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motoeric
04-28-2009, 02:13 PM
(Cross posted from another thread)

For the record, I am in favor of aggressively protecting any IP owned by the organization. Unfortunately, if those IP's aren't clearly defined it leaves things open to debate and guess work. As someone who helps with events that are not KCBS sanctioned (as well as ones that are), I'm forced to make assumptions on what would and would not be an infringement of the KCBS's rights.

Are the following considered to be protected IP's by the KCBS?

1) 6 judges to the table.
2) Categories of Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket
3) Categories of Taste, Texture and Appearance
4) The order that the categories are turned in
5) Turn in times
6) The term 'Kansas City Style'
7) The weighting system for scoring
8- The range of values to judge categories on


Thanks,

Eric

Scottie
04-28-2009, 02:17 PM
***** While this is not a legal opinion... ***** :roll:

I do collect a paycheck from a law firm that does do a lot of IP work. So my *guess* would be yes, those are all protected.....

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
04-28-2009, 02:24 PM
(Cross posted from another thread)

For the record, I am in favor of aggressively protecting any IP owned by the organization. Unfortunately, if those IP's aren't clearly defined it leaves things open to debate and guess work. As someone who helps with events that are not KCBS sanctioned (as well as ones that are), I'm forced to make assumptions on what would and would not be an infringement of the KCBS's rights.

Are the following considered to be protected IP's by the KCBS?

1) 6 judges to the table.
2) Categories of Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket
3) Categories of Taste, Texture and Appearance
4) The order that the categories are turned in
5) Turn in times
6) The term 'Kansas City Style'
7) The weighting system for scoring
8- The range of values to judge categories on


Thanks,

Eric

Seems like "Kansas City Style" couldn't be protected.

timzcardz
04-28-2009, 03:02 PM
(Cross posted from another thread)

For the record, I am in favor of aggressively protecting any IP owned by the organization. Unfortunately, if those IP's aren't clearly defined it leaves things open to debate and guess work. As someone who helps with events that are not KCBS sanctioned (as well as ones that are), I'm forced to make assumptions on what would and would not be an infringement of the KCBS's rights.

Are the following considered to be protected IP's by the KCBS?

1) 6 judges to the table.
2) Categories of Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket
3) Categories of Taste, Texture and Appearance
4) The order that the categories are turned in
5) Turn in times
6) The term 'Kansas City Style'
7) The weighting system for scoring
8- The range of values to judge categories on


Thanks,

Eric

1) Olympics better look out! Don't they use 6 judges in Gymnastics?

2) Every BBQ restaurant across the nation is now getting nervous. Don't they all have "Categories of Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket."

3) Of course KCBS is the only organization that can license judging by "Taste, Texture and Appearance." If you want to have any type of food competition, your judges may not see, feel or taste the food. I just set up a competition where the only judging criteria is Smell, and that is now my I.P., so if you want a competition, you better hurry while sound is still avaialble!

4) Sorry, but using random selection the odds of coming up with the same order are 24 to 1. Very doable. Give me a combination and order that is at least a million to 1 and we can start talking about it.

5) I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that KCBS didn't invent time measuring, so I would love to see the court testimony on this one.

6) There may be something to "Kansas City Style." I can honestly say that I have never heard a MLB team say that they were playing a "Kansas City Style" of Basbeball. Maybe because it's protected? [For entertainmnet value only. No offense is intended towards Kansas City Royals fans. They're off to a decent start this season and I wish them the best.]

7) There may be something legitimate to a claim about their weighting system. Unless of course they took it from somewhere else.

8 ) A scoring system of 1 to 9? Yeah, like that's never done before!

Plowboy
04-28-2009, 03:49 PM
Adding to Eric's list...

9) The "definitions" associated with the 1-9 scoring system
10) The actual text of the Rules PDF (It has a Copyright notice on the document)
11) Rules around valid/invalid cuts
12) Garnish rules


I think #7, #8, #9, and #10 could be defended as KCBS IP. Maybe #11. I'm no lawyer, nor do I get a check from a law firm... but I wish I did.

drbbq
04-28-2009, 04:06 PM
You guys really think this is a good place to get the answers to these questions? This just seems like a flogging. (Not that I don't enjoy a good flogging)

motoeric
04-28-2009, 05:32 PM
You guys really think this is a good place to get the answers to these questions? This just seems like a flogging. (Not that I don't enjoy a good flogging)

Where would you suggest we go to get these questions answered?

Eric

drbbq
04-28-2009, 05:42 PM
Well as soon as I say KCBS I'll get hammered so I'm not going to say that.
They're the only ones who could answer at this point but I'd say there's zero chance that they'll answer here.

So I'll suggest that anyone with a dog in the fight gets a lawyer and has him ask KCBS.

CajunSmoker
04-28-2009, 05:48 PM
Well as soon as I say KCBS I'll get hammered so I'm not going to say that.
They're the only ones who could answer at this point but I'd say there's zero chance that they'll answer here.

So I'll suggest that anyone with a dog in the fight gets a lawyer and has him ask KCBS.


Watch out Ray, I think that phrase is the property of Michael Vick now:rolleyes: and he already has his share of lawyers:biggrin:

timzcardz
04-28-2009, 05:58 PM
Eric,

I don't believe that they would ever disclaim ownership of intellectual rights to anything if asked, for to do so would forever preclude them, or any rights owner, from ever claiming intellectual rights over the property.

The standard is to claim the right and demand discontinuance of the alleged infringing use, and then follow through with the legal system filing a law suit if the alleged infringing use persists.

As the accused of the infringing use, one would have the option to cease the alleged infringing use or fight it in court.

Just because one alleges infringement doesn't make it so. But to acknowledge that any single particulr thing was not infringing would be foolhardy at best.

In short, I don't believe that you or anyone else will get answers to those questions unless something finally ends up in court and a judge decides. That is not likely though, for the potential for loss is a big risk for the property rights owner who will most likely prevail through intimidation or reach a very specific settlement without the court making a precedent setting decision.

motoeric
04-30-2009, 05:58 PM
As a heads up:

I sent the questions found here to Merl a few days ago. I haven't heard back yet. I'll let people know when I hear from him. I'll also let people know if I don't hear anything back.

Eric

barbefunkoramaque
04-30-2009, 07:06 PM
This is an intelligent response. I was thinking along the lines of :

KCBS, what a bunch of Farking Morons with this crap...

but alas, I have changed over to a new leaf and have decided not to comment at all. Especially on number 2, 3, 5 and 8. In fact I laugh so hard at 2 AND 5 i have to reach for my inhaler.

So no, you won't here me voicing my opinion as an EX KCBS member from 1996... noooooooo way.

I will say that I think they should own the Kansas City Style... someone has to claim responsibility.



1) Olympics better look out! Don't they use 6 judges in Gymnastics?

2) Every BBQ restaurant across the nation is now getting nervous. Don't they all have "Categories of Chicken, Ribs, Pork and Brisket."

3) Of course KCBS is the only organization that can license judging by "Taste, Texture and Appearance." If you want to have any type of food competition, your judges may not see, feel or taste the food. I just set up a competition where the only judging criteria is Smell, and that is now my I.P., so if you want a competition, you better hurry while sound is still avaialble!

4) Sorry, but using random selection the odds of coming up with the same order are 24 to 1. Very doable. Give me a combination and order that is at least a million to 1 and we can start talking about it.

5) I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that KCBS didn't invent time measuring, so I would love to see the court testimony on this one.

6) There may be something to "Kansas City Style." I can honestly say that I have never heard a MLB team say that they were playing a "Kansas City Style" of Basbeball. Maybe because it's protected? [For entertainmnet value only. No offense is intended towards Kansas City Royals fans. They're off to a decent start this season and I wish them the best.]

7) There may be something legitimate to a claim about their weighting system. Unless of course they took it from somewhere else.

8 ) A scoring system of 1 to 9? Yeah, like that's never done before!

pigmaker23
04-30-2009, 11:09 PM
your not far off the mark

Well as soon as I say KCBS I'll get hammered so I'm not going to say that.
They're the only ones who could answer at this point but I'd say there's zero chance that they'll answer here.

So I'll suggest that anyone with a dog in the fight gets a lawyer and has him ask KCBS.

Merl
05-01-2009, 02:29 PM
As a heads up:

I sent the questions found here to Merl a few days ago. I haven't heard back yet. I'll let people know when I hear from him. I'll also let people know if I don't hear anything back.

Eric

Eric,
I am surprised with this. You have been provided more information than most, (or so I have been told.) Yet you want to bait this issue. You well know as was stated before, I cannot disclaim any IP on behalf of KCBS.

You also know that we would be sued for discussing a personnel matter.

So I guess you got me. I will not be responding to your question at this time.

Merl

motoeric
05-01-2009, 06:02 PM
Eric,
I am surprised with this. You have been provided more information than most, (or so I have been told.) Yet you want to bait this issue. You well know as was stated before, I cannot disclaim any IP on behalf of KCBS.

You also know that we would be sued for discussing a personnel matter.

So I guess you got me. I will not be responding to your question at this time.

Merl

Uhhhhhh, what are you talking about? I haven't asked for any information about personal matters or personnel issues.

The only area that I was asking about were the issues regarding the IP's. I have absolutely NO information about this from any source, regardless of what you have been told.

I understand your inability to give a categorical list of the things that are covered (as others have brought up that any slip-up not mentioning something that you should have would open up a can of worms later), but I was hopeful that you could say 'yes' or 'no' to the direct questions asked.

I'm not trying to 'bait' any issue and I sort of resent the claim that I am. I believe that the questions asked are eminently reasonable for any event organizer that wishes to avoid conflicts with the KCBS and not only do I believe that this is the right place to post those questions, I was directed here by a moderator.

Eric

MilitantSquatter
05-01-2009, 10:12 PM
Seems like the original question posted by Eric was very clear in scope and respectful of the IP concerns that have recently come to the forefront.

I also agree that it doesn't seem unreasonable for organizers of unsanctioned events to understand what may pose issues with KCBS so there is less chance for legal matters to be pursued in relation to how a contest is judged if a contest does not want or cannot afford to pay KCBS a licensing fee. Should a KCBS official not choose to respond in this forum that would also be understandable IMO.

ZILLA
05-01-2009, 10:50 PM
It just blows me away that our "Competition BBQ" hobby has come to this. BBQ as intellectual property, wow. I guess this really makes the case for small organizations.

thillin
05-03-2009, 03:53 PM
It just blows me away that our "Competition BBQ" hobby has come to this. BBQ as intellectual property, wow. I guess this really makes the case for small organizations.

Glad I'm in TX.:biggrin:

nthole
05-03-2009, 05:01 PM
I hope I don't get sued for putting meat onto a cylinderical device with a carbon substance and heating up flesh based animal product for my culinary enjoyment.

:roll:

On topic, I'd imagine that if you put on a contest and only used one of the items mentioned KCBS would be hard pressed to put together a meaningful suit (excluding the blatant use of their copyrighted printed instructions). However, if you used them all...the devil's best lawyer would lose that case. Not sure to what avail though. Once they win they'd then have to prove you somehow damaged them in order to receive compensation.