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beam boys bbq
04-29-2009, 08:22 PM
plow boy and me and jeff brinker when we plug in to an genorator at an contest our ground falts pop all the time

then this weekend brewmaster nate telles me to get ride of the ground and it will stop (it worked i had full power)

didn't know if any others had this problem :rolleyes:

york

Plowboy
04-29-2009, 08:31 PM
I don't know that I'd want to get rid of my ground with my electronics on board.

Gerrit_Boys
04-29-2009, 08:37 PM
This happens because the grounds and the neutrals are tied together (paralleled). If you have an electrical panet in your trailer then they are probably all tied under the same ground bar. Because your trailer panel will always be subfed off of whatever you plug into these should be isolated.

Gerrit_Boys
04-29-2009, 08:38 PM
By the way, getting rid of the ground is never a good idea, it's in there for a reason.

beam boys bbq
04-29-2009, 08:54 PM
have an electriction look at it :icon_blush: and see what the problen is

york

Gerrit_Boys
04-29-2009, 08:59 PM
I'm an electrician, come and cook the contest in Huron, SD in early June and I'll fix it for free!

beam boys bbq
04-29-2009, 09:07 PM
an little to far from st louis

but thanks:-P

River City Smokehouse
04-29-2009, 10:27 PM
Nate is right....We had the same problem in October at Bass Pro in Columbia. I think Nate's dad was having the same issue too.

Brewmaster
04-29-2009, 10:47 PM
Nate is right....We had the same problem in October at Bass Pro in Columbia. I think Nate's dad was having the same issue too.

Well it works in a pinch when you have no other choice.

Big Tom
04-30-2009, 08:34 PM
I had the same problem on a trailer we used to have. The problem that I found was that a neutral and ground wire were connected together in a junction box.

Due to the way the GFCI's work the ground and neutral wires have to be separated.

Ford
05-01-2009, 06:24 AM
I had the same problem on a trailer we used to have. The problem that I found was that a neutral and ground wire were connected together in a junction box.

Due to the way the GFCI's work the ground and neutral wires have to be separated.
It drove me crazy and I finally paid an electrician to fix it. Started with the input to the panel, then the panel, and finally each outlet. Found one where wires were to close together and when plugged into a GFI it would cause a fault. Minor adjustment and no problems since.

For the original poster, don't play with safety. The cost may be higher than you want to pay in the long run.

Brewmaster
05-01-2009, 07:31 AM
First off, I am not an electrician, nor do I claim to know a lot about the subject. But this thread got me thinking about something. Everyone is worried about plugging into an outlet without a ground and they probably do it all the time without realizing it. I have even done it myself without thinking about it. The people who run generators at contests, unless they have a copper rod planted in the ground, are running ungrounded power. I was reading on a couple websites that they recommend 8' of copper rod to ground a generator. I have seen a lot of rigs doing this and wanted to give everyone a heads up.

Cheers,
Nate

paydabill
05-01-2009, 07:37 AM
First off, I am not an electrician, nor do I claim to know a lot about the subject. But this thread got me thinking about something. Everyone is worried about plugging into an outlet without a ground and they probably do it all the time without realizing it. I have even done it myself without thinking about it. The people who run generators at contests, unless they have a copper rod planted in the ground, are running ungrounded power. I was reading on a couple websites that they recommend 8' of copper rod to ground a generator. I have seen a lot of rigs doing this and wanted to give everyone a heads up.

Cheers,
Nate


Actually you are totaly correct - if you are running ot a generator - there is no true ground. Plain in simple. Home generators that are a backup for your house power, will ahve a ground, because the ground is already installed.

Big Mike's BBQ
05-01-2009, 01:23 PM
Nate, I am not an electrician either but I do now that what you said is not entirely accurate. When running a generator you do not have a "ground" connected, that is true. However the purpose of a "ground wire" running from your equipment is to protect you in case something shorts, or you have a faulty neutral wire. In a generator you still have this protection it just goes to the generator instead of the ground rod. That is why people have problems with GFCI's and generators. As stated above GFCI's do not like to have the neutral and grounds connected.

Big Mike's BBQ

pigpen269
05-01-2009, 02:00 PM
I am sort of an electrician, No license but i work with electricity on the job all the time. A GFCI will not work correctly on an ungrounded system and a portable generator is an ungrounded system. So if you are relying on a GFCI in a trailer to save your butt in case something gets wet than you are not completely protected. It may work it may not. You would have to have an external ground rod in the ground and have the ground wires in the panal completely seperate from the neutral wires in order for it to work. If you don't have the ground rod in the ground than nothing is grounded.

jbrink01
05-01-2009, 02:34 PM
So if understand this, and my trailer does trip GCFI outlets, all I have to do is seperate the grounds and nuetrels?

Trainwreck
05-01-2009, 09:05 PM
So if understand this, and my trailer does trip GCFI outlets, all I have to do is seperate the grounds and nuetrels?

Correct.

QDoc
05-02-2009, 10:35 AM
I was reading on a couple websites that they recommend 8' of copper rod to ground a generator. I have seen a lot of rigs doing this and wanted to give everyone a heads up.

does the copper rod actually need to be 8'?
The power boxes at the contests ground wires. Can you hook your generator ground to this ground wire?

Trainwreck
05-02-2009, 01:25 PM
When you are wiring your trailer's you should never put a ground wire and a neutral wire under the same lug. You could put 2-grounds or 2-neutrals under the same lug in your panels but never one of each. When talking about grounding your generators you should be able to check with a RV shop and pick up some grounding stakes. When we ground a house service we pound 2-8FT ground rods (not copper ground rods)(copper is not necessarry for anything you would need) 8-ft apart and connect them to the house service using a #4 bare ground wire. Now obviously this would not work for a contest. I am 95% positive that the RV centers would sell a grounding kit for your generators or even Northern Tool or Grainger may have Pre-made kits available. If anyone has any questions feel free to pm me and I will do my best to answer. And yes I am an electrician.

CajunSmoker
05-02-2009, 01:56 PM
I don't do much electrical work anymore, but I do remember that inside a breaker panel there is a bonding strap that runs between the neutral bar and the ground bar that make them essentially the same. Here is a post from another site that is referring to this bonding strap.

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/12v-diff-between-ground-neutral-panel-5756/

"am, it sounds like your first test (of voltage) is showing that the bonding strap or bar between the neutral and ground buss in the main panel is loose or corroded. there should be a wire, or buss bar here which electrically makes the two bars one in the same.

Be sure that while testing you are using the bar and not the panel can as your ground. this can throw off the test results, as you will not get a good connection at the can (panel enclosure)

from the ground to neutral at the main panel should read in the mili ohm range, with a good meter. zero with a cheeper. reality is that zero ohms does not exist. neither does open load OL. those are just indicators that the measurement is out of the range of the instrement that you are using."



When I was still involved in electrical work this strap was just starting to be used. Some of the panels came with it and some did not. The inspectors were checking for the strap and if it wasn't there we had to run a piece of #4 bare wire fromt he neutral bar to the ground bar. We still were required to hook neutrals to one bar and grounds to the other though. I never could get a good answer as to why the strap was needed or why we had to seperate the neutrals and grounds since they essentially were connected anyway through the strap:confused:

Big Tom
05-02-2009, 04:00 PM
There could also be a screw in the neutral bar that bonds the neutral to the case (ground) of the breaker panel. This is acceptable in residential use but when the panel is being fed through the GFCI of the generator or contest feed will cause the GFCI to detect as a ground fault.

River City Smokehouse
05-03-2009, 08:00 AM
All I know is I carry a three prong to two prong adapter with me know and it's a life saver.

scottyd
05-03-2009, 08:12 AM
All I know is I carry a three prong to two prong adapter with me know and it's a life saver.

this is the only thing that has helped me I have had several electicions look at mine and to no avail it still has problems use the three to two prone adapter and you will not have an issure the dam GFI's are the culprets some are weak and your trailer is always looking for a ground.

I am not very handy but I know this works. so try it.

scottyd
05-03-2009, 08:14 AM
this is the only thing that has helped me I have had several electicions look at mine and to no avail it still has problems use the three to two prone adapter and you will not have an issure the dam GFI's are the culprets some are weak and your trailer is always looking for a ground.

I am not very handy but I know this works. so try it.

My trailer is a S&S built by Ron and this is what I have to do. It works

jbrink01
05-03-2009, 09:55 AM
Ron built mine as well. Fast Eddy said he had the same issue on an S&S. Is Ron still in business, or for that matter alive? I tried to get him a couple times and no answer.

Trucky1008
05-03-2009, 02:33 PM
Ron built mine as well. Fast Eddy said he had the same issue on an S&S. Is Ron still in business, or for that matter alive? I tried to get him a couple times and no answer.

Are you referring to Ron Smith? If so he works for On-Site Fleet Services in Des Moines. You should be able to reach him at (515) 263-0258. I got the contact info from Rod Gray who told me that Ron is still building trailers.

jbrink01
05-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Thanks. His number that I had for S&S didn't work.

Fast Eddy
05-03-2009, 10:13 PM
Seperate the ground and the nueteral. That should solve the problems. It solved mine.

musicmanryann
05-07-2009, 09:34 AM
Are you referring to Ron Smith? If so he works for On-Site Fleet Services in Des Moines. You should be able to reach him at (515) 263-0258. I got the contact info from Rod Gray who told me that Ron is still building trailers.


I have been looking for this info for a while now. Thank you very much!

Smoke'n Ice
05-09-2009, 09:50 PM
GFCI monitor the current balance between the Hot (black) wire and Neutral (white) wire.Typically, if an imbalance of approximately 10 miliamps occurs, it will trip.

What this is really saying is all of the current coming in via the black wire should go out the white wire. If it does not, then it is going to ground some other way. Examples of this are fan motors, auger motors, shorts, humans, etc. It is a safety to prevent electrical shock and possible death. By using a three to two adapter, you are not defeating the GFCI, you are removing the ground path for leakage. Be aware, if you lean on the equipment that you are using the adapter on, you stand a good change of becoming the ground path for leakage and it can hurt you before the GFCI kicks in. :icon_sick

If you provide a ground rod and attach it to your equipment, your GFCI will continue to trip wheather you use the adapter or not.

On the FEC's and Traegers, this leakage is normally the blower motor as they, over time and with use, develope leakage to the metal structure and cause a GFCI trip.

Mack