

Jaybird
01-09-2010, 11:25 AM
Oh, minutae.

???

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 11:31 AM
Spelling is not a strong point of mine: minutiae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutiae

dmp

Jaybird
01-09-2010, 11:45 AM
Gee thanks.

Crash
01-09-2010, 11:52 AM
Must be the off-season.

HoDeDo
01-09-2010, 11:59 AM
I don't think it's quite that simple. KCBS has gone to great lengths to say that the only heat which can be applied to meat is heat from a wood or charcoal source. This includes the cooking and holding processes. Taking that into account, an LP fire would transfer heat into sauce, and the sauce, when poured over the meat would transfer heat to it. Cooking sauce at home and then allowing it to cool to ambient or sub 40* temperatures is cooking sure, but by just doing that you aren't adding any heat to the meat. Slippery slope I tell you...dmp

This is where you are wrong... KCBS didnt really go to great lenghts when these rules were drafted. There were lots of small contests going on in the area, and the vision by Gary and Carolyn were to keep things simple - cook BBQ, have fun. And the set of rules were put in place to make it easier for folks to know what to expect when coming to one of these events. For years, they were largely local events only.... there was not the network of info available on contests as there are today... There was not thought about the amount of heat generated in sauce being transferred to meat - when that rule was made.

For some reason we have people that like to overthink obvious statements, that have a clear intent to them and contort them into things they are not. Residual heat left in a cambro from a water pan (thatis no longer in the cambro), is not adding heat to the meat. That cambro is still cooler than the meat that goes in it. residual heat in sauce, does not have enough heat to raise the temp of the mass of the meat.

Come on folks -- if you would need to do lab tests to determine if a question is valid... (like warming sauce on a burner) to determine the amount of heat that would transfer to meat from sauce... and factor in losses for air, open pots, etc.... IT doesnt belong in a conversation about BBQ. It isnt a slipperly slope. It has never been an issue. And has nothing to do with the intention of the rules.

G$
01-09-2010, 12:09 PM
Spelling is not a strong point of mine: minutiae

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minutiae

dmp

That is ironic for someone as detail oriented as you are. (Not a dig, just an observation). Proper spelling helps increase clarity of intent.

LindaM
01-09-2010, 12:14 PM
This is where you are wrong... KCBS didnt really go to great lenghts when these rules were drafted. There were lots of small contests going on in the area, and the vision by Gary and Carolyn were to keep things simple - cook BBQ, have fun. And the set of rules were put in place to make it easier for folks to know what to expect when coming to one of these events. For years, they were largely local events only.... there was not the network of info available on contests as there are today... There was not thought about the amount of heat generated in sauce being transferred to meat - when that rule was made.

For some reason we have people that like to overthink obvious statements, that have a clear intent to them and contort them into things they are not. Residual heat left in a cambro from a water pan (thatis no longer in the cambro), is not adding heat to the meat. That cambro is still cooler than the meat that goes in it. residual heat in sauce, does not have enough heat to raise the temp of the mass of the meat.

Come on folks -- if you would need to do lab tests to determine if a question is valid... (like warming sauce on a burner) to determine the amount of heat that would transfer to meat from sauce... and factor in losses for air, open pots, etc.... IT doesnt belong in a conversation about BBQ. It isnt a slipperly slope. It has never been an issue. And has nothing to do with the intention of the rules.

Thanks Andy you are absolutely right.

I think with the higher prize money people are just trying to find an advantage, and in that others believe they are in violation of the rules. I really don't think you would want the BOD to fine line define each rule. That is what most of you complain about now. As situations come up we do have to address them but lets try to keep this simple.

HoDeDo
01-09-2010, 12:20 PM
And I probably didnt make my point clear earlier...
Doug - the question is great, and to be expected from new folks.... but the answer should just be as simple as what Linda provided. Very clear, and concise.

It intention was never to split the hairs we continually see split in some of these off season threads :)

dmprantz
01-09-2010, 12:22 PM
DAMN IT! I just Lost my whole response! MF-ER

Let's try this again:

A agree that the rules started out simple and then lengths weren't as great, but things have changed over the years, I don't think they are now where they were then. I don't think they should be complex either. I think you just let ppl cook the best Q they can and be done with it, but I'm in the minority there.

Where this all comes from for me is a thread a few months ago related to the BOD and handling of parted pork. I don't want to relive the whole discussion (two in one week is enough!), but from what I recall, the end result was that once pork is parted, it can't be placed back in a warm cooker without fuel for holding. If there's going to be such an obscure rule for the handling of cooked pork, I would expect equally obscure rulings regarding gas.

I know, the rules are "simple." Gas is forbidden as a cooking fuel, but you can heat up your pit with gas and turn if off and cook that way. You can heat up water with gas and use that to hold your meat, or you can heat up sauce with gas and "reheat" your meat. You can hold all meats in a warm cooker except for pork once it's been parted which has to be stored any where else. That just seems like a lot of ifs and exceptions to me. I think you should cook the meat you brought and let it be judged, period. Enough rules, but if they're there, I wanna know them. Besides, as some one said, it is the off season, and my pit is 350 miles away, and I quit smoking last week, so there.

dmp

chopshop
01-09-2010, 12:25 PM
Typical Engineer thinking they invented science. *j/k* Seriously though, that is not uncommon at all. When I went to college, a whole lot of classes that the engineering department taught were exact copies, text book and all, to classes taught by the Math, Physics, or Computer Science departments. Apparently engineering schools like to teach their own classes rather than let scientists do it.

dmp

i went school in the ghetto and we had science class* nothing more. leave the physics to the nerds. ill stick to food just cause im fat.

*science class- the kind of class that they give in the ghetto that covers everything from the color of a christmas tree to the sweet aroma of fine tuned fart

HoDeDo
01-09-2010, 12:49 PM
DAMN IT! I just Lost my whole response! MF-ER

Let's try this again:

A agree that the rules started out simple and then lengths weren't as great, but things have changed over the years, I don't think they are now where they were then. I don't think they should be complex either. I think you just let ppl cook the best Q they can and be done with it, but I'm in the minority there.

Where this all comes from for me is a thread a few months ago related to the BOD and handling of parted pork. I don't want to relive the whole discussion (two in one week is enough!), but from what I recall, the end result was that once pork is parted, it can't be placed back in a warm cooker without fuel for holding. If there's going to be such an obscure rule for the handling of cooked pork, I would expect equally obscure rulings regarding gas.

I know, the rules are "simple." Gas is forbidden as a cooking fuel, but you can heat up your pit with gas and turn if off and cook that way. You can heat up water with gas and use that to hold your meat, or you can heat up sauce with gas and "reheat" your meat. You can hold all meats in a warm cooker except for pork once it's been parted which has to be stored any where else. That just seems like a lot of ifs and exceptions to me. I think you should cook the meat you brought and let it be judged, period. Enough rules, but if they're there, I wanna know them. Besides, as some one said, it is the off season, and my pit is 350 miles away, and I quit smoking last week, so there.

dmp

That pork issue is a perfect example of the silliness that ensues when this hair splitting occurs. The rule doesnt say what the "inerpretation" that was provided guides by, -- hopefully the rules meeting fixes that. They should see the obvious error in thier "interpretation"... applying sauce in the final minutes to your already "box ready" pork is not what the rule is about.... but we have folks that have twisted it into that. Hopefully that gets resolved at the rules meeting this year.

I look forward to some new clairity around these types of questions, where the answer can be simply -- "no, it is x". or "yes, it is y"

I hope our leadership will see fit to stay out of mud, and put it back on cooks to look at the issues they bring.... in the proper context. We need to inject a little bit of common sense back into this.

Diver
01-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Last year, I decided that I wanted to compete in BBQ. I first became a judge, read everything I could find, talked to established teams, judged 3 events etc. We competed twice in the fall and I loved every minute of it.

I think it is great that we have a forum like this to discuss questions as they arise. Whether it's the increasing dollars or just plain old pride and competitiveness, teams will always look for advantages. It would be impossible for the BOD to have a set of rules that applied to every permutation of every rule.

I do not know all of the history of the prior rulings that are being discussed but my expectation as a newcomer to the sport is to have a quick judgement when a rule is questioned or a team "pushes the envelope" and when appropriate, to have the judgement announced to teams competing in subsequent contests.

We all got into competitions and KCBS because of a love of BBQ. Competitions and rules, like life, will never be perfect and I didn't expect them to be. But, through discussions and heated debates(minus the personal attacks) like the few I have witnessed in my short time here, we can continually improve as cooks, judges and KCBS reps/rule makers.

Jeff_in_KC
01-09-2010, 04:26 PM
amen. Discussion over people.

:eek::eek::eek: OMG!!! And yet five pages later, it's not yet over, Ford! :lol: I just skimmed through this all and that's about three or four minutes of my life I'll never get back. :lol:

Jeff_in_KC
01-09-2010, 04:29 PM
Hopefully that gets resolved at the rules meeting this year.

:lol:

Bbq Bubba
01-09-2010, 04:42 PM
This is where you are wrong... KCBS didnt really go to great lenghts when these rules were drafted. There were lots of small contests going on in the area, and the vision by Gary and Carolyn were to keep things simple - cook BBQ, have fun. And the set of rules were put in place to make it easier for folks to know what to expect when coming to one of these events. For years, they were largely local events only.... there was not the network of info available on contests as there are today... There was not thought about the amount of heat generated in sauce being transferred to meat - when that rule was made.

For some reason we have people that like to overthink obvious statements, that have a clear intent to them and contort them into things they are not. Residual heat left in a cambro from a water pan (thatis no longer in the cambro), is not adding heat to the meat. That cambro is still cooler than the meat that goes in it. residual heat in sauce, does not have enough heat to raise the temp of the mass of the meat.

Come on folks -- if you would need to do lab tests to determine if a question is valid... (like warming sauce on a burner) to determine the amount of heat that would transfer to meat from sauce... and factor in losses for air, open pots, etc.... IT doesnt belong in a conversation about BBQ. It isnt a slipperly slope. It has never been an issue. And has nothing to do with the intention of the rules.

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

:eek::eek::eek: OMG!!! And yet five pages later, it's not yet over, Ford! :lol: I just skimmed through this all and that's about three or four minutes of my life I'll never get back. :lol:

Word.
I am SO glad i have a job this winter. :tongue:

JD McGee
01-09-2010, 05:06 PM
Must be the off-season.

:eek::eek::eek: OMG!!! And yet five pages later, it's not yet over, Ford! :lol: I just skimmed through this all and that's about three or four minutes of my life I'll never get back. :lol:

LOFLMAO!!!...:lol::lol::lol: I can't believe I just read 5 pages of insanity over one simple question...:icon_shy

Dan - 3eyzbbq
01-09-2010, 10:04 PM
Lol, I'm ready for the season to start already!

Ford
01-10-2010, 07:29 AM
:lol:
So if you get elected remember this thread. If an individual had a place to go where all this stuff was kept (database) and it could be searched then they could easily find everything the KCBS has said or ruled on say propane.

NorthwestBBQ
01-10-2010, 08:02 AM
Yes, it's legal...:-P

Jeff_in_KC
01-10-2010, 12:40 PM
So if you get elected remember this thread. If an individual had a place to go where all this stuff was kept (database) and it could be searched then they could easily find everything the KCBS has said or ruled on say propane.

Great idea, Ford!

rookiedad
01-11-2010, 12:46 PM
what if you want to heat the pan juices and either condense them or use them in or as a sauce? would they be considered a sauce or part of the meat?

Jorge
01-11-2010, 12:53 PM
what if you want to heat the pan juices and either condense them or use them in or as a sauce? would they be considered a sauce or part of the meat?

It would be legal. You can add it back to the meat at any time during the cook, or while preparing your box as long as it doesn't pool in the bottom of the box.

Ford
01-11-2010, 12:54 PM
what if you want to heat the pan juices and either condense them or use them in or as a sauce? would they be considered a sauce or part of the meat?
If the meat is not in the pot then it's sauce. Legal. Some people may actually do this with beef stock adding BBQ spices then straining and cooling for injection. Also legal even though they do it at home a week before.

acorette
01-11-2010, 07:02 PM
If the meat is not in the pot then it's sauce. Legal. Some people may actually do this with beef stock adding BBQ spices then straining and cooling for injection. Also legal even though they do it at home a week before.

Just a clarification to Ford's words... The "it" he's referring to is the taking the stock, adding spices, straining/cooling. NOT the injecting part! Can't inject anything until after meat inspection onsite.