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Peteg
06-22-2009, 06:57 PM
Hey guys, I've read threads that say that you are not allowed to split a turn-in meat during cooking and then continue on with both portions of meat. Is it ok to split the brisket before hand and cook the flat and point sepearately? I know that many teams do that, but I just wanted to make sure that it's legal. Also, would I have any trouble getting throught the meat inspection with the point and flat seperated? Thanks for any help. Pete G.

early mornin' smokin'
06-22-2009, 07:02 PM
im pretty sure you can do as you please with brisket. Pork butts may not be seperated or halved. Brisket can be point, flat, whatever ud like.

Trainwreck
06-22-2009, 07:29 PM
Pork would be the only one you can not split or seperate and continue on cooking in KCBS

Peteg
06-22-2009, 08:43 PM
Cool. Thanks for the help guys. Nice to here from you Andy.

Skip
06-23-2009, 08:06 AM
Pork would be the only one you can not split or seperate and continue on cooking in KCBS


Can you clarify a little for me on this point. I have seen people pull sections of their butt, sauce them and return them to the cooker. Also there is a picnic and a butt. Thats already seperated. Then there is the boneless butt which can be considered seperated.

I must be missing something. Thanks for any clarification on what is meant by splitting or sperating the pork.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 08:16 AM
splitting would be making it less then 5 pounds for instance, removing the money muscle and returning the rest of the butt to the cooker for pulled. I spoke with many reps and they told me you can sauce your meat before boxing and return to the cooker to reheat. That is not cooking, that is heating up.

Skip
06-23-2009, 08:23 AM
So it is considered illegal to remove the money muscle and return the rest of the butt to the cooker? I have known teams to remove the money muscle, the dipstick and some other fat laden portions, sauce them and return them to the cooker while returning the other parts of the butt for a longer cook for chopped and pulled. I was thinking of trying this but won't if its actually against the rules.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 08:24 AM
So it is considered illegal to remove the money muscle and return the rest of the butt to the cooker? I have known teams to remove the money muscle, the dipstick and some other fat laden portions, sauce them and return them to the cooker while returning the other parts of the butt for a longer cook for chopped and pulled. I was thinking of trying this but won't if its actually against the rules.

What you are explaining is completely illegal according to my interp of the rule. You cannot return the butt for longer cooking after taking done parts off.

Divemaster
06-23-2009, 09:15 AM
So it is considered illegal to remove the money muscle and return the rest of the butt to the cooker? I have known teams to remove the money muscle, the dipstick and some other fat laden portions, sauce them and return them to the cooker while returning the other parts of the butt for a longer cook for chopped and pulled. I was thinking of trying this but won't if its actually against the rules.

What you are explaining is completely illegal according to my interp of the rule. You cannot return the butt for longer cooking after taking done parts off.
I agree... What OC was talking about was re-heating not initial cooking.

VGuilford
06-23-2009, 10:00 AM
Can you cook 2 butts pull one for slicing and leave the other for pulling?

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 10:07 AM
Can you cook 2 butts pull one for slicing and leave the other for pulling?

Yes you can. Back to the brisket. I do not seperate at all ever. Not even for slicing, you risk the loss of too many juices.

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 10:17 AM
splitting would be making it less then 5 pounds for instance, removing the money muscle and returning the rest of the butt to the cooker for pulled. I spoke with many reps and they told me you can sauce your meat before boxing and return to the cooker to reheat. That is not cooking, that is heating up.

I have heard exactly the opposite that once it is parted / pulled / sliced, it can not go back on the cooker for any reason even to reheat. Can we get a definitive answer from KCBS on this?

Divemaster
06-23-2009, 11:13 AM
Yes you can. Back to the brisket. I do not seperate at all ever. Not even for slicing, you risk the loss of too many juices.
Funny, I do the opposit... I ALWAYS split mine before I start the cook and have not had a dry brisket in the last 15 years...

The Pickled Pig
06-23-2009, 11:44 AM
Regarding the pork reheating, here's a lengthy thread addressing the topic: http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45459

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 12:14 PM
Regarding the pork reheating, here's a lengthy thread addressing the topic: http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45459

It really doesn't address the reheating at all, mostly the parting and 5lb issues.

Question: Is it legal to pull / slice / chunck your pork (When done), then reheat in your cooker for nice hot turn in?

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 12:32 PM
^^^^^^^ I still say yes, I always do it and so does just about every other team I know. I am not cooking it, I am bringing it to temp so it can be enjoyed hot.

Skip
06-23-2009, 12:38 PM
Thanks Paul. That was very informative.

What I've seen I gather was just warming and setting of sauce. I have seen teams pull and rest butts then dismantle the butt and pick the pieces they want for slicing and sauce and return to the cooker just to set a glaze. That I am gathering would not be illegal as the meat was already cooked. Or am I wrong?

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 12:38 PM
^^^^^^^ I still say yes, I always do it and so does just about every other team I know. I am not cooking it, I am bringing it to temp so it can be enjoyed hot.

I agree, just don't want to be doing the wrong thing and one day catch a random DQ because someone noticed or complained.

Scottie
06-23-2009, 01:00 PM
I've had discussions with folks on this very subject... (Folks that interpret the rules.) If you slice, chunk or pull your pork, you can't put it back in the cooker. No matter what you are saying you are doing to it. As there is no difference in putting it in the smoker or a microwaver to "re-heat"....

Skip
06-23-2009, 01:05 PM
So you are saying you can't reheat it even after its been coolered for hours?

Scottie
06-23-2009, 01:12 PM
A few years ago there was a big stink about holding containers... I know this subject was brought up. It was illegal then, so unless they have changed their stance and I missed it, you can't do that to pork. But it would be legal to do it to a point from a brisket, just because it doesn't have that "parting" rule...

I think you guys are making this rule grey, when it shouldn't be. As drbbq said, the intent of the rule should be followed. It would sure s*ck if we had to police each other!!! I know I would not enjoy having to turn in someone for doing this...

If you cut the money muscle off and cooler the entire roast and decide to put the rest of the butt in to "re-heat" for 5 more hours... Is that legal? No it's not, so why would it be legal to slice, then re-heat?

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:21 PM
Re heating is not cooking, putting something back on to achieve a certain internal temp is. Setting the sauce or what ever else people do to their meat after they have pulled it should be legal in my opinion.

Skip
06-23-2009, 01:32 PM
I find it strange that we can slice a brisket and reheat it yet not a pork butt. As was already stated just using hot sauce could be considered cooking.

I know it would be hard for a rep to come in here and interpet the rule but I find it strange that warming or setting the sauce would be illegal but I can also see how some would consider it cooking.

Someone said that when different techniques become popular that problems may arise in the wording of a rule. I don't know if thats the case but it could be. I just want to make sure I don't cheat....nothing i hate more then liars and cheats.

Scottie
06-23-2009, 01:34 PM
You guys are missing the rule... This is specific for PORK!!!! If you do it, don't be surprised when someone turns you in to the reps...

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:37 PM
I know that it is specifically for pork..... If someone turns a team in for this it would be very ratty and childish. The rule is not clear so it would not be cheating it would be my interpretation of the rule.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:41 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or
Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.
Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be
parted.

That is very unclear imo.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:42 PM
Sorry for the hijack - back to brisket!!!!!:)

Alexa RnQ
06-23-2009, 01:45 PM
I know that it is specifically for pork..... If someone turns a team in for this it would be very ratty and childish. The rule is not clear so it would not be cheating it would be my interpretation of the rule.

Childish? I don't find namecalling terribly mature, nor saying that your "interpretation" should take precedence over the intent of the rule.

A lot of people would like to think that their rationalization is not cheating.
A lot more have no problem whatsoever following the rules and their intent.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Intent of the rule as per who? You? read the rule as it's written. You have your interp and I have mine. Call me what you want. Looks like I struck close to home!!! The KCBS better take back a lot of trophies over this one.

Alexa RnQ
06-23-2009, 01:52 PM
Intent of the rule as per who? You? read the rule as it's written. You have your interp and I have mine. Call me what you want. Looks like I struck close to home!!! The KCBS better take back a lot of trophies over this one.
Saying your intent is to subvert the rules with your "interpretation" is going to strike close to home with any team who competes with integrity.

The Pickled Pig
06-23-2009, 01:54 PM
Regardless of whether you agree with the rule or not, there are enough experienced folks here giving you the generally accepted interpretation. Further, it has been proven by many members here that you need not violate that interpretation to win the pork category at a contest. I personally think the way we apply the parting rule is silly but even if it was changed, I wouldn't prepare my pork entry any differently.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:56 PM
Saying your intent is to subvert the rules with your "interpretation" is going to strike close to home with any team who competes with integrity.

Read the rule I didn't write it. You are arguing your interp of the rule is correct and I understand. I am not going to argue or question your integrity, please do not question mine. I am very honest and do not cheat or personally care what you think. Thanks for your opinions, they are like a holes everyone has one!!!!!!

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 01:59 PM
I just believe a rule needs to be clear, that all. Good day!!!

Jorge
06-23-2009, 02:06 PM
Re heating is not cooking, putting something back on to achieve a certain internal temp is. Setting the sauce or what ever else people do to their meat after they have pulled it should be legal in my opinion.

Reading that final sentence, I'm having a hard time understanding how that isn't some form of cooking.

Stoke&Smoke
06-23-2009, 02:09 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or
Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.
Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

Not trying to pick a fight, but finding it hard to see what is hard to interpret here, or unclear.

You need to have some portion of the whole shoulder. The whole thing, butt, or picnic, that weighs over 5 pounds. It has to be cooked as a single piece (not parted). That means whether you start with a picnic, butt or shoulder, you must cook that piece whole from start to finish.

I have heard of folks sort of butterflying the money muscle to allow it to form a bark all around, and as long as it remains a single piece of meat, that seems to keep to the rule. But if you separate it into more than one piece, it's parted. What's unclear about that?

Also, what is all this talk about warming up? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that having your meat cooked on time was part of the challenge. Pork pieces will keep at temp for hours coolered anyway, so what reason is there to reheat? My butts are usually done between 9 and 11 AM and stay piping hot in a cooler or cambro (we use Carlisles) for hours after turn-in.

Seems like this rule is crystal clear. What part of it is hard to understand? If I'm "setting my sauce, it's likely on ribs not butt, as I don't sauce butt, or if I do it's after it's pulled. If it's on the ribs, I'm not removing them from the cooker, just removing the lid.

IMHO - If you aren't following the rules, you're breaking them


Back to Brisket.

We separate our before slicing the point, but after it's cooked. Seems a lot easier to do it then than when it's still raw. No parting rule on briskie!

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 02:18 PM
Got an idea about setting the sauce. Take a raw piece of pork and coat it in BBQ sauce, put it on the smoke for 15 minutes to reheat and set the sauce. Remove it and eat it. You tell me if thats cooking!!

Jorge
06-23-2009, 02:20 PM
Got an idea about setting the sauce. Take a raw piece of pork and coat it in BBQ sauce, put it on the smoke for 15 minutes to reheat and set the sauce. Remove it and eat it. You tell me if thats cooking!!

If it isn't cooking, why are you returning the meat AND sauce to the cooker? Why can't the sauce be added on the cutting board?

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-23-2009, 02:21 PM
I cook whole packers intact. dont know why I just do.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 02:22 PM
I like to get the sauce hot and let gravity take it course directly on the piece of meat in the smoker to get everything hot as one.

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 02:24 PM
I just think this might not be widely understood.

As careful as I am pulling my pork it allways looses heat (I don't fit in the Cambro :-D).


Brisket: Separate after cooking...

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 02:26 PM
PORK: Pork is defined as Boston Butt, Picnic and/or



Whole Shoulder, weighing a minimum of five (5) pounds.
Pork shall be cooked (bone in or bone out) and shall not be parted.

Not trying to pick a fight, but finding it hard to see what is hard to interpret here, or unclear.

You need to have some portion of the whole shoulder. The whole thing, butt, or picnic, that weighs over 5 pounds. It has to be cooked as a single piece (not parted). That means whether you start with a picnic, butt or shoulder, you must cook that piece whole from start to finish.

I have heard of folks sort of butterflying the money muscle to allow it to form a bark all around, and as long as it remains a single piece of meat, that seems to keep to the rule. But if you separate it into more than one piece, it's parted. What's unclear about that?

Also, what is all this talk about warming up? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that having your meat cooked on time was part of the challenge. Pork pieces will keep at temp for hours coolered anyway, so what reason is there to reheat? My butts are usually done between 9 and 11 AM and stay piping hot in a cooler or cambro (we use Carlisles) for hours after turn-in.

Seems like this rule is crystal clear. What part of it is hard to understand? If I'm "setting my sauce, it's likely on ribs not butt, as I don't sauce butt, or if I do it's after it's pulled. If it's on the ribs, I'm not removing them from the cooker, just removing the lid.

IMHO - If you aren't following the rules, you're breaking them


Back to Brisket.

We separate our before slicing the point, but after it's cooked. Seems a lot easier to do it then than when it's still raw. No parting rule on briskie!


Thank you for your interpretation and understanding of this vague rule. You have added many variations of the rule to make it seem to make sense to you. This rule is based on complete interpretation and that is my point. Beside's not parting to cook, the rules sayes nothing else.

Jorge
06-23-2009, 02:28 PM
I like to get the sauce hot and let gravity take it course directly on the piece of meat in the smoker to get everything hot as one.

MY interpretation is that if you warmed the sauce in the cooker and applied it to your meat outside of the cooker you'd be legal.

I've got zero problem with someone returning a cubed up point w/sauce etc to a cooker to make burnt ends. The way the rule regarding pork is written, I think you are crossing the line.

To be clear...I AM NOT accusing you of cheating, because I don't believe that is your intent! I do believe that you ARE breaking the applicable rule for pork if this is what you are doing at a comp.

YankeeBBQ
06-23-2009, 02:29 PM
I've had discussions with folks on this very subject... (Folks that interpret the rules.) If you slice, chunk or pull your pork, you can't put it back in the cooker. No matter what you are saying you are doing to it. As there is no difference in putting it in the smoker or a microwaver to "re-heat"....

Do these folks have names ? What's the reason for this rule in the first place ? Is this one of those rules that came into play because some team was winning a lot and the people who attended the rules meeting were sick of getting beat ?

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 02:31 PM
MY interpretation is that if you warmed the sauce in the cooker and applied it to your meat outside of the cooker you'd be legal.
.

Isn't that technically cooking / warming the meat (with sauce)?

Jorge
06-23-2009, 02:34 PM
Isn't that technically cooking / warming the meat (with sauce)?

I don't believe so, but you are free to make that argument.

Skip
06-23-2009, 02:37 PM
I wouldn't say he is trying to subvet the rules by thinking warming up is not cooking. I can see both sides of that arguement and each is viable. By reheating most meat you probably won't garner enough heat and time to change the cooked properties of a piece of meat however by returning it to the cooker for whatever reason can be considered cooking it if you interpet cooking as applying heat to food for consumption.
I agree with him that there are teams out there who do return the meat to the cooker. I have seen it myself.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-23-2009, 02:37 PM
We could go on for days, I hate pork anyway! I much rather eat brisket and ribs. Pork and chicken get wrapped for my dog!!

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 02:42 PM
I don't believe so, but you are free to make that argument.


Just thinking that a team could then say, how about a cast iron skillet on a blasing hot grill then pull it off add sauce and mix your pork in there.

Is adding heat in any way to the pork considered cooking? The rule says nothing about where the cooking takes place (in / out of cooker).

I really just want to give the judges hot food. :cry:

Scottie
06-23-2009, 02:54 PM
Do these folks have names ? What's the reason for this rule in the first place ? Is this one of those rules that came into play because some team was winning a lot and the people who attended the rules meeting were sick of getting beat ?


Oh no... You aren't taking me down that road!!! My sources are confidential!!! :icon_shy:icon_shy:icon_shy

But I can't say I disagree with your thinking... Probably because Smokin' In the Boys Room were beating everyone's butts, hence the rule... :icon_smil

goodsmokebbq
06-23-2009, 03:27 PM
Isn't that technically cooking / warming the meat (with sauce)?

No matter how many intermediate steps you take you are still taking thermal energy from your cooker and applying it to your pork. How is this technically different from putting your pork on the cooker to warm up?

I am getting so confused:icon_smil

smokincracker
06-23-2009, 05:11 PM
Have you ever seen a smoke ring all the way around the money muscle?
I have parted the money muscle at home and it cooks well separated in the oven so I can imagine that it has been attempted in competition by others. (might cut down on cooking time) HUH I'm guessin thats the purpose of the rule.

The fact is I pull my pork right after chicken turn-in and place it in a half pan arranged so that building my pork box will be easy when the time comes. I foil the pan and then back in the hot box. I have several times put the pan back into the cooker right before turn in to heat up the pork before building the box. This will back fire if the cooker is too hot..burnt fingers! O and keep the foil on the pan cause it may dry out the pork (you think) Anyway guess Ive been cheating. I think you guys are missing the purpose of the rule. By the way Im guessing thats where Skip seen it done before! Go ahead fire away farkers no one is perfect and until I read this its never crossed my mind.

Peteg
06-23-2009, 05:33 PM
Wow, that's a lot of discussion for one day. Thanks for all of the advice both on pork and brisket. I would much rather cook a whole brisket and sepearte after cooking but I've found that I loose the smoke ring on the portion that's covered by the point. For that reason I've lately been parting before cooking. I'm glad you guys talked about pork, since I've been unclear on rules regarding it. It's all clear now, Pete

bigdogphin
06-23-2009, 06:08 PM
In regards to pork, can't you ask the reps at the cooks meeting for a clarification of the rule? Seems that would end some confusion at that particular contest.

In regards to brisket, I part the flat and point after cooking prior to slicing.

Coz
06-23-2009, 06:15 PM
Its clear as mud now Pete!I guess I will be asking the reps at each contest if I ever get to another one.

KC_Bobby
06-23-2009, 06:39 PM
If your smallest slice of money muscle weighs 5+ pounds, I say go for it. If it doesn't it shouldn't go back in the cooker based on the rule.

CajunSmoker
06-23-2009, 07:05 PM
Intent of the rule as per who? You? read the rule as it's written. You have your interp and I have mine. Call me what you want. Looks like I struck close to home!!! The KCBS better take back a lot of trophies over this one.

They won't take mine:!:

I've won first place pork and I believe reheating is a direct violation of the rules.

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
06-23-2009, 07:36 PM
not only do I not seperate my BRISKET, I also inject....oops sorry I thought this was a brisket tread........:icon_devil

Lakeside Smoker
06-24-2009, 02:22 PM
Rule #16:
g) After cooking, all meat:
i) Must be held at 140 F or above

If after pulling the pork it cools down below 140* what do you do?

musicmanryann
06-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Rule #16:
g) After cooking, all meat:
i) Must be held at 140° F or above

If after pulling the pork it cools down below 140* what do you do?

Honestly, you're screwed. You can't turn that meat in anyway. If you cooler it properly, you will have at least 5 hours flex-time before the pork approaches this temp, even more if you invest in a Cambro/Carlisle. If you need more time than that, you should probably work on your timing.

Oh, and I separate my briskys right before carving and turn-in time.

Lakeside Smoker
06-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Honestly, you're screwed. You can't turn that meat in anyway. If you cooler it properly, you will have at least 5 hours flex-time before the pork approaches this temp, even more if you invest in a Cambro/Carlisle. If you need more time than that, you should probably work on your timing.

What I meant was: when you 'pull' or slice the pork for the turn in box, and it gets cold (below 140*) what do you do?

Divemaster
06-24-2009, 03:13 PM
Honestly, you're screwed. You can't turn that meat in anyway. If you cooler it properly, you will have at least 5 hours flex-time before the pork approaches this temp, even more if you invest in a Cambro/Carlisle. If you need more time than that, you should probably work on your timing.

Oh, and I separate my briskys right before carving and turn-in time.

What I meant was: when you 'pull' or slice the pork for the turn in box, and it gets cold (below 140*) what do you do?
For the short amount of time (less than what, 20 minutes) that it's going to be waiting to be consumed, you're fine as far as the HD would be concerned...

Lakeside Smoker
06-24-2009, 03:30 PM
For the short amount of time (less than what, 20 minutes) that it's going to be waiting to be consumed, you're fine as far as the HD would be concerned...

I was just being rhetorical.
If the meat cools down to 140* and I do nothing I'd be in violation of rule #16. I'm just playing devils advocate. Not trying to stir the pot.

Scottie
06-24-2009, 03:32 PM
If the meat cools down to 140* and I do nothing I'd be in violation of rule #16. I'm just playing devils advocate. Not trying to stir the pot.

Yeah, but wouldn't you have 4 hours for it to go from 140 down to 40???!!!! :twisted:

ique
06-24-2009, 04:00 PM
The fact is I pull my pork right after chicken turn-in and place it in a half pan arranged so that building my pork box will be easy when the time comes. I foil the pan and then back in the hot box. I have several times put the pan back into the cooker right before turn in to heat up the pork before building the box.

I've done this too. Put processed pork into a 1/2 pan and then into the cooker to keep warm. It never occurred to me that it may be illegal. I guess I may need to give back a few pig trophies. The $$ is spent so sorry :wink:.

Since this was pointed out to me I have been holding in a hot cambro so there is no chance that I am breaking the rules.

Lakeside Smoker
06-24-2009, 04:09 PM
Yeah, but wouldn't you have 4 hours for it to go from 140 down to 40???!!!! :twisted:

hahah! oops, forgot about that! :-D

Jorge
06-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Yeah, but wouldn't you have 4 hours for it to go from 140 down to 40???!!!! :twisted:

$ muscle popsicle, it's the next big thing......

Smoke'n Ice
06-24-2009, 04:27 PM
Scottie,

I may be wrong but, I believe that the intent of the Servsafe rule is storage of the potentially hazardeous material in the unsafe zone not the amount of time that it takes the internal temperature of the meat to move to the unsafe zone. The surface of the potentially hazardeous material is the real intent of the rule. Once it leaves the cooking device, then the storage device air temperature must be maintained above 140 degree F or the product cooled rapidly (less than 2 hours) to below 41 degrees F and then stored in a container that will be maintained at or below 40 degree F. There must be a measuring device for the air temperature whose calibration is checked on a regular basis and it should be monitored so that corrective action can be taken.

If these limits can not be maintained, then the potentially hazardeous material should have a food label attached with the four hours time to discard.

This also implies that the heat source of the storage device, to meet KCBS, PNWBA, IBCA, FBA, etc. rules, must be charcoal or wood and you can't part the pork before it leaves the heat source forever.:-?

Mack

Scottie
06-24-2009, 04:29 PM
Man, good thing for youse guys, I 'm not going to LP... I'd be rolling over on all of ya to the reps!!! :twisted::shock:


In reality, I wish I had that much time to watch others cook. I could care less, unless it's an obvious infraction... But now I know the teams to watch!!!! :roll: At least my slices aren't smoke ring'd all the way around... There is at least a 1/4" of non-smoke ring... :icon_shy

Jorge
06-24-2009, 04:30 PM
Scottie was interjecting some humor and frivolity.

Smoke'n Ice
06-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Forgot to mention, that is why there are these little bitty holes with plastic caps on cambros so a temp probe can be stuck in the door to monitor.

Scottie
06-24-2009, 04:33 PM
You're right Jorge...

But I also separate my point from the flat when I am preparing for turn-in... But I also do something to it prior to cooking. But if I gave that advice, I might as well give a class too... :icon_shy

ique
06-24-2009, 04:43 PM
... But now I know the teams to watch!!!! :roll: At least my slices aren't smoke ring'd all the way around... There is at least a 1/4" of non-smoke ring... :icon_shy

I didnt think you could get a smoke ring with a pellet cooker?

YankeeBBQ
06-24-2009, 04:52 PM
I didnt think you could get a smoke ring with a pellet cooker?

You can't he was just joking. Pellet cookers make terrible food your much better off with that stick coffin of yours.

Scottie
06-24-2009, 05:07 PM
You can't he was just joking. Pellet cookers make terrible food your much better off with that stick coffin of yours.



You're right Steve. I can't get a smoke ring.... That's why I use so much tenderquick!!! Yeah, that's the ticket... ;-)

Jorge
06-24-2009, 05:21 PM
You're right Steve. I can't get a smoke ring.... That's why I use so much tenderquick!!! Yeah, that's the ticket... ;-)

When are you and Steve going to cook together as "Tommy Flanagan BBQ"?

ique
06-24-2009, 05:49 PM
You can't he was just joking. Pellet cookers make terrible food your much better off with that stick coffin of yours.

Yes I am.

Skip
06-24-2009, 10:03 PM
Man, good thing for youse guys, I 'm not going to LP... I'd be rolling over on all of ya to the reps!!! :twisted::shock:

Wow.

Capt ron
06-25-2009, 05:14 AM
Brisket yes and pork no...

Scottie
06-25-2009, 07:06 AM
Wow.


Wow what? I was joking. But to think that someone should look the otherway, while someone gets an advantage? I won't do that either. These guys know the rules, if folks decide to continue and cook doing and illegal way and if someone turns the in. That person is supposed to feel bad? Sorry. I don't feel sorry.

And for the record. Reps do read this forum. Even the one that goes to LP....

ique
06-25-2009, 08:01 AM
Wow what? I was joking. But to think that someone should look the otherway, while someone gets an advantage? I won't do that either. These guys know the rules, if folks decide to continue and cook doing and illegal way and if someone turns the in. That person is supposed to feel bad? Sorry. I don't feel sorry.

And for the record. Reps do read this forum. Even the one that goes to LP....

Good thing I'm not cooking LP! ::lol::

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 08:18 AM
I am, look out, I might cheat? Or is it cheating? There is no rule against reheating. Unless we add to what the rule doesn't say!!!

The funny thing is, the best I ever did in pork was when I did not reheat!!!

Scottie
06-25-2009, 08:33 AM
OC, I wasn'trying to single you out. You guys came out, I sure was not going to be busting someone for doing that. I also don't need somone pointing a finger at me or saying wow. My recommendation would be to ask the rep. I do that at every contest, if they are new reps to my team, so they know what I am doing with my pork. I don't want any surprises at the judging table! Reps have to clear through a lot of muddied areas, so it's good to know their thoughts.

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 08:38 AM
OC, I wasn'trying to single you out. You guys came out, I sure was not going to be busting someone for doing that. I also don't need somone pointing a finger at me or saying wow. My recommendation would be to ask the rep. I do that at every contest, if they are new reps to my team, so they know what I am doing with my pork. I don't want any surprises at the judging table! Reps have to clear through a lot of muddied areas, so it's good to know their thoughts.

I know that I am only busting ball. I am not going to reheat unless I get the go ahead from the reps with a witness from another team. :icon_smil

Vince RnQ
06-25-2009, 08:53 AM
You're right Jorge...

But I also separate my point from the flat when I am preparing for turn-in... But I also do something to it prior to cooking. But if I gave that advice, I might as well give a class too... :icon_shy


Some things just have be learned by trial and error, right amigo?

Where are going to be "moose watching" this weekend? I don't think I'll spot any in Albuquerque...unless it's the one in the mirror! Good luck wherever you are and go get Number 5!

Scottie
06-25-2009, 09:02 AM
This is my mandatory off week... aka I have to work on Friday... :icon_smil

buckinbbq
06-25-2009, 09:11 AM
What and where is the money muscle located?

Vince RnQ
06-25-2009, 09:12 AM
This is my mandatory off week... aka I have to work on Friday... :icon_smil

That's just wrong!

goodsmokebbq
06-25-2009, 10:12 AM
I know that I am only busting ball. I am not going to reheat unless I get the go ahead from the reps with a witness from another team. :icon_smil


Can't wait for the team meeting at LP... :-D

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 10:13 AM
Can't wait for the team meeting at LP... :-D

haha

Peteg
06-25-2009, 10:17 AM
Where's LP?

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 10:19 AM
Lake placid

Sledneck
06-25-2009, 10:21 AM
What and where is the money muscle located?
http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34340&highlight=money+muscle

Sledneck
06-25-2009, 10:30 AM
For pork butts I use of these on it to make them tender

Then I use one of these to pound out the meat real thin

I get plenty of surface area for bark and the meat is always so tender and cooks so fast

No need to part at all

Jorge
06-25-2009, 10:32 AM
Can't wait for the team meeting at LP... :-D

I've already asked somebody to record it for me:wink:

Peteg
06-25-2009, 10:46 AM
Do you think we can get YouTube to go there?

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 10:56 AM
I've already asked somebody to record it for me:wink:

I cannot make it, I will be back at my site seperating my butts.

Lakeside Smoker
06-25-2009, 01:20 PM
I think I'll be pulling my charcoal basket out of my cooker around 12:45. Better safe than DQ'ed!

Jacked UP BBQ
06-25-2009, 01:30 PM
I think I'll be pulling my charcoal basket out of my cooker around 12:45. Better safe than DQ'ed!

Don't let the charcoal get to close to the pork butts!!!:razz:

Skip
06-25-2009, 02:21 PM
I think I'll be pulling my charcoal basket out of my cooker around 12:45. Better safe than DQ'ed!

Don't forget to open the cooker door and put a fan in there. Can't have any heat. I almost want to set up a tray with finished pork and put it in my cooker after all the heat is gone. Just to say I did it. :lol::lol::lol:

Brew-B-Q
07-07-2009, 09:52 AM
I've already asked somebody to record it for me:wink:

Soooo, did anybody ask the reps for clarification?

Jorge
07-07-2009, 10:35 AM
Soooo, did anybody ask the reps for clarification?

I don't know. I'd forgotten about it. Someone that was there could probably answer that question.

KC_Bobby
07-07-2009, 11:07 AM
I asked the rep at M'Town about it (he said he was familiar with this thread) and he clearly said it was clearly illegal based on the rules as written.

I don't understand the need. My pork is still hot when I put it in the box.

Jorge
07-07-2009, 11:35 AM
This is probably a question for the BoD to look at. Everybody, thinks their interpretation of the rule as written is right.

While I hate to see the rules, that were intended to be simple and easy to follow, become that focused and narrow it's probably better than pitting neighbor against neighbor.

Scottie
07-07-2009, 12:00 PM
This is probably a question for the BoD to look at. Everybody, thinks their interpretation of the rule as written is right.

While I hate to see the rules, that were intended to be simple and easy to follow, become that focused and narrow it's probably better than pitting neighbor against neighbor.


If I remember, I will try and ask Mike Lake this weekend.

ique
07-07-2009, 12:24 PM
If I remember, I will try and ask Mike Lake this weekend.

I asked Mike this question at a class I took recently and he seemed to think it was illegal to put processed pork back in a cooker.

Scottie
07-07-2009, 12:28 PM
I asked Mike this question at a class I took recently and he seemed to think it was illegal to put processed pork back in a cooker.

The responses that I have received from folks in the know... Their direct quote was "illegal. illegal, illegal!!!!!"..... My thinking is if the reps are afraid to step up here and not respond, as I can understand why they don't or won't do it... That maybe the BOD should address this issue. Si I guess I can ask Mike that too. Although, my understanding is that this BOD meeting they might be a little busy with more pressing issues!!! :roll:

Jacked UP BBQ
07-07-2009, 12:38 PM
like when the next meeting is

Scottie
07-07-2009, 01:02 PM
like when the next meeting is


I was thinking... Which bar they were going to be going to after the meeting... :icon_shy

Of course I am just kidding.... As I respect my leaders... 8-)

CaptTable
07-07-2009, 01:26 PM
Hey, Scottie, sorry we won't be seeing you in Kettering!

Just found this post and saw what it was about and yeah, I think you are right. The Board may have to make a ruling because I would have said "legal" My reasoning is that sauce is being added, then put back on to stay warm, not cook more. Sort of like a holding area.

NOW . . . will it cook more? Guess it depends on the temp of the cooker. I would think if it is the near the temp of the meat, it wouldn't cook more, just hold it. To me it goes back to the honor system, you could cheat and cook it more, but I really don't see how that would help to cook more after saucing.

I guess I may have to go back to Rep school after this:icon_smil.

Phillip

Vince RnQ
07-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Putting sauced pork that has been pulled, sliced, chunked or parted in any way back into a cooker would have the effect of glazing the meat because the cooker is a heat source.

I really don't get the mystery here.

Putting pork that has been parted in any way, shape or form, back onto any kind of heat source is cooking. You can call it whatever else you like but if there's an active heat source in the vessel into which you are placing the meat, it is cooking and that is a violation of the rule.

Skip
07-07-2009, 05:20 PM
....if there's an active heat source in the vessel into which you are placing the meat, it is cooking and that is a violation of the rule.

Again I wish I could be so organized to break down my butts and have time to throw it back in the cooker but I don't. :sad:

Placing a butt in the same cambro/cooler as a brisket is putting meat in a box with an active heat source. Therefore by your definition cooking

Keeping meat warm for turn in is cooking no matter what the heat source following that definition.

Or do you mean a fire tended and maintained at a certain temperature? If my box is shut down and only carrying residual heat from the prior cook is it an active heat source? What makes it different then my brisket and pork butt in the cambro?

I'm not looking to blur the rule but I feel that the current interpretation here is creating a stricter tolerance on a friendly rule. In essence this can't be answered without defining the word cooking. Thats why the reps are shying away.

ique
07-07-2009, 05:48 PM
Putting pork that has been parted in any way, shape or form, back onto any kind of heat source is cooking. You can call it whatever else you like but if there's an active heat source in the vessel into which you are placing the meat, it is cooking and that is a violation of the rule.

Ultimately you are probably correct. But where the confusion comes in is that is clearly NOT what the intention of the rule is. The intent is to keep cooks from cutting off a small tenderloin sized piece of pork and cooking that for the turn in.

There is literally no difference between taking a 1/2 alum of processed pork and putting it in a warm pit vs. putting in a warm cambro. I guess it seems silly that it is illegal (esp. when it is legal with brisket).

Vince RnQ
07-07-2009, 06:20 PM
Placing a butt in the same cambro/cooler as a brisket is putting meat in a box with an active heat source. Therefore by your definition cooking


Well, then I guess just to be safe, anyone who wants to keep their meat warm and be certain of not breaking the rules should just put their meat in a cooler/Cambor with a brisket to keep warm instead of the pit. Looks like you've found the perfect solution.

Vince RnQ
07-07-2009, 06:22 PM
Ultimately you are probably correct. But where the confusion comes in is that is clearly NOT what the intention of the rule is. The intent is to keep cooks from cutting off a small tenderloin sized piece of pork and cooking that for the turn in.

There is literally no difference between taking a 1/2 alum of processed pork and putting it in a warm pit vs. putting in a warm cambro. I guess it seems silly that it is illegal (esp. when it is legal with brisket).


Except for the fact that the rule states that you cannot cook a parted pork butt and there is no such rule for brisket.

Skip
07-07-2009, 07:38 PM
Well, then I guess just to be safe, anyone who wants to keep their meat warm and be certain of not breaking the rules should just put their meat in a cooler/Cambor with a brisket to keep warm instead of the pit. Looks like you've found the perfect solution.

Actually no it is not a solution. As stated the use of a brisket as an "active heat source" in my Cambro I would be in violation of the rule as you interpret it. The presence of an "active heat source" is considered cooking by your definition. If my pork is parted and returned to the cambro I am in violation?

Smoke'n Ice
07-07-2009, 09:13 PM
Regardless of what the intent of the rule is or was, it is superseded by the servsafe rule as listed in the KCBS official rules. I personally do not know of a way to generate a temperature of 140 degrees F in any cambro without the introduction of a heat source. DO YOU? I would offer good odds that the BOD will come down on the side of holding temps must be 140 wheather parted or not. It becomes a legal issue because of food bourn illnesses. By the way, the high holding temperature refers to the air temperature in which the potentially hazardeous material is being held. The time and low end temp refer to the internal temperature of the potentially hazardeous material. The high temp of the reheat refers to the internal temperature.

g) After cooking, all meat:
i) Must be held at 140° F or above OR
ii) Cooked meat shall be cooled as follows:
(1) Within 2 hours from 140° F to 70° F and
(2) Within 4 hours from 70° F to 41° F or less
(3) Meat that is cooked, properly cooled,
and later reheated for hot holding and serving
shall be reheated so that all parts of the food
reach a temperature of at least 165° F for a
minimum of 15 seconds.

Vince RnQ
07-18-2009, 12:27 PM
The KCBS Board of Directors has ruled on the parted pork issue. Here is their statement from the Quick Notes From The Board July 15, 2009 (http://www.kcbs.us/news.php?id=159):

The Board discussed the issue of preparing pork (slicing, pulling, parting etc.) after it has been cooked and putting it back in the smoker with sauce to re-heat. The Board stated this is a violation of the rules.

This should pretty much end any speculation or misinterpretation of that rule.