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Smokin' Joe
10-18-2009, 08:52 AM
I see they have a new survey on the KCBS site asking for feedback on changes to the TOY race. I'm not sure where I stand on this...at first I thoguht they have a weighted average of every competition entered by a team to help even the field between teams that cook 10 comps and teams that cook 35 comps, but I see holes in that too now....your thoughts?

KCBS - Team of the Year online survey


Please help better KCBS

We are asking your opinion as a KCBS cook on the topic of Team of the Year. As a cook you are directly affected by how Team of the Year is run. We want this to be as fair as possible so that all KCBS cooks have the opportunity to win the title of Team of The Year.

This survey does not suggest nor guarantee that the current Team of The Year format is going to change.

This survey will run through Nov 30, 2009





Are you a cook on a KCBS team? *


Do you agree with the current scoring system for Team of the Year (TOY)? * The current system may be reviewed at http://www.kcbs.us/rankings.php



Do you think the current scoring system for TOY allows all members the same opportunity to win TOY? *



Would you like to see Divisions? *



Should we have more than one TOY? * Sponsored and Non-Sponsored



Should there be monetary prizes awarded to the TOY? *

Ron_L
10-18-2009, 09:02 AM
Thanks, Joe. I'll head over there and add my $.02

I think some way to even things out between the occasional cook and the guys who cook 30+ times would be great, but I'm not sure how to do it. Maybe divisions? I don't know.

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 09:35 AM
I have proposed divisions that are location based
6 separate races by location/ Team count in the area
(KC MO would be a small geographical area, The Pacific West would be huge)
This would be for non sponsored teams
Best 7 to 10 scores TBD

Then leaving the Touring Pros Division as it is

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 10:02 AM
I have proposed divisions that are location based
6 separate races by location/ Team count in the area
(KC MO would be a small geographical area, The Pacific West would be huge)
This would be for non sponsored teams
Best 7 to 10 scores TBD

Then leaving the Touring Pros Division as it is

How would you propose sponsored teams be verified / tracked ?

Is the team who gets a few free bottles of rub, sauce etc. equally sponsored to the team who gets some something believed to be more valuable , hangs a banner etc. ?

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 02:35 PM
The Touring Pro Div. is the National KCBS ToY as we know it now
The Regional Champs are, just that Guys that just cant or do not want to travel
A Head Cook would have to declare for whichever race he wanted to cook in
prior to the start of the season

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 02:55 PM
Yes I would think state boarders would be best for dividing lines
A region would be made up using Number of contests, number of cooks,
in a given area to create a "average"
The Northwest and Texas are huge KCBS "deadzones"
They would be added in as best they can
Yes there are regional or state organizations that have similar contests
But I doubt well maybe New England But most others would be smaller in landmass
The KCMO Crown would be one heck of a race in a relatively small area
The MidSouth Race also
The Pacific 10 West could end up being just that, 10 states

Jacked UP BBQ
10-18-2009, 05:33 PM
There win are many teams in the NE that could win this but there are not comps within an hour of their houses everyweek all year round. A few New england teams and 3 eyz from maryland consistantly whoop ass but only do say 15 contests but the guy that does 30 and who is usually in the middle of the road and maybe wins one contest will win because of the way the numbers work. If a team can only afford to do 3 comps a year and they kick ass in everyone, should they have no chance of winning team of the year? I am not sure about that, there should be a minimum of around 10 imo. They def need to re do the way the system works

Jorge
10-18-2009, 05:37 PM
One organization/One Champion. I can understand the need to draw a line based on the # of contests cooked and recognize those that don't travel however. Drawing geographic borders and having multiple champions....seems redundant and waters down the pool.

Hell, it's hard enough for elected officials to draw the lines for us to vote after a census. I'm not asking the BoD to get into that.

Pick a # and draw the line, but I want to see anyone willing to travel to cook against the best competition available on any given weekend rewarded.

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 05:38 PM
There win are many teams in the NE that could win this but there are not comps within an hour of their houses everyweek all year round. A few New england teams and 3 eyz from maryland consistantly whoop ass but only do say 15 contests but the guy that does 30 and who is usually in the middle of the road and maybe wins one contest will win because of the way the numbers work. If a team can only afford to do 3 comps a year and they kick ass in everyone, should they have no chance of winning team of the year? I am not sure about that, there should be a minimum of around 10 imo. They def need to re do the way the system works

The current TOY scoring is based on your best 10 contest placings.. Any contests over 10 are only accretive to the difference of your lowest score now being dropped.

Buster Dog BBQ
10-18-2009, 06:13 PM
Well, by looking at the top 10 KCBS overall, each of them are listed on The Pickled Pig's site as a top 25 for most grands in a year. So it seems like things are working.

How do you do regions? There are several teams that travel around the country and win.

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 06:40 PM
I took a look at the teams with 4 or more GC's this year to see what their "win %" was

Regardless of team count which KCBS currently factors in, what stands out for me here is that Lo N Slo has the best winning % at 40% but they are currently ranked 22. To put it in perspective, the KCBS 8th ranked team, Quau, has a .117 win % with same # of GC's but gets higher placing for # of teams competed against.


6 wins
Smoke on Wheels 6 of 18 (.333) KCBS # 7
Iowa's Smokey D's BBQ 6 of 20 (.300) KCBS #2
Pellet Envy 6 of 23 (.260) KCBS # 1

5 wins
JP Custom Smoke 5 of 24 (.208) KCBS # 11
Muchin Hogs at the Hilton 5 of 28 (.178) KCBS #3
4 Legs Up BBQ 5 of 29 (.172) KCBS #4

4 wins
Lo N Slo BBQ 4 of 10 (.400) KCBS #22
Great Grills O Fire 4 of 13 (.307) KCBS #21
I Smell Smoke 4 of 15 (.266) KCBS #13
Pork Pullin Plowboys 4 of 16 (.250) KCBS # 14
Butcher BBQ 4 of 22 (.181) KCBS # 5
Quau 4 of 34 (.117) KCBS # 8

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 06:41 PM
I am proposing adding another level
The Touring Pro ToY Champion is clearly the National Champion
The Regional Champs give folks another option
It would be fun to see the Regional Champions in a year end face off event

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 06:46 PM
I am proposing adding another level
The Touring Pro ToY Champion is clearly the National Champion
The Regional Champs give folks another option
It would be fun to see the Regional Champions in a year end face off event

Tom - I'm with Jorge.. one org = one winner. To me it's more a matter of ensuring the best method to include the most # of teams.. While I still don't know if 10 contests is the magic #, it appears to be working.. I was skeptical at first but I think it works.

I don't think a regional contest would work with so few teams.. plus they'd have to travel to get somewhere which was the opposite of what qualified them to win regionally.

Jorge
10-18-2009, 06:48 PM
I am proposing adding another level
The Touring Pro ToY Champion is clearly the National Champion
The Regional Champs give folks another option
It would be fun to see the Regional Champions in a year end face off event


How realistic do you think that is? They are all qualified for the Royal, one or all of them may qualify for the Jack. If they aren't already traveling, what inducement other than some sort of showdown do they have?

If ALL of them don't show up, then what do you have?

I'm not seeing the benefit in the big picture.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 06:53 PM
Apparently, someone isn't up on current events. :mrgreen:

Pork Pullin Plowboys 5 of 17 (.294) KCBS # 11?

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 07:07 PM
Apparently, someone isn't up on current events. :mrgreen:

Pork Pullin Plowboys 5 of 17 (.294) KCBS # 11?

I took the total contest/GC data from Pickled Pig's site.. I don't think he and/KCBS count the invitationals.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 07:08 PM
I took the total contest/GC data from Pickled Pig's site.. I don't think he and/KCBS count the invitationals.

I won yesterday, so that makes 5 + the Invitational. (Just yanking ya.)

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 07:26 PM
Many sports have Regional Champions and a National Champion
Guys The growing distance from the Touring Pros to the rest of the teams
is all I am trying to address. A Contest of Regional Champs probably would require
outside $$ to make it happen........ Not the best timing for that
I am sorry but "one organization one champion" thinking could be limiting
to possible preferred futures. :) One thing is sure Thom and Kyles BBQ
wont be as factor in any of these :)

Alexa RnQ
10-18-2009, 07:34 PM
I don't see the benefit of diluting the concept of Team of the Year by creating multiple championships. I do, however, see the benefit in capping the number of contests considered, as was done this year using each team's top 10 scores. That puts the effective number of contests considered within reach of many more teams than the 30+/year group.

The bonus points for megacontests is a factor whose impact I'd like to see reduced. We have huge geographic regions that just don't have that kind of contest -- if a truly level playing field is desired, why skew it for those who live within striking distance of those?

While the concept of a "batting average" has some merit, I think there is also value in a team's willingness to go out and put it on the line and consistently turn in excellent performances, so I like the 10-contest format better than averaging.

CivilWarBBQ
10-18-2009, 08:34 PM
I think Thom's ideas have merit.

Just as there is a minor league system in baseball, I think it would be a good thing for KCBS to find a way to permit more people to become involved with the organization than the very few who have the time and money to compete for the existing TOTY. The existence of the minor league baseball teams does not "water down" the prestige of the World Series, rather it enhances it by making the sport more accessible to more people.

Currently, the majority of cooks outside of the KC area have only a passing relationship with KCBS; perhaps they receive the Bullsheet, but some don't see that as sufficient return on their membership dollars. As most cooks compete in LESS than ten events per season, the odds of them contending for TOTY are so low it doesn't hold much interest.

Again, I believe any program that expands the role of KCBS in the mind of the average cook beyond "the outfit that provides the score sheets and rep in exchange for my entry fee" is a good thing.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 08:51 PM
I live in KC, and I probably have the same relationship with KCBS as 99% of the cooks across the country. We have more contests around here, but we have more teams as well. KCBS is about as visible on the local scene in KC as any other part of the country.

CivilWarBBQ
10-18-2009, 09:02 PM
Prehaps, but you do have opportunities to participate in meetings and the Royal which most of us three states away do not. And the large number of nearby contests makes it even possible to compete for TOTY. What about folks who live in states that only have a couple KCBS contests each year?

Regardless, Thom's proposal includes KC as it's own region, giving equal benefits to that area as any other part of the country.

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 09:34 PM
A KC Guy shared with me once about "losing the local organization" to the national goals
From his point of view NOT being from KC was better because there are smaller localized groups and state associations
available in many locations other than KC

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 09:40 PM
Prehaps, but you do have opportunities to participate in meetings and the Royal which most of us three states away do not. And the large number of nearby contests makes it even possible to compete for TOTY. What about folks who live in states that only have a couple KCBS contests each year?

Regardless, Thom's proposal includes KC as it's own region, giving equal benefits to that area as any other part of the country.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said other than some perception that KC teams have a different relationship with KCBS than any other team outside of this area. That is a perception that is flat wrong that people outside of KC seem happy to make. If anything, we are UNDER represented here. Of our three KC BOD members, only one is worth their salt.

The Royal has nothing to do with KCBS other than being another sanctioned contest, so I don't get that one.

Anyone can "participate" (aka listen in) on KCBS BOD meetings without being in KC, so I don't get that either.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 09:44 PM
A KC Guy shared with me once about "losing the local organization" to the national goals
From his point of view NOT being from KC was better because there are smaller localized groups and state associations
available in many locations other than KC

I don't know about "losing" the local organization per se, but your second point is what I was trying to say about my area being under represented. We don't have anyone supporting local contests and teams like other areas have in their regional BBQ associations and societies. Kookers Kare has stepped in for our local banquet. Even in 2010 when the KCBS banquet is back in KC... it isn't a local banquet... it is a national one. And that is okay, but we do have a gap here that needs to be filled at the local level that once was KCBS.

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 09:47 PM
He was relating to the past when there was a local feel to KCBS

CivilWarBBQ
10-18-2009, 09:49 PM
We certainly agree there, Todd.

I think KCBS is missing the boat on not actively pursuing alliances & dual membership agreements with as many regional groups as possible. As these organizations grow in popularity they cause a percentage of KCBS membership to defect in favor of the regional group, and that's a shame.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Thom,

Don't local organizations like NEBS, Iowa BBQ Society, AZ BBQ Association and others have TOY races already? Doesn't that satisfy the regional TOY need already? Thoughts?

Buster Dog BBQ
10-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Todd, are you referring to like how Iowa has their association and NEBS has something too? Here in Iowa, we have a team of the year that is only for Iowa teams and they only have to cook 4 contest to qualify, despite at one point having close to 10 in the state.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 09:52 PM
We certainly agree there, Todd.

I think KCBS is missing the boat on not actively pursuing alliances & dual membership agreements with as many regional groups as possible. As these organizations grow in popularity they cause a percentage of KCBS membership to defect in favor of the regional group, and that's a shame.

I agree. More partnerships seems sensible to me.

Plowboy
10-18-2009, 09:55 PM
Todd, are you referring to like how Iowa has their association and NEBS has something too? Here in Iowa, we have a team of the year that is only for Iowa teams and they only have to cook 4 contest to qualify, despite at one point having close to 10 in the state.

Exactly. Why the need for a KCBS TOY for the greater Iowa area and then have an Iowa BBQ society TOY? New England is a better example. Why have a NEBS TOY and a KCBS NE Regional TOY. Is that redundant? I'm just asking.

Is it just Iowa teams, or Iowa BBQ Society members?

ThomEmery
10-18-2009, 09:59 PM
Thom,

Don't local organizations like NEBS, Iowa BBQ Society, AZ BBQ Association and others have TOY races already? Doesn't that satisfy the regional TOY need already? Thoughts?

Yes many groups do in their own state
Going with 6 regions obviously would cover more ground than a single state group can
:) other than KCMO area

Todd :) with your year I am thinking these regional races would not work for you anymore

Buster Dog BBQ
10-18-2009, 10:07 PM
Exactly. Why the need for a KCBS TOY for the greater Iowa area and then have an Iowa BBQ society TOY? New England is a better example. Why have a NEBS TOY and a KCBS NE Regional TOY. Is that redundant? I'm just asking.

Is it just Iowa teams, or Iowa BBQ Society members?
Members only who are residents in Iowa.

Omaha has GOBS where they do a team of year and Minnesota just started an association this year too.

Diva
10-18-2009, 11:02 PM
BBQ has grown. We all know that. Dividing the TOY into regions...crap. I've been around for YEARS.....Lots of people have thought of KCBS as a 'regional' organization. So, KCBS changed the TOY format to 'include everyone'.....FANTASTIC! Look at the TOY from years past.....there weren't New England teams or California teams ANYWHERE....now, there are. We, TheSlabs.com are, fortunately, able to cook 30+ contests a year all around the country....just because we're able to, should we be 'classified'.....I think not. If KCBS is taking your best 10, why should it be divided? It shouldn't. Its one organization, period. The teams that are top 10, are top 10 in the COUNTRY, not in a 'division'.

ThomEmery
10-19-2009, 07:59 AM
BBQ has grown. We all know that. Dividing the TOY into regions...crap. I've been around for YEARS.....Lots of people have thought of KCBS as a 'regional' organization. So, KCBS changed the TOY format to 'include everyone'.....FANTASTIC! Look at the TOY from years past.....there weren't New England teams or California teams ANYWHERE....now, there are. We, TheSlabs.com are, fortunately, able to cook 30+ contests a year all around the country....just because we're able to, should we be 'classified'.....I think not. If KCBS is taking your best 10, why should it be divided? It shouldn't. Its one organization, period. The teams that are top 10, are top 10 in the COUNTRY, not in a 'division'.

The National ToY would not be effected by any of this. I assume that is the race that interests you most. These lower divisions are not for teams that can cook 30 plus events.

Diva
10-19-2009, 08:05 AM
The National ToY would not be effected by any of this. I assume that is the race that interests you most. These lower divisions are not for teams that can cook 30 plus events.

That sounds like a huge undertaking. I'm sure the KCBS office has more than enough on their plate as it is.

ThomEmery
10-19-2009, 08:19 AM
Maybe.............
But If we allow difficulty to decide our future.




Been fun got to go wrangle trash cans

Jacked UP BBQ
10-19-2009, 09:17 AM
I was misinformed when thinking that it was done by overall points. I had no idea that they took your top ten finishes. With that, I think it is fair.

Jorge
10-19-2009, 09:40 AM
The bonus points for megacontests is a factor whose impact I'd like to see reduced. We have huge geographic regions that just don't have that kind of contest -- if a truly level playing field is desired, why skew it for those who live within striking distance of those?



I've heard that point before. How would you propose reducing the impact?

I understand your point, and don't completely disagree...but at the same time I think a team that chooses to cook one of those events, with the talent that many of them draw, deserve to be rewarded for taking on a very stout field.

YankeeBBQ
10-19-2009, 09:54 AM
I've heard that point before. How would you propose reducing the impact?

I understand your point, and don't completely disagree...but at the same time I think a team that chooses to cook one of those events, with the talent that many of them draw, deserve to be rewarded for taking on a very stout field.

I disagree. I've seen 30 team contests with fields as difficult as some of the mega contests. We all compete under the same scoring system why not just count the actual contest score for TOY and do away with bonus points for number of teams.

Jorge
10-19-2009, 10:06 AM
I disagree. I've seen 30 team contests with fields as difficult as some of the mega contests. We all compete under the same scoring system why not just count the actual contest score for TOY and do away with bonus points for number of teams.

I'm sure some folks would want to argue CBJ percentages, and the fear that a 'rogue judge' or two could potentially impact TOY standings.

On the other hand, I like the idea a lot. A score is a score regardless of who shows up.

YankeeBBQ for President!

Plowboy
10-19-2009, 10:29 AM
Reducing mega contest impact is something I could get behind. Not eliminating bonus points, but giving them a little less weight or making the cap smaller.

Squeeze
10-19-2009, 12:07 PM
A simple solution to this would be to keep the TOY process the same except change the bonus points from 100 to 50. By doing that, it would create a fully level playing field for all teams in all parts of the country. Example, last year, if a team won 9 50 team contests then won the Royal open, they would not have won the Team of the Year crown based solely on bonus points. By taking it to 50 points max, it makes it a true Best of KCBS.

ique
10-19-2009, 12:21 PM
The bonus points for megacontests is a factor whose impact I'd like to see reduced. We have huge geographic regions that just don't have that kind of contest -- if a truly level playing field is desired, why skew it for those who live within striking distance of those?

Its actually better than it used to be. A few years ago when it was double or triple points for winning a big contest made it close to impossible for teams on the coasts to compete. With the new bonus points system there is still that weighting but not as drastic.

I disagree. I've seen 30 team contests with fields as difficult as some of the mega contests. We all compete under the same scoring system why not just count the actual contest score for TOY and do away with bonus points for number of teams.

I think this works great in New England where we are working with the same pool of judges at most contests. But from region to region there seems to be a lot of variability in the score that wins a contest. 630 wins contests in New England frequently. Other parts of the country that NEVER wins, more like 670-680.

I agree that there are some 30 team contests that are just as difficult. "Strength of field" may be a good way to give bonus points instead of just relying on number of teams.

The other stat I'd like to see involved is winning %. A team should be rewarded for winning 10 of 15 contests vs a team winning 10 of 40 contests.

Alexa RnQ
10-19-2009, 12:55 PM
A simple solution to this would be to keep the TOY process the same except change the bonus points from 100 to 50.
This is right where I would be. 50 rewards teams for taking on larger contests, but doesn't totally blow off areas whose contests are more usually in the 25-40 team size.

Its actually better than it used to be. A few years ago when it was double or triple points for winning a big contest made it close to impossible for teams on the coasts to compete.
Exactly -- under the multiplied bonus points system, KCBS ToY became largely irrelevant to the majority of teams.

from region to region there seems to be a lot of variability in the score that wins a contest. 630 wins contests in New England frequently. Other parts of the country that NEVER wins, more like 670-680.
Absolutely. Until the disparity in scoring between regions is leveled out, taking numeric scores will again penalize some areas.

The other stat I'd like to see involved is winning %. A team should be rewarded for winning 10 of 15 contests vs a team winning 10 of 40 contests.
Which will possibly encourage *some* teams to try to cherry-pick contests where the field is perceived as weaker, instead of going out and taking on the best competition they can find. If I pick ONE contest and GC it, there's my 100% -- where's my incentive to compete more, aside from personal integrity and competitive drive? Most teams wouldn't just sit on that batting average, but then again....

KC_Bobby
10-19-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree that there are some 30 team contests that are just as difficult. "Strength of field" may be a good way to give bonus points instead of just relying on number of teams.


Would strength of field points change as the year went on or would the strength of field be determined by teams finishes the year prior?

The smallest comp we did this year had only 25 teams ... however, of those 25, 11 teams accounted for 28 GC's so far this year ... fortunately, only 6 of the teams had been to the Jack before. :rolleyes: Yeah, I'd guess that comp had a bit more strength then 1 or 2 of the others we did that had 40-60 or so teams.

Podge
10-19-2009, 02:06 PM
SORRY to change the subject, but it'd been nice to have a poll about what the rule change should be in regards to pork.

to keep on point of the subject, i batted .333 for GC's in this year. Would have it been nice to be in some sort of regional points chase ???.. sure !!.. But, I belong to KCBS, and whatever they decide to do, I'll have to accept it, or i could just quit competing and come up with another BBQ sactioning body if I don't like it.

Plowboy
10-19-2009, 02:09 PM
Its actually better than it used to be. A few years ago when it was double or triple points for winning a big contest made it close to impossible for teams on the coasts to compete. With the new bonus points system there is still that weighting but not as drastic.

Heck yes. NEBS has two top 10 teams now: ISS and Smoke on Wheels. Wicked ahsome!

ThomEmery
10-19-2009, 04:23 PM
Maybe the good folks at the BCS could help with this process.
:)

Paola Greg
10-19-2009, 04:43 PM
I voted;
Yes
Yes
No
No
No
Yes

ique
10-19-2009, 05:36 PM
Which will possibly encourage *some* teams to try to cherry-pick contests where the field is perceived as weaker, instead of going out and taking on the best competition they can find. If I pick ONE contest and GC it, there's my 100% -- where's my incentive to compete more, aside from personal integrity and competitive drive? Most teams wouldn't just sit on that batting average, but then again....

I wouldn't imagine a Win% being a huge factor. Maybe just enough that if three teams were basically tied 7, 8, 9... the team with the best winning % would get the highest placing

Lakeside Smoker
10-19-2009, 07:34 PM
The other stat I'd like to see involved is winning %. A team should be rewarded for winning 10 of 15 contests vs a team winning 10 of 40 contests.

Yeah, that would be cool.
We're at 50% (3 out of 6) this year, but we're in 128th place.

Muzzlebrake
10-19-2009, 10:12 PM
Heck yes. NEBS has two top 10 teams now: ISS and Smoke on Wheels. Wicked ahsome!

:biggrin:

dhuffjr
10-20-2009, 12:03 PM
I would like to see a way to sort the results by number of contests cooked. That way us teams that are not doing a bunch of comps a year can really see were we stand against our relative peers.

Scottie
10-20-2009, 12:16 PM
About the only thing that I would like to see "tweaked" is to do away with the huge bonus points. Maybe cut it from 100 to 50? There is only one region that has huge contests like that. Not saying that an occational one won't show up in other regions, but they have a lot to choose from in the KC region. So it favors those cooks or one's that are willing to go and cook in a 100 team contest that has $3k for a prize fund. Won't find too many traveling teams doing that just for bonus points...


As for having things "watered" down. Just give everyone a ribbon and that should make everyone happy is my feeling. You want to win TOY, go out and cook contests. But I don't feel we should cheapen anything by allowing a team that only cooks in 3 contests a year wanting to be recognized...

FWIW if you don't think that the top teams in KCBS are not the one's listed, then you are nuts. Having been in a race last year, I know what it takes.

Smokin' Joe
10-20-2009, 12:24 PM
FWIW if you don't think that the top teams in KCBS are not the one's listed, then you are nuts. Having been in a race last year, I know what it takes.


I think this is the best case made yet for leave it the way it is...

Coz
10-20-2009, 05:16 PM
As one of the smaller teams in an area with few contests it may seem to be out of reach to compete for TOY but the 10 contests counting should at least give a team a chance to try their hand.If the bonus deal was shortened up it would help a lot of in the areas where the big contests are not at.Not knowing the history well but has Wisconsin ever had even a 50 team contest?I find 49 last year at Menomonee Falls but havent seen a 50?Maybe the Dells in May 2010? My thoughts are that the present TOY system makes it a big deal to win and gets some excitement on a national level to change it would take the prestige out of it.I think if you were to change much it would be hard to get the image of a true national champion if thats what is the intent of the TOY race.As has been stated by several there are many regional and state organizations who have their own state and regional TOY deals.

Plowboy
10-20-2009, 09:11 PM
Current TOY TOP 10


Pellet Envy
IOWA'S SMOKEY D'S
MUNCHIN HOGS@THE HILTON
4 Legs Up BBQ
I Smell Smoke
Butcher BBQ
QUAU
Smoke on Wheels
Florida Skin & Bones
Lotta Bull BBQ

As you can see, the top 10 teams don't change. There is no advantage to lower placing teams to limit the bonus points. Instead, two ties are created and one is a tie for Team of the Year. Reducing bonus points sounded like a good idea. I was for it. But ties, for no real good reason, are not good.

Top 10 with 50 Bonus Point Cap


2778 Pellet Envy
2778 IOWA'S SMOKEY D'S
2765 4 Legs Up BBQ
2721 MUNCHIN HOGS@THE HILTON
2721 Butcher BBQ
2703 QUAU
2663 I Smell Smoke
2662 Lotta Bull BBQ
2652 Smoke on Wheels
2635 Florida Skin & Bones

MilitantSquatter
10-20-2009, 09:59 PM
Thanks Todd.. Makes sense.

But wasn't it just a coincidence that two ties were now generated in the top 10 ? Couldn't this have occured with the existing point allocation just as easily ?

musicmanryann
10-20-2009, 10:14 PM
Thanks Todd.. Makes sense.

But wasn't it just a coincidence that two ties were now generated in the top 10 ? Couldn't this have occured with the existing point allocation just as easily ?

I don't think so, just because there are many more competitions that are have a field of 50-100 than a field of +100.

MilitantSquatter
10-20-2009, 10:23 PM
I don't think so, just because there are many more competitions that are have a field of 50-100 than a field of +100.


I understand what your saying, and while the point gap gets narrowed from 1st to 10th by about 3%, I still think it's a bit random that there were two ties.. The teams with ties noted above could have just as easily scored a few places higher or lower or cooked in a contest with a different team count and then no ties would have existed. There is still a spread between some of the others..

I can be totally wrong.. it's late and I'm too tired to think about statistics.

Squeeze
10-20-2009, 10:25 PM
Current TOY TOP 10


Pellet Envy
IOWA'S SMOKEY D'S
MUNCHIN HOGS@THE HILTON
4 Legs Up BBQ
I Smell Smoke
Butcher BBQ
QUAU
Smoke on Wheels
Florida Skin & Bones
Lotta Bull BBQ

As you can see, the top 10 teams don't change. There is no advantage to lower placing teams to limit the bonus points. Instead, two ties are created and one is a tie for Team of the Year. Reducing bonus points sounded like a good idea. I was for it. But ties, for no real good reason, are not good.

Top 10 with 50 Bonus Point Cap


2778 Pellet Envy
2778 IOWA'S SMOKEY D'S
2765 4 Legs Up BBQ
2721 MUNCHIN HOGS@THE HILTON
2721 Butcher BBQ
2703 QUAU
2663 I Smell Smoke
2662 Lotta Bull BBQ
2652 Smoke on Wheels
2635 Florida Skin & Bones


Do that same math for last years TOY and I bet you will see different results....

Plowboy
10-20-2009, 10:37 PM
Do that same math for last years TOY and I bet you will see different results....

Sorry, I'm missing your point. The top 10 teams change from year to year, that is true. Are you saying that teams not in the top 10 would have replaced other teams if the bonus points would have been capped to 50?

Plowboy
10-20-2009, 10:39 PM
Thanks Todd.. Makes sense.

But wasn't it just a coincidence that two ties were now generated in the top 10 ? Couldn't this have occured with the existing point allocation just as easily ?

I don't think so. By allowing more bonus points, you increase the potential spread. It isn't so much about the 100 point contests, it is more about the 55, 63, 69, 77 team contests that make the difference.

Alexa RnQ
10-21-2009, 05:50 AM
So for the sake of tidy statistics, we'll toss out the population of teams that doesn't have access to those kind of contests?

Squeeze
10-21-2009, 07:13 AM
Sorry, I'm missing your point. The top 10 teams change from year to year, that is true. Are you saying that teams not in the top 10 would have replaced other teams if the bonus points would have been capped to 50?

No, what I am saying is the winner would have been different. The way it was last year, if my team won 9 50 team contests then the Royal Open, we still would have not won Team of the Year due to the bonus points. I think it would be hard pressed to say that any team that did that should be team of the year. BTW, congrats on your big Royal win, very nice!

stlgreg
10-21-2009, 10:27 AM
I'm sure some folks would want to argue CBJ percentages, and the fear that a 'rogue judge' or two could potentially impact TOY standings.

On the other hand, I like the idea a lot. A score is a score regardless of who shows up.

YankeeBBQ for President!

There are also scoring discripencies from region to region. I was talking to Slap Your Daddy in Murphsyboro, Ill this year. They said in California if you receive 600-610 points you are GC. In the midwest it can take 670. I was at hannibal, mo this year and the GC got 638. Something like 8 teams where above 610. I dont think using points would work.

Bentley
10-21-2009, 01:05 PM
We want this to be as fair as possible so that all KCBS cooks have the opportunity to win the title of Team of The Year.

Do you think the current scoring system for TOY allows all members the same opportunity to win TOY? *


Its a nice sentiment and I have to say I appreciate KCBS trying, but teams that can cook 10, 15, 20, 35+ a year will never be in the same catagory as a guy like me that cooks 3-4. Nor should they be, I would hope they are far superior, and out here in the West they are.


I think some way to even things out between the occasional cook and the guys who cook 30+ times would be great, but I'm not sure how to do it. Maybe divisions? I don't know.

Yeah, it will have to be some people that got a lot higher SAT score than me!

Plowboy
10-21-2009, 01:12 PM
So for the sake of tidy statistics, we'll toss out the population of teams that doesn't have access to those kind of contests?

The point is, that dropping bonus points to 50 from 100 doesn't have an affect on who gets into the top 10. That by itself, is not enough to affect TOY the way people want it to. Reducing the points cap from 100 to 50 eliminates zero problems and has a good potential for creating others.

I'm not advocating, I'm just trying to be factual and bring some analysis to this discussion. Until you run the numbers, it is all conjectural.

Plowboy
10-21-2009, 01:13 PM
No, what I am saying is the winner would have been different. The way it was last year, if my team won 9 50 team contests then the Royal Open, we still would have not won Team of the Year due to the bonus points. I think it would be hard pressed to say that any team that did that should be team of the year. BTW, congrats on your big Royal win, very nice!

I gotcha. Thanks. Maybe we need a coaches poll along side points. (That's a BCS flavored joke.)

ThomEmery
10-21-2009, 04:31 PM
But the Coaches dont really watch all the contests