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striped pig
03-24-2009, 08:23 PM
Are there any sancationing bodies that do not allow pre trimming?? I know FBA does and I thought KCBS did but I was told otherwise by a newly certified judge. He also said MIM did not allow pretrimmed meat. ......thanks for helping settle a bet......stan

Big Tom
03-24-2009, 08:36 PM
I don't recall any of the rules for MBN or KCBS saying that the meat can't be trimmed before hand. Haven't done FBA not familiar with their rules, yet. But I do recall reading others talking about pre-trimming before heading to a contest.

Most all specify that the meat cant be seasoned, cured or marinated before being inspected. Some inspectors like to get nit-picky and want to see packaging and labels, but if the contest or sanctioning rules don't specify that, it is hard to enforce.

Big George's BBQ
03-24-2009, 08:40 PM
KCBS allows you to trim/cut your meat. You can not inject, brine, marinade, or put rub on before the meat is inspected

Finney
03-24-2009, 10:04 PM
What Big George said. ^^^

Rookie'48
03-24-2009, 10:08 PM
Are there any sancationing bodies that do not allow pre trimming?? I know FBA does and I thought KCBS did but I was told otherwise by a newly certified judge. He also said MIM did not allow pretrimmed meat. ......thanks for helping settle a bet......stan

KCBS allows you to trim/cut your meat. You can not inject, brine, marinade, or put rub on before the meat is inspected

I think we have the proper ruling from Big George.

TexEx
03-25-2009, 05:38 AM
FBA: All meats must be USDA or state DA inspected and passed. No pre-seasoning, injecting, marinating or cooking of any entry is permitted until after inspection.......

Yes, we look for the USDA or DA inspection stickers.

Alexa RnQ
03-25-2009, 09:01 AM
I thought KCBS did but I was told otherwise by a newly certified judge.
*snort*
The actual section that pertains is:
8. All competition meats shall be inspected by the Official Meat Inspector during the times established by the contest organizer but not prior to the day before judging. Once the competition meat has been inspected, it shall not leave the contest site. Cooking shall not begin until the competition meat has been inspected by the Official Meat Inspector. All competition meat shall start out raw. No pre-seasoned meat is allowed other than manufacturer enhanced or injected products, as shown on label (EXCLUDING (but not limited to): teriyaki, lemon pepper or butter injected). When the contest organizer supplies the meat, the contestant is not required to enter only that meat. (Competition meat not meeting these qualifications shall be disqualified; given a one (1) in all criteria by all six judges).

We've run up against this a time or two, to the point where I now keep a copy of the KCBS rules in our toolkit. PRESEASONED meat is prohibited. Pretrimming is absolutely legal for KCBS. I'm stunned that newly-minted judges are being turned out with this misconception.

Transformer BBQ
03-25-2009, 09:14 AM
*snort*
The actual section that pertains is:


We've run up against this a time or two, to the point where I now keep a copy of the KCBS rules in our toolkit. PRESEASONED meat is prohibited. Pretrimming is absolutely legal for KCBS. I'm stunned that newly-minted judges are being turned out with this misconception.


I was told at my judges class that Burnt Ends were "treats for the judges" and were not to be taken into account when brisket was being judged...

I'd rather have teams get that bad info on meat... and have to spend some time on site trimming than be thinking I'm including some "treats" in my turn in box.

musicmanryann
03-25-2009, 09:15 AM
*snort*
The actual section that pertains is:


We've run up against this a time or two, to the point where I now keep a copy of the KCBS rules in our toolkit. PRESEASONED meat is prohibited. Pretrimming is absolutely legal for KCBS. I'm stunned that newly-minted judges are being turned out with this misconception.

Indeed. Additionally, this rule has absolutely nothing to do with the judging process--the determination being made by the designated meat inspector almost 24 hours prior to judges arriving on the site. During my CBJ class the instructor only informed us the rules that pertained to judging the meat, and told us if we were curious about the rest of the rules that we would be provided with a copy of them.

Diva
03-25-2009, 10:09 AM
I was told at my judges class that Burnt Ends were "treats for the judges" and were not to be taken into account when brisket was being judged...

I'd rather have teams get that bad info on meat... and have to spend some time on site trimming than be thinking I'm including some "treats" in my turn in box.

Hmmmmm....who taught that class and when???? Treats? Good grief :icon_pissed

HeSmellsLikeSmoke
03-25-2009, 10:16 AM
I was told at my judges class that Burnt Ends were "treats for the judges" and were not to be taken into account when brisket was being judged...

I'd rather have teams get that bad info on meat... and have to spend some time on site trimming than be thinking I'm including some "treats" in my turn in box.

I was told in my judging class the opposite. Judge everything in the box and average the scores. Dang, they need to get the teachers singing from the same sheet of music.

U2CANQUE
03-25-2009, 10:19 AM
Hmmmmm....who taught that class and when???? Treats? Good grief :icon_pissed

I was told the same thing when I went through the judging class....un-named place, but, I took it with a grain of salt.....until after, then went to talk to the "teacher" and they stuck with that....but, not to tell stories out of class, they also stated in the class that they have never DQ someone for sculpting at a contest because "can you tell me what team that belongs to?".....:roll:

Transformer BBQ
03-25-2009, 10:21 AM
I was told in my judging class the opposite. Judge everything in the box and average the scores. Dang, they need to get the teachers singing from the same sheet of music.

Class was taught by Linda and Jerry Mullane, so that was coming from a KCBS Board member.

musicmanryann
03-25-2009, 10:37 AM
I was told in my judging class the opposite. Judge everything in the box and average the scores. Dang, they need to get the teachers singing from the same sheet of music.

I very much appreciate the music analogy! :mrgreen: I would say that they should all read from the sheet music arranged by the teacher at my CBJ class. You could tell that he had done it several times--he was very organized, informed, and "did it by the book". Unfortunately I am forgetting his name, but some might call him the Mozart of BBQ judging teachers.:wink:

Diva
03-25-2009, 10:45 AM
I sent this thread to Ed Roith, chairperson of the Certified BBQ Judging Instructors. It's bull****.

I don't know if I'm anal or what, HOWEVER, with all the money that's spent to travel, food, lodging, gas, etc. I would like the people who come out and judge OUR food be on the same damn page. But, hey, maybe that's just me.

I'm pretty pissed about the "treats" deal! Sometimes the weather is horribly hot or horribly cold, rain, snow, sleet, WHATEVER! How much of a "treat" do they think it is to cook in less than stellar conditions???? I'm bent.

musicmanryann
03-25-2009, 11:03 AM
I sent this thread to Ed Roith, chairperson of the Certified BBQ Judging Instructors. It's bull****.

I don't know if I'm anal or what, HOWEVER, with all the money that's spent to travel, food, lodging, gas, etc. I would like the people who come out and judge OUR food be on the same damn page. But, hey, maybe that's just me.

Thanks for doing that.

HBMTN
03-25-2009, 11:38 AM
I too have taken the CBJ classes and they said with burnt ends you do not take away from the score if they are bad but you could add points if they were good.

Lakeside Smoker
03-25-2009, 11:46 AM
I was told at my judges class that Burnt Ends were "treats for the judges" and were not to be taken into account when brisket was being judged...

I too have taken the CBJ classes and they said with burnt ends you do not take away from the score if they are bad but you could add points if they were good.

:eek:

musicmanryann
03-25-2009, 11:49 AM
I was told at my judges class that Burnt Ends were "treats for the judges" and were not to be taken into account when brisket was being judged...

I'd rather have teams get that bad info on meat... and have to spend some time on site trimming than be thinking I'm including some "treats" in my turn in box.

I too have taken the CBJ classes and they said with burnt ends you do not take away from the score if they are bad but you could add points if they were good.

I think this deserves a WTF!:confused:

Diva
03-25-2009, 02:33 PM
I want to know from the people who have taken the CBJ class and the instructors came up with this garbage, WHO gave the class????? Put it out there! They did! Whomever is passing on this crap to new judges is skewing the system before they've even had a chance to go out and judge!

Names. I want names.

Smokin Mike
03-25-2009, 02:39 PM
I want to know from the people who have taken the CBJ class and the instructors came up with this garbage, WHO gave the class????? Put it out there! They did! Whomever is passing on this crap to new judges is skewing the system before they've even had a chance to go out and judge!

Names. I want names.

I took Ed Roth's class, I am 99% sure that he never said anything about the burnt ends except it is allowed in the box

I am 100% positive he did not say they are treats.




EDIT: I noticed that the qoute doesn't match, I didn't edit it!

Diva
03-25-2009, 08:37 PM
People preferred to private message rather than post the cbj instructors, Linda and Jerry Mullane, that taught them burnt ends were a 'treat'.I can only assume that these folks don't want to 'rock the boat'. If that's the case, I completely understand and thank you for sharing this information that I will pass along (without names) to Ed Roith.I find it appalling that a member of the KCBS Board would stray from the teaching format that was implemented by the Board for CBJ instructors. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

MilitantSquatter
03-25-2009, 08:52 PM
I don't know what was shared by Linda and Jerry at other classes, but I've attended two classes taught by the Mullane's in NY (2005 & 2006).. one as a prospective CBJ and the other as a helper that Phil did the cooking for.

In neither case do I recall them saying burnt ends were to be thought of as "treats". I was always operated under the premise that if it's in the box it gets counted as part of the whole with whatever else was in there.

rbinms33
03-25-2009, 08:55 PM
I always operated under the premise that if it's in the box it gets counted as part of the whole with whatever else was in there.

Ditto!

House
03-25-2009, 10:40 PM
In neither case do I recall them saying burnt ends were to be thought of as "treats". I was always operated under the premise that if it's in the box it gets counted as part of the whole with whatever else was in there.

That's exactly what was taught in my class. If it's in the box it's fair game to be judged.