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KnucklHed BBQ
12-24-2009, 12:47 PM
I've got a question about my score results on chicken that came back from my 1st sanctioned event...

To set the stage, a little background, I've competed in a backyard event for the past 6 years and have been in the top 5 for the past 5 years, with a GC this last time.

Being a BY event, the rules are obviously going to be a bit looser than a sanctioned one. For instance, this BY comp allows any garnish & decoration to accompany your turn in, and it always has a "suprise" category that isn't disclosed until a few weeks before...

This past summer I entered the PNWBA sanctioned event in Stevensville, MT (http://www.creamerypicnic.com/bbq.htm) (looks like they haven't updated the 09 results) and took 3rd in butt and 3rd in brisket, but my chicken was the killer...

To the point:
Knowing that it is typical for everyone to turn in thighs that are glazed, I thought I'd set myself apart and do it a bit different.
I spatched and brined my chicken and then served sliced breast (super moist, wasn't even worried about it drying out) and then aranged 2 drums, 2 thighs and 2 wings in the box. None of it was sauced or glazed, just the dry rub & brine for the flavor.

My thinking was nobody else is probably going to risk turning in breast since it tends to dry out, and I would include the other pieces so that the judge could grab a drum or thigh or breast if that is what they prefer and it made for a nice full box without over stuffing it.
No sauce or glaze because the meat had all the flavor it needed and I wanted to show that off, not cover it up. Also the skin was nice & crispy but not over done.

My scores came back at opposite ends. 1/2 the judges scored it with 8's & 9's accross the board and the other 1/2 gave me 5's & 6's...

Were they trying to tell me something? I find it hard to believe that 1/2 the judges thought it was some of the best and the other 1/2 thought it was dog food.

Since it's double blind I didn't see that there was any way for me to pick the judges brain to find out what it meant, if anything.

Thanks!

MilitantSquatter
12-24-2009, 01:05 PM
You may be trying to read into it too much since you're only having evaluating it after one contest.


While probably a unique entry (and unsauced as well) Since you only provided two of each section of the bird (not including the breast), you may have hurt your chances... Let's face it, thighs to best and any of the others are hit or miss... Also, breast meat after 10 minutes will dry out no matter how moist it is after it first comes off the pit.

You can try it again and make small changes and see if the results are the same or move with the pack and do what most others do, but hope to execute it better than most.

Ron_L
12-24-2009, 01:40 PM
There are so many possibilities... Half of the judges may have liked it without sauce and half wanted sauce, or the high scores were from judges who got a thigh or leg along with some breast and the lower scores may have come from judges who ended up with wings. Or, you could have been at a table with three generous judges and three grumpy one. As Milt said, one competition isn't enough to really tell.

goodsmokebbq
12-24-2009, 01:40 PM
What ^^^ said, it is only one contest, and don't worry you still won't understand after 20...

KnucklHed BBQ
12-24-2009, 01:59 PM
You may be trying to read into it too much since you're only having evaluating it after one contest.

Yeah, it's one of the thoughts that I've had, however, going against the grain as I did, I didn't want to jepordize my chances in future comps by being stubborn and "doing it my way" if it was a laughable "what's-this-guy-thinking?" offense to the judges

While probably a unique entry (and unsauced as well) Since you only provided two of each section of the bird (not including the breast), you may have hurt your chances... Let's face it, thighs to best and any of the others are hit or miss... Also, breast meat after 10 minutes will dry out no matter how moist it is after it first comes off the pit.

I considered this when building the box, here's what I did: Sliced 1 left and 1 right breast of the same size into equal # of pieces and then "sandwiched" them together in the middle of the box so that they made a heart shape, this way they were not exposed to the air and allowed to loose heat and moisture as quickly. I also deliberately turned my box in at the very last moment.

Is not saucing a big deal? In my oppinion, if you do the meat right (any meat) and it tastes great on it's own, then there is no reason to cover it up with a sauce, especially when you make it even tougher to get rid of rubbery skin. In the same breath, I really don't care for my competition ribs, but I make them because the judges usually do...

You can try it again and make small changes and see if the results are the same or move with the pack and do what most others do, but hope to execute it better than most.

Is there any value in showing the judges that you're capable of pulling off more than just the same ol' same ol'?
For instance, in the same event I served my butt 2 ways in the same box, lightly pulled (left larger chunks of the tubes and bark intact or only pulled in 1/2 so that more heat and moisture was held without adding any sauce) and sliced. I cooked a few butts to pulling temps and cooked 2 more to slicing temps and put the best from all of them in my box.

While 3rd place ain't too shabby when up against all of the big boys and their rigs, lil' old me's just using backyard equip... I'm also very aware that by doing slices AND pulled I've just added a whole 'nother set of variables to the game.
Would I have scored better just serving pulled? Did the sliced impress anyone at all? They were tender, juicy and flavorfull. Did my boxes scream NOOB! and therefore merit some simpathy scores? Several unknowns that I've unwittingly served up to myself...

More than anything, I just want to make sure that I'm not making too many classic mistakes that will hold me back. :biggrin:

Ford
12-24-2009, 04:11 PM
Here's a tip. Keep some chicken and taste it about 15 minutes after you turn in. That's what judges are tasting.

Now on scores - judges areinstructed to take a piece of each type of meat. As you did 2 drums, 2 thighs and 2 wings thethe first 2 judges could have taken 4 pieces and elft the other 4 with just breasts. If you do multiple pieces put 6 of each in the box to avoid problems.

BigJimsBBQ
12-24-2009, 05:29 PM
Here's a tip. Keep some chicken and taste it about 15 minutes after you turn in. That's what judges are tasting.

Great Tip to pass - Thanks

Now on scores - judges areinstructed to take a piece of each type of meat. As you did 2 drums, 2 thighs and 2 wings thethe first 2 judges could have taken 4 pieces and elft the other 4 with just breasts. If you do multiple pieces put 6 of each in the box to avoid problems.

Make that 8 pieces if doing FBA:

Buster Dog BBQ
12-24-2009, 06:01 PM
One thing about turning in pieces, whether it is brisket slices, ribs, or chicken. You always have the question that one piece may not be as good as others because it was dry or some other factor.

Vince RnQ
12-24-2009, 06:18 PM
...put 6 of each in the box to avoid problems.

"You're gonna need a bigger box."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DnPwaEn8aGE/SApm978-qFI/AAAAAAAAEs0/f5GgrpjfIVk/s400/headline_RoyScheider.jpg

Funtimebbq
12-24-2009, 06:47 PM
As a CBJ, I would have taken a slice of breast and one of the other pieces if there were any available (as Ford stated, they may have all been gone b4 the last judge gets a sample).
I would recommend, putting 6 of the same piece along with the breast slices so the judges can take one of each if that was your intent. Of course, that means cooking 3 whole birds.
Don't know if you have one, but a photo of the box would help.

Benny

trekmstr
12-25-2009, 08:28 AM
not being a sanctioned event it also leaves the question of were any of the judges given any training at all? or were they "guest" judges? in K.C.B.S. we are told to judge each piece separately not against the others. your judges may have judged your pieces against the rest on the ones they were dong and marked you down accordingly. my advice, would be to pick one piece for your box and do the sliced breast if you want (but you run the risk of adding an extra variable to your box that could be a problem. i.e. if you get marked down was it because the breast did dry out or did they find something about your thighs that they did not like?)

Prairie Smoke
12-28-2009, 10:31 AM
not being a sanctioned event

To clarify, the author stated it was a PNWBA-sanctioned event. Judges are trained not to compare entries, just like KCBS.

But this post is still on the money.
My question is: This event has not always been sanctioned... and it's in rural Montana, not exactly a hotbed of competitive BBQ. The judges were probably not all certified experienced judges; which just means you can't draw any conclusions from the scores. It sounds like you have a high degree of confidence in this chicken, maybe give it another shot?

KnucklHed BBQ
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
Thanks for the input fellas, I'm pretty sure that my problem was not having enough of each piece to grab, which might also tell me that the judes that did get 1 of each thought it was great, but the ones that didn't scored lower due to not getting all of what they were supposed to.

If some of you do me a favor, in q-talk I have a thread called "I thnk I've found it... No more rubbery skin??". Would you critique my pics pleas?
I- would link to it but I'm typing this onmy blackberry...

QansasjayhawQ
12-28-2009, 07:54 PM
Here you go;

http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75043

I would say that I judge each sample simply on how it tastes and well it is cooked. If it doesn't have sauce - that's fine with me. If it does, then that's fine too. As long as the entire ensemble makes beautiful music in my mouth . . . I will score it appropriately. What I prefer doesn't really matter . . . except maybe at the extremes.

All the above advice is good . . .

KnucklHed BBQ
12-28-2009, 09:25 PM
Here's a tip. Keep some chicken and taste it about 15 minutes after you turn in. That's what judges are tasting.

Great Tip to pass - Thanks ---> DITTO!

Now on scores - judges areinstructed to take a piece of each type of meat. As you did 2 drums, 2 thighs and 2 wings thethe first 2 judges could have taken 4 pieces and elft the other 4 with just breasts. If you do multiple pieces put 6 of each in the box to avoid problems.

Make that 8 pieces if doing FBA:

"You're gonna need a bigger box."

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DnPwaEn8aGE/SApm978-qFI/AAAAAAAAEs0/f5GgrpjfIVk/s400/headline_RoyScheider.jpg

Thanks for the pic, I needed that! :biggrin: I was thinking that I might need to duct tape 2 boxes together! Is duct tape considered a forein object??

As a CBJ, I would have taken a slice of breast and one of the other pieces if there were any available (as Ford stated, they may have all been gone b4 the last judge gets a sample).
I would recommend, putting 6 of the same piece along with the breast slices so the judges can take one of each if that was your intent. Of course, that means cooking 3 whole birds.
Don't know if you have one, but a photo of the box would help.

Benny

No Photo... was before my obsession with the Brethren began... thus before the need to document every meal consumed with photographic evidence. :wink:

To clarify, the author stated it was a PNWBA-sanctioned event. Judges are trained not to compare entries, just like KCBS.

Correct!!

But this post is still on the money.
My question is: This event has not always been sanctioned... and it's in rural Montana, not exactly a hotbed of competitive BBQ. The judges were probably not all certified experienced judges; which just means you can't draw any conclusions from the scores. It sounds like you have a high degree of confidence in this chicken, maybe give it another shot?

Umm, I dunno man, the president of the PNWBA, Tom Wallin, was competing in the site right next to me... as if I needed the extra intimidation/"you're probably doing it wrong" factor to be added in... I beat him in brisket though... :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: He took 4th, I took 3rd. His brisket was truely better than mine, dunno how that happened, got lucky... He whooped my ass in butt tho, results of that comp (http://www.pnwba.com/results_2009/montana_overall_scores.pdf)if you care. We were team RiboLator (my old man) and Tom is Dances with Smoke.

Edit:
Forgot to mention, what really fried me about our chicken (pun intended) is that we were only 20 pts behind the GC, IF we had scored consistently across the board on chicken, it's quite likely that we would have had the 20 pts needed. I know... Shoulda-Coulda-Woulda.

Anyone had a chance to look at the other thread and give some suggestions on my quest for better skin? http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=75043

Thanks a heap!

swamprb
12-28-2009, 11:00 PM
Hey Ryan-

If you are referring to the Shoreline Central Market Backyard Cookoff, I saw only 3 PNWBA members (Non Sanctioned) that were involved in the judging and I suspect that 2 of them were involved in instructing the judges that day. I know for a fact that 3 judges walked off and left midway through the turn ins and were seen eating pulled pork sandwiches and complaining of the lack of "good BBQ!"
I was one of three comp teams that cook PNWBA events and we all finished in the top 5
that day, and for me the "fancy restaurant plating and garnish" threw me for a loop. but it was still a fun event.
As far as the Stevensville MT comp goes, I'm pretty sure that in the past it had been a KCBS sanctioned event, but with the demise of the Western BBQ Assn. KCBS events are far and few between. It's comps like this that need local support-the fact you mentioned cooking next to the Prez TW, its guys like him that will drive the distance to see other parts of the country and meet new people and walk away with the goods-no wonder he was Team of the Year. I know the head judges are from the Portland OR area and had been talking up the contest months trying to get trained CBJ's to attend, but it still takes local support.
C'mon out in the Spring and take a PNWBA Cooking or Judging class and take what you learned back and plant that seed in Montana!

I'd like to get B-O-B involved, but I don't think he wants to give up his gasser! You better lend him a Traeger-I'll give him a Drum!

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 12:13 AM
Hey Ryan-

If you are referring to the Shoreline Central Market Backyard Cookoff, I saw only 3 PNWBA members (Non Sanctioned) that were involved in the judging and I suspect that 2 of them were involved in instructing the judges that day. I know for a fact that 3 judges walked off and left midway through the turn ins and were seen eating pulled pork sandwiches and complaining of the lack of "good BBQ!"
I was one of three comp teams that cook PNWBA events and we all finished in the top 5
that day, and for me the "fancy restaurant plating and garnish" threw me for a loop. but it was still a fun event.
As far as the Stevensville MT comp goes, I'm pretty sure that in the past it had been a KCBS sanctioned event, but with the demise of the Western BBQ Assn. KCBS events are far and few between. It's comps like this that need local support-the fact you mentioned cooking next to the Prez TW, its guys like him that will drive the distance to see other parts of the country and meet new people and walk away with the goods-no wonder he was Team of the Year. I know the head judges are from the Portland OR area and had been talking up the contest months trying to get trained CBJ's to attend, but it still takes local support.
C'mon out in the Spring and take a PNWBA Cooking or Judging class and take what you learned back and plant that seed in Montana!

I'd like to get B-O-B involved, but I don't think he wants to give up his gasser! You better lend him a Traeger-I'll give him a Drum!

Yup central mkt was the BYard I was refering to, I know that Lynn Brokaw and the older fella (why can't I remember his name??) were there as PNWBA members, and judging coaches, was it Zach Lyons that was the 3rd PNWBA member? He and I usually end up chatting for a bit each year...

I can see how the plating would throw ya for a loop if you're not ready for it... I usually have 1 person that is just in charge of coming up with the plating ideas for each turn in. At first I tried to keep my plate simple and to the point, but the problem with that is it only takes one A-hole to go all fancy and now you look like you didn't even try! So we go big with it.

I would love to come out for a CBJ class, I also plan on working with Whitefish/Big mountain resort to host a sanctioned event in mid - late sept at the same time that they hold their annual brew fest. Right now as their brewfest stands, you drive 10 miles up a windy mountain road, chug some beer and hope to god your swerving capabilities are top notch and you make it home safe... I'd like to add BBQ to that equation. :biggrin:

As for gettin' that old man of mine to even try lighting a briquette, well I'm not sure that will ever happen... you'd think that getting to use a weed burner to fire up your cooking vessel would be motivation enough. The man has no patience. No patience = Grilled Foods, didn't his ribs off the gasser beat your ribs that day? Sorry couldn't resist, just goes to show that most of those judges didn't know what they were tasting...

Have you seen the kick ass trophies they hand out to the top 3 of each category at Stevensville?? It's worth going just to hope to walk for 1!!

Check it... Big ol' laser cutout steel trophs, me likey!

http://i965.photobucket.com/albums/ae133/knucklhedbbq/DSC07028Large.jpg

Alexa RnQ
12-29-2009, 12:17 AM
:shock:

I LOVE those trophies!!!! http://www.divaherself.com/funny/hearteyes.gif

JD McGee
12-29-2009, 12:45 AM
Depending on what the schedule looks like this year we may have to make a trip out your way to see about getting one of those laser cut trophies...:wink:
Best piece of advice I can offer on your chicken is to cook for the local judges...:cool:

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 12:51 AM
:shock:

I LOVE those trophies!!!! http://www.divaherself.com/funny/hearteyes.gif

Do I see Ms. Diva making an appearance in Stevensville, MT this next year? Just don't take all the trophies, I need a 1st placer for my collection!

Check out what the GC Looks like... changes a bit every year in theme, but even the RGC looks just as kick ass... No idea what the guys at this link's Q is like, BUT, I haven't tasted a whole lot in NW MT that I've been pleased with, most of it's poo pretending to be Q. Let's call it Poo-B-Q. - http://www.teddybearbbq.com/images/02-03-MTTrophies.jpg

Alexa RnQ
12-29-2009, 12:55 AM
I heart those so harrrrrd!!!!!

It's only 18 hours away. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 01:06 AM
Depending on what the schedule looks like this year we may have to make a trip out your way to see about getting one of those laser cut trophies...:wink:
Best piece of advice I can offer on your chicken is to cook for the local judges...:cool:

Heck yeah, you & brian load up what ever you think will earn you a walk and common' out! Heck get Mikey out here too!
I'll persuade the B-O-B to make the trip and we can all play with matches together! Yay!

Sounds like Diva is in... :icon_bigsmil

Early August it usually is.

Umm about cookin' for the local judges... WHAT LOCAL JUDGES??? HAVE YOU SEEN A MAP OF WHERE STEVENSVILLE IS??? My god man, a bird crapped off the main highway and someone decided to build Stevensville on it! This BBQ event is their whole summer outing wrapped into 1!!

Great thing about this comp is that MT's food service laws are so lax (is that a good thing??) that anyone can sell food to make up for the cost of travel and comp expenses. B-O-B & I sold about 100+ pulled pork sammies (8 butts) for $7 each... certainly didn't make money but it helped out anyways.
One team there sold almost $5k in food for the 3 days, oh, the event does take 25%... kinda sucks but it's a fund raiser for them.

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 01:17 AM
I heart those so harrrrrd!!!!!

It's only 18 hours away. http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

On second thought Ms. Diva, after I've read your 3rd annual stagecoach BBQ page, I realize that my invitation was made in complete and absolute ignorance. I would like to respectfully ask you to remain in your 9th ring of hell and if I manage to scrape together a GC, I will send it your way for safe keeping. Deal?? =) Please?
If you decide to come anyways can I pretend to be your wannabe pit bitch??

JD McGee
12-29-2009, 10:34 AM
"Umm about cookin' for the local judges... WHAT LOCAL JUDGES??? HAVE YOU SEEN A MAP OF WHERE STEVENSVILLE IS??? My god man, a bird crapped off the main highway and someone decided to build Stevensville on it! This BBQ event is their whole summer outing wrapped into 1!!"


LOFLMAO...!!! :lol::lol::lol:

Scottie
12-29-2009, 10:49 AM
Stevensville? Is this a sanctioned contest? I need to do a Montana contest and it looks like it's only 24 hours away... Which happens to be in my range... :cool:

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 01:01 PM
Stevensville? Is this a sanctioned contest? I need to do a Montana contest and it looks like it's only 24 hours away... Which happens to be in my range... :cool:


Dear God, What have I done??

Ok, I should come clean, there's no comp in MT, I was making it aaalllll up. Ha-Ha, funny joke right?? Man, I got you good!!

So seriously, just, uhh, stick to you're fancy-schmancy "Jack's" & "Royal's" and other big boy shows and let us little fella's think that we have a chance at pretending to know what we're doing. :biggrin: Thank you.

And if you do decide to come play in my backyard, can I be your bitch for the weekend? I'll keep the Montana Militia away...

"We got guns up in this, b*tches!!" :tongue:

Ry

Scottie
12-29-2009, 01:25 PM
Dear God, What have I done??

Ok, I should come clean, there's no comp in MT, I was making it aaalllll up. Ha-Ha, funny joke right?? Man, I got you good!!

So seriously, just, uhh, stick to you're fancy-schmancy "Jack's" & "Royal's" and other big boy shows and let us little fella's think that we have a chance at pretending to know what we're doing. :biggrin: Thank you.

And if you do decide to come play in my backyard, can I be your bitch for the weekend? I'll keep the Montana Militia away...

"We got guns up in this, b*tches!!" :tongue:

Ry


My goals as a BBQ team are simple... I want to cook in all the states... I have covered 24 so far, am always looking for more that I have not covered... Yet at least...

swamprb
12-29-2009, 01:55 PM
The 2010 PNWBA Schedule of Events is still in the works, but from what I've been hearing it should be an exciting year!
http://www.pnwba.com/
The Stevensville Montana event was held August 7-8 2009 and it was the 8th year and is a State Championship.

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 02:04 PM
My goals as a BBQ team are simple... I want to cook in all the states... I have covered 24 so far, am always looking for more that I have not covered... Yet at least...

Yeah but have you ever driven through eastern Montana?? It never ends! It's like a lifetime of blacktop-torture wondering if it will ever end.
I wouldn't want you to suffer through that expirence... :wink:

Edit:
I wish I had the time and freedom to hit comps all over the country... one of my dreams. Right next to having my own BBQ & Brewery. Unfortunately having a brewery and a restaraunt in the same building is not permitted in Montana... old post-prohibition law. A brewery may not sell any food, even snacks. :roll: Oh, and the brewery may not leagally serve you more than 3 - 16oz servings of beer in a 24 hour period, and they must be closed down and patrons out the door by 8pm. Never seen anyone patroling brewerys tho...

The 2010 PNWBA Schedule of Events is still in the works, but from what I've been hearing it should be an exciting year!
http://www.pnwba.com/
The Stevensville Montana event was held August 7-8 2009 and it was the 8th year and is a State Championship.

Well thank you Mr. Knowitall! I'm trying to keep these folks outta here and stop the massive hemorraging that I've started!
If you could be a little less enthusiastic it would help. :biggrin: In fact, No more posting on this thread so that it gets burried and forgotten!

Starting... NOW!

swamprb
12-29-2009, 02:10 PM
Well thank you Mr. Knowitall! I'm trying to keep these folks outta here and stop the massive hemorraging that I've started!
If you could be a little less enthusiastic it would help. :biggrin: In fact, No more posting on this thread so that it gets burried and forgotten!

Starting... NOW!

You better stay in the Backyard then!:twisted:

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 02:12 PM
Yer probably right... ;)

JD McGee
12-29-2009, 03:36 PM
The 2010 PNWBA Schedule of Events is still in the works, but from what I've been hearing it should be an exciting year!
http://www.pnwba.com/
The Stevensville Montana event was held August 7-8 2009 and it was the 8th year and is a State Championship.

Yeah but have you ever driven through eastern Montana?? It never ends! It's like a lifetime of blacktop-torture wondering if it will ever end.
I wouldn't want you to suffer through that expirence... :wink:

Edit:
I wish I had the time and freedom to hit comps all over the country... one of my dreams. Right next to having my own BBQ & Brewery. Unfortunately having a brewery and a restaraunt in the same building is not permitted in Montana... old post-prohibition law. A brewery may not sell any food, even snacks. :roll: Oh, and the brewery may not leagally serve you more than 3 - 16oz servings of beer in a 24 hour period, and they must be closed down and patrons out the door by 8pm. Never seen anyone patroling brewerys tho...



Well thank you Mr. Knowitall! I'm trying to keep these folks outta here and stop the massive hemorraging that I've started!
If you could be a little less enthusiastic it would help. :biggrin: In fact, No more posting on this thread so that it gets burried and forgotten!

Starting... NOW!

Here's a little something to refresh your memory Ryan...
http://www.pnwba.com/ContestApps/2009/stevensville_2009.pdf
Just tryin' to help a brother out...:twisted:

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 03:43 PM
Here's a little something to refresh your memory Ryan...
http://www.pnwba.com/ContestApps/2009/stevensville_2009.pdf
Just tryin' to help a brother out...:twisted:


Hmm... nope. can't say that it helps... Pretty sure that's a fake entry form... Nice work on it BTW! Looks authentic! :biggrin:

I'll be sure to let Tim know that there are some infiltraters that will be trying to enter this year... problem solved. :tongue:

KnucklHed BBQ
12-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Dang it! You tricked me into posting again!

Has this thread deviated far enough from topic yet??

JD McGee
12-29-2009, 03:54 PM
Dang it! You tricked me into posting again!

Has this thread deviated far enough from topic yet??

What was the topic again? Oh yeah...how to win one of those cool laser trophies! :twisted::lol: No wait...something about chicken skin...:?::?::?: