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View Full Version : Confusion with Appearance Scores (Or I hope you are as dumbfounded as me)


stlgreg
06-28-2009, 09:49 PM
I am hoping someone can really explain this to me. I got my sheets back yesterday and I was completely floored by two of my appearance scores. absolutely floored

stlgreg
06-28-2009, 09:53 PM
Now that you have seen teh pics would you believe this?
Chicken - 959887 - 5?
Ribs - 977478 - 4?

I asked the reps about it. Was the judge talked to? Was there a comment card? Turned out they didnt make comment cards available. I was told that the scores could not be changed. They really didnt understand what I was after.

I dont think either box deserved a 4 or 5 - if you do I am sorry to bother you with this rant - but if you arent talking to the judge then doesnt he/she do it again and again?

(Personally I would have given my chicken a 8 or 9 and my ribs a 7)

BTW, my pork was 878888 and my brisket was 888888 so the problem was not in every category

motley que
06-28-2009, 09:55 PM
Probably one of the non kcbs judges

BBQ Grail
06-28-2009, 09:57 PM
Dang worthless judges... :twisted:

Probably was a picky KCBS Judge...

stlgreg
06-28-2009, 10:01 PM
I have judged a good handfull of contests so far this year. I have been told at each one if you give a score less than 6 fill out a card.

The reps never talked about cards - i was close enough to hear everything the judges were told - we were really crammed in there.

Then when asked about them at the end they said "they could have asked for one" How about guidence?"

stlgreg
06-28-2009, 10:02 PM
i dont know who it was - certified or not.
Brett you were there - how do those compare with what you saw? What would you have given them?

Just Pulin' Pork
06-28-2009, 10:10 PM
I have judged a good handfull of contests so far this year. I have been told at each one if you give a score less than 6 fill out a card.

The reps never talked about cards - i was close enough to hear everything the judges were told - we were really crammed in there.

Then when asked about them at the end they said "they could have asked for one" How about guidence?"


Greg thats what BS about competiton BBQ. The appearence looks good. Not worthy of those lows scores. Thanks for posting this.

The Pickled Pig
06-28-2009, 10:12 PM
I think you got robbed by the outliers on both entries and agree with your own assessment. And although you didn't ask for suggestions for improvement, I'll still offer some.

First, your putting greens are too loose. Try building them so the meat sits on top and doesn't sink in. Think "lift and separate" like a push up bra.

On the chicken, turn each piece 90 degrees. I don't know why, but chicken always does better on appearance when placed horizontally. Also, don't place the parsley on the corners of the center piece.

On the ribs, same thing...turn them 90 degrees so each rib is horizontal and put the extra rib on a side. Again, I don't know why but that seems to result in a higher appearance score.

stlgreg
06-28-2009, 10:14 PM
I think you got robbed by the outliers on both entries and agree with your own assessment. And although you didn't ask for suggestions for improvement, I'll still offer some.

First, your putting greens are too loose. Try building them so the meat sits on top and doesn't sink in. Think "lift and separate" like a push up bra.

On the chicken, turn each piece 90 degrees. I don't know why, but chicken always does better on appearance when placed horizontally. Also, don't place the parsley on the corners of the center piece.

On the ribs, same thing...turn them 90 degrees so each rib is horizontal and put the extra rib on a side. Again, I don't know why but that seems to result in a higher appearance score.

thanks Paul. critque is always welcome

Just Pulin' Pork
06-28-2009, 10:29 PM
Think "lift and separate" like a push up bra

Paul that is the best tip I have ever seen in BBQ! Love it!

Ford
06-29-2009, 05:23 AM
So welcome to judging. That's how it is. You see the same in taste and tendefrness. I just got 589878 for pork tenderness. The judge filled out a card saying they thought it was "overcooked and mushy". Same card said "very good flavor and the bark is particularly flavorful" and gave me a 7 on taste. Seems like a conflict as that description sounds like an 8 to me. But that's judging.

And I notice that you had a 9 on the chicken box and that's just about as out of line as the 5 was based on the other scores.

Muddy River Boy
06-29-2009, 05:50 AM
I often think that (some) not all judges look away when it comes to appearance and then just write down the first number that pops into their heads. This is the only explanation that makes sense with the kind of inconsistent scoring that we get:shock:

It is enough to drive you to drink:-?:-?:-?

Clint

Lion Bout The Q
06-29-2009, 07:10 AM
Greg, Our chicken box must have hit the same table as yours.You have no 5 or 4 there at all, chicken 8, ribs 7.Michele told me late that morning that they had 100 % cbj's.
My chicken appearance ranged from 5 to 9. My last 4 chciken contest places are 8th ,3rd,7th, and pacific.....wait for it....37th..
You could tell the reps were lost just by the awards ceremony alone...sad..
I do think the organizer put on a fun contest though, except for the heat..

QN
06-29-2009, 07:34 AM
I could see each box being scored 7 for appearance, but definitely not 5 or 4. On the other hand, I don't see either of them being a 9.

Yakfishingfool
06-29-2009, 07:43 AM
I agree, not fives or fours, but not nine's. Good advice on the putting green idea. I also think the ribs with the larger gap at the bottom is not very eye catching. Try going four over four next time, and get the grass in there tight. I looked at the meat first then the grass. I think the chicken looks pretty good. I can't tell, so maybe that's good, did you size them equally across rows? Meaning all of the same size in a row? Good luck. Scott

monty3777
06-29-2009, 07:48 AM
You got hosed. Sorry!

Jeff_in_KC
06-29-2009, 08:18 AM
It's called "judge farked". You're no longer a virgin.

tonto1117
06-29-2009, 08:41 AM
Yep, you were robbed Greg.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 08:48 AM
It's called "judge farked". You're no longer a virgin.

So thats why i feel so violated:-D

On the other side of things, my briskset taste scores were 749677. Its weird I can handle the 4 a lot more on taste than on appearance and taste is worth four times as much. I have just seen judging one piece can be so much different than the next one.

I did change the 5 and the 4 into 9s and refigured the scores and no places would have changed. I am not taking much solice in that.

Brewmaster
06-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Greg I feel your pain. It happened to me in Pork tenderness. I got 9,5,9,9,9,7. Now the rest of my scoring in the other categories I must say was the most consistent I have ever received. But I wish I would received a comment card on the 5. I'm curious if the rep even questioned it.

I guess I just deal with the fact that it's not a perfect system and keep pressing on.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 08:54 AM
I agree, not fives or fours, but not nine's. Good advice on the putting green idea. I also think the ribs with the larger gap at the bottom is not very eye catching. Try going four over four next time, and get the grass in there tight. I looked at the meat first then the grass. I think the chicken looks pretty good. I can't tell, so maybe that's good, did you size them equally across rows? Meaning all of the same size in a row? Good luck. Scott

Yes we tried to size them together.

I made a horrible mistake on the way down - its only a 50 minute drive for me. I didnt put the parsley in a cooler. We lost so much that it was hard to fill the boxes. Michelle was nice enough to go to WalMart and buy what they had left and we were still short.

Even dunking it in ice water didnt help.

KC_Bobby
06-29-2009, 08:59 AM
Now that you have seen teh pics would you believe this?
Chicken - 959887 - 5?
Ribs - 977478 - 4?


The chicken is not a 5 and the rib is not a 4 and I agree that they are out of line. However the average of the judges are:
chicken - 7.6666 (8.2 if the 5 was thrown out)
ribs - 7 (7.6 if the 4 was thrown out)

I feel when you average it out like that, the total app points are about right - the ribs may even be a bit high assuming the 4 was dropped. (Only seeing app scores we don't know which one was tossed.)

motley que
06-29-2009, 09:01 AM
i dont know who it was - certified or not.
Brett you were there - how do those compare with what you saw? What would you have given them?

There were on average 3 cbj's per table. I tried to see what the non cbj's were scoring, but it was hard. Probably would have given 8's unless I knew it was yours, then 2's and 3's

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 09:01 AM
Greg I feel your pain. It happened to me in Pork tenderness. I got 9,5,9,9,9,7. Now the rest of my scoring in the other categories I must say was the most consistent I have ever received. But I wish I would received a comment card on the 5. I'm curious if the rep even questioned it.

I guess I just deal with the fact that it's not a perfect system and keep pressing on.


After talking to them I can tell you no they didnt question anything. When i asked about comment cards or if anyone talked to the judge, I was told "No they cannot change the score"

They didnt even talk about comment cards. I was close enough that i heard the whole talk they gave to the judges. Tom was pretty upset comment cards were not made available.

motley que
06-29-2009, 09:06 AM
i had one rib entry that was thrown in a box without any garnish and had a ton of sauce. We brought it to the table captains attention that it should be pooling and he took it to someone for clarification. was ruled not pooling. Crazy cause the captain thought it was also. dont know how anyone could have felt that it was that way. chit looked like chit

paydabill
06-29-2009, 09:06 AM
I feel your pain brother - In ribs this last weekend we got a 6 - 9 - 8. The person did not like the look, but thought they were the best tasting things. The rest of the appearance scores were 8 and 9s.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 09:17 AM
i had one rib entry that was thrown in a box without any garnish and had a ton of sauce. We brought it to the table captains attention that it should be pooling and he took it to someone for clarification. was ruled not pooling. Crazy cause the captain thought it was also. dont know how anyone could have felt that it was that way. chit looked like chit

I had someone's entry provided to me earlier this year where the ribs were upsidedown. My first thought was they turned the box in upside down...ummm no, the garnish was in the right place. They just turned in them willy nilly upside down and one judge gave them a 9!

motley que
06-29-2009, 09:23 AM
I had someone's entry provided to me earlier this year where the ribs were upsidedown. My first thought was they turned the box in upside down...ummm no, the garnish was in the right place. They just turned in them willy nilly upside down and one judge gave them a 9!


got one of those also, gave it a 6, and i thought that was generous

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 09:51 AM
got one of those also, gave it a 6, and i thought that was generous

I heard someone did it at taylorville.
I wonder if someone is doing it on purpose.

Bentley
06-29-2009, 10:20 AM
It may not be the judge. You were smart to question the rep. The 5 is harder to explain, but I wonder if the 4 could really have been a 9 and the person scoring read it wrong.

I have always wonder if a team is allowed to ask to see the score slip. By that time, awards are done an reps probably arent going to do anything anyway.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 10:30 AM
It may not be the judge. You were smart to question the rep. The 5 is harder to explain, but I wonder if the 4 could really have been a 9 and the person scoring read it wrong.

I have always wonder if a team is allowed to ask to see the score slip. By that time, awards are done an reps probably arent going to do anything anyway.


I really think there is a good possiblity that the four was data entry - handwriting problem, esp. since the issues these reps had the week before in Sedalia. I just dont trust their work.

The five could be for small pieces of chicken. Maybe the judge wants to see large pieces of chicken. I dont think that it is right to score that way but I think it is a possibility.

The four really makes no sense to me at all

bignburlyman
06-29-2009, 11:41 AM
I thought the chicken looked good, would have scored at least an 8 by me, they may be small pieces but I liked the look. The ribs box looked unbalanced, too much green at the front. I'd say 7 scored from the pic.

David

Edit to add: I have input score cards for contests here, and have to say some people need remedial penmanship lessons, if the score is unreadable I will ask to have it confirmed before entry. But sometimes entry errors do occur, thats why I usually run the numbers in two different times.

musicmanryann
06-29-2009, 11:49 AM
It may not be the judge. You were smart to question the rep. The 5 is harder to explain, but I wonder if the 4 could really have been a 9 and the person scoring read it wrong.

I have always wonder if a team is allowed to ask to see the score slip. By that time, awards are done an reps probably arent going to do anything anyway.

There was a thread that discussed this last week. Merl said it is allowed to ask to see the slips, but I believe he said he mails them once he gets home. Could be worng, but that is what I remember.

Overall though, if there was a mistake, or it was suspected there was a mistake in the data entry process, I know the reps or even the home office would investigate it and if there was an error, do whatever it takes to correct it.

Brew-B-Q
06-29-2009, 12:32 PM
If penmanship is a concern, why don't they make slips that have 1-9 and you just put a check next to the number you want? I know the sheet would be larger, but it would eliminate any large errors.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 01:07 PM
I thought the chicken looked good, would have scored at least an 8 by me, they may be small pieces but I liked the look. The ribs box looked unbalanced, too much green at the front. I'd say 7 scored from the pic.

David

Edit to add: I have input score cards for contests here, and have to say some people need remedial penmanship lessons, if the score is unreadable I will ask to have it confirmed before entry. But sometimes entry errors do occur, thats why I usually run the numbers in two different times.

Thanks David. I thoguht it looked good too.

When I table captain, I always check the cards to make sure the scores are in line but also the numbers are readable. I would say at least once a contest i have to ask a judge what the number is. Rather sad.

Brewmaster
06-29-2009, 01:14 PM
Maybe they need to go to a Scantron system. Fill in the little oval.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 01:18 PM
naw, lets use punch cards, that way we can blame the hanging chad.

stlgreg
06-29-2009, 01:39 PM
Greg, Our chicken box must have hit the same table as yours.You have no 5 or 4 there at all, chicken 8, ribs 7.Michele told me late that morning that they had 100 % cbj's.
My chicken appearance ranged from 5 to 9. My last 4 chciken contest places are 8th ,3rd,7th, and pacific.....wait for it....37th..
You could tell the reps were lost just by the awards ceremony alone...sad..
I do think the organizer put on a fun contest though, except for the heat..


Hummm KCBS is listing 93% and I saw at least two CBJs that were acting as table captain instead of judging. So we had CBJs not eating so non-KCBS judges could eat.

Bentley
06-29-2009, 03:03 PM
I saw at least two CBJs that were acting as table captain instead of judging. So we had CBJs not eating so non-KCBS judges could eat.

Seen that at more than one contest I have judged, never did get it!

BRBBQ
06-29-2009, 06:09 PM
I agree, non kcbs judge. I judged a few comps last year that just found filler judges off the street. It's not fair to all teams.

Solidkick
06-29-2009, 07:34 PM
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28412&stc=1&d=1246243742
Your top three needed to be your bottom three.....and rearrange some of the others.
I would have given it an 8.

The Pickled Pig (Paul) is on the same thinking lines as I am about the ribs, the box doesn't look full with the gap in the front.
I would have given it a 7.

we're seeing some of the same stuff you are this year as well. Our brisket appearance scores have always been 8s and mostly 9s. This year, seeing more 7s...probably because I just turn in slices....comparison judging to other boxes that has chunks or burnt ends.........whatever happened to judging each entry on it's own merit?

lunchlady
06-29-2009, 11:43 PM
judges seriously wouldn't give an 8 or 9 for that chicken's appearance?
Looks like I would love to eat it, and that means it gets a good appearance score from me. ( Yes, I'm a CBJ)

Granted, I HATE little packages of chicken, reminds me of wedding food, but now... they have to be all in order, all the same size, re-arranged, etc... WTF ????
Next I will need to make sparkles shoot out the damn box in order to get a 9.

but seriously folks... come on! Good Q looks like GOOD Q... and that does look like a fine sample.

When do they say at the judges meeting/class that you should score down for pieces not being identical? Or pieces being in the wrong place? Or too much green in the front of the rib box?

As far as I know, in nature, there are no identical freakin chicken thighs!
No wonder we suck at chicken lately.

Judges, please use your comment cards, and please be specific! We're dying out here!

rweller
06-30-2009, 07:55 AM
Greg, after seeing your chicken my table did not have it. I agree with what you said. I would give you chicken a 8/9 and ribs 7. I think you right on, you surely don't deserve a 4 or 5.
I seen somethings I didn't like this last weekend at Pacific but Im just a judge.

Now that you have seen teh pics would you believe this?
Chicken - 959887 - 5?
Ribs - 977478 - 4?

I asked the reps about it. Was the judge talked to? Was there a comment card? Turned out they didnt make comment cards available. I was told that the scores could not be changed. They really didnt understand what I was after.

I dont think either box deserved a 4 or 5 - if you do I am sorry to bother you with this rant - but if you arent talking to the judge then doesnt he/she do it again and again?

(Personally I would have given my chicken a 8 or 9 and my ribs a 7)

BTW, my pork was 878888 and my brisket was 888888 so the problem was not in every category

rweller
06-30-2009, 08:07 AM
Hummm KCBS is listing 93% and I saw at least two CBJs that were acting as table captain instead of judging. So we had CBJs not eating so non-KCBS judges could eat.

Greg, all table captains also judged and they were KCBS certified. Not sure what the percentage of KCBS certified was but there were a good number that weren't KCBS certified. I would say 70% maybe.

Brewmaster
06-30-2009, 08:14 AM
Greg, after seeing your chicken my table did not have it. I agree with what you said. I would give you chicken a 8/9 and ribs 7. I think you right on, you surely don't deserve a 4 or 5.
I seen somethings I didn't like this last weekend at Pacific but Im just a judge.

I assume you are talking about the reps. Can you elaborate?

daedalus
06-30-2009, 08:32 AM
8 for the chicken, 7 for the ribs....no one could justify 4's and 5's on either of those boxes for appearance.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-30-2009, 09:45 AM
I would go 7 or eight in the chicken, the black spots keep it from a nine, they look like dirty crumbs that fell off the top rack of you smoker (yes I have experience with this) The ribs I would go 6, the color is decent but the meat is all over the place, trim your ribs better and get the higher score, they look like they came right out of the cryo, cooked, sliced and boxed. I could care less about the gap in the front of not it has nothing to do with the meat.

stlgreg
06-30-2009, 10:00 AM
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28412&stc=1&d=1246243742
Your top three needed to be your bottom three.....and rearrange some of the others.
I would have given it an 8.

The Pickled Pig (Paul) is on the same thinking lines as I am about the ribs, the box doesn't look full with the gap in the front.
I would have given it a 7.

we're seeing some of the same stuff you are this year as well. Our brisket appearance scores have always been 8s and mostly 9s. This year, seeing more 7s...probably because I just turn in slices....comparison judging to other boxes that has chunks or burnt ends.........whatever happened to judging each entry on it's own merit?


Thanks Mr. Kick! I am not saying I deserved straight 9s on either entry. Beleive me! :-D:-D:-D

After the chicken turn in, I really started to feel the heat then i tasted the ribs and each one was a little bitter - I have to figure out why. Otherwise that box would have looked better but a 4?

stlgreg
06-30-2009, 10:02 AM
Greg, after seeing your chicken my table did not have it. I agree with what you said. I would give you chicken a 8/9 and ribs 7. I think you right on, you surely don't deserve a 4 or 5.
I seen somethings I didn't like this last weekend at Pacific but Im just a judge.

A good judge at that or shall i say a FAIR judge - all I can ask! I have been around you enough to know.

To any organizer out there if STLLOUQUE or Ralph want to judge your contest take them in a heartbeat. They want to do the fair thing

stlgreg
06-30-2009, 10:04 AM
judges seriously wouldn't give an 8 or 9 for that chicken's appearance?
Looks like I would love to eat it, and that means it gets a good appearance score from me. ( Yes, I'm a CBJ)

Granted, I HATE little packages of chicken, reminds me of wedding food, but now... they have to be all in order, all the same size, re-arranged, etc... WTF ????
Next I will need to make sparkles shoot out the damn box in order to get a 9.

but seriously folks... come on! Good Q looks like GOOD Q... and that does look like a fine sample.

When do they say at the judges meeting/class that you should score down for pieces not being identical? Or pieces being in the wrong place? Or too much green in the front of the rib box?

As far as I know, in nature, there are no identical freakin chicken thighs!
No wonder we suck at chicken lately.

Judges, please use your comment cards, and please be specific! We're dying out here!

Thanks lunchlady, you said it well!

When i sit down to judge for appearance all I am looking at it how much do I really want to eat that meat! Of course some things come into play like shiners in ribs, meat looks dried out, but that is nothing but a factor on how much i want to eat it!

stlgreg
06-30-2009, 10:06 AM
I would go 7 or eight in the chicken, the black spots keep it from a nine, they look like dirty crumbs that fell off the top rack of you smoker (yes I have experience with this) The ribs I would go 6, the color is decent but the meat is all over the place, trim your ribs better and get the higher score, they look like they came right out of the cryo, cooked, sliced and boxed. I could care less about the gap in the front of not it has nothing to do with the meat.


Thanks for the black spot remark! I will watch that in the future.

swamprb
06-30-2009, 10:37 AM
When you think about the times you judged, do you ever ask any at your table if they cook BBQ at home or even compete? The majority of them in MY area don't. And couldn't give a rats a$$ how much effort you put into the boxes. They are there for the "good BBQ" and have the balls to sit and pontificate. And if you call them on it they get all defensive and just scurry off with their ziplocks! I never see them at the awards and never had one stop by and introduce themselves to me after judging, I know who some of them are and cringe when I see them walking past my booth with their coolers. Professional Eaters! Judge Farked-I like that one!

But it wouldn't be a ballgame without an Umpire, and love or hate them its all their opinion.

stlgreg
06-30-2009, 10:56 AM
When you think about the times you judged, do you ever ask any at your table if they cook BBQ at home or even compete? The majority of them in MY area don't. And couldn't give a rats a$$ how much effort you put into the boxes. They are there for the "good BBQ" and have the balls to sit and pontificate. And if you call them on it they get all defensive and just scurry off with their ziplocks! I never see them at the awards and never had one stop by and introduce themselves to me after judging, I know who some of them are and cringe when I see them walking past my booth with their coolers. Professional Eaters! Judge Farked-I like that one!

But it wouldn't be a ballgame without an Umpire, and love or hate them its all their opinion.


Oh yeah, I coudl name a few of those too but i really dont want to start naming names on that end.

Alexa RnQ
06-30-2009, 10:59 AM
When you think about the times you judged, do you ever ask any at your table if they cook BBQ at home or even compete? The majority of them in MY area don't. And couldn't give a rats a$$ how much effort you put into the boxes. They are there for the "good BBQ" and have the balls to sit and pontificate. And if you call them on it they get all defensive and just scurry off with their ziplocks! I never see them at the awards and never had one stop by and introduce themselves to me after judging, I know who some of them are and cringe when I see them walking past my booth with their coolers.
I'm sorry you've had this experience. In our area, several of our judges DO compete. We know a good many of them, new as we are, and engage them in conversation after judging and thank them for their efforts, because as you point out there's no contest without them. Some of them travel hundreds of miles and incur hotel and other expenses, with no hope of compensation -- just for the love of this hobby, and because CBJs aren't as thick on the ground here as in other areas.

Spydermike72
06-30-2009, 11:11 AM
Dont the high and the low score get thrown out ??

Alexa RnQ
06-30-2009, 11:21 AM
Just the low score.

We've heard of reps telling a consistently-low-scoring judge that they're wasting their seat, because their score is always the one that gets thrown out -- therefore that judge's scores become irrelevant.

rweller
06-30-2009, 11:28 AM
I assume you are talking about the reps. Can you elaborate?

Would rather not on here. I will tell you the next time I see ya.
I thought the reps did a good job from my perspective. But I wasn't a cook either.

Spydermike72
06-30-2009, 11:36 AM
Just the low score.

We've heard of reps telling a consistently-low-scoring judge that they're wasting their seat, because their score is always the one that gets thrown out -- therefore that judge's scores become irrelevant.

Thanks!! I was confused....

musicmanryann
06-30-2009, 11:47 AM
Just the low score.

We've heard of reps telling a consistently-low-scoring judge that they're wasting their seat, because their score is always the one that gets thrown out -- therefore that judge's scores become irrelevant.

But they are relevant due to the fact that because they are always the lowest score the second lowest score is always counted.:mrgreen:

Spydermike72
06-30-2009, 02:13 PM
But they are relevant due to the fact that because they are always the lowest score the second lowest score is always counted.:mrgreen:

Yes you are correct!!

In this case, if the 5 is thrown out then you have a pretty good score. We are talking human judging here and one persons 5 may be another's 7...

Bentley
06-30-2009, 03:02 PM
But they are relevant due to the fact that because they are always the lowest score the second lowest score is always counted.:mrgreen:


Bing fricken go!

musicmanryann
06-30-2009, 03:05 PM
Bing fricken go!

Not sure what that means.?

monty3777
06-30-2009, 03:11 PM
I really think there is a good possiblity that the four was data entry - handwriting problem, esp. since the issues these reps had the week before in Sedalia. I just dont trust their work.


The four really makes no sense to me at all

Back when I used to finance depreciating assets I had a car loan that was ~$400 per month. One month my bank statement showed I was $500 over my limit. After checking my statements I realized that my 4 was mistaken for a 9.

Wouldn't that suck if the judge in question was giving you a perfect score?:roll:

Bentley
06-30-2009, 03:13 PM
Not sure what that means.?


If I get a 9 8 8 7 6 5 were the 4 judges wrong and the 2 others correct?

If I get a 6 6 7 6 6 5 I can understand, my BBQ was average...Its when you get the other scores you scratch your head.

Like many have said it is a roll of the dice after 7 years of competing I am slowly accepting that.

That is why I have allways given a comment card if I score a 5 or below, I believe I owe it to that team to articulate why.

musicmanryann
06-30-2009, 03:18 PM
OIC, sorry--I was previously not privy to that colloquialism. Thanks for the education.

daedalus
06-30-2009, 03:54 PM
When you think about the times you judged, do you ever ask any at your table if they cook BBQ at home or even compete? The majority of them in MY area don't. And couldn't give a rats a$$ how much effort you put into the boxes. They are there for the "good BBQ" and have the balls to sit and pontificate. And if you call them on it they get all defensive and just scurry off with their ziplocks! I never see them at the awards and never had one stop by and introduce themselves to me after judging, I know who some of them are and cringe when I see them walking past my booth with their coolers. Professional Eaters! Judge Farked-I like that one!

But it wouldn't be a ballgame without an Umpire, and love or hate them its all their opinion.

Why would a judge be supposed to care about the effort that goes into the boxes. They aren't judging effort...only the end result. If effort was a criteria, they would put judges at your tent during turn-in time and score how hard you worked at it. Having said that, I do think that there are good judges and bad judges, just like there are good cooks and bad cooks. It is unfortunate when a bad judge ruins the effort of a good cook, like in this case.

Bentley
06-30-2009, 04:28 PM
Why would a judge be supposed to care about the effort that goes into the boxes. They aren't judging effort...only the end result. If effort was a criteria, they would put judges at your tent during turn-in time and score how hard you worked at it. the effort of a good cook, like in this case.


Excellent point...!

Pickin' Porkers
06-30-2009, 09:15 PM
We all fuss about judging and I even judge. I REALLY try to look at the product and not the other garbage. My limit was surpassed a few weeks ago when we got a comment card from a judge that said "sauce smears on the lid". Gave us a 5 on appearance. GEESSSSHHHH....LOOK at the MEAT not the presentaion for goodness sakes.....and yes..I showed the card to the rep.....not much thay can do but PLEASE reps....EXPLAIN to the judges that these types of comments are NOT what they are to look at.....it's as bad as star struck judges at an MBN cook-off......

Gadragonfly
07-01-2009, 12:23 AM
Everytime I see a thread like this I want to ask the Admins to give us a "Judging" forum (CJT - Continuing Judges Training), perhaps a subforum of Competition BBQ where teams can post pictures and we can critique and discuss why we judge the way we do. Perhaps the person who gave 4s and 5s on these two entries would feel more comfortable if the thread was developed to discuss why one person would give a 5 and another a 9. I'd love to discuss ribs - the different type of ribs and how to judge the large shaggy looking ribs - are they supposed to look shaggy or are they cut wrong? What about brisket, what gives a brisket a score of 9? Not from the cooks point of view but from a judges pov. Maybe through discussion and debate we can find some common ground. I always hate hearing my table captain say "These teams have come from a long distance and spent a lot of money. They deserve honest judges and I like to see high scores for their efforts. This is all well and good provided all of the tables are getting this same lecture and all of the tables are going to score high for the time and money put into the weekend. I figure each team has similar amounts of money invested and we should all (every table) be judging on the meat....not how much it cost to get that large gas guzzling rig to the meet. So, would teams be willing to submit boxes to be "judged and judges scores critiqued in an honest manner?" I know there are other threads (such as this one) where pictures show up and questions are asked, but most of the time these threads break down to competitors saying their competition got hosed by the judges. Not exactly a constructive way to train our judges. Just my 0.02. What say those of you with more experience than me?

Ford
07-01-2009, 05:15 AM
We all fuss about judging and I even judge. I REALLY try to look at the product and not the other garbage. My limit was surpassed a few weeks ago when we got a comment card from a judge that said "sauce smears on the lid". Gave us a 5 on appearance. GEESSSSHHHH....LOOK at the MEAT not the presentaion for goodness sakes.....and yes..I showed the card to the rep.....not much thay can do but PLEASE reps....EXPLAIN to the judges that these types of comments are NOT what they are to look at.....it's as bad as star struck judges at an MBN cook-off......
Now the Rep should have talked to that judge right then. The rules for judging were revised awhile back and you don't score sown for sauce on the lid.
However if the sauce on the lid came from the meat in the box then the comment really was the meat looks poor because the sauce was all smeared and messy because the lid rubbed. That is legit scoring. I know that's not what was written in this case but maybe the judge combined a number of thoughts and hoped you'd figure it out.

BBQ_Mayor
07-01-2009, 07:20 AM
OIC, sorry--I was previously not privy to that colloquialism. Thanks for the education.


Ryan, you just can't use these big words here. me no understand.:shock:


Bottom line is, we have judges that look at a box and try to find the things that the cook did wrong. On the other side, we have judges that look at the box and try to find what the cook did right.
We can't change that, turn in your box and hope for the best.

I would question the 4 being a possiable 9 thought.

bignburlyman
07-01-2009, 07:55 AM
Right or wrong I have heard judges comment that they gave a good apperance score because there was a lot of meat in the box. Earlier I commented on the rib box about too much green in the front and a following post was slightly critical comment regarding that observation. I felt maybe I should explain "MY" judging technique---I "TRY" not to look at the garnish, as after all it is a meat contest right? I don't look for sauce smears on the box, I don't care if you use lettuce or parsley, and usually I couldn't even tell if you used kale (which is a DQ). Some teams put extraordinary effort into their garnish and some seem not to care. Sometimes you see the same thing with the meat in the box. Part of my comment to STLGREG regarded the rib box looked unbalanced, another rib sideways across the front may have made a big difference to the eye. It is hard to judge from a picture, I always try to look at the box from each angle as the table captain is passing it by. I do take judging very seriously, and I appreciate all the effort everyone puts into their turn-ins.

I took 4 Legs Ups' cooking class last winter and after building my first box using parsley (and thinking this is a major pain in the rear!) I finished the rest of the boxes with flat leaf lettuce and only framed the meat in the box. We were judged by a group of certified judges that were brought in---and I placed 2nd overall. If only I wouldn't have overcooked my chicken and ribs, lol.

David Keyse
CBJ #5112

motley que
07-01-2009, 10:47 AM
As a judge, when the box is opened, if I get a feeling of "man that looks great, cant wait to taste it", odds are it will get a 9. I dont care what the garnish is, I just want a nice looking box, but i focus more on the appearence of the meat. 7's & 8's are just below that standard.

J Appledog
07-01-2009, 08:54 PM
As a CBJ and occasional competitor I find this a really disturbing thread. I was an art major; my turn-in boxes are always pretty. As a judge I judge ONLY the appearance of the MEAT in the appearance category. What's so hard about that?

I love FBA....

stlgreg
07-02-2009, 08:07 AM
Right or wrong I have heard judges comment that they gave a good apperance score because there was a lot of meat in the box.

Once I was a table capatain and a rib box came through - appearance scores were 4 9s and 2 7s. I asked the two guys why the gave it 7s and one told me "the box was too full," then the other guy agreed.

Too full of ribs? I just shook my head and went onto the next category.

Bentley
07-02-2009, 12:47 PM
Once I was a table capatain and a rib box came through - appearance scores were 4 9s and 2 7s. I asked the two guys why the gave it 7s and one told me "the box was too full," then the other guy agreed.

Too full of ribs? I just shook my head and went onto the next category.


Just like some of the comments I have read on this Forum that there was to little meat in the box.

As long as it has the required amount, should that matter?

And as an experienced CBJ, I have seen boxes that are too full for my prefrence. That is when you have to try and judge the meat and leave your personal prefference at the door. Problem is to many judges won't!