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Merl
05-14-2009, 07:58 PM
At the last board meeting the issue of a DQ of an entry in which the Reps determined they could not see 6 separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a container, was discussed. (Rule 15) In fact there were 7 portions in the box.

The Board said the rule is clear and when you cannot visibly see 6 separated and identifiable (visible) portions it is a DQ in appearance.

It was discussed that many cooks try to make their ribs look like a single slab. The Board said that was a rule violation.

This advisory was sent to all Contest Reps:

Subject: Six Identifiable (Visible) Pieces (Rule #15)
Question: What do the reps do when six identifiable pieces are not visible?
Opinion: All judges will give a score of 1 in appearance if due diligence is taken and six identifiable pieces can not be seen. All judges score taste and tenderness unless they did not receive a sample and then that judge would give a 1 in all criteria.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009

The Board did not change any rule. It was the duty of the board to determine if rule 15 was ambiguous or confusing, which it is not. This is not a rule change. The Board said follow the existing rules. Many cooks have been allowed in the past to get by in violation of this rule. Please prepare your entry so as to not violate this rule.

Merl

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
05-14-2009, 08:10 PM
I do understand, but it is kinda harsh. like stated there were 7 portions, I think it would be more prudent(sp) to eliminate garnish as it is a meat competition not a "salad contest" JMHO..I feel it would be more important to send out a bulletin sayng..."garnish is not required, please dont score down a box that looks super but doesnt have lettuce". and remove any judge who does not follow the guide line provided..I will now get off my soap box and just say............I wanna go naked!:roll:

MilitantSquatter
05-14-2009, 08:25 PM
I realize nothing is changed per above but still seems silly...

How about just letting the judges select their pieces.. The, if the last judge(s) do not have a piece to select from, then it is clear that pieces are omitted and at that point could be scored down from the original appearance score.

Brewmaster
05-14-2009, 08:33 PM
I think it would be hard to visibly identify if the pieces are separated completely. Some times the judges don't know this till they pull them from the box and two pieces are stuck together.

CajunSmoker
05-14-2009, 08:37 PM
I do understand, but it is kinda harsh. like stated there were 7 portions, I think it would be more prudent(sp) to eliminate garnish as it is a meat competition not a "salad contest" JMHO..I feel it would be more important to send out a bulletin sayng..."garnish is not required, please dont score down a box that looks super but doesnt have lettuce". and remove any judge who does not follow the guide line provided..I will now get off my soap box and just say............I wanna go naked!:roll:


Sorry, but what I understand is it is a BBQ competition. Not a meat comp, not a "salad contest", but a BBQ contest.

BBQ means a lot of different things to different people. If you could turn in a box with six pulled pork sliders with slaw and a tennessee red sauce you would get all 9's on my score sheet, but you probably would get all 2's on someone elses (if that turn in was legal)

I cook some IBCA contests too, and I have to agree that garnish in the box is not a favorite of mine, but since that's the KCBS way...................


















I just let my wife do it for me:icon_blush:

Big George's BBQ
05-14-2009, 08:44 PM
I do understand, but it is kinda harsh. like stated there were 7 portions, I think it would be more prudent(sp) to eliminate garnish as it is a meat competition not a "salad contest" JMHO..I feel it would be more important to send out a bulletin sayng..."garnish is not required, please dont score down a box that looks super but doesnt have lettuce". and remove any judge who does not follow the guide line provided..I will now get off my soap box and just say............I wanna go naked!:roll:

I agree with Sal- with the food not the naked thing

Ford
05-14-2009, 08:55 PM
Subject: Six Identifiable (Visible) Pieces (Rule #15)
Question: What do the reps do when six identifiable pieces are not visible?
Opinion: All judges will give a score of 1 in appearance if due diligence is taken and six identifiable pieces can not be seen. All judges score taste and tenderness unless they did not receive a sample and then that judge would give a 1 in all criteria.

Now any cook worth his or her salt already knows this is the rule and knows that while we try to put 4-6 rib bones back together as close to perfect as we can, there's pretty much always cut lines visible. I've never been able to do a box where they fit back together so well you can't see the line if a rep gets up close and looks.

And FYI most boxs get bounced, giggled, and worse by the runner taking the box to the table. Try doing a box at home people then walk down the driveway and down the block then look at what your ribs look like. Bet it's not exactly the same as when you started.

And I have heard of teams brushing sauce on ribs once in the box and putting a thick coat on and that could maybe hide cut lines.

SaucyWench
05-14-2009, 09:01 PM
Must have missed something in Merl's post stating that garnish disguised the portions?

Nope, he said nothing about garnish, nor did the board, simply reminding competitors that there must be 6 or more visibly identifiable portions in the box. The way I read it, seems this had to do with ribs. Separate them a tad, and there is no issue, with or without garnish.

Ford
05-14-2009, 09:02 PM
I do understand, but it is kinda harsh. like stated there were 7 portions, I think it would be more prudent(sp) to eliminate garnish as it is a meat competition not a "salad contest" JMHO..I feel it would be more important to send out a bulletin sayng..."garnish is not required, please dont score down a box that looks super but doesnt have lettuce". and remove any judge who does not follow the guide line provided..I will now get off my soap box and just say............I wanna go naked!:roll:
So how does eliminating garnish make the pieces identifiable? Wait it's because you can just throw them in and shake up the box because there's no way in an empty box to get the kind of detailed presentations that some cooks do.

Seriously - you want to show the judge 2 boxes and say judge both of them by looking at the meat and don't look at anything else in the box? You judge the appearance of the box. If a judge thinks the one with green looks excellent and the other looks good then the judge should score it that way. Sorry that greens make BBQ look better but it's the way it is.

Told my wife to plant a whole mess of parsley plants this year so I can get top quailty parsley for my boxes:biggrin:

Brewmaster
05-14-2009, 09:08 PM
At the last board meeting the issue of a DQ of an entry in which the Reps determined they could not see 6 separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a container, was discussed. (Rule 15) In fact there were 7 portions in the box.

Merl

Now any cook worth his or her salt already knows this is the rule and knows that while we try to put 4-6 rib bones back together as close to perfect as we can, there's pretty much always cut lines visible. I've never been able to do a box where they fit back together so well you can't see the line if a rep gets up close and looks.

And FYI most boxs get bounced, giggled, and worse by the runner taking the box to the table. Try doing a box at home people then walk down the driveway and down the block then look at what your ribs look like. Bet it's not exactly the same as when you started.

And I have heard of teams brushing sauce on ribs once in the box and putting a thick coat on and that could maybe hide cut lines.


Apparently it can be done.

Jeff_in_KC
05-14-2009, 09:16 PM
Ridiculous! With all the real problems we have, they're debating whether they can see cut lines in ribs or not! What about my sliced brisket? How the hell do they know the fat cap below isn't connecting all the slices, even though they look separate?

butts
05-14-2009, 09:18 PM
What about pork? I f you put pulled pork in the box there is one big pile of pork not six identifiable portions?

KC_Bobby
05-14-2009, 09:21 PM
When I judge, I think ... if I see 6 or more bones, I see 6 (+) identifiable servings. Now if 2 are stuck together ... then they must suffer the wrath.

What about brisket? I'm sure some newbies turn in boxes with 6 slices of brisket placed in a way that it looks like a hunk of meat. While it may not score well anyway - will they get 1's too?

Brewmaster
05-14-2009, 09:21 PM
What about pork? I f you put pulled pork in the box there is one big pile of pork not six identifiable portions?

Here is all of rule #15

15) Each contestant must submit at least six (6)
separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a
container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted
chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as
long as there is enough for six (6) judges. Ribs shall be
turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut, slice, or shake
apart to separate pieces. If there is not enough meat for
each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a
one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will
change the Appearance score to one (1).

nthole
05-14-2009, 09:26 PM
What about pork? I f you put pulled pork in the box there is one big pile of pork not six identifiable portions?

I was just about to say the same thing. A big pile of pork...is that one serving? This is idiocracy. Seriously...this what they are spending our dues on. I think they should've had to call the dq'd team and apologize. What if it LOOKS like six identifiable pieces but when you go to pull them they are still attached? Follow the same frickin' logic the other way, pull pieces, if not enough dq.

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 09:46 PM
This is absolutely nuts! I hate to ask the obvious question, but can't the actual serving determine if there are six portions? If there are six ribs in the box and each judge takes, uh, one, doesn't that mean that there were indeed six identifiable portions in the box?

Likewise, if there is a pile of pork in a box that is enough for 10 samples, isn't that six portions?

I guess the question is, why is this an appearance question in the first place? Why can't it be a rule that stands on its own? Why do they have to be visible portions? What value does that add to the judging or the scoring?

John

Solidkick
05-14-2009, 09:47 PM
If the ribs aren't cooked done enough that the judges can't count the ends of the bones to determine how many there are, I'd question eating them in the first place.

And on the subject of pulled pork....if you fill the box, but judges 1,2,3 and 4 brought their coolers and plan on taking meat home, what is to guarantee judge 5 and 6 will get anything to sample? Think about it.......

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 09:53 PM
And on the subject of pulled pork....if you fill the box, but judges 1,2,3 and 4 brought their coolers and plan on taking meat home, what is to guarantee judge 5 and 6 will get anything to sample? Think about it.......I am thinking about it, and it occurs to me that this is why we have table captains. Someone has to police what a "sample" is. That's just common sense. Using your argument, what's to stop a judge from taking all six identifiable rib or brisket portions?

John

SaucyWench
05-14-2009, 09:55 PM
Seriously, what's the big deal about cutting your ribs or brisket all the way through so each of the 6 judges can get a sample without having to pull it apart? If you don't think you need to, that's your problem, not KCBS's. This rule has not changed, at least since 2001. If you enter a contest and agree to the rules, you shouldn't complain.

A pile of pulled pork is not going to be considered a single serving, and none of the judges I've ever worked with would take 4 out of 6 ribs or slices of brisket just to "take meat home." C'mon, have you really ever seen that?

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 09:59 PM
My problem is with the use of the term "identifiable". That is a subjective and nebulous term. What if one or two judges can't see the rib cut lines? What does "identifiable" mean? All the judges can see them? The majority can see them? The table captain?

As a competition cook, I just don't see how you abide by the letter of this rule without separating your ribs enough to see daylight between them.

Here is a case in point:

http://www.patiodaddiobbq.com/images/food/ribs/20090321RibsPractice_3.jpg

John

Alexa RnQ
05-14-2009, 10:06 PM
There's too much salad in that box. :wink:
But there's also eight ribs.

SaucyWench
05-14-2009, 10:08 PM
My problem is with the use of the term "identifiable". That is a subjective and nebulous term. What if one or two judges can't see the rib cut lines? What does "identifiable" mean? All the judges can see them? The majority can see them? The table captain?

As a competition cook, I just don't see how you abide by the letter of this rule without separating your ribs enough to see daylight between them.

John

First, the judge would point out their concerns to the table captain, then if the TC couldn't make the determination, he/she would go to the reps. Personally, I've never seen it get that far-actually I've never seen this at all, good on all the competitors!

I just think yall are getting upset about something that, if you are diligent, shouldn't be an issue at all, because it's always been in the rules.

BTW, I clearly see 8 ribs in that box, and I'm kinda old with not great eyesight :)

Solidkick
05-14-2009, 10:11 PM
PD....my comment was meant to be ridiculous....just like not being able to see 6 ribs in a box when there was seven....surely everyone can count...if ribs aren't cut through clean, then that judge doesn't get a sample, then your DQ comes in to play...

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:12 PM
There's too much salad in that box. :wink:
But there's also eight ribs.Yeah, it was a craptastic practice box, wasn't it? :oops: Thanks for rubbing it in, though. :wink: :-D

John

KC_Bobby
05-14-2009, 10:13 PM
My problem is with the use of the term "identifiable". That is a subjective and nebulous term. What if one or two judges can't see the rib cut lines? What does "identifiable" mean? All the judges can see them? The majority can see them? The table captain?

As a competition cook, I just don't see how you abide by the letter of this rule without separating your ribs enough to see daylight between them.

John

Well said - the subjectivity is key. Judge if for app as it is 6+ pieces. If it doesn't have 6 when the tray gets passed around, change the app score to a 1.

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:13 PM
PD....my comment was meant to be ridiculous....just like not being able to see 6 ribs in a box when there was seven....surely everyone can count...if ribs aren't cut through clean, then that judge doesn't get a sample, then your DQ comes in to play...OK. Sorry about not initially seeing the sarcasm.

John

JD McGee
05-14-2009, 10:13 PM
Bull-chit...if I have 6 ribs in there...they're gonna see 'em...how can you not! :confused:...Anyone ever seen a 6 inch wide rib? :lol::lol::lol:

Just Pulin' Pork
05-14-2009, 10:13 PM
I bet this may become the biggest thread in Brethern history! There will be alot of people chiming in on this one! Sometimes the KCBS makes things harder then they need to be!

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:15 PM
You know, if this kind of rule-tightening continues, I can very easily see a day in the not too distant future where we all start taking pictures of our boxes for use as a sort of instant replay challenge. Is that a good thing?

John

Alexa RnQ
05-14-2009, 10:16 PM
Yeah, it was a craptastic practice box, wasn't it? :oops: Thanks for rubbing it in, though. :wink: :-D
There could have been a single inflorescence of parsley, and someone would bust your chops because "it's a meat contest". http://www.divaherself.com/funny/shiner.gif

SaucyWench
05-14-2009, 10:16 PM
OK, just out of curiosity, why do you feel the ribs need to be touching? Have you gotten significantly higher scores when they do?

Alexa RnQ
05-14-2009, 10:17 PM
To me, cut rib sides don't improve from air exposure.

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:19 PM
To me, cut rib sides don't improve from air exposure.Bingo! To me it's about maximum heat retention and a natural look. You generally don't get served pre-cut ribs.

John

Solidkick
05-14-2009, 10:20 PM
Where's Scottie!!!!!!!! LOL

SaucyWench
05-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Got it! Thanks

KC_Bobby
05-14-2009, 10:25 PM
You know, if this kind of rule-tightening continues, I can very easily see a day in the not too distant future where we all start taking pictures of our boxes for use as a sort of instant replay challenge. Is that a good thing?

John

I was thinking the same regarding pics.

Personally, ours always seem to have a nick or two on the edges of the slices - sounds like that may be a good thing.

Diva
05-14-2009, 10:27 PM
I haven't read anything but the first post...WTF? That rule has been in place for at LEAST four years. Why was it brought up? Better yet....why was it even posted? It's an established rule, nothings changed, what gives? Gimme a break.

HoDeDo
05-14-2009, 10:29 PM
I realize nothing is changed per above but still seems silly...How about just letting the judges select their pieces.. The, if the last judge(s) do not have a piece to select from, then it is clear that pieces are omitted and at that point could be scored down from the original appearance score.

that is the way it has always been done around here....

I think it would be hard to visibly identify if the pieces are separated completely. Some times the judges don't know this till they pull them from the box and two pieces are stuck together.
Again, the way it has been done around here....

Sorry, but what I understand is it is a BBQ competition. Not a meat comp, not a "salad contest", but a BBQ contest.

BBQ means a lot of different things to different people. If you could turn in a box with six pulled pork sliders with slaw and a tennessee red sauce you would get all 9's on my score sheet, but you probably would get all 2's on someone elses (if that turn in was legal)

I cook some IBCA contests too, and I have to agree that garnish in the box is not a favorite of mine, but since that's the KCBS way................... just let my wife do it for me:icon_blush: Or my wife... if you do it upside-down!!

[quote=SaucyWench;925345]Seriously, what's the big deal about cutting your ribs or brisket all the way through so each of the 6 judges can get a sample without having to pull it apart? If you don't think you need to, that's your problem, not KCBS's. This rule has not changed, at least since 2001. If you enter a contest and agree to the rules, you shouldn't complain.

It has nothing to do with cutting them all the way through. It has to do with them seeing 6 separately. you could have them cut through, but would take 4 out of 6 ribs or slices of brisket just to "take meat home

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:30 PM
Well, I've been putting nothing but a big ol' pile of pulled pork in my box since day one, so this has me concerned. I certainly hope nothing has changed, but apparently something has, or Merl probably wouldn't have brought it to our attention.

John

Plowboy
05-14-2009, 10:33 PM
I haven't read anything but the first post...WTF? That rule has been in place for at LEAST four years. Why was it brought up? Better yet....why was it even posted? It's an established rule, nothings changed, what gives? Gimme a break.

I have to agree.

And for all of you that don't understand the rule or what happens when judges don't get six ribs or how pulled pork is treated... you best get into a CBJ course... FAST!!! I've taken the CBJ course three times. Did refreshers the last two years while helping cook and table captain for them. KCBS let's you audit the classes for free if you are already a CBJ. At least they used to.

I don't see any issue with the rule or with how the BOD ruled on it. Have understood this rule to work this way for a few years now. It ain't rule tightening... its the rules.

Plowboy
05-14-2009, 10:35 PM
Well, I've been putting nothing but a big ol' pile of pulled pork in my box since day one, so this has me concerned. I certainly hope nothing has changed, but apparently something has, or Merl probably wouldn't have brought it to our attention.

John

NOTHING has changed. You actually have hundreds of pieces in the box. You are fine. This exact topic is covered at every CBJ class I've been to.

Jeff_in_KC
05-14-2009, 10:41 PM
I haven't read anything but the first post...WTF? That rule has been in place for at LEAST four years. Why was it brought up? Better yet....why was it even posted? It's an established rule, nothings changed, what gives? Gimme a break.

My concern is that they even needed to discuss it then. If it's the rule, it's the rule. I don't happen to agree though. If I want to make my ribs look like a section of a slab and the lines aren't obviously visible, why should that be wrong? Anyway, just because you can see a slice line does not mean the ribs are all separate and identifiable in the first place.

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:44 PM
NOTHING has changed. You actually have hundreds of pieces in the box. You are fine. This exact topic is covered at every CBJ class I've been to.OK. My question remains. Why did a KCBS board member bring up the subject if it's business as usual? I obviously can't, and don't presume to speak for Merl, but something seems to have raised some concern. That's all I am responding to.

John

Plowboy
05-14-2009, 10:46 PM
My concern is that they even needed to discuss it then. If it's the rule, it's the rule. I don't happen to agree though. If I want to make my ribs look like a section of a slab and the lines aren't obviously visible, why should that be wrong? Anyway, just because you can see a slice line does not mean the ribs are all separate and identifiable in the first place.

Then it comes out in the wash at the end. The requirement is that the judges have to see enough portions for six judges or it is all 1's. Yes, they could ignore portions until all have been passed out, but that isn't the way it is done. Move on, Jeffy-poo. :wink:

Let's just cook, people. We are picking at the BOD for doing the same thing we are doing... picking at the way the contests are run. Garnish, no garnish, six pieces, 8 pieces, judges with coolers... I just want to cook competitive BBQ. Tell me what the rules are and lets get it on!!!! :wink:

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 10:50 PM
And I quote...

"It was discussed that many cooks try to make their ribs look like a single slab. The Board said that was a rule violation."

Nobody here does the "make it look like a slab" thang?

John

P.S. And lest we forget the "KCBS rule 15, every cook must read" thread title?

Jeff_in_KC
05-14-2009, 10:50 PM
Then it comes out in the wash at the end. The requirement is that the judges have to see enough portions for six judges or it is all 1's. Yes, they could ignore portions until all have been passed out, but that isn't the way it is done. Move on, Jeffy-poo. :wink:

Let's just cook, people. We are picking at the BOD for doing the same thing we are doing... picking at the way the contests are run. Garnish, no garnish, six pieces, 8 pieces, judges with coolers... I just want to cook competitive BBQ. Tell me what the rules are and lets get it on!!!! :wink:

OK... moved on... now I'm enthralled with the contest scoring mathematics thread. It's giving me a farkin' headache! :lol: But I think I've got it figured out on it's simplest, most basic level: ink money saving! :cool:

Smokin Mike
05-14-2009, 10:51 PM
OK. My question remains. Why did a KCBS board member bring up the subject if it's business as usual? I obviously can't, and don't presume to speak for Merl, but something seems to have raised some concern. That's all I am responding to.

John

beats me too, but I have (speaking only doing 2 comps) made my turn in box look like a single slab, because that is what I used.

Alexa RnQ
05-14-2009, 10:51 PM
Nobody here does the "make it look like a slab" thang?

To be honest, we're lucky if we can get them to look like they came off the same kind of animal.

Plowboy
05-14-2009, 10:56 PM
And I quote...

"It was discussed that many cooks try to make their ribs look like a single slab. The Board said that was a rule violation."

Nobody here does the "make it look like a slab" thang?

John

http://plowboysbbq.com///mnt/w0511/d40/s41/a000u8ap/www/plowboysbbq///wp-content/uploads/2008/07/burlington%202008%20bbq%20grand%20champion%20023%2 0%5B800x600%5D%20%28Custom%29.JPG

I like to present them as coming from one slab, but I think it would be hard to make look like an uncut slab. Apparently, it can be done. That's a lot of hard work for a DQ.

"There's a little black spot on my ribs today."

Plowboy
05-14-2009, 10:57 PM
To be honest, we're lucky if we can get them to look like they came off the same kind of animal.

You kill me!

Merl
05-14-2009, 11:02 PM
http://plowboysbbq.com///mnt/w0511/d40/s41/a000u8ap/www/plowboysbbq///wp-content/uploads/2008/07/burlington%202008%20bbq%20grand%20champion%20023%2 0%5B800x600%5D%20%28Custom%29.JPG

I like to present them as coming from one slab, but I think it would be hard to make look like an uncut slab. Apparently, it can be done. That's a lot of hard work for a DQ.

"There's a little black spot on my ribs today."

More sauce, molasses and honey will do it for you.
Merl

PatioDaddio
05-14-2009, 11:03 PM
I'll just lie low and hope that Merl expounds on what, if anything, has changed.

John

P.S. Alexa, I'm not feelin' sorry for you and Vince, if'n you know what I mean. :-D

Ford
05-15-2009, 04:43 AM
My problem is with the use of the term "identifiable". That is a subjective and nebulous term. What if one or two judges can't see the rib cut lines? What does "identifiable" mean? All the judges can see them? The majority can see them? The table captain?

As a competition cook, I just don't see how you abide by the letter of this rule without separating your ribs enough to see daylight between them.

Here is a case in point:

http://www.patiodaddiobbq.com/images/food/ribs/20090321RibsPractice_3.jpg

John
I clearly see the cut lines and there are 8 pieces in that box per rule 15 it's legal.

Bigdog
05-15-2009, 06:01 AM
I clearly see the cut lines and there are 8 pieces in that box per rule 15 it's legal.

I'm sorry but I do not see 8 cut lines here, and it is certainly not "clear."

blues_n_cues
05-15-2009, 07:37 AM
i see 6 in that box.

QDoc
05-15-2009, 08:37 AM
My concern is that they even needed to discuss it then. If it's the rule, it's the rule. I don't happen to agree though. If I want to make my ribs look like a section of a slab and the lines aren't obviously visible, why should that be wrong? Anyway, just because you can see a slice line does not mean the ribs are all separate and identifiable in the first place. I think it was explained very well. Merl stated many reps overlooked the rule at times and allowed some boxes which did not clearly show six pieces. This announcement is to notify cooks of the intention to enforce the rule as written. Personal opinions should not be a factor unless as a KCBS CBJ a person wants to campaign for the board and change the rules. But, you already answered your question about why submitting ribs that appear to be a slab section. It's not the rule.:roll::-D

Diva
05-15-2009, 08:43 AM
http://plowboysbbq.com///mnt/w0511/d40/s41/a000u8ap/www/plowboysbbq///wp-content/uploads/2008/07/burlington%202008%20bbq%20grand%20champion%20023%2 0%5B800x600%5D%20%28Custom%29.JPG

I like to present them as coming from one slab, but I think it would be hard to make look like an uncut slab. Apparently, it can be done. That's a lot of hard work for a DQ.

"There's a little black spot on my ribs today."

More sauce, molasses and honey will do it for you.
Merl

LMFAO! King of Pain. :roll:

Plowboy
05-15-2009, 08:54 AM
LMFAO! King of Pain. :roll:

The black spot is a long running joke between Lil Bit and me. I was pissed about the black grease spot on these ribs and Burlington last year... and they placed 1st. :biggrin:

bayoustylebbq
05-15-2009, 09:25 AM
My concern is that they even needed to discuss it then. If it's the rule, it's the rule. I don't happen to agree though. If I want to make my ribs look like a section of a slab and the lines aren't obviously visible, why should that be wrong? Anyway, just because you can see a slice line does not mean the ribs are all separate and identifiable in the first place.


I know this horse is already dead... But,:confused:

Why did the rule clarification even come up? I try and turn my ribs in as if they would look like a slab. The rules are clear on this matter and I have never thought about it before this. My concern is this: If the BOD is now going to "re"inforce this rule, are they going to take it to an extreme? What I mean is; are they going to DQ people because you can not clearly see cut lines in my presentation? (devil's advocate:icon_devil)

Jacked UP BBQ
05-15-2009, 09:36 AM
I will stick with my presentation and take the risk.

KC_Bobby
05-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Why did the rule clarification even come up? I try and turn my ribs in as if they would look like a slab. The rules are clear on this matter and I have never thought about it before this. My concern is this: If the BOD is now going to "re"inforce this rule, are they going to take it to an extreme? What I mean is; are they going to DQ people because you can not clearly see cut lines in my presentation? (devil's advocate:icon_devil)

I wondered this too. Did a team recently get DQ'd because their turn in didn't look to have 6 samples - but actually did?

bayoustylebbq
05-15-2009, 09:56 AM
I wondered this too. Did a team recently get DQ'd because their turn in didn't look to have 6 samples - but actually did?


I have heard of someone using 2 ribs to "prop" up his slab in the box... Thus causing the judges to not be able to see that there are indeed 7 ribs in the box... If this is the case, shame on them! But, I still don't understand why there needs to be an "enforcement' on the existing rule?!? :confused: This to me... opens a BIG OL CAN OF WORMS!

Double D's BBQ
05-15-2009, 10:02 AM
The black spot is a long running joke between Lil Bit and me. I was pissed about the black grease spot on these ribs and Burlington last year... and they placed 1st. :biggrin:

I clearly see two black spots! Thanks to your clearly defined cuts!:-D

Double D's BBQ
05-15-2009, 10:05 AM
I demand eye tests for all KCBS judges before each and every contest!

Must be correctable to 20-20 or they are disqualified!

Fair is Fair!

rbinms33
05-15-2009, 10:06 AM
I wondered this too. Did a team recently get DQ'd because their turn in didn't look to have 6 samples - but actually did?

I was wondering the same thing. If a team did get a DQ then a general description of that box would probably answer a lot of questions.

If it was 5 ribs on top of 1 and only the 5 were visible, while I would feel bad about it, I could understand why it was DQ'd. But if I was judging and a box like the one below came across and was DQ'd, I'd have to question that. At the least, I'd have to show the judge that couldn't see 8 ribs in the box how I can tell.



http://www.patiodaddiobbq.com/images/food/ribs/20090321RibsPractice_3.jpg

bayoustylebbq
05-15-2009, 10:23 AM
But if I was judging and a box like the one below came across and was DQ'd, I'd have to question that. At the least, I'd have to show the judge that couldn't see 8 ribs in the box how I can tell.

Your are right... but after you found out you were DQed... it's too late!

ModelMaker
05-15-2009, 12:06 PM
I was wondering the same thing. If a team did get a DQ then a general description of that box would probably answer a lot of questions.

If it was 5 ribs on top of 1 and only the 5 were visible, while I would feel bad about it, I could understand why it was DQ'd. But if I was judging and a box like the one below came across and was DQ'd, I'd have to question that. At the least, I'd have to show the judge that couldn't see 8 ribs in the box how I can tell.

Me, I see 5 ribs in that box. Here is your problem....
ModelMaker

Dale P
05-15-2009, 02:22 PM
I can see 8 but my eyes arent cross eyed yet.

Later on tonight I plan on seeing 16.:shock:

Jacked UP BBQ
05-15-2009, 02:24 PM
If you don't see eight, please do not judge, only compete where I do!!!!:):):):):):)

HoDeDo
05-15-2009, 03:35 PM
The black spot is a long running joke between Lil Bit and me. I was pissed about the black grease spot on these ribs and Burlington last year... and they placed 1st. :biggrin:

He didnt like the spot... and I did. I think it gave them character!! You can see who was right :twisted:

Coz
05-15-2009, 05:54 PM
To be honest, we're lucky if we can get them to look like they came off the same kind of animal.


so it not just me that has this problem :icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush::icon_blush::i con_blush::icon_blush:

CajunSmoker
05-15-2009, 06:25 PM
He didnt like the spot... and I did. I think it gave them character!! You can see who was right :twisted:


I just think it's sweet that he's calling you "lil bit" now:biggrin: I bet there's a story behind that:icon_blush: (and possibly a bottle of Grey Goose):-D

watertowerbbq
05-15-2009, 09:13 PM
i see 8

smoke-n-my-i's
05-16-2009, 06:37 PM
At the last board meeting the issue of a DQ of an entry in which the Reps determined they could not see 6 separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a container, was discussed. (Rule 15) In fact there were 7 portions in the box.

The Board said the rule is clear and when you cannot visibly see 6 separated and identifiable (visible) portions it is a DQ in appearance.

It was discussed that many cooks try to make their ribs look like a single slab. The Board said that was a rule violation.

This advisory was sent to all Contest Reps:

Subject: Six Identifiable (Visible) Pieces (Rule #15)
Question: What do the reps do when six identifiable pieces are not visible?
Opinion: All judges will give a score of 1 in appearance if due diligence is taken and six identifiable pieces can not be seen. All judges score taste and tenderness unless they did not receive a sample and then that judge would give a 1 in all criteria.
Approved by KCBS Board of Directors, May 12, 2009

The Board did not change any rule. It was the duty of the board to determine if rule 15 was ambiguous or confusing, which it is not. This is not a rule change. The Board said follow the existing rules. Many cooks have been allowed in the past to get by in violation of this rule. Please prepare your entry so as to not violate this rule.

Merl

Here is all of rule #15

15) Each contestant must submit at least six (6)
separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a
container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted
chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as
long as there is enough for six (6) judges. Ribs shall be
turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut, slice, or shake
apart to separate pieces. If there is not enough meat for
each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a
one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will
change the Appearance score to one (1).

So, are we talking about how they look, appearance, or how many is actually in the box? It does say enough for six (6) judges. So, if we are talking appearance, that is HOW DO THEY LOOK..... now when it come to taking the sample to judge for taste and tenderness, then there better be 6 portions... or like the rule says, then the judge/judges that do not get a sample will score a 1 for appearance...

So, if they look fantastic, have a score of 9 from all the judges, but only 4 pieces come out of the box, then they should score down... not from just looking at it. Just my opinion.... and that is what I read into rule 15.

Bill

PatioDaddio
05-16-2009, 08:38 PM
What's wrong with this wording? The only differences are the edited first sentence, and the addition of the last sentence.

15) Each contestant must submit at least six (6) portions of meat in the turn-in container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as long as there is enough for six (6) judges. Ribs shall be turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut, slice, or shake apart to separate pieces. If there is not enough meat for each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will change the Appearance score to one (1). In the case of a disputed portion, the table captain will make the final determination.

John

butts
05-17-2009, 07:15 PM
Here is all of rule #15

15) Each contestant must submit at least six (6)
separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a
container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted
chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as
long as there is enough for six (6) judges. Ribs shall be
turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut, slice, or shake
apart to separate pieces. If there is not enough meat for
each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a
one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will
change the Appearance score to one (1).

Thanks...that expains the pulled pork thing.:roll:

Gary in Va
05-17-2009, 07:16 PM
Here is all of rule #15

15) Each contestant must submit at least six (6)
separated and identifiable (visible) portions of meat in a
container. Chicken, pork and brisket may be submitted
chopped, pulled, sliced, or diced as the cook sees fit, as
long as there is enough for six (6) judges. Ribs shall be
turned in bone-in. Judges may not cut, slice, or shake
apart to separate pieces. If there is not enough meat for
each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a
one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will
change the Appearance score to one (1).

what if one judge is a big eater and decides that that pile of pork is just about right for him and takes the whole pile as his serving. there is no definition of what the size of the serving should be.

not likely... but it's an arguement.

butts
05-17-2009, 07:27 PM
what if one judge is a big eater and decides that that pile of pork is just about right for him and takes the whole pile as his serving. there is no definition of what the size of the serving should be.

not likely... but it's an arguement.

Good point, but could the judges get that much pork on the scoring card? I would hope that the table captains would also keep this from happening.:confused::confused::confused:

U2CANQUE
05-17-2009, 07:51 PM
now that makes sense....after the cooks meeting the other night I was wondering why it was stated over and over, clarified, and questioned, and re-clarified.....can see how that could alter some presentation some......

Scottie
05-18-2009, 09:53 AM
Where's Scottie!!!!!!!! LOL


Here is what I did, to cover my butt.... I personally spoke with the reps, to make sure I knew what they considered DQ's for ribs. I explained my entry in detail and they stated that would not be a DQ. I also took a picture of my box prior to me turning it in...

Gosh, I'd post the picture, but I can't seem to figure out how to get it off my cell phone for you all.... :roll:

Alexa RnQ
05-18-2009, 10:24 AM
You can send it to my cell phone though. It'll be safe, because I don't know how to work the thing.

ihbobry
05-18-2009, 11:15 AM
When a DQ happens the judges and reps should be required to take a photo. I think it would help with the review of such matters, fine tune the judging, and occasionally if such was shared with the masses we all could learn something.

Solidkick
05-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Here is what I did, to cover my butt.... I personally spoke with the reps, to make sure I knew what they considered DQ's for ribs. I explained my entry in detail and they stated that would not be a DQ. I also took a picture of my box prior to me turning it in...

Gosh, I'd post the picture, but I can't seem to figure out how to get it off my cell phone for you all.... :roll:
Thanks Scottie! I believe there will be a lot more teams taking the same action you did this weekend. I usually have someone else from our team go to the cook's meeting, but I may have to start going myself.

Scottie
05-18-2009, 12:51 PM
Honestly, I had thought about bringing it up at the cooks meeting, but decided to ask one on one with the rep... I had a feeling that it might of turned into a mess at the cooks meeting with Q & A....

if this is going to be an issue, then maybe the Reps should make a mention of it at the meeting? As this seems like a rule that is left up to the Rep to make a determination...

Divemaster
05-18-2009, 12:59 PM
While I can see the need for rule 15 where, as discussed before there are only 4 ribs showing, I would have a problem if I were to get say 8 or even 9 ribs in and they DQ'd me for not having 'six identifiable pieces'.

We have always taken pictures of each of our boxes for two reasons. The first is because for some reason I can pick up on the little things better from a picture than the box sitting in front of me. Second, as a record if and when we seem to do it right. We'll add a third reason, backup...

early mornin' smokin'
05-18-2009, 01:25 PM
as far as ive understood, 6 seperate identifiable portions at least, for each category. Pork has always confused me, but we havent got dq'ed yet. Just dont skimp when it comes to your box and you should be fine.

bayoustylebbq
05-18-2009, 01:47 PM
If there is not enough meat for
each judge to sample, the shorted judge(s) will score a
one (1) on all criteria, and the judges having samples will
change the Appearance score to one (1).


And this is why the confusion has started... The appearance score should be changed, only after the judge(s) who were shorted the samples to verify there was enough samples in the box. To DQ a sample before (just on appearence) is WRONG, JMHO...:confused:

KC_Bobby
05-18-2009, 01:56 PM
When a DQ happens the judges and reps should be required to take a photo. I think it would help with the review of such matters, fine tune the judging, and occasionally if such was shared with the masses we all could learn something.

While I agree with the logic and principle of your recommendation, I see it opening a whole new can of worms. The lighting, the resolution, the angle, etc.

Is the issue with stacking 4 on 4 (or more) as a whole or some teams that stack 4/5 on 4/5 and nearly cover up the bottom row?

If the issue is that some teams practically cover up the bottom row, then I believe that this rule being brought up is just. If it's the mere fact that more teams are doing it and some reps/judges have a hard time determining the number of ribs in a box (no matter how they are displayed), I think common sense should come into play and they should count bone ends. 6 or more, judge on appearance as it's a legal entry.

Then if 6 individual pieces are not provided, then go back and change the app number to 1 and proceed as normal. It's a simple process to lower the scores if needed compared to finding out later that the entry was legal.

OK, all that said (and if the process) - I could see a team turn in 6 cut ribs on the bottom row and just put a half rack up top without cuts - yeah, that should be a DQ.

j-dog
05-18-2009, 05:47 PM
When I judged the other day, one entry was an incompletely sliced brisket, which was visibly cut incompletely. However, it was so well done that the slices broke off when we picked the up, leaving the uncut portion behind. There was enough for all 6 judges, with the uncut portion left behind looking much like a partially used book of matches.

No one DQ'd it but .... Maybe it should have been under the current rule?

Balls Casten
05-19-2009, 08:31 AM
We took the Lotta BS class last november and Dan from Daniel's Bar-B-Que was helping. They spoke of him being DQ'd once because you could not see the cuts in his rib entry. There were six ribs there but they "looked" like an uncut half slab.

smoke showin'
05-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Are we BBQn or are we doing photo shoots . Let's cook and tel the judges to lighten up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BogsBBQ
05-19-2009, 08:30 PM
The judges aren't responsible for DQing entries.

Bastey Boy
05-20-2009, 10:22 AM
Awright...here's a whole new can of worms...

What the heck is "Sculpting"? :confused:

ducks and hides

ihbobry
05-20-2009, 10:52 AM
The judges aren't responsible for DQing entries.

They are if they flag the reps down. I was next to a guy judging in CT last year and he was looking for stuff to dq on. I mean really looking. (whole other thread)

Also, I disagree with the statement that photos and lighting/resolution etc. would be an issue. Take a picture of what the problem is and then an overall. There surely will be 10-20 camera phones available. And then USE the photos to teach or better yet reinforce, to other reps what is right and what is wrong to DQ on. (after all appeals are finished.)

Pretty simple quality control measure for KCBS to implement. And maybe one of those photos gets posted once in a while to let the competitors know what's what as well.

This would also let reps know what the latest trends may be. Saving confusion and hard feelings on a DQ.