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QueTPiesBBQ
04-19-2009, 04:34 PM
Does anyone think that getting some form of feedback from the judges would be helpful other than a score? I think it would help get an idea of how your meat actually did. Say you got a 9 in taste from one judge and a 5 in taste from another judge. I figure just a bad score, but feedback would be nice.

Plowboy
04-19-2009, 07:14 PM
KCBS has been experimenting this this for a couple of years now. From what I hear, it hasn't been that helpful.

A team got a card this weekend from a judge in Washington, MO. It said the "Flavor was great, but a little too tender". Score: 8-9-5. So, it was one of the best briskets they'd ever tasted, but it was too tender? To me, that's a little hard to decipher.

QueTPiesBBQ
04-19-2009, 07:22 PM
I agree with you on that one. The last contest we got straight nines from one judge and then got a 8-5-7 from another judge on the same thing. I guess if just matters about what judge you get. Having a hard time figuring out what the judges are looking for, anyone got any ideas?

Smokin' Joe
04-19-2009, 07:36 PM
KCBS has been experimenting this this for a couple of years now. From what I hear, it hasn't been that helpful.

A team got a card this weekend from a judge in Washington, MO. It said the "Flavor was great, but a little too tender". Score: 8-9-5. So, it was one of the best briskets they'd ever tasted, but it was too tender? To me, that's a little hard to decipher.

I can see your point...if I get that card I'm just more frustrated, could be a system to help ID judges that need a bit more training?:icon_shy

nthole
04-19-2009, 07:39 PM
At least it would give you something to work from. Anyway to find out if we had any comment cards from judges at Washington? Even if there is deciphering to be done, on an aggregate it gives you an idea from contest to contest if changes you are making are being noticed.

lunchlady
04-19-2009, 09:32 PM
I am one that thinks that comment cards are a good idea. We had them for an entire season in New England and they do give you some insight, but it may not be what you were hoping for.
Yeah, you are going to have the occasional "no burnt ends' on your pork comment card, but, hey... you know those comments aren't the ones you are looking for.
When contests did use them, they came back with our score sheets.

I'd like to see judges comments on anything that is below average, or totally skewed from the rest of the table.
Not necessarily different cards either, the back of the slip works fine.

oceanpigassassins
04-19-2009, 10:42 PM
Juding is just onething I do not understand. For example dessert we turned in this this weekend in salisbury. Almost all the judges gave us 7 or 8 couple 9's and then 4 5 3 come on. I dont get it if you have all the judges say it's good but then one judge gives you those scores.Maybe they didn't like it, but they should judge it on what is was. I can see if a few judges had low scores but just one come on.

Brewmaster
04-19-2009, 10:46 PM
At least it would give you something to work from. Anyway to find out if we had any comment cards from judges at Washington? Even if there is deciphering to be done, on an aggregate it gives you an idea from contest to contest if changes you are making are being noticed.

It would have been stapled to your score sheet if you got one.

Alexa RnQ
04-19-2009, 11:09 PM
A team got a card this weekend from a judge in Washington, MO. It said the "Flavor was great, but a little too tender". Score: 8-9-5. So, it was one of the best briskets they'd ever tasted, but it was too tender? To me, that's a little hard to decipher.
Could they have been trying to convey that to them it seemed overcooked? That's about the only thing that I could get out of that, but why wouldn't hey have used that word?


We're still puzzling over a "Watery, yet dry" comment.

CivilWarBBQ
04-20-2009, 12:22 AM
KCBS has been experimenting this this for a couple of years now. From what I hear, it hasn't been that helpful.

A team got a card this weekend from a judge in Washington, MO. It said the "Flavor was great, but a little too tender". Score: 8-9-5. So, it was one of the best briskets they'd ever tasted, but it was too tender? To me, that's a little hard to decipher.


It makes perfect sense to me. A good judge does not skew one judging criteria because of the entry's performance in another. This judge was telling you the taste of your entry was tops, but they felt the brisket was overcooked.

You can have terrific flavor in a brisket that is so soft you can't pick up a slice intact, just as you can have a really ugly box that bombs in presentation but scores well in taste and tenderness. Sounds like you got some good feedback on what the judge was thinking. That's the purpose of the feedback cards, to help cooks understand why they got the scores they did, not necessarily for you to agree with the comments.

Chipper
04-20-2009, 06:12 AM
As an experienced chili cook. Comments are allowed in the ICS events. Overall, they are often useless. It's very common to have "too salty" and "not enough salt", "too spicy" and "bland" all for the same chili. I'd think that you could get similar type comments on BBQ. Another problem is they can be downright mean. I've seen "tastes like dog food" which does nothing but drive that cook away from future contests.

QN
04-20-2009, 08:05 AM
Does anyone think that getting some form of feedback from the judges would be helpful other than a score? I think it would help get an idea of how your meat actually did. Say you got a 9 in taste from one judge and a 5 in taste from another judge. I figure just a bad score, but feedback would be nice.

Comment cards are supposed to be available to the judges at every KCBS contest this year. They have had them at every contest I have been to so far in 2009. They are optional though, so there is nothing to require judges to fill them out.

Boss Hog Wild
04-20-2009, 09:16 PM
As a judge I have learned to do the following .. right or wrong. When I do the appearance it is simple... does it look like I want to dive in and absorb every once of it..... or am I going to pass it by in a buffet line. It's that simple..... Take into consideration that I know what the food should look like.

With taste.... it is a matter of personal judgement. I have judged events in different parts of the country and experienced the different flavors used in regions of the country. I love the difference. I don't think there is a set taste.... but my taste buds let me know if I like it or not. And my sheet normally tells me if I left any of it behind.

Tenderness.... tough. KCBS gives us clues in what the tenderness should be. Ribs... leave a mouth impression.... should not fall off the bone.... Brisket... the pull test... if it falls apart in my hand it is overcooked. If I can't pull it apart it is too tough. If it separates after a little pull.... wonderful.

An entry can look like crap..... taste out of this world.... and not meet my tenderness expectations. That's why they have three catagories.

There are bigger issues i have with the scoring process.. but I will save them for another day or another thread.....

Dale P
04-20-2009, 09:43 PM
Comment cards would be great for new teams but those that have cooked a few comps probably already have an idea if something wasnt quite right. I used to think the comment cards were a great idea but after a few comps most already know if something was off. I know that our team does. I guess Im saying that we dont need a Judge telling me that our brisket was bland & tough. I already know that!

I dont think veteran teams need any more help anyhow. :)

CajunSmoker
04-21-2009, 06:18 AM
I got a comment card this weekend that said "rib meat was very difficult to pull off the bone". Score on the comment sheet was a 4. I checked my scores and I didn't have anything below an 8. I took it to the Rep and he said that the individual judge is responsible for putting the correct team # on the card so it gets to the right person. Someone failed to get their card that should have recieved it.

Sledneck
04-21-2009, 06:46 AM
When we had the comment cards here I received a few that were compliments but none from the low scoring judges. I do not need a nice comment from a judge thatg gave me a 999 etc. I think to make it work if a score below 6 is given it must be mandatory to give an explanation in the form of a comment card and thats it.

gmholler
04-21-2009, 08:53 AM
Keep in mind that those comment cards are voluntary, and plenty of judges don't bother with them if their arms are too messy with BBQ sauce (you'd be surprised how some folks "taste" stuff!). I have been asking judges that turn in cards to me with scores lower than a 6 if they wouldn't mind filling out a card and letting the cooker know why they scored the way they did, and please be constructive, and I've only had one occasion where the judge wouldn't comment...but then she wanted to use the restroom before the next category...

Lynn.

rbinms33
05-09-2009, 07:26 PM
I was going to start another post on this but found this one and thought I'd just add to it.

We got our first comment card today. This was from a CBJ and they scored our brisket a 3 on taste. The comment....."Taste was bad". While I appreciate the initiative....we kinda figured that out on our own from the 3 this judge gave us. If it would have been followed up with a "because it was too salty/dry/hot/spicy/sweet" maybe it would have meant something to us but "Taste was bad" is simply an opinion without a reason.

I do think that comment cards can provide useful feedback, but we'll chalk this one up to having a judge that has a significantly different taste profile than his or her peers (which scored it a 8-8-8-9-9 on taste) as it pertains to brisket.

QueTPiesBBQ
05-09-2009, 07:32 PM
I was going to start another post on this but found this one and thought I'd just add to it.

We got our first comment card today. This was from a CBJ and they scored our brisket a 3 on taste. The comment....."Taste was bad". While I appreciate the initiative....we kinda figured that out on our own from the 3 this judge gave us. If it would have been followed up with a "because it was too salty/dry/hot/spicy/sweet" maybe it would have meant something to us but "Taste was bad" is simply an opinion without a reason.

I do think that comment cards can provide useful feedback, but we'll chalk this one up to having a judge that has a significantly different taste profile than his or her peers (which scored it a 8-8-8-9-9 on taste) as it pertains to brisket.


Dang that is wrong. There should be some accountability by the table captain. I mean everyone else scored it pretty good and one judge blows it up with a 3. That is just crazy. I figure the comment cards would be a waste of time. That had to be someone that didn't have a clue, as to the work that is put in cooking for them.

Chris

crd26a
05-09-2009, 08:24 PM
Got a card back today on some ribs that, well to say went south on me, would be a massive understatement. Comment - Ribs were overcooked. Really? I could tell when I cut them........

White Dog BBQ
05-09-2009, 08:53 PM
We once got a comment card from a judge who said he could taste lighter fluid in our ribs. I've never used lighter fluid to light charcoal. Ever. I chalked it up to a judge just trying to show he had a "refined" palate.

Rookie'48
05-09-2009, 09:23 PM
I hear the "lighter fluid" remark about every 3 or 4 contests. There are two things that I know of that will give that foul taste, there may be others, but here are my two:
1) Excessive use of alcohol (JD, Jim Beam, etc.) in the injection, mop or spray.
2) Using green wood chunks or overly wet wood.

Both of these can, and have, left the meat with a "lighter fluid" after taste. By the way, I use either a weed burner or a chimney to start my coals - there ain't none of that chitt in my house!

gmholler
05-10-2009, 09:22 PM
We talked about the "lighter fluid" taste at my table in Ashland, MS this past weekend, and we decided that while it certainly COULD be due to actual lighter fluid used in cooking, this was unlikely and we were probably tasting either "green" wood being used or meat put on the pit before the pit was hot enough. I can see how wet wood might cause it as well - and considering all the rain in Ashland this past weekend, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the cause! But one of the judges said something when we were talking as to where notion of "lighter fluid" came from, at least this go around: she mentioned that at her CBJ class, the teacher said that some cookers use lighter fluid to start their pits - so this is what you're tasting when you taste "lighter fluid". Somehow, I think there was something more to that comment...

glued2it
05-10-2009, 09:42 PM
I was going to start another post on this but found this one and thought I'd just add to it.

We got our first comment card today. This was from a CBJ and they scored our brisket a 3 on taste. The comment....."Taste was bad". While I appreciate the initiative....we kinda figured that out on our own from the 3 this judge gave us. If it would have been followed up with a "because it was too salty/dry/hot/spicy/sweet" maybe it would have meant something to us but "Taste was bad" is simply an opinion without a reason.

I do think that comment cards can provide useful feedback, but we'll chalk this one up to having a judge that has a significantly different taste profile than his or her peers (which scored it a 8-8-8-9-9 on taste) as it pertains to brisket.


That was where I saw the fault with the comment cards. As some of our Friends received there cards it was the same issue.
Elaboration would be helpful. I think the table captains or one of the reps should view the cards and ask for an elaboration before the cards are officially submitted.

stlgreg
05-11-2009, 08:32 AM
Dang that is wrong. There should be some accountability by the table captain. I mean everyone else scored it pretty good and one judge blows it up with a 3. That is just crazy. I figure the comment cards would be a waste of time. That had to be someone that didn't have a clue, as to the work that is put in cooking for them.

Chris

A couple of weeks ago as table captain i was handed a card

Texture is like Mush
Feels like shoe leather.

How something can be mush and shoe leather I will never know!
Showed it to the rep and they just shrugged it off. As the TC I am not going to throw one away. We were closed in enough that I could not confront the judge without all the judges finding out.

Slamdunkpro
05-11-2009, 08:51 AM
The problem with comment cards is that we've become a check box society and comment cards are like an essay question.

Maybe the thing to do is print up comment cards like:

Points were taken off for:

____ overcooked _____Undercooked

____dry _____tough _____greasy

Over / under salted ____________________________

Over / under spiced____________________________

Over / under sweet____________________________

Over / under heat______________________________

Perhaps this would give the judges some kind of framework?

MY IP! I thought of it first:biggrin: for licensing usage contact me directly - All rights reserved - Patent Pending - Copyright 2009:rolleyes:

Divemaster
05-11-2009, 09:15 AM
I spoke to Tonto regarding this very item at the Practice Comp...

I'd gotten a 1st in ribs, 3rd in pork, 4th in chicken, and 10th in brisket, and was wondering where I may have gone wrong...
The problem with comment cards is that we've become a check box society and comment cards are like an essay question.

Maybe the thing to do is print up comment cards like:

Points were taken off for:

____ overcooked _____Undercooked

____dry _____tough _____greasy

Over / under salted ____________________________

Over / under spiced____________________________

Over / under sweet____________________________

Over / under heat______________________________

Perhaps this would give the judges some kind of framework?

MY IP! I thought of it first:biggrin: for licensing usage contact me directly - All rights reserved - Patent Pending - Copyright 2009:rolleyes:

We came up with pretty much the same card in hopes that it would cut down the 'Mush/shoe leather' comments and give us some thing we could work with...

I should note that we talked about it over a week ago and have already applied for the copyright.... Sorry...

swamprb
05-11-2009, 07:54 PM
I judged 2 KCBS comps and filled out comment cards in 2007 and their intention was explained by Jim Minion who presented the Judging class I attended and it is not an easy feat to do with the half hour turn ins and the placemat setting, but I thought it made me more accountable as a Judge and not a "BBQ eater".

The Pacific Northwest BBQ ASSN. (PNWBA) has One hour turn ins and each table entry is judged before before moving onto the next box. Comment cards are an important part of the proccess and "encouraging" comments are stressed. But either way-if I'm cooking or judging they leave me scratching my head in wonderment!

I am for them.

SmokinOkie
05-12-2009, 08:50 AM
For 2009:

Judged a contest, these are the rules as provided by KCBS.

The lighter fluid is talked about. KCBS explains that a lot of smokers might be "oversmoking" and the creosote might give it a taste that less experience people might think is lighter fluid.

The comment cards are ONLY for low scores. KCBS explains not to put comments in for 7,8,9 as those scores are self explainatory (there is a word for each # on the card for the judge to refer to)

The card then is only for low scores, and the judges are supposed to fill it in after all score cards are complete. The reps "usually" check them. The problem with Table captains checking them for validaty is most contest don't have experienced TC's, as they put the CBJ's on the table first.

Russ

Jacked UP BBQ
05-12-2009, 10:22 AM
I say do away with the comment cards. I believe everyone should have to work to learn. This is basically coaching.

Alexa RnQ
05-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Scores are feedback, and the feedback of scoring detail is very important to us as a team. A brief explanation of a low score is simply a bit more detail on the feedback -- it's just giving the cook a direction in which to look, it's not telling them how to fix it. I agree that if comment cards are to be used, a judge should be obligated to leave an explanatory comment on any score lower than a 6 -- and that they should also be used to track patterns of anomalous scoring.

The only problem with a checkbox system is that it should be created from a judge's perspective, and not from a cook's. There are judges who simply don't cook enough to know HOW an entry got to be the way it is -- they can only evaluate the end impression as tough, dry, mushy, etc.