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Brew-B-Q
10-18-2009, 08:29 AM
So I received my first ever 3, in taste, for chicken that ended up 3rd out of 41 teams. Here are my scores:
978
889
937
889
989
987

I'm just confused as to how one piece was perceived to be so much worse than the rest. No comment card either, so I'm at a loss for what that person thought. Part of me thinks it was possibly an 8 being read wrong, but who knows.

Smokin' Joe
10-18-2009, 08:42 AM
Sure looks like a mistake to me Pat, Libertyville had our most erratic scores of the year from judge to judge but nothing like that...I would have thought if it was a real 3 you would have gotten a comment card?

I got my first 6 of the year in appearance in pork along with 4 nines and an 8 if it makes you feel better:cry::-D

Ron_L
10-18-2009, 09:11 AM
We had some unusual scores as well including a 4 in one category. that kind of thing bothers me more than seeing consistent low scores. How can one judge think your chicken was almost inedible while the others thought it was well above average? That just doesn't make sense.

one2bbq
10-18-2009, 09:22 AM
Are scores were all over the place too. Lots of 9's followed by lots of 5's.

Bbq Bubba
10-18-2009, 09:24 AM
You guys all hit the same table??? :roll:

comfrank
10-18-2009, 09:37 AM
Hey, I got a similar thing at a National BBQ Festival comp. They judge appearance, taste, and tenderness, but use a scale from 6 to 10, 6 being lowest, 10 highest. For pork tenderness I got a coupla 10s, but also a 6. That's like getting a 9 from one judge and a 10 from another at a KCBS contest.

--frank in Wilson, NY

comfrank
10-18-2009, 09:40 AM
That's like getting a 9 from one judge and a 10 from another at a KCBS contest.


Whoops! I meant like getting a 9 from one judge and a *2* from another.

Gotta preview the farking posts before hitting "submit".

--frank in Wilson, NY

Roo-B-Q'N
10-18-2009, 10:18 AM
I would have taken that to the rep and asked them to double check. That does seem to be odd.

Rich Parker
10-18-2009, 10:35 AM
So I received my first ever 3, in taste, for chicken that ended up 3rd out of 41 teams. Here are my scores:
978
889
937
889
989
987

I'm just confused as to how one piece was perceived to be so much worse than the rest. No comment card either, so I'm at a loss for what that person thought. Part of me thinks it was possibly an 8 being read wrong, but who knows.

What is the description of a 3, I can't remember? I thought 4 was bad, so I am thinking 3 is inedible.

At my first comp judging, I scored a piece of creosote nasty piece of chicken a 4 and a severely undercooked send me to the ER rib bone a 4.

They must have read the scores wrong to get a 3. I hope I never have to taste a 3. :biggrin:

Coz
10-18-2009, 10:37 AM
What is the description of a 3, I can't remember? I thought 4 was bad, so I am thinking 3 is inedible.

At my first comp judging, I scored a piece of creosote nasty piece of chicken a 4 and a severely undercooked send me to the ER rib bone a 4.

They must have read the scores wrong to get a 3. I hope I never have to taste a 3. :biggrin:


4 is Poor and 3 is bad

Buster Dog BBQ
10-18-2009, 10:59 AM
Would be nice that anything under a 5 required a comment card from the judge or confirmation with the table captain. I got a 3 in brisket a couple years ago and took it to the rep. She said she wouldn't serve brisket rated a 3 to her dog and then walked off. I now don't attend contest that rep does because
of continued scoring issues.

MilitantSquatter
10-18-2009, 11:31 AM
I had the same thought as you... possibly an 8 that got transcribed as a 3 in error.

Brew-B-Q
10-18-2009, 11:39 AM
Would be nice that anything under a 5 required a comment card from the judge or confirmation with the table captain. I got a 3 in brisket a couple years ago and took it to the rep. She said she wouldn't serve brisket rated a 3 to her dog and then walked off. I now don't attend contest that rep does because
of continued scoring issues.

I agree, I'd like to know why it was bad. If it was a typo, that brings up another point. Maybe 3 and 4 should be written out three and four, so there's no confusion about 3/8 4/9.

ModelMaker
10-18-2009, 11:41 AM
I think KCBS keeps the cards for a period of time. I would call the office Monday and request a copy of the scorecards for that table.
ModelMaker

Also, a lone 3 like that should have been followed up with the judge by the table captain.

Jeff_in_KC
10-18-2009, 12:31 PM
Definitely should have been followed up on by the table captain if in fact it was a 3. Maybe it was and the table captain was satisfied with the explanation but I think as a table captain (and I've never done it yet), I would want the judge to fill out a comment card (as long as we have them) to avoid you having to wonder about it.

chibi
10-18-2009, 01:49 PM
1 contest I did this summer I got a 2 in chicken. All others were 8s &9s. went to the rep and said it was raw. So could be that one piece was not good. comment cards would be good

Scottie
10-18-2009, 02:23 PM
My scores were all over the place as well. I've never turned in a box that has deserved a 5. Not being arrogant either. Oh well. I had bags of food the judges cause they did so good. None stopped by though....

Congrats to Ryan. Don't want to tarnish his win.

Westexbbq
10-18-2009, 03:06 PM
I had the same thought as you... possibly an 8 that got transcribed as a 3 in error.

My thoughts exactly as well as I was scrolling thru the posts.
That really makes sense when you look at all the other numbers...

QueTPiesBBQ
10-18-2009, 03:58 PM
dang, it sounds like it was probably recorded wrong. I wonder if KCBS could put numbers on the score cards and the judges could circle the one that they wanted and maybe that would take the possible chance of error out of the equation. Or mabe a bubble sheet like they use on college entrance exams.

SaucyWench
10-18-2009, 04:40 PM
Definitely should have been followed up on by the table captain if in fact it was a 3. Maybe it was and the table captain was satisfied with the explanation but I think as a table captain (and I've never done it yet), I would want the judge to fill out a comment card (as long as we have them) to avoid you having to wonder about it.

The table captain has no authority. When we act as table captains, we are there to assist the judges in following KCBS rules, ensuring that each judge writes the proper team number in the right place on the judging slip and plate, places the sample in the correct spot on their judging plate, circles the proper category on their judging slip, and that they have the correct table number.

It is not the table captain's job to ask for an explanation of the judge's scoring. That is the rep's responsibility, and since comment cards are voluntary, even a rep cannot require a judge to fill one out (though they can ask the judge, if that judge deigns to hang around after judging, WTF?)

tonto1117
10-18-2009, 08:43 PM
We saw some weird scoring from a couple of judges - 7s, 8s, 9s and then a 5 or 6. In our case, not so good a cook, we probably deserved them.....but a 3 needs some 'splaining!!!

"Any given day, any given table"

CivilWarBBQ
10-18-2009, 08:45 PM
The table captain has no authority. When we act as table captains, we are there to assist the judges in following KCBS rules, ensuring that each judge writes the proper team number in the right place on the judging slip and plate, places the sample in the correct spot on their judging plate, circles the proper category on their judging slip, and that they have the correct table number.

It is not the table captain's job to ask for an explanation of the judge's scoring. That is the rep's responsibility, and since comment cards are voluntary, even a rep cannot require a judge to fill one out (though they can ask the judge, if that judge deigns to hang around after judging, WTF?)


That is true, but as TC part of your job is to make sure the cards are legible. If a judge turns in an ambiguous scrawl that could be either a "3" or an "8", it's our job as TC to confirm with the judge the intended score and make sure that score is recorded correctly with the Rep.

It's the Rep's job to double-check the results off the computer against the score cards when they see an odd score like Brew-B-Q received to rule out a possible data entry error.

It does seem like this was a case where a mistake was made, although we once received an intentional 3 in a field of 8s and 9s. The category was Anything But and the judge "hated salmon". Obviously he should have excused himself from the table, but instead he gave us the 3 that cost us first place. It sucks, but it happens.

I feel your pain.

Just Smokin' Around
10-18-2009, 09:23 PM
I would guess an 8 may have been read incorrectlyas a 3. If the number was confusing in anyway, the table captain can ask the judge to make sure it it is clear. In any case, unless there was a tie, the judges score was thrown out as the low score. I'm not sure it being an 8, making it a 987, would have made it count over the 978. Still, difficult to understand.

Stoke&Smoke
10-19-2009, 05:32 PM
There was some weird stuff going on for sure. We had no problems, our scores were fairly normal. But our next door neighbor had something like an 8 6 1 score on one of his meats, can't recall if it was pork or ribs.

I didn't think that was possible to get a 1 from a single judge, unless maybe it was raw meat or something:shock:

Just Smokin' Around
10-19-2009, 08:24 PM
There was some weird stuff going on for sure. We had no problems, our scores were fairly normal. But our next door neighbor had something like an 8 6 1 score on one of his meats, can't recall if it was pork or ribs.

I didn't think that was possible to get a 1 from a single judge, unless maybe it was raw meat or something:shock:
A 1 is a DQ and can only be allowed by the KCBS Rep. Even if the meat is raw, it can only be a 2 (inedible), not a 1. If the judge did not get a sample because pieces were stuck together or there were not enough, then a judge would see a 111, but not a score in taste and a 1 in tenderness.

Stoke&Smoke
10-20-2009, 08:49 AM
That was what I thought as well. I told him to write KCBS on Monday to see if he could get an explanation.

dmprantz
10-20-2009, 09:05 AM
1 contest I did this summer I got a 2 in chicken. All others were 8s &9s. went to the rep and said it was raw. So could be that one piece was not good. comment cards would be good

Some one official (It may have been Merl) said recently that if a turn in receives a DQ or a 2 that the rep should verify and inform the team. He said that even for a 2, the rep will take the napkin used to perform the napkin test to the team to show them and prove that it was raw.

Obviously this was a 3 and not a 2, but I would think that with the disparity the rep would have been involved some how. Personally, I think the software should detect these kinds of potential errors.

dmp

Brew-B-Q
10-20-2009, 12:57 PM
I requested a copy of the judge slip, and I'm told I'll get it in a few days. Sure if it was an 8 I would have moved up to 2nd place in chicken and gotten some extra $$, but that's not the point. I just would like to know if someone truly hated it that much. I still think that writing out three or four would eliminate any concerns about typos.

musicmanryann
10-20-2009, 01:42 PM
I requested a copy of the judge slip, and I'm told I'll get it in a few days. Sure if it was an 8 I would have moved up to 2nd place in chicken and gotten some extra $$, but that's not the point. I just would like to know if someone truly hated it that much. I still think that writing out three or four would eliminate any concerns about typos.

Or having them circle a number as well. I remember there was a thread about a similar issue earlier this season at a comp in MO.

I have a statistical model which all my scores in to so I can track how I do on all three criteria, on all four categories as well as overall. I looked at the score sheet from Libertyville for about three minutes and thats all it took for me to decide that one would not get inputted. The scores were so erratic it was easy to see that it was an outlier. Straight 9's from a couple of judges, then 7's and 6's from a couple of others (even a coupla 5's). I am still relatively new to this, but I haven't seen anything like it by a long shot.

Podge
10-20-2009, 01:47 PM
I do not understand the justification of a 3 in taste with a 7 in tenderness. In my experience, taste is not too far off from tenderness. I bet it was meant to be an 8.

Divemaster
10-21-2009, 10:13 AM
I agree that it's more than likely an 8.

I also agree that my scores at Libertyville were not what I expected (except for the brisket LOL)...

Bentley
10-21-2009, 10:22 AM
I did not read all the other posts, someone probably already said this...Did you ask the reps if that could have been an 8? I would have wanted to see the score card.

stlgreg
10-21-2009, 11:24 AM
I requested a copy of the judge slip, and I'm told I'll get it in a few days. Sure if it was an 8 I would have moved up to 2nd place in chicken and gotten some extra $$, but that's not the point. I just would like to know if someone truly hated it that much. I still think that writing out three or four would eliminate any concerns about typos.

I dont know the difference between where you finished and where 2nd place was but after doing the math your score would have only imporved by 1.143. I highlighted the dropped score and the score that would have been dropped.

978 30.2856
889 33.1428
937 19.9996
889 33.1428
989 33.7142
987 31.4286

978 30.2856
889 33.1428
987 31.4286
889 33.1428
989 33.7142
987 31.4286

Brew-B-Q
10-21-2009, 12:09 PM
Well I don't know for sure how it works, but I thought going from dropping a 3 (counting a 7) to dropping a 7 (counting an 8 ) in taste would give me 2+ points.

Do you drop the lowest total score, or the lowest score in each category, appearance, taste, and tenderness? I always thought, perhaps incorrectly, that it was the lowest score in each category, not the sum of the lowest scoring judge.

musicmanryann
10-21-2009, 12:10 PM
Well I don't know for sure how it works, but I thought going from dropping a 3 (counting a 7) to dropping a 7 (counting an 8 ) in taste would give me 2+ points.

Do you drop the lowest total score, or the lowest score in each category, appearance, taste, and tenderness? I always thought, perhaps incorrectly, that it was the lowest score in each category, not the sum of the lowest scoring judge.

It is the lowest judges' score, not each category.

The Virginian
10-21-2009, 12:34 PM
Last year we took third in brisket and had a 929 for one of our score. I asked the rep to look into it, actually just hoping that there was a comment card. It was a keying error, should have been an 8, and we were quietly awarded 1st place after the fact, plus the additional $$. If award $$ is at stake, might be worth asking.

Brett

Podge
10-21-2009, 12:48 PM
Last year we took third in brisket and had a 929 for one of our score. I asked the rep to look into it, actually just hoping that there was a comment card. It was a keying error, should have been an 8, and we were quietly awarded 1st place after the fact, plus the additional $$. If award $$ is at stake, might be worth asking.

Brett

Now That is scary !!!!:icon_sick ..

dmprantz
10-21-2009, 12:55 PM
Earlier this year I was awarded third in ribs. Right after awards it was loudly announced that presenter misread and I should have been fourth, but I would get to keep the $$$ even though I offerred to return it. I asked to make sure I understood how I came in fourth, and as it turned out, the announcer was right all along and I got third. They never loudly announced that I was that good, but at least I got my check and the knowledge.

dmp

Brew-B-Q
10-21-2009, 01:22 PM
Well, I got a copy of the score and it was a friggin 3, no doubt about it.

Podge
10-21-2009, 01:33 PM
Earlier this year I was awarded third in ribs. Right after awards it was loudly announced that presenter misread and I should have been fourth, but I would get to keep the $$$ even though I offerred to return it. I asked to make sure I understood how I came in fourth, and as it turned out, the announcer was right all along and I got third. They never loudly announced that I was that good, but at least I got my check and the knowledge.

dmp

I think i have one that tops that story !!:icon_blush:.. Last year, at The Jack, while calling the top 10 in sauce, they announced 10th place as "Last year's grand champion....".. so, him having said that, my brother and i jumped up with excitement !! (who wouldn't ??).. my brother made the sauce from the ground up, and i was really happy he got that call for us. we ran up there, got the check, ribbon, pictures, etc.. then come to find out, they announcer was wrong.. I felt horrible for my brother, and for the team that should have to do that walk, pics, etc.. what a friggin' train wreck !!!! :icon_pissed:icon_pissed.. i'm sitting here getting pissed again just thinking about it !!!

dmprantz
10-21-2009, 02:17 PM
I think i have one that tops that story !!

As some one who's been there, I'm sorry to hear that. It really does suck to get so elated and then deflated. Sorry for you, your brother, and the other team, but at least you won GC at the Jack!

dmp