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Citizen Q
04-19-2009, 11:37 AM
1) How much do you pay KCBS to sanction a contest?
2) What does KCBS sanctioning uniquely provide to your contest?
3) How many paid admissions does KCBS sanctioning bring through your gates?

ThomEmery
04-19-2009, 11:51 AM
1) What is it now? $350? plus the per team cost
IBCA is only $25 and $3 per team
2) Some teams prefer to cook KCBS over IBCA
If you can get a high percentage of experienced CBJs
That is very helpful
3) None

Lakeside Smoker
04-19-2009, 12:58 PM
1) How much do you pay KCBS to sanction a contest?
2) What does KCBS sanctioning uniquely provide to your contest?
3) How many paid admissions does KCBS sanctioning bring through your gates?

Up to 49 teams it's $300 plus $12 a team
Over 50 teams it's $450 plus $12 a team

So a 50 team contest would pay $450 + $600 (50 X $12) = $1050
There is also some rep expenses like travel, miles, stuff like that.

I'm not an organizer so your last two questions I can't answer.

G$
04-19-2009, 01:47 PM
3) None

You sure? Adding KCBS sanctioning doesn't bring teams? Or did I misunderstand the question?

Citizen Q
04-19-2009, 03:16 PM
You sure? Adding KCBS sanctioning doesn't bring teams? Or did I misunderstand the question?

Yes, you misunderstood the question. Paid admissions refers to spectators paying to enter the contest and festival grounds.
I'm not concerned with teams that would activiely seek out KCBS sanctioning, let them go to Kansas.

Alexa RnQ
04-19-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm not concerned with teams that would activiely seek out KCBS sanctioning, let them go to Kansas.

Nice.

G$
04-19-2009, 04:21 PM
Yes, you misunderstood the question. Paid admissions refers to spectators paying to enter the contest and festival grounds.
I'm not concerned with teams that would activiely seek out KCBS sanctioning, let them go to Kansas.

1) Then I agree with Thom.
2) As you might guess, the decision weather a 'spectator' will pay to attend a venue has everything to do with what they get for their payment, and little to do with the sanctioning.
3) Not sure what the 'go to Kansas' bit means, but it seems rude at worst and misguided at best. Something to chew on though, contestents, which are required as part of a competition, may very well care if a contest is sanctioned by KCBS.

gb7488
04-19-2009, 04:21 PM
The costs are all correct -
KCBS doesn't bring any people through the gate

I'm a first time Q organizer - Bar•B•Q Pit, Norwalk CT
Our Rep answered lots (and I mean lots) of questions, did a lot of hand holding and was well worth the $300 sanctioning fee. To us there true value is in the competition itself, I've watched them work and they take 90% of the headaches away from us (the organizer) - they also seem to add credibility to a sanctioned event - Fairness, standardization, prize payouts - I'm sure there are other things they add You can download the santioning packet from there website, first couple pages tells it all

IBCA isn't an option in CT, we're using KCBS for BBQ / NEBS for grilling and oth ancillary contests

greg

norwalkbbq.com

Jeff_in_KC
04-19-2009, 05:28 PM
Am I missing something? What's the point of asking about the benefits of KCBS sanctioning then making a comment that you don't care to seek teams who want KCBS sanctioning?? If you're planning a contest with that kind of attitude, I can't wait for the post-event message here wondering why it all failed.

Ford
04-19-2009, 06:44 PM
1) How much do you pay KCBS to sanction a contest?
2) What does KCBS sanctioning uniquely provide to your contest?
3) How many paid admissions does KCBS sanctioning bring through your gates?
Have fun kids. If you want to break away from KCBS and form your own sanctioning body go ahead. If Phil chooese to do the same fine. Lots of BBQ Forums. For the record I support the KCBS although I don't agree with all they are doing. I like this Internet Board but am getting real PO'd about people that throw out comments with no support for them and then run and hide. Don't like KCBS tell us what they did.

What does KCBS bring to cooks - fair and equal rules all the time. With 10 teams you don't have a show and with KCBS you do. That's what organizers understand. No cooks = no show and paid gate. Of course most midwest contests don't charge paid admission. They figure out how to make money and give people a free show.

Without sanctioning it's a popularity contest in some cases. Get IBCA to send reps to sanction your contests or FBA or form your own. Or run for the BOD at KCBS and make changes. But you're losing midwest teams that mey want to go east and compete with this kind of post.

Bentley
04-19-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm not concerned with teams that would activiely seek out KCBS sanctioning, let them go to Kansas.


Yeaaah Baby! My kind of promoter!

eurycea
04-19-2009, 07:17 PM
Paid admissions refers to spectators paying to enter the contest and festival grounds.


I've paid to attend contests as a spectator because I've seen the contest listed on the KCBS calendar.

ThomEmery
04-19-2009, 09:01 PM
I've paid to attend contests as a spectator because I've seen the contest listed on the KCBS calendar.


Ok Brother ........But it couldnt be considered a common thing

What money there is in contests is not at the gate

ThomEmery
04-19-2009, 09:03 PM
Yeaaah Baby! My kind of promoter!


Hey What am I chopped liver
Going to park you five miles away at Stagecoach

lunchlady
04-19-2009, 09:22 PM
you had a good thread goin'...

... then it spontaneously combusted...

most times it's just better to take the high road.

Coz
04-19-2009, 09:31 PM
Friend of yours Michelle?

lunchlady
04-19-2009, 09:47 PM
yes Sean is my friend, but I also have many KC friends that would be real pissed off at a comment like that... I would be mad too if it were the other way around.

everyone has their own .02 and the beauty of this forum is that you get to see what they are, and respond if you want to, or not.

My hope is that, one day, people do not get lumped together simply because of where they live... that is all...

HoDeDo
04-19-2009, 10:09 PM
Yea, why us Kansans... why could he have at least known that KCBS is based in Missouri hehehe

Ok, I'll go to my room now...

I love all you BBQin farkers. And I will see everyone in June and July...

Double D's BBQ
04-20-2009, 02:00 AM
Yes, you misunderstood the question. Paid admissions refers to spectators paying to enter the contest and festival grounds.
I'm not concerned with teams that would activiely seek out KCBS sanctioning, let them go to Kansas.

I'm one of those teams that actively seeks out KCBS sanctioning. You're attitude sounds a little like Maire Antoinette's "Let Them Eat Cake" statement. I typically go out of my way to avoid organizers and their contests that have attitudes such as your own. Thanks goodness that they are few and far between.

MilitantSquatter
04-20-2009, 06:21 AM
Mod Request - Not directed at anyone....

The thread has not gotten out of line (yet) but it could easily head that way. Please be sure to remain on topic within forum rules and keep it civil !!!


Thanks !!

Citizen Q
04-20-2009, 10:32 AM
Thom, Greg and Mike, thank you for your relevant responses. For the rest of you, I am trying to guage my own level of interest in continued involvement in this "sport". I feel that I cannot in good conscience bury my head in the sand, keep my mouth shut and follow blindly amongst the lemmings. I do not go along to get along and I beleieve that no one in this world is above accountability, including the KCBS BOD.
However, I can't help but feel a little bit silly when I consider that BBQ is the subject that is pissing me off right now. If I am going to continue to compete and feel good about it in any way, then I feel that I had better step up my involvement in the affairs of it's governing bodies, but do I have the time or desire to get involved in a BBQ revolution right now? Can there possibly be anything more insignificant that a BBQ revolution? Well, other than a BBQ Hall of Fame?
I have to constantly remind myself, this is BBQ, nothing more than that. It's fun and delicious. Simple fatty masses of meat smothered in sugared tomatoes, vinegar and spices, bathed in smoke and celebrated with beer and shots.
How do cease and desist orders come into play here? INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY?????? What, you stole it first so now it's yours and nobody else is permitted to even think of anything similar? What is the polite way of saying "Go fark yourselves"?

I don't know where the Marie Antionette Bakery is, but I happen to think that Kansas just rolls of the toungue a little bit smoother than Missouri when telling folks where to go, or it could be that Missouri on the whole is a hell of a lot prettier than Kansas, regardless of the placement of Kansas City, take your pick. It has never been my intention to not offend anyone, so your apologies are not neccesary.

71-South
04-20-2009, 12:21 PM
Bye bye.

motoeric
04-20-2009, 12:25 PM
Sean,

So, just to make sure, are we to infer that we are the lemmings in your analogy and you are the loan cry of dissent? The brave soul loudly lamenting the outrages of this nefarious organization?

Let's be clear, this thread was an opportunity to slam the KCBS. Everything else is prevarication.

I've gone on record more than once saying that I'm not in favor of how the KCBS went about their business lately, but I am in full support of their protecting their intellectual properties. Regardless of how silly that may seem to you, there is good reason for it and they may actually have a responsibility to the membership to do so.

It would just be nice if they actually stated what those properties are.

Eric

Citizen Q
04-20-2009, 01:25 PM
Sean,
Let's be clear, this thread was an opportunity to slam the KCBS. Everything else is prevarication.



Eric, this thread was an attempt to gather information from contest organizers as to the value of services presented by KCBS. Two contest organizers and an NEBS board member repsonded with relevant information. Other responses included a complete misunderstanding of an extremely clearly worded question, as well as imagined understandings of inferences to unstated objectives.

Are you a lemming? I don't know, don't really care whether you are or not, but you seem to be in agreement with me on more than one point. Question is, what are you or I going to do about it? Choices are: nothing (lemming), leave competetion BBQ and find something constructive to do such as mow the damn lawn more that 3 times per year, or get involved and be a force of change for the better. All three choices suck most of the fun out of going off for a weekend and cooking with friends, unless you've taken the lemming route and do so with much vigor and pride in your lemmingness.

I didn't come here to slam KCBS, but I certainly won't go out of my way to avoid the opportunity when it presents.

Divemaster
04-20-2009, 01:26 PM
Ya know, this thread started out interesting, to bad it too such a turn....

KCBS remindes me much of our goverment... I may not like all the things they do, but I'm not moving to Canada....

musicmanryann
04-20-2009, 02:05 PM
Ya know, this thread started out interesting, to bad it too such a turn....

KCBS remindes me much of our goverment... I may not like all the things they do, but I'm not moving to Canada....

I couldn't agree more.:wink:

HoDeDo
04-20-2009, 07:23 PM
BBQ is obviously not the intellectual property.... but a process by which you certify judges, sanction events, and capture data from nationwide events to rank teams and the judging process itself are all IP. Patents are granted for processes all the time. Apple has patented "multitouch" screen functionality... Palm had patented a "homescreen" and Microsoft a "Desktop"... so KCBS trying to protect the processes and rules it built is more than fair.

If you dont like what they do, or dont want use thier system... great... use a different one. Develop your own. I have one. My "unsanctioned" contest that I chair annually (Polar Swine) - is 3 catagories, uses a round robin presentation style of judging... so not blind or double blind. It is interactive... and it judges presentation, taste, and texture. There are no garnish rules... but everything in the box will be judged in the taste portion of the scoring. if you put mushrooms in there, they get eaten as part of the scoring...

We typically never have over 20 teams, being outdoors in Feb... but we did have alot of KCBS teams show up. The event I have is not anything I would think would ever sanction. I dont want a KCBS style event.... If it looks and smells like a KCBS event...they have a right to ask you to cease it. If you want to do something original, that isnt using thier style of judging, rules, etc...I'm all for using this forum to figure out how to do that.

So, while you did ask 3 questions initially, most comments since then have been inflamatory at best.

Sledneck
04-20-2009, 07:26 PM
Ya know, this thread started out interesting, to bad it too such a turn....

KCBS remindes me much of our goverment... I may not like all the things they do, but I'm not moving to Canada....I am banned from crossing the Canadian border so I do have that option:biggrin:

HoDeDo
04-20-2009, 07:33 PM
I am banned from crossing the Canadian border so I do have that option:biggrin:

Luckily you aren't banned from crossing the KS border yet... But cooking the GAB might make you a lemming. So please bring your NY Lemming card. :rolleyes: or not.... Just dont forget Toilet paper.:mrgreen:

I say that because just like some people make misstatements about location, as well as relative beauty (Ks is the land of ahhhs, and land of oz.) they also miss a key point about lemmings.... lemming is used in relation to people who go along unquestioningly with popular opinion, with potentially dangerous or fatal consequences. I dont think competitive BBQ is particularly dangerous or fatal...unless you forget the TP.

Bentley
04-20-2009, 07:47 PM
If you want to do something original, that isnt using thier style of judging, rules, etc...

I dont think a style is going to be protected.

I agreed IP is something that a company deserves to have protected. But trying to protect a scoring system that basiclly uses a spread sheet and numbers is a little far fetched. To me it is like saying you cant use numbers, they are our property.

So if I have a scoring system that uses a 1-9 scoring syatem and I judge only taste and tenderness, I am stealing a style...I believe if KCBS has the best system and folks only want to compete under their format so be it. But please dont try and restrict my use of a similar system. If you build a better mouse trap...If not...

Boss Hog Wild
04-20-2009, 08:36 PM
Interesting read... I am an organizer in the UP of Michigan. I am also a KCBS member and a CBJ. The costs are correct. For me, because of where I am, the additional cost to get my reps here is about $700. They are worth every penny. They run the contest, they take the heat, they make the decissions, they do the tabulating.... they make it fair. I know that, and the cooks know it. And that matters to the cooks. I also get all certified judges. They make it fairer... and the cooks know that too. KCBS helps some to promote our event.

I can tell you this... If I was not KCBS sanctioned I would get almost NO teams from outside my area. If I don't have 25 teams to be a qualifier for the Jack and Royal I will only get some teams from outside the area. For me, being a KCBS event gives me a validity in the eyes of teams that may be traveling 200 to 500 miles to compete. Is it all roses and sweet cream.... No... but what is.

We charge an entrance fee. If I relied on people coming through the gate to see q'ers.... well, there would be mothballs in the till. The teams come to compete and cook and share company. We work hard to try to bring the public and the teams together in any way we can. But teams are here to cook - the public is here for fun. For the paying public we have music, a car show, rides and games.... and we sell a lot of beer. We charge an entrace fee to cover all of the overhead. "KCBS" does not bring one dime through the gate. I don't expect them to. The music, the beer, the car show, the rides.... the community event does. The bbq competition is just another jewel in the whole mix. And KCBS helps to make the jewel shine.:biggrin:

HoDeDo
04-20-2009, 08:41 PM
I dont think a style is going to be protected.

I agreed IP is something that a company deserves to have protected. But trying to protect a scoring system that basiclly uses a spread sheet and numbers is a little far fetched. To me it is like saying you cant use numbers, they are our property.

So if I have a scoring system that uses a 1-9 scoring syatem and I judge only taste and tenderness, I am stealing a style...I believe if KCBS has the best system and folks only want to compete under their format so be it. But please dont try and restrict my use of a similar system. If you build a better mouse trap...If not...

Agreed, Scoring 1-9, no big deal... but scoring 1-9, with 1 as a DQ, and the weighting of taste and tenderness as KCBS weights them, etc... I would call all those nuances IP, so use 1-9 but, you hit the nail on the head... build a better mousetrap. Unless you like the KCBS weighting, and the system; It isn't just the scoring, right - it is the fact the scores come from judges who hear the same CD week in and out... many of whom go through certification.. It is the process/rules. The overall program. Than stick with it, if you dont like it, build that better mousetrap :razz: Personally I like my judging method. But, as a competitor, I like the consistency, and structure of the KCBS. I would love to cook an IBCA, or other event style as well.
I have not had the chance to cook one yet, but based on the input of others they have some really cool aspects too. How are the FBA events?