Chicken salad legal at KCBS comps

[Alexa RnQ]

I'm sorry, I had to bring this topic over here because it is just blowing my mind.

In the December 2008 Bullsheet, page 6, Notes from the Board -- under Old/New business:

QUESTIONS CONSIDERED:
Cold chicken salad (no foreign substance) with mayonnaise. Legal.
Chicken thigh deboned, butterflied and put chopped chicken in it. Legal.
Thigh skinless, submit the skin separately. Legal.

I can see the thigh rulings, since all the cook has added is labor to the finished product.

But COLD CHICKEN SALAD WITH MAYO?

Who's going to have the big ones to turn that in?
Mayo standing around on a table in a hot judging tent?

Discuss.

[Dale P]

Not me. I love chicken salad but it isnt BBQ imho.

[River City Smokehouse]

Personally I think the whole thing is retarded. I was unhappy with the direction of the KCBS and didn't re-up my membership in protest. Until I see signs of it moving back in a direction I am satisfied with I won't give them my money. It all stems from the MMA Creative crap.

[BBQ Grail]

Just let the new judges have the warm mayo, that should weed a few out... :twisted: :eek:

[NotleyQue]

KCBS added Mixed Martial Arts. Great now I have to put someone in a choke hold during turn ins.

But back to topic on hand. Chicken salad??????? Maybe ill try that this summer in Victorville, or at the proposed Vegas comp. Nothing like a little 100 degree chicken salad to get peoples stomachs churning.

I wonder if you could use Baconnaise instead of mayonnaise in your chicken salad?


It all stems from the MMA Creative crap.

[Alexa RnQ]

Personally I think the whole thing is retarded. I was unhappy with the direction of the KCBS and didn't re-up my membership in protest. Until I see signs of it moving back in a direction I am satisfied with I won't give them my money. It all stems from the MMA Creative crap.

I don't think this can be directly laid at the feet of the Board. You know somebody TRIED it, that's why it was brought up for ruling. And as the rules now stand there's nothing *specifically prohibiting* it -- who in their right BBQ mind would have thought to prevent such a thing?

While the ruling expresses that it's *technically legal* because there's no direct prohibition, it's another thing entirely to presume that judges will reward that kind of innovation. I am very, very curious to see how that will shake out.

[ThomEmery]

White Sauce Drumettes are legal also
but I wont go back there :)

[arlieque]

I am wondering if this comes from teams trying to push the envelope to win a contest. Seems I remember some team putting flour on there chicken to make it look fried too? The question that comes to mind is this really bbq'ed chicken? I know white sauce has been tried before, no know if it has won though, it has may or salad dresssing in it. Could this be the beginning of the end? Does this become a anything go's contest?

[SaucyWench]

Do they mean cold chopped chicken with sort of mayo "sauce" or real chicken salad with hard boiled eggs, celery, etc?

If they really mean salad, I say wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Not BBQ!

[BBQ Grail]

Me thinks thou worries way to much about the little things.

If someone were to start winning with chicken salad, then I'd start worrying about it.

Someone asked the board a question and they ruled on it. As Diva said, technically it's legal, but that doesn't mean it's going to become accepted practice.

And should someone win the chicken category with chicken salad you'll just be able to blame it on the judges anyway.

[tonto1117]

This is just plain crazy!! STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY. To Larry's point,I don't see this being a big deal till someone starts winning with ckicken salad :roll:.....but it ain't BBQ in my book. But what it does do is set up a dangerous precedent.......

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

I can see a entire board ruling on what constitutes mayonnaise. Does Miracle Whip count? Homemade? They are really opening up a can of worms here.

[SaucyWench]

The only way I see chicken with mayo winning is if every other entry is bloody or burnt to a crisp. But I agree, sets a bad precedent.

[BurntFinger_Jason]

Technically, I agree with the ruling. If the chicken is grilled or smoked, then it's just like any other turn in. Mayo is just an emulsion flavored with whatever you want. If a team chooses this type of sauce to enhance their meat, then they are within the rules. It may not be what most of us would consider traditional BBQ, but it's still within the rules. Now if they start adding veggies or eggs, then thats a whole different story.

[Jorge]

Technically, I agree with the ruling. If the chicken is grilled or smoked, then it's just like any other turn in. Mayo is just an emulsion flavored with whatever you want. If a team chooses this type of sauce to enhance their meat, then they are within the rules. It may not be what most of us would consider traditional BBQ, but it's still within the rules. Now if they start adding veggies or eggs, then thats a whole different story.

Following your logic, veggies or eggs could/should be considered legal depending on the size of the chop. Part of the sauce, would be my arguement if I was turning that in.

I wouldn't do it, but I'd be willing to bet that someone that chose to could make their case if they got to the Rep prior to turn-in and explained what they planned to do.

[HoDeDo]

I can see a entire board ruling on what constitutes mayonnaise. Does Miracle Whip count? Homemade? They are really opening up a can of worms here.

Why would that matter? they dont look at all the ingredients in any other sauce? There are already mayo based sauces/white sauces out there. This is just one other flavor profile; albeit one likely not to do well... but why not let someone roll with it?

[SaucyWench]

The problem with this is, say they put pickle relish in the mayo, and call it sauce. Then they put hard-boiled eggs in also, call it "chunky" sauce. Where's the line?

We're supposed to be judging meat, we are reminded during the judges' meeting at every contest that it's a meat competition, not garnish, not sauce. This won't help the newby judges know what they should be doing at all. Won't help us oldbees either.

Are we next going to get slaw mixed in the sauce on pulled pork and be told it's okay because it's just sauce?

[BurntFinger_Jason]

You'd have to be VERY careful about the size of your dice to use the chunky sauce argument. IMO, if you want to use veggies or eggs for flavor then just puree them into your sauce. That puts you 100% within the rules. I'm not saying that I think it would score well, but grilled/smoked chicken with a complimenting sauce is what we all turn in. A mayo style sauce may be unconventional, but it's still a sauce.

10. Sauce is optional. If used, it shall be applied directly to
the meat and not be pooled or puddled in the container. No
side sauce containers will be permitted in the turn-in
container. Chunky sauce will be allowed. Chunks are to be
no larger than a fine dice, (approximately 1/8 inch cubed).
(Sauce violations shall receive a score of one (1) on
Appearance).

[HoDeDo]

Following your logic, veggies or eggs could/should be considered legal depending on the size of the chop. Part of the sauce, would be my arguement if I was turning that in.

I wouldn't do it, but I'd be willing to bet that someone that chose to could make their case if they got to the Rep prior to turn-in and explained what they planned to do.

I would have to have to agree. Just like sauces that have some tomato or pepper or fruit in them that is part of the "consistency"... this could be the same way. Not sure who would do it.... but if they wanted to, go for it.

[HeSmellsLikeSmoke]

The problem with this is, say they put pickle relish in the mayo, and call it sauce. Then they put hard-boiled eggs in also, call it "chunky" sauce. Where's the line?

And, it would be pretty hard to say no eggs since egg yolks and oil are the basic ingredients of mayonnaise.

[SaucyWench]

Our Bullsheet just got here and, reading the minutes, I'm thinking something has been left out of the report (surprise?)

All I know is what I learned and understand about how I'm supposed to judge *bbq meat*, and I really need to know just what the Board's definition of chicken salad is.

[Jacked UP BBQ]

A lot of people grill their chicken, correct? Grilled chicken salad is great! Sometimes it takes someone to look outside the box and grow some ballzzzzzzzz to win. I know typically standard wins but if it is cooked with the "bbq method" than well people I think it would have to be considered BBQ. If you have a grilled steak at a restaurant and they put a sauce on it other than steak sauce, does that not make it grilled? I say rub that mayo all over it and keep your veggies and additives smaller than an 1/8 inch and go for it!

[SaucyWench]

Yeah, go for it, and if you get DQ'd don't complain!

[Rub]

This is all part of the big picture, which is bbq evolution. Just because a team decides to push the envelope and try something stupid doesn't mean it will score well. There is no way a judge acting under the guise of a CBJ would score a chicken salad entry higher than an average genuine bbq chicken entry (and don't ask the question about what is average genuine bbq chicken, this ain't a courtroom). The salad entry will tank, and the idea will fall by the wayside and be nothing more than a memory before you know it. The LAST thing any bbq contest needs IMO is more and more rules. Let the bad ideas fail on their own, and the good ones succeed.

[backporchbbq]

Personally I love Chicken Salad, but I am not going to turn it in a comp. I personally think it is not BBQ. I doubt it would turn out good results at the end of the day. But I would love to see a team that is daring enough to do it.

[SaucyWench]

So, we change to a bbq meat recipe competition, everybody turns in whatever they want as long as it includes one of the big 4 meats? Isn't that what the Other category is for?

And if the new "recipes" don't get good scores, you can blame the judges....

[Dale P]

This is a fun thread. We get to see what people really think and I am lovin it. Chicken salad for a turn in is more then thinking outside the box, its more like thinking that your chicken is awful and you are desperate.
I was thinking of entering chicken soup but that puddling rule screws that up.
More please!

[SaucyWench]

Thanks, Dale, I was getting a tad too serious about this possible issue.

We're thinking, maybe brisket chili could be next, as long as it was thick, no pooling...

[Dale P]

This is a serious thing, that to me is where common sense isnt being used. Chicken burritos, salad, soup, and dumplings is not BBQ. Plus fighting about it isnt any fun but we can try and laugh at it.

Taylorsville is about 30 minutes from me.

[BurntFinger_Jason]

So, we change to a bbq meat recipe competition, everybody turns in whatever they want as long as it includes one of the big 4 meats? Isn't that what the Other category is for?


Pulled chicken with a thick layer of "traditional" BBQ sauce is legal, so why would pulled chicken with a mayo based bbq sauce be any different?

[SaucyWench]

Pulled chicken with a thick layer of "traditional" BBQ sauce is legal, so why would pulled chicken with a mayo based bbq sauce be any different?

If that's what the board means by chicken salad, fine, no issues.

Where the heck is Merl when we need him?

[Dale P]

You are right Jason but as a cook I wouldnt turn in pulled chicken either. That is a sign that the skin wasnt edible. I know I know judge the meat, but going against great melt in your mouth bite through skin, the pulled will lose everytime. Crispy loses too. We are talking BBQ Chicken folks not anythingchicken.

I like pecans and pineapple in our chicken salad which by the way is awesome.

Porkbutt is in Oldham County over by Spare Lane.

[tonto1117]

If you read further into that ruling, I thought I saw that acceptable garnish will be Chicken in a Biscuit crackers.

Or how about 6 or more hard boiled smoked eggs(de-shelled of course) with some BBQ sauce on them.......bonless, skinless chicken.:rolleyes:

[Bbq Bubba]

Or how about 6 or more hard boiled smoked eggs(de-shelled of course) with some BBQ sauce on them.......bonless, skinless chicken.:rolleyes:

Just needs some parsley!

http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/IGS/IGS396/eggs-egg-box_~IS252-023.jpg

[BBQchef33]

I dont get it..

where is there an issue here???

Pulled chicken, diced chicken, chopped chicken is legal, boned or deboned, white, dark, wings, thighs.. its ALL legal. It always was.

what a cook chooses to sauce it with is the cooks prerogative. As long as its within the rules of sauces. The dice/chopped/fruit/veggie argument is always present, with ALL sauces.. Nothing new there either.

Dreamland BBQ is a mustard based sauce that goes GREAT on chicken.. Pulled or chopped chicken with that on it is outstanding, but I would not turn it in at a contest. Not becase its bad, but i just dont think its what would do well. Same would hold true with mayo. But if a cook is confident enough in his creations.. Why not? Its his entry and his risk(if thats a risk).

Chris lilly(Big Bob Gibson) has the white sauce.. TELL ME, OR HIM, THATS NOT BBQ. Go to this link and look at the chicken recipe.

http://www.bigbobgibsons.com/images/recipes.swf

chit, pulled chicken with homestyle gravy from a jar IS LEGAL... its within the rules.

so if a chef want to chop up some smoked thighs add mayo and turn it in in little piles in the box.. so be it.. its his entry.

Heres another question though.. if I did decide to turn in chopped chicken and mayo, does it have to be 6 individual and 6 identifiable portions, or can it be a pile like pulled pork?

[BBQchef33]

You are right Jason but as a cook I wouldnt turn in pulled chicken either. That is a sign that the skin wasnt edible. I know I know judge the meat, but going against great melt in your mouth bite through skin, the pulled will lose everytime. Crispy loses too. We are talking BBQ Chicken folks not anythingchicken.

I like pecans and pineapple in our chicken salad which by the way is awesome.

Porkbutt is in Oldham County over by Spare Lane.


I humbly disagree..

Assuming that pulled chicken (or brisket fo r that matter) is turned in to cover up a mistake is a disservice to the cook. If you get a box of burnt ends will u score it down because theres no slices or score down if someone turned in slices of the point? Are we assuming the flat was inedible? Maybe the cook just decided the point was the better tasting..

technically, (human nature aside), we're not 'going against' other entries when we turn in our entries.. If i turn in pulled chicken, I expect it not to be judged AGAINST ANYTHING, but to be judged standing alone, on its own merit.

[SaucyWench]

First of all, I still want to know, what is KCBS' definition of chicken salad in this case.

Second, as a judge, I will tell you, if you turn in chopped bbq chicken with gravy on it as your sauce, your scores will be lower, because we are supposed to be judging the meat. Can we see the meat if it's under gravy?

As far as 6 piles of chopped/shredded chicken vs one big pile? Whatever looks right to you, that's your presentation. But most contests, we would have to pick it up with our fingers to get it onto our plates, we don't have serving utensils. Guess also gives a clue as to why you don't want to go "outside the box."

[Dale P]

At the BBQ judging class I took this year the chopped brisket was the best thing I had. So I am wrong. I can admit that my post about bite thru winning everytime is off base. I guess since chicken is our #1 meat I cant see us changing over to the salad/pulled side. But before we learned how to achieve bite thru skin I could have been swayed.

Chicken with gravy is good but you cannot convince me that is BBQ. Legal i guess but BBQ? Chicken ala king?:icon_bugeyed

[SaucyWench]

BFF or Unforgiven?

That's all I'm saying. From here on out I'm just going to watch.

No, just if you are going to compete or judge, you play by the rules you were given. If you don't like those rules, you take your box & go play somewhere else.

Sometimes for us judges, it feels like cooks should just create competitions where you judge each other, because we evidently are too [whatever] to know what good bbq is.

[BBQchef33]

Second, as a judge, I will tell you, if you turn in chopped bbq chicken with gravy on it as your sauce, your scores will be lower, because we are supposed to be judging the meat. Can we see the meat if it's under gravy?


Well, as a judge and a cook, if I screw up and turn in chopped chicken with too much BBQ SAUCE, I face the same risk. I'm not talking about burying the meat under gravy. Pooling, or swimming in anything is going to lower scores whether it be homestyle or headcountry. But that was not my point.

The point is, if someone wants to turn in ANY sauce(mayo based for the purpose of this thread) that is within the rules, they can, and I dont see this this as anything different. I think the board addressed and ruled on a question or situation presented.

if i were judging, and i get pulled or chopped chicken with white sauce, I would judge it on its own merit, without prejudice or assumptions. That is what judges are taught. To judge on its own merit. To not compare entries. To not enter with preconceived notions. Did the chef achieve what he set out to do?. Are the flavors balanced? Are the entries well prepared? In some cases like this one, should I maybe even reward the chef for innovation if he did a good job in balance and or complexity of the flavor profiles?

if i were cooking in the event, i would hope EVERYONE turns in mayo based sauce:eusa_clap:eusa_clap.. my entry would be the sweet and tangy one thats on the darker side. :wink:

[BBQchef33]

Chicken with gravy is good but you cannot convince me that is BBQ. Legal i guess but BBQ? Chicken ala king?:icon_bugeyed

your right... not BBQ.

I was just using it as an example and alternative mindset to the white sauce or mayo based sauces. I wouldn't do it, but unless the rules change, I cant complain if someone else wants to.

i would love to turn dreamland in on pulled/chopped chicken.. just don't have the cajones to do it.

[SaucyWench]

Did the chef achieve what he set out to do?. Should I maybe even reward the chef for innovation if he did a good job in balance and or complexity of the flavor profiles.

Sorry, as I said before, KCBS doesn't do recipe contests. We are trained to judge the meat, and told very succinctly that our own palates are not to be used in judging. We are supposed to judge by KCBS standards on how the meat is cooked, taste & tenderness, without regard to sauces or rubs. This can be almost impossible at times, but a good judge will taste the outside seasonings and sauces, and then get to the "meat of the matter" and see if the meat is done per KCBS standards.

[Dale P]

When the skin on our chicken turns out rubbery we will try the pulled. That to me is a brilliant idea! We have had issues with that before we learned the tricks and didnt pull, I wish we would have. I will store a bottle of dreamland in the trailer and let you know how it does if we fail BBQing the chicken. :)

[The_Kapn]

This is all part of the big picture, which is bbq evolution. Just because a team decides to push the envelope and try something stupid doesn't mean it will score well. There is no way a judge acting under the guise of a CBJ would score a chicken salad entry higher than an average genuine bbq chicken entry (and don't ask the question about what is average genuine bbq chicken, this ain't a courtroom). The salad entry will tank, and the idea will fall by the wayside and be nothing more than a memory before you know it. The LAST thing any bbq contest needs IMO is more and more rules. Let the bad ideas fail on their own, and the good ones succeed.

Rub just saved me a lot of typing. :lol:

Here are my thoughts which will probably piss off everyone.
I really think folks get wound up over nothing.

We see threads all over the Internet bitchin' because thighs are perceived as winning all the time.
Folks will tell you that white meat dries out to quick and will not win.
Folks will tell you that wings have little chance of winning.

Judges (and I are one :lol: ) bitch because all they get are thighs.

So, some team has asked for a clarification about chicken salad--so what?????
If they want to try that, they have my full support and I wish EVERY team I compete against tried it. :lol:

How many of you have entered (or had the chance to judge) Cornish or Kosher chicken?
Both are legal for KCBS.

7. The Four KCBS Meat Categories:
CHICKEN: Chicken includes Cornish Game Hen and
Kosher Chicken.

We tried Cornish leg quarters one time. They looked fine for presentation and had great (or at least goiod) flavor and texture.
We were rewarded with our only DAL ever in 5 years. :oops:

As the rules are written, you can turn in livers, gizzards, and eggs and be legal.
Do you consider them a threat?

So, I have to wonder what is the "threat" or "problem" if someone turns in BBQ chicken which is made into a chicken salad as described?
Does anyone really beleive it will score well?
If not, why FUSS about it!
And all that stuff about "tradition"--it has been beat to death before.

Judges and cooks are looking to cook and judge great BBQ in what ever form it takes or evolves into.

I used to write, approve, and enforce flying regulations where the stakes were a hell of a lot higher than BBQ.
I learned quickly to "Keep it Simple" and the chit will all work out just fine!

JMHO

TIM

[Dale P]

I hope that I am not coming off as POed because Im not upset at all. Just debating and having a few laughs in between. And no I am not worried about chicken & dumplings winning over my bbqed cocks cones.

[BBQchef33]

I hope that I am not coming off as POed because Im not upset at all. Just debating and having a few laughs in between. And no I am not worried about chicken & dumplings winning over my bbqed cocks cones.


Nope.. your ok from here.
But how do u make a dumpling on a pit?


and next batch of chicken u make, shread some thighs and breasts, pour some warm dreamland on it, let it sit for about 10 mins, and serve it on a hot potato bun..

[BBQchef33]

ok.. the debate continues.. and i think this will get split to a different thread, or get combined with the infamous 'judging thread'.


Sorry, as I said before, KCBS doesn't do recipe contests. We are trained to judge the meat, and told very succinctly that our own palates are not to be used in judging. We are supposed to judge by KCBS standards on how the meat is cooked, taste & tenderness, without regard to sauces or rubs. This can be almost impossible at times, but a good judge will taste the outside seasonings and sauces, and then get to the "meat of the matter" and see if the meat is done per KCBS standards.


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Recipe contest?? Dont use your palates? Separate the meat from the seasonings? WTF?

How can u judge without using your palate? :confused::confused:

It is not ones palate being set aside, but ones personal preferences that are not to be used in judging. i.e, a judges dislike for a specific spice, must be set aside when an entry is submitted with this most hated spice. He/she must judge the overall entry for flavor and balance. Do the rubs compliment the meat, are they overpowering? Has the cook archived what he set out to do? Is the meat the star of the entry or is it masked by sauce and rub?

Additionally, we are taught to judge the meat as submitted. That means WITH THE RUBS AND SAUCES as part of the entry, and again, there must be a balance. The meat must shine thru. Both rubs and sauces can overpower meat, and that determination is part of the judging process. We are Not to eliminate the rubs and sauces in the decision, but determine how well the cook has achieved the perfect balance using his 'recipe'. Which BTW, to a BBQ competitor, that recipe is not just a list of seasonings, but includes the meats, seasonings, brines, marinades, woods, smoke layers and temperatures. To us, IT IS A RECIPE CONTEST. A complex recipe with allot of variables and factors.

Under your perception, everyone would be submitting just meat, with no rubs, no sauces. If what your saying is true, "in getting to the meat of the matter" you will never downscore someone for saucing to heavy or having sauces overpower meat.. or I can douse my entry in cayenne and once u get past "tasting the outside seasonings", and get to the meat, if the meat is good your ok with it.

[Bentley]

You are right Jason but as a cook I wouldn't turn in pulled chicken either. That is a sign that the skin wasn't edible.

Don't mean to pick on you, but this is the kind of attitude we need to extinguish from the judging rank! So before you even see it or taste it, if it does not have skin, the skin was not edible and thats why the team is turning it in that way?...Heres the cheap shot, hope you are not a judge!

[BBQchef33]

Your the only person I know that thinks deamland is good! LOL


1 - just on chicken, and we use it for a dipping sauce. Not a glaze.

B - maybe thats why i'm to chicken to turn it in at a contest.

III - I dont have it that often, so when we do, we inhale it.

4 - My daughter drinks it from a cup. :eek:

[Bbq Bubba]

Sorry, as I said before, KCBS doesn't do recipe contests. We are trained to judge the meat, and told very succinctly that our own palates are not to be used in judging. We are supposed to judge by KCBS standards on how the meat is cooked, taste & tenderness, without regard to sauces or rubs. This can be almost impossible at times, but a good judge will taste the outside seasonings and sauces, and then get to the "meat of the matter" and see if the meat is done per KCBS standards.

As a competition cook, these 2 sentences scare me coming from a "master" judge.

You sound like you've learned to become "robotized" as a judge and have too high of an expectation before even opening the box.

[Dale P]

Im a cook first and a new judge. I may not ever judge. You are out of line with your accusation too. I can be fair when sitting at that table and judge the box in front of me whether you believe me or not. Me saying that pulled chicken is a sign that the skin was inedible may be out of line but if its not in the box, how can I score it down. The only way I can score down bad skin is if I taste it.
You are a bad Judge of character throwing accusations like that out for everyone to see. I would make a good Judge. Just ask me..


On edit:
Its Sunday, and I cant quit thinking about making turkey salad.

[Merl]

WOW! I thought everyone spent the day eating turkey and then watching football. Way too much time on some hands. All Brethren are invited to Tulsa to help us finish painting the house, so we can put it up for rent. Food and Beer is included.

The notes in the board are as a result of question posed from a contest. The board said, that pursuant to the current rules, the pulled or chopped chicken with a white sauce (mayo or other) was not illegal. I have read the tread tonight, and did not find anyone who could argue it would be.

I think the real issue is how can we write rules to preserve BBQ. I do not think the entry furthers the goal of competition. But again that is my opinion. If it came to a table I would be required to judge it on its merits and without prejudice.

Our rules have existed for 20 years. We make slight changes to meet challenges. But overall they work well and further excellence in competition. Will there be someone who pushes the envelope? Yes. Will it provide an advantage. Not often, but once in a while it might. Then everyone will do it.

What I am thinking about is how to preserve the spirit of competition BBQ in our rules. Or should I believe that most cooks will not change to chicken salad, so it really does not require a rule change.

Ok back to something important: Sooner Bedlam. Go Boomer Sooner, sooner born and sooner bread and soon I will be sooner dead, go oklahoma go oklahoma, OK U!

Yours in Q
Merl Whitebook

[G$]

I was gonna post why chicken salad was perfectly legal, if the sauce conformed the the rules (fine dice, etc), but Phil beat me to it.

(Not gonna try it though .....)

[KuyasKitchen]

Disclaimer: I am neither a Judge nor a Competitor. Just a long-time Consumer and hopeful someday Pitmaster.

I'll play a little Devil's Advocate here because I think chicken salad is something that belongs AT a BBQ and that it is NOT BBQ. Although, now that I've read this thread, maybe some smoked chicken breast would make some rather tasty chicken salad.

If the rules say it is currently legal, let people put forth their attempts. I have never had a white sauce that compares in taste and depth to a good red sauce or BBQ sauce. They are different animals.

A chicken salad would have to monumentally great in order to compete directly against even a mediocre piece of smoked and sauced chicken. And, with the size rules on extras (like celery and pickles), the chicken salad is greatly handicapped.

So, to summarize:

Is it Q? No.
Is it legal? Yes.
Do you want your competitors to submit it? Absolutely. :twisted:

[BBQchef33]

ok..it seems we all agree that since its legal, let them do it and I for one encourage everyone to submit mayo or white sauces at any contest that Im competing at with you. :mrgreen::wink: :twisted:

I for one MAY bend and say that 'BBQ chicken salad' can be made with a well smoked breast and some good white sauce, and I may even call it

BBQ chicken..........salad. (as opposed to BBQ chicken salad).

Is it BBQ? well.. yeah... in the same form that ABTs are BBQ, or BBQ baked beans are BBQ, or moinkballs are BBQ.

but.. its legal and.... its legal.. so its BBQ, in the context of a contest.



Kuyas, since u said your not a competitor or judge, Heres and FYI for future reference. :cool: RE: this portion of your statement..


A chicken salad would have to monumentally great in order to compete directly against even a mediocre piece of smoked and sauced chicken.



In judging classes your taught that judges are not to compare entries. So when a competitor turns in something out of the norm, they should feel confident that a competent judge will judge that entry on its own merit, with no comparison to any other entry.


That being said, if you turn in chicken salad, the entry will(ok, should not) not be competing directly against anything, be it great, or mediocre. It is judged on its own merits.


again.. just an FYI. :lol:

[SaucyWench]

ok.. the debate continues.. and i think this will get split to a different thread, or get combined with the infamous 'judging thread'.





:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Recipe contest?? Dont use your palates? Separate the meat from the seasonings? WTF?

How can u judge without using your palate? :confused::confused:

It is not ones palate being set aside, but ones personal preferences that are not to be used in judging. i.e, a judges dislike for a specific spice, must be set aside when an entry is submitted with this most hated spice. He/she must judge the overall entry for flavor and balance. Do the rubs compliment the meat, are they overpowering? Has the cook archived what he set out to do? Is the meat the star of the entry or is it masked by sauce and rub?

Additionally, we are taught to judge the meat as submitted. That means WITH THE RUBS AND SAUCES as part of the entry, and again, there must be a balance. The meat must shine thru. Both rubs and sauces can overpower meat, and that determination is part of the judging process. We are Not to eliminate the rubs and sauces in the decision, but determine how well the cook has achieved the perfect balance using his 'recipe'. Which BTW, to a BBQ competitor, that recipe is not just a list of seasonings, but includes the meats, seasonings, brines, marinades, woods, smoke layers and temperatures. To us, IT IS A RECIPE CONTEST. A complex recipe with allot of variables and factors.

Under your perception, everyone would be submitting just meat, with no rubs, no sauces. If what your saying is true, "in getting to the meat of the matter" you will never downscore someone for saucing to heavy or having sauces overpower meat.. or I can douse my entry in cayenne and once u get past "tasting the outside seasonings", and get to the meat, if the meat is good your ok with it.

Actually, you are stating what judges are told to do very well, better than I did. But if the meat isn't good, it doesn't matter what layers you have used to create the final product. Sauce on chicken will mostly be considered in appearance scores, and that will be subjective-some judges will think a thick shiny sauce is great, others will wonder why it's so thick and shiny. Great taste and texture, for judges and cookers alike, should be the most important part.

I've always hated that I, as a thoughtful judge, am thought of as an adversary, instead of one who loves great bbq. Just because I don't have the resources to be able to compete, doesn't mean I don't take my responsibilities as a judge seriously.

[KuyasKitchen]

Kuyas, since u said your not a competitor or judge, Heres and FYI for future reference. :cool: RE: this portion of your statement..

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly, I have much to learn.

[SmokeInDaEye]

This is just plain crazy!! STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY. To Larry's point,I don't see this being a big deal till someone starts winning with ckicken salad :roll:.....but it ain't BBQ in my book. But what it does do is set up a dangerous precedent.......

I'm with Larry and Tonto. Until someone make a killer chicken salad and wins consistently, why worry? If your chicken is all that, then keep doing what you're doing.

[Jacked UP BBQ]

BBQ in my opinion is a cooking method. If the chicken is BBQ'ed than it is bbq, no matter the final product. If chicken is blanched, it is blanched, if it is roasted its roasted, get where I am going with this. A team has a right to turn in whatever they want as long as it is in the guidelines. There are teams that use italian dressing for their meats, does that make it a salad? Or what about steak sauce on a brisket, is that bbq, according to a lot of these posts its not. If it's low and slow, it's bbq to me.

[CivilWarBBQ]

We've turned in pulled chicken on purpose - it tanked.

I agree with the sentiments of Rub, Larry and a few others who have already posted: this is a non-issue. According to the current rules, it is perfectly legal to turn in something resembling chicken salad, just as it is legal to cook a brisket like a pot roast as long as you don't include the carrots and potatoes in the box. Of course neither will have any real chance of scoring well, so why worry about it?

Let people roll the dice and innovate if they want to. Odds are it will only lead to failure, but who knows - maybe the Next Big Thing is still out there waiting to be discovered. After all, if we start trying to define what "real barbecue" is we'll all have to get larger cookers because only whole animals would be allowed.

[Sawdustguy]

I am wondering if this comes from teams trying to push the envelope to win a contest. Seems I remember some team putting flour on there chicken to make it look fried too? The question that comes to mind is this really bbq'ed chicken? I know white sauce has been tried before, no know if it has won though, it has may or salad dresssing in it. Could this be the beginning of the end? Does this become a anything go's contest?

Arlie,

That team was my team. The chicken, even though the skin was dipped in flour to crisp the skin was BBQ in every way. It was smoked and at a later date we even tried our recipe with a bbq sauce. Why are people always looking for the SOS. Where is the creativity in that? Where does it say in the rules that teams should be penalized for trying something new? Where does it say that you must cook thighs or drum sticks and only use a tomato based sauce. If using a white BBQ sauce or trying something new is the beginning of the end, maybe it should end. Just my nickel's worth.

[KuyasKitchen]

Good for you and your team, Sawdustguy, for having the stones to try something different in competition. It's important to try new and strange things. Sometimes they work.

[arlieque]

Arlie,

That team was my team. The chicken, even though the skin was dipped in flour to crisp the skin was BBQ in every way. It was smoked and at a later date we even tried our recipe with a bbq sauce. Why are people always looking for the SOS. Where is the creativity in that? Where does it say in the rules that teams should be penalized for trying something new? Where does it say that you must cook thighs or drum sticks and only use a tomato based sauce. If using a white BBQ sauce or trying something new is the beginning of the end, maybe it should end. Just my nickel's worth.

Nothing wrong with pushing the envelope! I tried white sauce in Alabama one time, didnt do well and it was BBG's too. Guess the chicken was bad. I cant remember did you get Dq'ed on your chicken and I think I remember seeing photos and the board talking about it, is it legal now to do it the way you all did? To me my best chicken doesnt have sauce on it just Head Country and Tammy's Herbal rubs. We have been hearing good bbq doesnt need sauce. I guess when I said the beginning of the end I was thinking more on pushing the envelope, you could take a blender and add pecans, mayo, cerely, grapes, eggs etc and blender them smaller than the allowed size and add to smoked chicken, would be dam good on toasted bread but it isnt bbq IMO!

[barbefunkoramaque]

A long time ago I notice the desire seemingly for the KCBS to conquer other lands, namely the north, for more members, more sanctioned events, and more competitors (art of BBQ be damned) which in part meant more money and more members (I will NOT use prestige). This is just an opinion so I am not targeting any KCBS members talent here as I have not tasted their Q. In the same vein that I say Garnish has little to do with Q, those that excell in Garnish doesn't mean you have bad Q.

I have pointed out many times that GARNISH has nothing to do AT ALL with good BBQ. It may have to do with scores but not with BBQ. The high value of Garnish and Appearance in presenting your box can make a mediocre competitor score higher and HAVE A CHANCE at winning a trophy at one of the newer contests (10 year old or newer) and thereby get more of these guys into the fold. That could be their goal, bringing more people into the fold I guess.

Now, it seems, they can open up the competition with something as far removed from BBQ as a Salad. I used to blow a gasket over Dessert as an event. Chicken Salad and Garnish - This is the reason we have people up near me that have a few trophies from a few silly events and believe they are some serious competitor.They win a trophy at an event near Maine, at an event that has grill offs and BBQ AND DESSERTS, and an event that is two years old or something, where they never heard of say, brisket untilo five years ago and somehow want to equate that as being equal to the Jack, MIM or the Taylor or soemthing. They get down south and they don't get why they score so low. However, there are SOME great competitors up North (as the Jack Showed this year) and maybe those guys started out being less talented and grew into it... so the KCBS theory might be doing some good for guys like these.

With this silly ruling the KCBS might as well just run FAIRS and Pie Contests and call themselves a BBQ Org. Agggh, what am I saying, back in the days I competed at the Taylor, the KCBS was a joke then... they are merely a very powerful collossus now. But that also means it might collapse under it own weight as well.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. Just my opinion... you know... that the KCBS sucks.

Go IBCA!

I'm sorry, I had to bring this topic over here because it is just blowing my mind.

In the December 2008 Bullsheet, page 6, Notes from the Board -- under Old/New business:



I can see the thigh rulings, since all the cook has added is labor to the finished product.

But COLD CHICKEN SALAD WITH MAYO?

Who's going to have the big ones to turn that in?
Mayo standing around on a table in a hot judging tent?

Discuss.

[Dale P]

We dont use any sauce on our chicken. Our pickle juice brine gives enough flavor that it just doesnt need sauce. It really gives the meat a distinct flavor that the judges seem to like and helps with the bite thru skin. We like it and probably wont change unless chicken salad starts whipping us.

[HoDeDo]

First of all, I still want to know, what is KCBS' definition of chicken salad in this case.

Second, as a judge, I will tell you, if you turn in chopped bbq chicken with gravy on it as your sauce, your scores will be lower, because we are supposed to be judging the meat. Can we see the meat if it's under gravy?

As far as 6 piles of chopped/shredded chicken vs one big pile? Whatever looks right to you, that's your presentation. But most contests, we would have to pick it up with our fingers to get it onto our plates, we don't have serving utensils. Guess also gives a clue as to why you don't want to go "outside the box."

So if they brush it with blues hog, which is fairly thick as well, and you dont see the chicken, you score it down? Or only if you see it pooling??
Do you score down any sauce, since you are judging meat? or just gravy:cool::rolleyes:

[txschutte]

This really seems like a moot issue here. Any jackarse that's dumb enough to do chix salad as a turn in at a contest desreves what they get. If KCBS wants to let some moron turn it in, and get 2's across the board for chix, so be it. I don't even see newbie judges being duped into thinking that it's real BBQ, smoked or not.

[SaucyWench]

So if they brush it with blues hog, which is fairly thick as well, and you dont see the chicken, you score it down? Or only if you see it pooling??
Do you score down any sauce, since you are judging meat? or just gravy:cool::rolleyes:


Use however much sauce as you'd like, as thick as you want, you are the cook, it's your choice. I'm just saying if you put on so much that it completely hides the meat, the appearance scores could be lower. How can we judge the appearance of the meat if we can't see any?

Never gotten gravy, bet it wouldn't survive well in the time between turn-in and when it finally gets to the judge's table...

[BBQchef33]

BACK ON TOPIC!!!

Chicken salad legal at KCBS comps.


???

for those that take issue with 'chicken salad', is pulled or chunked chicken with BBQ sauce considered chicken Salad?

If so, why is that ruffling feathers, if its perfectly legit to turn in pork butt, pulled or chunked with same BBQ sauce. ??

(and no matter what anyone says, mayo is a legitimate sauce by KCBS definition. )

[Jeff Hughes]

I helped a guy build his turn ins at his first comp last month.

He burned his chicken skin trying to crisp it up.

When he looked up at me like all was lost, I just grinned and said "pal we are about to see how the judges like pulled chicken"...

I pulled it, added a little rub and sauce, it tasted good. Then I built a nice looking box.

It took around 35th out of 50. I suspect chicken salad would have scored worse...

I think the issue is moot...

[txschutte]

(and no matter what anyone says, mayo is a legitimate sauce by KCBS definition. )
So is Elmer's Glue Stick. Does it make it right?? NO. Legal, yes.

Any Farker willing to turn it in at the AR next year will get a cool $20bill for trying.

The best way I know how to put it is this:
NASCAR says its OK to put a stock 4 cyl engine in the race at Daytona. Your most feared opponent at the race knows about the 4 cyl rule, and plans to use it because he thinks it'll give him the edge. You run the 550 hp torque monster, just like always. You gonna tell the officials their rule is stupid because some moron decides to try it?

You scared that your V8 is gonna get beat by a 4 banger? NO? Then, kwitcherbitchen.

[Smokin' Gnome BBQ]

I have tried pulled chicken with red sauce...I think a mayo based sauce wouldnt do well here in the N.E. U.S.A. ... but at this point I would try about anything to move my chicken scores up!

[watertowerbbq]

thanks for scrubbing this thread

[KC_Bobby]

I have pointed out many times that GARNISH has nothing to do AT ALL with good BBQ. It may have to do with scores but not with BBQ. The high value of Garnish and Appearance in presenting your box can make a mediocre competitor score higher and HAVE A CHANCE at winning a trophy at one of the newer contests (10 year old or newer) and thereby get more of these guys into the fold. That could be their goal, bringing more people into the fold I guess.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers. Just my opinion... you know... that the KCBS sucks.

Go IBCA!

The high value of garnish you speak of is actually worth almost 1/7th of the overall score.
Appearance - .5714 (1/7th)
Taste - 2.2858 (4/7ths)
Tenderness - 1.1428 (2/7ths)
So a great looking box, with less then great product still is highly likely to receive less then great scores. In fact, I can provide first hand experience for more then one occasion regarding this. My chicken turn in's regularly score about 42-43 in app (of the 45 points possible - 9 times 5), but I did something outstanding if it got a total of 40 taste and 38 tenderness points. Only twice this year did our chicken finish in the top half, even with very good app scores in every comp. In fact I got DAL in chicken that scored 99888 in app earlier this year (and yes, it deserved DAL). I can make it look nice, but I can't cook it - I know it and so do the judges.

Do app scores factor into who wins? Sure, but it's not rewarding those who turn in bad or average tasting bbq. It's rewarding those who turn in great product that also happen to look great. Which is the way it should be. Who wouldn't pick the better looking widget if all things are equal otherwise?

[QDoc]

Big Bob Gibson serves half chickens dipped in his white sauce. Pulled, chopped chicken looks like tuna to me and does not look appealing. Nothing wrong with a "white sauce". But in my opinion things like this belong in the "Anything But" catagory.

[SmokeInDaEye]

Big Bob Gibson serves half chickens dipped in his white sauce. Pulled, chopped chicken looks like tuna to me and does not look appealing. Nothing wrong with a "white sauce". But in my opinion things like this belong in the "Anything But" catagory.

How's it score?

[MilitantSquatter]

Guys - 3nd request...Thread needed to bes scrubbed again with all the off topic discussion regarding the quality or lack of, of BBQ cooks in the Northeast (or is that New England)

Please keep this thread on topic.. Thanks for your help !!

[ique]

(or is that New England)

I would answer but I'm guessing that's off-topic.

[SmokeInDaEye]

I would answer but I'm guessing that's off-topic.

I was making chicken salad once in what I thought was New England. Then I found out Long Island isn't part of New England. So the story doesn't really have a point. Sorry.