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watg?
10-27-2008, 07:13 PM
What if you HAD to choose? Your team is invited to cook in both the Royal and the Jack. Due to whatever reason, budgetary considerations, family or work (time off) concerns etc, you could only cook in one, which would it be and why?

Sledneck
10-27-2008, 07:16 PM
The Royal because of all of those crazy MOFO's.

Coz
10-27-2008, 07:23 PM
From the rookie side,I would do the Jack if invited as you have the whole draw process to survive.If you win a qualifier to get into the Jack draw odds are that you will get an Invite to the Royal also(unless your from a certain Illinois city).From here it seems the Jack is more highly sought after.The odds of getting there are slim and could only happen once in a lifetime.If you win a qualifier you get to go to KC.My .02

SmokeInDaEye
10-27-2008, 07:31 PM
That's so odd, George. I was just thinking about that myself. After yesterday's win, I guess I may be invited to the Royal and got a long shot at the Jack.

Problem is, I have so little time for contests as is and the travel/vacation time is a real issue. I've heard great things about the royal and would love to meet all of the MOFOs, but the Jack seems pretty cool too. I have some time to think about it but I feel bad that I may have to turn down what is an amazing honor so many teams strive for.

MilitantSquatter
10-27-2008, 07:45 PM
I thought about this a bit on the plane ride home from the Jack.

Here's my impression

Jack - viewed by many as the most prestigious, prestige is mainly a result of the selection process which to some degree whittles out many of the best teams that year. Typical contest atmoshpere of a park/field like setting except for the Jack Daniels operations. More subdued team atmosphere, 78 teams total and a dozen or so were international (and most did not place too well). Poor payout. Cool trophies. Met some new Brethren which was cool.

Royal - Two contests in one.. 110 teams in the Invitational (many of the same qualifying teams at the Jack plus more GC's) and then over 450 teams combined in the open. Bit more of a party atmosphere in a parking lot. Good payout. Cool Trophies. Met a ton of new Brethren which was fun.

If I had to make a decision to only do one for whatever reason, it would likely be the AR. Tougher competition, more competition, better payouts.

Ford
10-27-2008, 07:53 PM
Jack - harder to qualify and more prestige. It's the world championship.

Plowboy
10-27-2008, 07:57 PM
The Jack, cause I've done the Royal.

MilitantSquatter
10-27-2008, 07:58 PM
Jack - harder to qualify and more prestige. It's the world championship.

Yes.. but it's only harder to qualify based on their selection process not performance. Some of the best teams in the country do not get the chance to prove themselves that year.

I would not be surprised at some point if another competition comes out of nowhere that dubs themselves a World Championship. I've seen it happen in two unrelated sports. The unfortunate part is that it bastardizes what a World Championship is but people will go where the money is or be able to win a title even if it's watered down.

ique
10-27-2008, 07:59 PM
If you had never cooked the Jack before, the Jack. If you had, The Royal. Its harder to get into the Jack so you should take the chance while you got it. I probably slightly prefer the Royal for some of the reasons Vinny mentions.

Plowboy
10-27-2008, 08:00 PM
Jack - harder to qualify and more prestige. It's the world championship.

It is harder to qualify for because of the way the qualifier is run. Qualification is a huge game of chance. It can't be the world championship if most of the world's best teams aren't there. (We had 10 of the top 50 KCBS TOY teams at Kurzweil's this weekend.)

I'll give you prestige.

Podge
10-27-2008, 08:05 PM
hmm.

ique
10-27-2008, 08:08 PM
It can't be the world championship if most of the world's best teams aren't there.

I don't know if most weren't. Some for sure.

It is the only contest that has a real international presence too.

Plowboy
10-27-2008, 08:10 PM
I don't know if most weren't. Some for sure.

It is the only contest that has a real international presence too.

You are correct, not most. How about 'many'? :wink:

ThomEmery
10-27-2008, 08:16 PM
Yes.. but it's only harder to qualify based on their selection process not performance. Some of the best teams in the country do not get the chance to prove themselves that year.

I would not be surprised at some point if another competition comes out of nowhere that dubs themselves a World Championship. I've seen it happen in two unrelated sports. The unfortunate part is that it bastardizes what a World Championship is but people will go where the money is or be able to win a title even if it's watered down.


Now there is a idea :)

ique
10-27-2008, 08:27 PM
You are correct, not most. How about 'many'? :wink:

No doubt.

HoDeDo
10-27-2008, 08:56 PM
Hmm.... the Jack. It is more intimate, and has a different vibe to it. Everyone is happy to be there, and even though it is not run as smoothly as some, it is a "go with the flow" vibe. BUT is does seem to be almost a "throwback" -- it is focused on history and tradition. Lots of quirks, but that is what makes it "The Jack". Where else do you get to walk in a parade with Parrots and Beefeaters. Dine in a 100 yr old boarding house, and bootleg your booze into the hollow??

Having said that... the Royal, is well, controlled chaos... so much going on, and so many different vibes -- and it is new again every year. Scrap it out with 500 teams...
It is amazing as well for all it's own reasons.... and there is something to be said for walking up on that stage with all you friends and competitors there. There is nothing like that.

I don't know how you could choose...
Having said that... I hope I never have to choose!! It's one of those things you never want to have to do.

Plowboy
10-27-2008, 08:59 PM
Andy - That is beautiful. Nice summary!

Dale P
10-27-2008, 10:55 PM
After seeing the Jack this past weekend we are inspired. It is our goal. Our mission. We may not ever get in but it is the pinnacle as far as we are concerned.
Aint that right Matt!

Jaberwabee
10-27-2008, 11:56 PM
Now before I say anything, I am biased towards KC and the Royal. Not even the Royal, but BBQ contests in KC. I grew up going to the Great Lenexa BBQ before the American Royal even had one, and when it did it was held for 1 day and all the competitors would have fit in Andy's space at the Royal this year. I get the basically out in the boonies feel of the Jack, but I have a problem with that "out in a hollow" feel versus the real world marketing they have for the contest, with Guido Fieri. They sell "The World Championship of BBQ" and Guido "brings this back" from the contest to TGI Fridays. I think it detracts from all the tradition of "The Jack". Now I am in marketing and retail, its a great model, but atleast pay the guys that enable you to claim it is the "World Championship" and you "brought back these recipes" from there. If it is the best of the best (oh thats in GA), pay them like it. The payouts are laughable at the Jack. I wont get started on the lottery system of selecting teams.

And BTW, I think KANSAS is now the center of BBQ, contests atleast.
GAB invit GC- Munchin Hogs in Lenexa KS
GAB open RGC- Munchin Hogs in Lenexa KS
Royal Open GC- 4 men and a Pig in Olathe KS
Royal Open RGC- Dammit Andy in the Dotte KS
The Jack GC - 4 Legs up- Garden City, KS.
Great Lenexa - 3 guys with wood - Shawnee, KS

I purposely left all the Mizzou teams of the list. ;) see you on the 29th of Nov.

CivilWarBBQ
10-28-2008, 07:45 AM
The Jack, hands down.

There is no money to win at the Olympics, but nevertheless it is much more prestigious to win a medal there than any compensated professional event. If prize money is your criteria for selecting the premier event, neither the Jack or the Royal are in the running.

YankeeBBQ
10-28-2008, 08:20 AM
I'd probably pick the Jack. You can compete in the Royal Open anytime you want so even if you never qualified again you could still do the Royal.

Of course the first time we qualified we chose the Royal, we didn't even know what the Jack was.

Dan - 3eyzbbq
10-28-2008, 08:48 AM
Da jack

tony76248
10-28-2008, 10:24 AM
The Jack, hands down.

There is no money to win at the Olympics, but nevertheless it is much more prestigious to win a medal there than any compensated professional event. If prize money is your criteria for selecting the premier event, neither the Jack or the Royal are in the running.

Actually there is mucho money handed out to olympic winners, each individual country sets that amount. plus you get the endorsements which are worth a bunch more.

That said, The Jack seems to be much more prestigious due to the draw. As in anyone can go to the royal open event but there isn't an open at the jack.

Jorge
10-28-2008, 10:42 AM
I still haven't been to the Jack, so keep that in mind.

The Jack may get the edge on atmosphere. It's hard to beat Ms. Mary Bobo's, the distillery, the holler, the hill, etc..... On the other hand the exclusivity may exclude some of the best teams in any given year due to pure chance.

If it's pure competition and a belief that to be the best, you have to beat the best, then I've got to go with setting up outside Kemper Arena. Anybody that has won a qualifier has a spot waiting for them. Whether they show up to cook is up to them, and not chance. At the same time, I DO NOT look at the Jack as a lesser Championship.

That's a tough decision to have to make, but it's a good one!

Scottie
10-28-2008, 10:58 AM
They sell "The World Championship of BBQ" and Guido "brings this back" from the contest to TGI Fridays. I think it detracts from all the tradition of "The Jack". Now I am in marketing and retail, its a great model, but atleast pay the guys that enable you to claim it is the "World Championship" and you "brought back these recipes" from there. If it is the best of the best (oh thats in GA), pay them like it. The payouts are laughable at the Jack. I wont get started on the lottery system of selecting teams.



Exactly. I'd say more, but won't burn any bridges...

Oh, and I would also pick the Jack as well. I like the atmosphere better in Lynchburg, compared to the Royal. Don't have tolock your cookers up either in Lynchburg...

Dale P
10-28-2008, 02:05 PM
Heck yes, pay more to the winning cooks to help pay for the trip. Other then adding a 3 year automatic paid entry for the GC I wouldnt change much.

Sledneck
10-28-2008, 02:09 PM
What if you HAD to choose? Your team is invited to cook in both the Royal and the Jack. Due to whatever reason, budgetary considerations, family or work (time off) concerns etc, you could only cook in one, which would it be and why?George, which one would you choose?

Jorge
10-28-2008, 02:11 PM
George, which one would you choose?

How about you? You are already in for one:mrgreen:

Sledneck
10-28-2008, 02:15 PM
How about you? You are already in for one:mrgreen:I am doing both:biggrin:

Vince RnQ
10-28-2008, 02:16 PM
The Jack. No question about it.

The is only one World Championship.

Scottie
10-28-2008, 02:24 PM
Officially... Houston Rodeo is called World BBQ Chanmpionship. Not sure why. As I think 99% of the cookers are from Houston... When I cooked it, I was considered a foreigner... and I'm only from Illinois...

Jorge
10-28-2008, 02:28 PM
Officially... Houston Rodeo is called World BBQ Chanmpionship. Not sure why. As I think 99% of the cookers are from Houston... When I cooked it, I was considered a foreigner... and I'm only from Illinois...

You were. What's your point?:wink:

JD McGee
10-28-2008, 02:30 PM
The "Jack"...I prefer Jack Daniels to Crown "Royal"...:twisted:

Big George's BBQ
10-28-2008, 02:45 PM
Not that I expect to see either but the Jack. If you turn it down and win a GC later in life you may not get the pick that time

Scottie
10-28-2008, 02:49 PM
You were. What's your point?:wink:

Yeah, can't really argue with you... I need to get back, so I can wear my boots and cowboy hat again... I got all fancy. Even had a belt buckle...

I was stylin.. Or whatever that cowboy talk is... :lol:

Jorge
10-28-2008, 03:46 PM
Yeah, can't really argue with you... I need to get back, so I can wear my boots and cowboy hat again... I got all fancy. Even had a belt buckle...

I was stylin.. Or whatever that cowboy talk is... :lol:

HLSR is unique. I describe it to people that have never been as a combination of MIM and Mardi Gras on steroids.

Scottie
10-28-2008, 03:49 PM
Oh man... You didn't even mention all the cowgirls... Giddy up... :tongue:

bbqczar
10-28-2008, 04:29 PM
Now there is a idea :)

Yes.. but it's only harder to qualify based on their selection process not performance. Some of the best teams in the country do not get the chance to prove themselves that year.

I would not be surprised at some point if another competition comes out of nowhere that dubs themselves a World Championship. I've seen it happen in two unrelated sports. The unfortunate part is that it bastardizes what a World Championship is but people will go where the money is or be able to win a title even if it's watered down.

I agree,I would think that the Jack should have around 200 teams,at least as many as the invitational Royal, and the pay-out if it is considered the "World Championship" should be at least somewhere in the 75-100K range ?? How can there be a "World Championship" with only 70-some teams,especially when alot of teams won GC's ,but didn't get drawn.I would think the way to go would be anyone that won a GC in a certain year would get an invite.

ThomEmery
10-28-2008, 04:38 PM
Meridian is also a World Championship...... its all words
It will be interesting seeing what happens over the next
couple of years

CivilWarBBQ
10-28-2008, 06:29 PM
Meridian is also a World Championship...... its all words


That's true. How many "state championships" are there? A whole lot more than 50...

SmokeInDaEye
10-28-2008, 06:58 PM
Heck, I'm just proud to even be able to exercise the idea of doing either next year. Unfortunately money will probably be a huge deciding factor and I have no idea right now what the costs involved in either are. Any insight from veterans?

ThomEmery
10-28-2008, 07:26 PM
That's true. How many "state championships" are there? A whole lot more than 50...

We all know the system is broke
But who could fix it?
Some states now have every event as a State Championship
Stagecoach will have 3 in one weekend

On topic I sure would like to cook the Jack :)

watg?
10-28-2008, 07:36 PM
George, which one would you choose?



You know, I have never really thought about it until yesterday when I posted the question. I am thinking, at least today, if I were in a position to choose, which I am not, I would choose the Jack. I hope one day to find myself in the postion to make that decision. I will say that, if i had have been given the choice this year, with my current work situatuation, I would have had to choose one or the other. I do not think I would have been able to do both...............:eusa_clap

Pigs on The Run
10-28-2008, 08:05 PM
I am always puzzled how the the Jack is so widely popular. It is poorly ran, the pay out is low ,Celebrity judges and not all the best teams in country are invited. The only plusses is booze, and the title of world championship ( which is not truly a world championship).The reality not a lot of people other competition teams really care about the Jack. I think the royal inviational is a better representation of of who is the best! How many Jack Champions in the last 5 years have finished in the top ten of the kcbs TOY? All I can say was is the it was interesting in hearing Mike davis' comments about the Jack in Shelby Nc 2007. I will say the romance of the jack is the main allure but I think it is wrong to believe that the jack is a true represntation of the best team in the country. I do not intend any disrespect to any one who has won there. I am sure it is aq fun contest just not the worlds best. Myron Mixon is probally the best cook in the world and I don't think he has ever finished in the top five. It was great to see Tuffy finishing in the top 3.
Happy cooking!

MilitantSquatter
10-28-2008, 08:20 PM
I am always puzzled how the the Jack is so widely popular. It is poorly ran, the pay out is low ,Celebrity judges and not all the best teams in country are invited. The only plusses is booze, and the title of world championship ( which is not truly a world championship).The reality not a lot of people other competition teams really care about the Jack. I think the royal inviational is a better representation of of who is the best! How many Jack Champions in the last 5 years have finished in the top ten of the kcbs TOY? All I can say was is the it was interesting in hearing Mike davis' comments about the Jack in Shelby Nc 2007. I will say the romance of the jack is the main allure but I think it is wrong to believe that the jack is a true represntation of the best team in the country. I do not intend any disrespect to any one who has won there. I am sure it is aq fun contest just not the worlds best. Myron Mixon is probally the best cook in the world and I don't think he has ever finished in the top five. It was great to see Tuffy finishing in the top 3.
Happy cooking!

I'm in agreement on most of what you said but I have some questions

1) How many Jack GC's were in the top ten KCBS TOY ? :confused: (Let's not forget that KCBS TOY point system both old and new still leaves much to be desired)
2) Care to share what did Mike Davis said or are you gonna leave us hanging ?? :biggrin:

Scottie
10-28-2008, 08:26 PM
Well, I guess this is where I should be insulted by your comments. Maybe check the top 10 for TOY. Also might want to check to see where Bart Clarke is ranked. Maybe even Donny Teal. And it is the only true World Championship out there. So I do not even know how you can say that?

To me, it sounds like a disgruntled comment. As I can also speak about the Royal and their treatment of teams... So I wouldn't speak so highly of anything.

Scottie Johnson
2006 Jack Daniel's World Champion

Q Haven
10-28-2008, 09:46 PM
Maybe if they dropped the Shadetree and the international teams they could have a lot more GC teams there.

Muzzlebrake
10-28-2008, 10:12 PM
wow what a GREAT question! in all seriousness if I had to choose just one I would flip a coin.
I think that the Royal is way cool , overwhelming and out of control but the area kinda sux and there isnt anything else to check out other than the Royal. That being said, with all that is going on why go anywhere else? I am so not a fan of comps in parking lots but where else do you have to go inside to sit on a dirt floor?

The Jack just has something , can't really put my finger on it but its just cool..... It does however have alot of crap that I found to be way overrated, like the hill (terrible food, decent view but not that great way crowded), the Hollow (really just a small town park), Mary Bobo's (average buffet food at best), the awards (dont even bother going for the first hour), and a no open container law enforced by cops patrolling the grounds on quads.

When I explain to people outside the BBQ world I refer (however correct or not) to the Royal as the nationals and the Jack as the world. I do think that the invitational competition at the Royal is far stiffer than the Jack. You would be hard pressed to convince me that the Polish/Estonian/UK/Swiss teams are better than an average MOKAN team and all the draw does is eliminate some really good teams. It just tougher to compete against 100 some champions than 70.

All in all its a tough choice but the BBQ gods smiled on me and I got to do both in the same year. If I had a chance to do it again, I would be all over it!

CivilWarBBQ
10-28-2008, 11:58 PM
Maybe if they dropped the Shadetree and the international teams they could have a lot more GC teams there.

It's the international teams that make the Jack the World Championship, and they are a big part of that special something that makes the Jack unique.

As for the Shade Tree, I worked the turn-in table there this year so I know something about the layout. In it's current form it consists of fifty teams packed into a single baseball field at the very back of the park. Spaces are strictly limited to 20x20 (including your vehicle), no power is available and only a single shared water tap 100ft away. I don't see many pro teams being able to operate in such a place - it's basically tent city.

Dale P
10-29-2008, 06:19 AM
Muzzlebrake has a good point about the International teams. Very noisy buggers too. Thumping on that bloody drum the entire time. Olay olay olay olay? Gave me a fright.

But the international chicks with the sexy accents should be invited back every year. wowsa!

Q Haven
10-29-2008, 06:27 AM
As for the Shade Tree, I worked the turn-in table there this year so I know something about the layout. In it's current form it consists of fifty teams packed into a single baseball field at the very back of the park. Spaces are strictly limited to 20x20 (including your vehicle), no power is available and only a single shared water tap 100ft away. I don't see many pro teams being able to operate in such a place - it's basically tent city.

Sounds like every contest we cook in the Northeast....although we have power.

And I respect your opinion but a bunch of international teams in ridiculous costumes was not what made our trip to the Jack special...was more like a comic sideshow.

YankeeBBQ
10-29-2008, 07:09 AM
Sounds like every contest we cook in the Northeast....although we have power.

And I respect your opinion but a bunch of international teams in ridiculous costumes was not what made our trip to the Jack special...was more like a comic sideshow.

I totally disagree. I think the international presence is a big part of why I like the Jack. If your on the track with those teams you get to interact with them and it's a lot of fun, without them it would just be another contest. That's just my opinion of course.

Podge
10-29-2008, 07:21 AM
Both the Jack and the Royal did not have (at least this year) 100% attendance of the best teams in the world competing there. The Jack didn't draw all of them, and the AR lost some to Gallatin, Tn. contest.

CivilWarBBQ
10-29-2008, 07:37 AM
Sounds like every contest we cook in the Northeast....although we have power.


For better or worse, here in Dixie a significant number of teams are now using rigs that are forty feet long and require 30 amps of electric service, if not 50. Personally I would be happier with contests that look more like a campground than an RV park, but I understand it's natural for folks who can afford it to want more comfort and convenience at cookoffs.

It does make it increasingly difficult to host events though, as the cook teams are coming to expect accommodations for oversized rigs, and providing RV support doesn't come cheap.

lunchlady
10-29-2008, 08:21 AM
fortunately, or unfortunately, we have had to make that same decision for the past two years.

We chose the Jack, hands down. Don't get me wrong, I really regret not being able to get out to the Royal, but we are already in the planning stages for next year.

I think it's incredible that international teams come out to a teeny tiny holler in Tennessee. I just wish I had more time to go meet them all. How often do you get to say that you visited with international guests? And that you all have things in common (BBQ) that you can talk about, albeit brokenly?

The Jack is gonna do what the Jack wants to do. Don't play if you don't like it, but I will always go if we are lucky enough to get invited. I think it is quite disrespectful to say it is the booze... it is so much more than just the booze, which they don't have flowing in fountains for your consumption, by the way.
And... they have been doing this for 20 years... I know there are only a select few of us that can say that.
It is the only contest, that I know of and I could be wrong, that invites international teams... how can you seriously call it a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP, regardless of how they look, talk, party or place, without them?

I guess I don't understand the Shadetree event being there at that same time though, no offense to anyone. I totally remember being a newbie/backyard team, and to get to be there, alongside all those championship teams would be way cool, but I saw some of their award ceremony and they never even got inside of that pavilion. That would be crappy to me. They could fit more teams over where they were, but it is up to them, not us.

So... I choose the Jack, with the disclaimer that I have never been to the AR...
my goal is to make more prize money to be able to go to both and not have to make that decision again. :>

ique
10-29-2008, 08:24 AM
I As for the Shade Tree, I worked the turn-in table there this year so I know something about the layout. In it's current form it consists of fifty teams packed into a single baseball field at the very back of the park. Spaces are strictly limited to 20x20 (including your vehicle), no power is available and only a single shared water tap 100ft away. I don't see many pro teams being able to operate in such a place - it's basically tent city.

It wasn't much different around the racetrack where we were setup. Maybe a bit more water service, but we didn't have electricity for most of the night. Some of the Pro teams were further away than the shade tree area. They could definitely add another 30 pro team instead of having that shade tree contest.

And I like having the international teams (particularly the Irish team :))... remember a team from Great Britain won the whole thing a few years ago.

Sledneck
10-29-2008, 08:25 AM
What is the shade tree?

ique
10-29-2008, 10:53 AM
Heck, I'm just proud to even be able to exercise the idea of doing either next year. Unfortunately money will probably be a huge deciding factor and I have no idea right now what the costs involved in either are. Any insight from veterans?

You could probably do the Jack for about the same expense as a regular contest. You'd have some extra gas costs, and possibly some hotel costs, but there is no entry fee.

The Royal is expensive, two contests and the entry fee can get up there if you need extra space. Also, its tough spending 3+ days in a parking lot. An RV is highly advised or at least a local hotel room. All of which greatly increases costs. I dont even want to know how much money the Royal cost my team this year.

Muzzlebrake
10-29-2008, 07:04 PM
I think its cool to have the internationals there, they are a riot and lots of fun but I am not all that sure of what level of competition they are used to facing or able to compete against. I like the costumes, drums and outlandish "on tour" behavior it's a blast.

I would however rather see a team of Brazilian women or the Swedish bikini team than a Beefeater anyday!

It is amazing to me that neither the Jack or Royal have running water. The Royal I think does a better job with the tankers coming by. We had to hijack QN and his golf cart to get water.

They are both so cool, each in their own way.......still say its a coin toss

Linda
10-29-2008, 08:15 PM
This is for Militant Sqatter. Smokin in the Boys Room was team of the year. Twin Oak was team of the year. We finished 3rd in team of the year rankings the year we won. Winning Jack and being ranked in the team of the year standings is not unusual.

As far as choosing Jack or the Royal, I think it's like comparing apples to oranges. They are both unique events and both have their positives and negatives. We're lucky enough to live in the same town where the Royal is held. We'll continue to cook there until we quit competing. And if we're ever invited back to Jack, we'l go in a heart beat.

Linda
Smokin' Guns BBQ
1999 Jack Daniel's World Champion

BBQchef33
10-29-2008, 10:13 PM
personally, I like the royal better.

We were off the beaten path at the Jack this year, so to us it was just another contest. We most likely missed alot of stuff that went on. In our section, it was really subdued. The royal however, you KNOW your at the big one no matter where you are. Crowds, the huge arena, the sea of people on Friday night.. the pole dancers, etc... :) chit.. i even forgot to do the cabo shots at the jack.

Big Mike
10-30-2008, 07:09 AM
Muzzlebrake has a good point about the International teams. Very noisy buggers too. Thumping on that bloody drum the entire time. Olay olay olay olay? Gave me a fright.

But the international chicks with the sexy accents should be invited back every year. wowsa!

Especially the short blonde from Ireland!!!

paydabill
10-30-2008, 07:59 AM
I have doen the Royal - I guess it would be the Jack one time.

I like the Royal and how close it is, but my stuff has never done well in KC. Funny what 120 miles can do to taste buds.

Bastey Boy
10-30-2008, 01:32 PM
The Jack, hands down.

'Course, I aint been invited fer quite a while! :cry:

We're going next year, invite or no:icon_devil

Muzzlebrake
10-30-2008, 08:26 PM
The Jack, hands down.


why do you say that? what makes it so much better for you than the Royal?