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MilitantSquatter
10-13-2009, 10:15 PM
Had an interesting discussion recently regarding the naming of attendees of those who took a comp BBQ class and saw success afterward (ex GC/RGC, high placings in categories).

For the instructors, aside from being paid for sharing their time and wealth of knowledge and experience, there could be some degree of future gain if others see students succeeding who took their class, attribute the success to the class and now want to attend as well.

On the flip side, some students may not wish that their attendance be made public. Maybe the class was not a direct impact on their results as what they did to win was not a replica of the instructors recipes, processes etc. or they just don't want it known.

It's also only fair that students who take the class will not share the class recipes/techniques or materials with others..but that apparently happens.

Question : Should the class instructor(s) ask on class application forms if the paying student is willing to have their name noted as a class graduate if they succeed at future events (on their website, or acknowledging their success on forums contest result postings etc) or should it be up to the student to proactively request that the instructor refrain from noting their attendance before participating ?

(Please note - this is for general discussion only - not aimed at any specific classes or students)

Discuss.. :biggrin:

ThomEmery
10-13-2009, 10:21 PM
Good question Yes they should ask in a release just like a contest

Dustaway
10-13-2009, 10:26 PM
Good question Yes they should ask in a release just like a contest

ditto

bbqbull
10-13-2009, 10:35 PM
Good question Yes they should ask in a release just like a contest

Ive not done a sanctioned contest in a few years here, confused about the release Thom?

Alexa RnQ
10-13-2009, 11:29 PM
Who knows, at the time a class is taken, what might transpire months in the future?
Perhaps the easiest thing would be that if a student performs admirably, the teacher can then ask if they'd be willing to promote the class.

It should go in the other direction, too. The only class we've taken has been that given by Brent and Kim Walton of QN4U, and we have always been happy to give them credit.

And absolutely, when proprietary information is disclosed for a fee, a request for non-disclosure of that information to those outside the class should be honored.

Plowboy
10-13-2009, 11:31 PM
I always ask a team if I can mention their name in association with the use of my products. I've secretly delivered product to team trailers at contests. I'll never mention names unless I've cleared it with that team, even with my closest friends.

Crash
10-14-2009, 04:57 AM
I 100% agree with DivaHerself on this topic.

I also think that if you take a class for BBQ instruction, you shouldnt share that info. It not only hurts your chances for success against other teams, but it also undermines what the teacher has taught you to shorten your learning curve. Additionally, it keeps other teams from enrolling in the teacher's class. Not fair to both student or instructor in my opinion.

I dont see the harm if students are OK with it being known that they took a particular class. If instructors want to capitalize on how their students have done, I see no issue with that either. As Thom suggested, it might be a good idea to have a clause written into the class registration form that will allow students to choose if they are willing to have their names announced as taking a particular class.

Just my thoughts.

bbqdavarrow
10-14-2009, 06:19 AM
I have taken 3 classes and being in the situation of being a winner, I don't mind anyone saying "he was a student of ours"
I don't make any recipe given to me from any of the classes the exact way they said to make something. What fun would that be.
And yes I think they should ask the students when taking the class if they want to be associated with taking the class.
dave
red planet bbq

Ford
10-14-2009, 07:09 AM
Had an interesting discussion recently regarding the naming of attendees of those who took a comp BBQ class and saw success afterward (ex GC/RGC, high placings in categories).


It's also only fair that students who take the class will not share the class recipes/techniques or materials with others..but that apparently happens.

I think it's up to the student to give credit to the class if it helped. I've done that with a couple of classes. I don't think the instructor should claim credit unless they can prove it was their teaching that made the difference.

As far as not sharing recipes/techniques well that's difficult to determine. I use a very similar technique to Mike Davis and Johnny Trigg for my chicken but it's modified to my cooker and my cooking style. Recipes are my own. So if I do something similar to 2 teachers is it their technique or mine? And I know there are hundreds of cooks out there that are uusing a similar technique. The top teachers will tell you that their method works for them using their cooker and you will need to take what you learn and develop your own method.

Podge
10-14-2009, 07:18 AM
It's been pretty well-known that I took Rod and Johnny's class. And I think Johnny still mentions it in classes that I took the class and won the jack. (your results may vary..lol).. They didn't get permission from me to say that I took the class, but I don't care really. I consider them freinds, and I do what I can to help freinds. If saying that helps them make more money, more power to them.

I got some good ideas from that class, and got my mind out of some paradigms I've been stuck in, and came up with ways to think out of the box. I believe if a person wants to win BBQ contests, and if classes are offered, they need to take them, and practice a lot. If you want to win bad enough, you take advantage of things offered to you.. If there is a class close by, don't think for a minute I wouldn't consider it.

SmokinOkie
10-14-2009, 07:49 AM
Well, I took three classes and haven't done crap with it, so they don't quote me... oh wait, did I say I took a class?

I think the classes should identify in the class whether they will or won't share. You're exactly right, I've known several people who take a class that don't want it known.

One thing I do find unacceptable, is a note for note repetition of the rubs or techniques someone learned in a class then they "share" it as their method. It's really disingenious to the class leader and I know several who teach a class that have that very issue, but they can't really publicize there problem.

Smokin'

Balls Casten
10-14-2009, 07:51 AM
I think the question is legally do they need permission from you.

What if … you take the class. Don’t like it, didn’t get what you were promised, teachings were bad and you ultimately take nothing from the class.
You later have success in contests and they start using your name. Most of us do not have our team names trade marked. And the facts are that you did take the class.

I think most of us would be glad to help someone that helped you. But what if they didn’t help?

ThomEmery
10-14-2009, 07:55 AM
Ive not done a sanctioned contest in a few years here, confused about the release Thom?
We have a release on entry forms for the use of your image, liability, etc.

Plowboy
10-14-2009, 09:52 AM
It's been pretty well-known that I took Rod and Johnny's class. And I think Johnny still mentions it in classes that I took the class and won the jack. (your results may vary..lol).. They didn't get permission from me to say that I took the class, but I don't care really. I consider them freinds, and I do what I can to help freinds. If saying that helps them make more money, more power to them.

I got some good ideas from that class, and got my mind out of some paradigms I've been stuck in, and came up with ways to think out of the box. I believe if a person wants to win BBQ contests, and if classes are offered, they need to take them, and practice a lot. If you want to win bad enough, you take advantage of things offered to you.. If there is a class close by, don't think for a minute I wouldn't consider it.


That's the key, Podge. Classes won't necessarily make you an instant winner. It is what you learn from that and then make your own that has real staying power. Our first big class like this was the very first Lotta Bull class in Lynchburg. As you said, it broke a lot of paradigms for us that we'd been stuck in and didn't think to question. I can't say that we use any recipes or much in the way of presentations, but it was a huge shift from about second gear into third. I then took Rod's first class before Johnny was on board. That was a shift from third to fourth. Fourth to overdrive is what I've added from there.

Divemaster
10-14-2009, 10:55 AM
I think it's up to the student to give credit to the class if it helped. I've done that with a couple of classes. I don't think the instructor should claim credit unless they can prove it was their teaching that made the difference.

As far as not sharing recipes/techniques well that's difficult to determine. I use a very similar technique to Mike Davis and Johnny Trigg for my chicken but it's modified to my cooker and my cooking style. Recipes are my own. So if I do something similar to 2 teachers is it their technique or mine? And I know there are hundreds of cooks out there that are using a similar technique. The top teachers will tell you that their method works for them using their cooker and you will need to take what you learn and develop your own method.

I hate to do it but I agree with Ford. I too have taken a class with Rod and Johnny and it did help. But since my primary cooker is a Lang there are things that I had to change in my techniques because it just didn't work the way it was taught... I have also changed the recipes that I received from them and IMHO have made them my own (I would say that each one is about 1/2 mine and 1/2 theirs)...

To me, the class was more of a smack on the back of my head to wake me up to trying something different than doing it the same way that they did...

I guess what I'm saying is that I wouldn't have a problem with them saying I took the class but they would need to acknowledge that I'm not doing it 'exactly' as they taught it...

Coz
10-14-2009, 04:39 PM
While I have not taken any of the competition classes yet I did take a couple back yard classes and have felt that some of our success came from there and have offered up thanks when we do well and have always thought that the person who did those classes should teach a basic comp class.I also feel that instructors should ask about the referencing students in ads though I wouldnt have an issue in with it.

Rich Parker
10-14-2009, 06:51 PM
It be like Harvard saying "Bill Gates took classes here". Who cares, it is the reputation of the school that matters and good reputation comes from years of success.

It isn't what you learn in class as much as it is how you apply what you have learned.

Jorge
10-14-2009, 07:25 PM
It's been pretty well-known that I took Rod and Johnny's class. And I think Johnny still mentions it in classes that I took the class and won the jack. (your results may vary..lol).. They didn't get permission from me to say that I took the class, but I don't care really. I consider them freinds, and I do what I can to help freinds. If saying that helps them make more money, more power to them.

I got some good ideas from that class, and got my mind out of some paradigms I've been stuck in, and came up with ways to think out of the box. I believe if a person wants to win BBQ contests, and if classes are offered, they need to take them, and practice a lot. If you want to win bad enough, you take advantage of things offered to you.. If there is a class close by, don't think for a minute I wouldn't consider it.

Ditto! Except for winning the Jack and stuff like that:lol: Rod and Johnny were very open about what they do. Like you, I went home and started thinking about what I do/did. I did pick up some new ingredients to play with in a new way, but more importantly I started thinking about developing a new process.

It was worth every penny. Cooking became a lot more fun, because I wasn't stuck in the same old 'rut'.

Sledneck
10-14-2009, 07:28 PM
I dont mind but think that I should be asked first......

ThomEmery
10-14-2009, 07:53 PM
I dont mind but think that I should be asked first......


Kinda like a prom date :)

Alexa RnQ
10-14-2009, 08:50 PM
And really, how much anonymity is there in practice? It's not Spy vs. Spy. People saw you at the class, people talk. If your performance suddenly improves, people know what happened, and pretending you didn't take a high-level class is both disingenuous and slightly amusing.

So I think the issue isn't so much anonymity, as giving credit if you think it's due.

ThomEmery
10-14-2009, 09:36 PM
Wear dark glasses and a fake mustache

Vince RnQ
10-14-2009, 11:35 PM
As mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very proud to acknowledge Brent and Kim Walton of QN4U as our teachers and mentors. I can honestly say that we would not have achieved our current level of success had it not been for their instruction, guidance and support.

Plowboy
10-15-2009, 12:18 AM
As mentioned earlier in the thread, we are very proud to acknowledge Brent and Kim Walton of QN4U as our teachers and mentors. I can honestly say that we would not have achieved our current level of success had it not been for their instruction, guidance and support.

I'll be happy to have you "pay it forward" when I see you in Arizona next month. :mrgreen: I'll bring something to write notes on.

Alexa RnQ
10-15-2009, 12:24 AM
...and you're saving me tastes of everything for that 1:35pm meeting you proposed, right? http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

Sawdustguy
10-15-2009, 10:55 AM
We took a couple of classes, won a RGC, placed first in a few catagories and had a few top 10 finishes. We could care less if they mention us or not. We do this for fun and are a touch less serious than most.

ModelMaker
10-15-2009, 12:21 PM
And really, how much anonymity is there in practice? It's not Spy vs. Spy. People saw you at the class, people talk. If your performance suddenly improves, people know what happened, and pretending you didn't take a high-level class is both disingenuous and slightly amusing.

So I think the issue isn't so much anonymity, as giving credit if you think it's due.



Wow, I'm almost 56 years old and it just occured to me I have never written or typed the word "disingenuous".
Thanks, Ed
ModelMaker

musicmanryann
10-15-2009, 01:02 PM
And really, how much anonymity is there in practice? It's not Spy vs. Spy. People saw you at the class, people talk. If your performance suddenly improves, people know what happened, and pretending you didn't take a high-level class is both disingenuous and slightly amusing.

So I think the issue isn't so much anonymity, as giving credit if you think it's due.


This is what I have been thinking about this discussion as well. There were 30 other students at the Johnny and Rod class I attended. Several of them I have seen at many of the competitions we have attended this year. If there is any point to hiding it, which I don't believe there is, it probably wouldn't work too well.

Scottie
10-15-2009, 01:17 PM
This is what I have been thinking about this discussion as well. There were 30 other students at the Johnny and Rod class I attended. Several of them I have seen at many of the competitions we have attended this year. If there is any point to hiding it, which I don't believe there is, it probably wouldn't work too well.


Having been watching the effect of classes. Just watch the score sheets. You will soon figure out who has gone to a class. Especially those teams that were never in the top 10 and now are getting calls. We start pools to see who will guess correctly!!! 8-)

Brew-B-Q
10-15-2009, 01:24 PM
I guess I'm naive, stubborn, or both. I had no idea so many people were taking these classes.

Jacked UP BBQ
10-15-2009, 01:31 PM
You shouldn't take a class to steal or copy exact. Classes are for learning curves. I too Ique's class and took a few things from it that put us over the edge. He convinced me that my thoughts were true and we needed to act on them (without sharing). We adjusted a couple things on one meat and we have been doing a lot better with it. If you go out and use exactly what you are shown, are YOU really winning? I do think they should be able to list you as students without permission.

musicmanryann
10-15-2009, 01:35 PM
I guess I'm naive, stubborn, or both. I had no idea so many people were taking these classes.


Rod and Johnny taught their 500th student in Virginia earlier this summer.

Scottie
10-15-2009, 01:43 PM
I guess I'm naive, stubborn, or both. I had no idea so many people were taking these classes.


Yeah.... No one had you in the pool.... :twisted:

See you tomorrow.

Brew-B-Q
10-15-2009, 02:01 PM
Yeah.... No one had you in the pool.... :twisted:

See you tomorrow.

I just hope we score the best of teams within 15 miles of Libertyville. There should definitely be an award for that.

ique
10-15-2009, 02:12 PM
You shouldn't take a class to steal or copy exact. Classes are for learning curves. I too Ique's class and took a few things from it that put us over the edge. He convinced me that my thoughts were true and we needed to act on them (without sharing). We adjusted a couple things on one meat and we have been doing a lot better with it. If you go out and use exactly what you are shown, are YOU really winning? I do think they should be able to list you as students without permission.

I'm glad you took a few good things from the class. I guess the main reason I haven't publicly mentioned teams that took my class and have subsequently done well is I have no idea if they used stuff from my program to win.

Scottie
10-15-2009, 02:32 PM
I just hope we score the best of teams within 15 miles of Libertyville. There should definitely be an award for that.


Smokey Joel lives within that range... side bet!

Brew-B-Q
10-15-2009, 04:43 PM
I love side bets. One of these days I'll win some money from them.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Having been watching the effect of classes. Just watch the score sheets. You will soon figure out who has gone to a class. Especially those teams that were never in the top 10 and now are getting calls. We start pools to see who will guess correctly!!! 8-)

not to argue (sp) but...do you really need more then some solid research here on the Brethren forum to move up in the standings? I would love to take a class, just none near me. Good friends with pointers also help out alot. I just belive there is a lot of great info here and it may be just as helpfull.

Sal

MilitantSquatter
10-15-2009, 11:28 PM
You shouldn't take a class to steal or copy exact.

If you go out and use exactly what you are shown, are YOU really winning?

Great discussion so far by all.. That was my intent of the thread.. to create an interesting topic that I really have no vested interest in.

To further it along... let's dig further into these two ponts by Matt (again.. just playing the other side of the fence...topics

1) While I agree you shouldn't take a class to steal or copy exact, I'd venture to say a good portion do just that, at least their first time out, especially after paying several hundred $$ to attend.

2) Sure you are really winning. Many have said here, that it's a competition and they will do what it takes to win. If not, then cook on the leaky Bandera, don't bring foil, and don't use any pre-made commerical rubs and sauces and tubs of butter and see how it fares. So many teams are using the same methods, sauces and rubs,cookers, presentations anyway that in many cases it's really coming down to execution and luck on a given day.

:biggrin:

ThomEmery
10-16-2009, 07:52 AM
Execution and Luck of the tables
Yes that would describe it

monty3777
10-16-2009, 08:18 AM
I took Myron Mixon's class and loved every minute of it. It was such an honor to be able to talk with him without all the BS that can accompany a fairly recognized team on the BBQ circuit. There is a myth that all BBQ folks are wonderful and totally willing to share their ideas. Well, maybe after you get to know them well enough - but the idea of walking up to a top flight BBQ team and getting ideas from them is really not all that practical. Most of those teams hang out with one another and there is definitely some suspicion when you approach them just to chat - or worse - get some ideas (call it shigging). By taking a class you cut through all that crap and get a chance to really learn something about the craft. (let me add that one notable exception is Scottie. I am always amazed that he is willing to share his thoughts so openly on this forum)

As for how useful it is - well, Myron cooks in a way that makes a lot of sense down south, but the injections and sauces just don't cut it in the upper midwest. He came to the pork BBQlossal and didn't even get a call. I have had to rethink and retool my sauces, rubs, and injections to fit the northern palate. Once I did I started getting calls (though not very high calls). However, Myron taught me how to cook and I take great pride in the fact that I learned at the feet of a master. It will be up to me to practice and make those techniques translate into actual skill. Maybe next year.

Finally, I paid for that class. Myron didn't do me some favor. There was never any agreement about not sharing info, so as far as I'm concerned that info belongs to me. I asked Myron about sharing notes and he said, "You do what you want - but why would you give away information you paid for. Make them take their own d@mn class!" I agree with him - but in the end I would feel no guilt if I decided to share some of what I learned.

Scottie
10-16-2009, 10:32 AM
not to argue (sp) but...do you really need more then some solid research here on the Brethren forum to move up in the standings? I would love to take a class, just none near me. Good friends with pointers also help out alot. I just belive there is a lot of great info here and it may be just as helpfull.

Sal


Sal, I think what these classes do, especially Rod and Johnny's class is this analogy... This site can take you from Point A to Point B. That is basically hitting every once and a while... But to take your game to a new level, from Point B to Point C, their class will do that for you without all of the trial and error of seasonings and sauces. I've taken their class and I would almost cringe when they were giving away secrets... Yes, I have cooked with Rod numerous times and will say that what he teaches is how he cooks. I took the class for seeing it done by Johnny. No slight what so ever with Rod and he knows that.

Consistency will win your share of contests once you get your flavors down. That and a big dose of luck... There are only a few guys out there that hit consistently week in and week out year after year...

Scottie
10-16-2009, 10:39 AM
(let me add that one notable exception is Scottie. I am always amazed that he is willing to share his thoughts so openly on this forum)


Thanks for the kind words Nate. I believe in that adage to pay it forward. I've had a lot of guidance from some of the legends of BBQ. I also learned a lot from practicing and trying out techniques that folks from Forums posted and they said it worked. Why do I do it? Why not I guess is a better answer!!! I am a competitor. I want to beat folks at their best. Let's face it. I can give everyone my methods that work for me. It might not work for someone else though. The other thing to remember is... How much BS am I giving ya? :roll:

Coz
10-16-2009, 04:48 PM
Thanks for the kind words Nate. I believe in that adage to pay it forward. I've had a lot of guidance from some of the legends of BBQ. I also learned a lot from practicing and trying out techniques that folks from Forums posted and they said it worked. Why do I do it? Why not I guess is a better answer!!! I am a competitor. I want to beat folks at their best. Let's face it. I can give everyone my methods that work for me. It might not work for someone else though. The other thing to remember is... How much BS am I giving ya? :roll:

To add to this and what Monty said about Myrons flavors not doing well up here.I had some great recipes shared by a guy who has tore it up this year .The stuff was awesome to us but the judges here just didnt seem to care for it. i gave it 2 contests and then went back to what we were doing before,I did learn a few things to carry forward from his advice.Thank you much Todd .A friend took the Rod and Johnny class.He came back and said what he learned was great and that he was experimenting with what he learned there and I asked what do you mean experimenting>His reply was you are not going to beat these guys by doing exactly what they do.He was more of the mind set that he was given the main key and had to refine it to his area and cooking tools.I am going to tak one of the comp classes just not sure which one at this point.

Rich Parker
10-16-2009, 06:30 PM
Where do i sign up for Rod and Johnny's class? :biggrin:

Hopefully they can my take my Q from a D- to D+

Scottie
10-17-2009, 07:28 AM
Shannon, Illinois. Will be the Spring 2010......


Where do i sign up for Rod and Johnny's class? :biggrin:

Hopefully they can my take my Q from a D- to D+

ThomEmery
10-17-2009, 07:39 AM
I may do that one

Podge
10-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Where do i sign up for Rod and Johnny's class? :biggrin:

Hopefully they can my take my Q from a D- to D+

Not to be picking on you, but that's a fair analogy. It can't make a bad cook great, but it can make a good cook better.

Rich Parker
10-17-2009, 09:59 AM
Shannon, Illinois. Will be the Spring 2010......

Do they have a website for more info?

ThomEmery
10-17-2009, 10:12 AM
http://www.pelletenvy.com/classes/

2010 not posted yet

Jeff Hughes
10-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Not to be picking on you, but that's a fair analogy. It can't make a bad cook great, but it can make a good cook better.

No kidding, I know a guy who took almost every class(he did three of the current big boy classes) you could take last winter. He thought he was going to win right out of the gate. He's had some calls this year, but more often than not, he's still middle of the pack...

It seems to me you need to be one of the guys that is probably already somewhat of a threat, for the classes to take you over the top...

Rich Parker
10-17-2009, 10:34 AM
http://www.pelletenvy.com/classes/

2010 not posted yet

Thanks! I don't have much of an urge to compete right now but the class I bet is fun, just wish it was closer.

bbqczar
10-17-2009, 03:52 PM
I am looking to take a Pellet envy class in 2010,too bad they aren't coming to Az. or Ca.,that would be great ! I think we could get alot of students between Az.,Ca.,NM.,and maybe Utah.

ThomEmery
10-17-2009, 04:08 PM
I asked Rod to come to Vegas in early 2010

Sawdustguy
10-17-2009, 08:26 PM
Having been watching the effect of classes. Just watch the score sheets. You will soon figure out who has gone to a class. Especially those teams that were never in the top 10 and now are getting calls. We start pools to see who will guess correctly!!! 8-)

You would have a tuff time figuring us out. We have attended a class, and we still suck!

bbqdavarrow
10-18-2009, 09:39 AM
I'm glad you took a few good things from the class. I guess the main reason I haven't publicly mentioned teams that took my class and have subsequently done well is I have no idea if they used stuff from my program to win.
Any plans to do another class:?:

Sledneck
10-18-2009, 10:16 AM
You would have a tuff time figuring us out. We have attended a class, and we still suck!
You have to actually compete to "still" suck:tongue:

Sawdustguy
10-18-2009, 05:45 PM
You have to actually compete to "still" suck:tongue:

Wise ass....:biggrin: