PDA

View Full Version : Kinda pissed about new judges


Bigmista
10-19-2008, 12:20 PM
Viejas 2008 was the biggest contest ever in the state of California. They had a judges class on Friday. Most of the people in that class ended up as judges in this historic contest. 45% of the judges were brand new this was their first contest. TOY, ROY and a $6500.00 GC were on the line, this is the last contest of the season for us and this rookies are giving out 3's in taste and 4's in tenderness.

Do you think rookies should be allowed to cut their teeth in big contests with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

Marsha
10-19-2008, 12:25 PM
Similar thing happened the last time we competed in Modesto. There was a judging class the day before and many of the judges were from the class. Scores that weekend were all over the place. Maybe things would have worked out the same with all seasoned judging, maybe not. But the point is that it seems to be unfair to some folks.

Bigmista
10-19-2008, 12:38 PM
I was in the top 10 in brisket every contest I cooked in this year. I get to this contest and I get a 4 and 5's in tenderness? I've never made a brisket that tough in my life!

Is a 4 "it takes two wild horses to pull it apart" or "better break out the chop saw"?

motoeric
10-19-2008, 12:40 PM
What were the alternatives? Did they have experienced judges that they were turning away?

Sometimes you have to play the hand that you are dealt. If the organizers didn't have other judges to fill the ranks then their options were limited.

On the other hand, if they withheld certain spots in order to have an incentive for people to take the judging class and used those reserved spots for brand new judges at the expense of more experienced people, that's a problem.

Eric

/dev/bbq
10-19-2008, 01:39 PM
New judges tend to differentiate more - they're trying to reward the entries that really stood out in their minds, or fit the criteria they were taught in class. It makes for more varying scores, but a 9 is still a 9...

-ralph
/dev/bbq
CBJ #21235

MilitantSquatter
10-19-2008, 01:42 PM
Mista - I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it's fair to point fingers at the judges.

Someone's BBQ was good enough to get lots of 8's & 9's and were worthy of GC and were evaluated by the same pool of judges. If anything, blame the organizers for the inability to recruit enough experienced judges and still accept the # of teams they did for a big contest, or for holding a class immediately before the contest etc.

I think there are lots of contests like this especially in growing areas.. Northeast is somewhat like this as well. I could only guess how many inexperienced judges were judging the AR Open with 500 teams.

Don't stress it.. Hopefully you had fun and you nail another 10 ten in your first contest for 2009.

warfrat
10-19-2008, 02:04 PM
I recently attended an FBA judges seminar and also judged a competition (though it was a funcook) the following day. I don't know how your scoring system works but if you give anything below a six in FBA there has to be something really, really bad wrong...you even have to inform the head judge as to why you scored that low. I'm sure I'll take some heat on this but my stance is that no - rookie judges are probably not the best to judge a comp. of that stature. Given- you can get a low score from a veteran judge just as easy as a rookie but from a rookie standpoint I can tell you that unless a judge is experienced and has actually competed in a contest or tried to cook competition quality BBQ at home they have absolutely no idea the kind of time and preparation that goes into what's in those turn in boxes. Appearance is one thing but tenderness is something that is mastered by many hours of practice! I recently got a new smoker and started trying to cook the four different categories at home. I thought I was a pretty decent cook but my stuff is crap compared to the food I sampled judging my first event, which makes me appreciate a good or great entry even more now! just my 2 cents...

eurycea
10-19-2008, 02:06 PM
Do you think rookies should be allowed to cut their teeth in big contests with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

I don't think its a bad thing to have rookie judges as long as the reps try to keep the same number of rookies at each table.

motoeric
10-19-2008, 03:02 PM
I can tell you that unless a judge is experienced and has actually competed in a contest or tried to cook competition quality BBQ at home they have absolutely no idea the kind of time and preparation that goes into what's in those turn in boxes.

Until a sanctioning body includes a new evaluation category of 'Amount of Effort' for judging, how much time and prep that goes into a teams food is irrelevant for the purposes of scoring.

Eric

Jaybird
10-19-2008, 03:04 PM
I understand your pain Neil. Our Pork was off the charts......and we hit that wrong table and wound up 37th. Two judges at that table hit us hard while the other 4 loved it. It kept us out of the big money for sure. Oh well, that's the way this game goes....but I do feel your pain.

warfrat
10-19-2008, 03:25 PM
Until a sanctioning body includes a new evaluation category of 'Amount of Effort' for judging, how much time and prep that goes into a teams food is irrelevant for the purposes of scoring.

Eric

What I mean is that you can't just run out to the local grocery store get some meat throw it on the grill and turn out quality comp. BBQ. (at least I can't anyways) If that's the only type of BBQ a rookie judge has ever had, they don't really have a lot to compare to. I'm sure some teams have more elaborate prep and cooking efforts than others and I'm not saying that their "effort" is relevant to how good or bad the results are. Also, cooking on a time schedule where everything has to be turned in at certain times and look,taste and feel are at their best is different than a Sat.afternoon cook for a few buddies in the backyard and thus takes a little more effort in the "attention to detail" department. BTW- no offense intended to rookie judges (I'm one of them)

Ford
10-19-2008, 03:25 PM
So "big" contests deserve "better" judging??????

First off lots of contests each year have a judging class on Thursday evening and those folks get to judge Saturday. That's how it usually works.

Second what 's the difference from a small 30 team contest and a "big" one that the big one should have different judges? Be thankful that they had some training and were not dragged in off the midway at the fair or some other scenario.

Last thing - how do you know the "new" judges gave out the 4's? Maybe it was a P.O.'d long time judge. You're making an assumption here and we all know what an assumption.

I can't believe I just defended judging. For the record more training is needed as is a compulsory 1 hour review before every contest. But nobody at the KCBS agrees with me so I guess I'm in the minority.

Bigmista
10-19-2008, 03:41 PM
So "big" contests deserve "better" judging??????



Yes I believe their should be more experienced judging at bigger contests. They don't send rookie refs to the Superbowl or the NBA Championship because there is too much at stake to leave a decision up to someon with no experience.

Jeff Hughes
10-19-2008, 04:44 PM
Yes I believe their should be more experienced judging at bigger contests. They don't send rookie refs to the Superbowl or the NBA Championship because there is too much at stake to leave a decision up to someon with no experience.

Well, it is the system you signed up to compete under, and I'd love to hear your proposal for a fix...

Sledneck
10-19-2008, 05:03 PM
Hey guys I think Mista needs a hug :biggrin:

MilitantSquatter
10-19-2008, 05:34 PM
Mista - you know I love ya, but I think you're off the mark here to try to compare the Superbowl or NBA champs to a 50 team BBQ contest which is not all that big when you look it at nationally. Until the day comes that judges are paid (which will never happen to any substantial degree for most contests), you have to live with the hand that was dealt. When a team signs up for a contest and pays the application a risk is taken unless a guarantee is made regarding the level of judging experience to be offered.

This issue should only be taken up with the organizers. It's not a KCBS issue as far as I can see and it's not the fault of the judges either.

OK.. now let's hug like Sled suggested. :icon_blush:

Jacked UP BBQ
10-19-2008, 05:43 PM
What makes a good judge? All people have taste buds, all people at least most can be told once what to look for and do it right. We are talking about judging bbq, not doing open heart surgery. I am not sure about this entire judge thing, there is no better or worse person for judging. Either food is good or it is not, or maybe its just ok. This weekend my food was terrible and I knew it going in, could I have blamed the judges no, I can only blame the teams that beat me for doing it that much better. Anyone is qualified or can be taught to judge, so whether its your first time judging or your 300th time judging, you are tasting food with a basic profile, some will stand out and some will not. Also like I believe it is subjective, so throw good bbq to the pack of wolves and hope your lucky table number hits and your flavors are what they are looking for. T

lunchlady
10-19-2008, 06:07 PM
I feel for you Mista... but this does happen at a lot of contests in our area too... the judging class just before an event and those same 'newbies' judging. At Lake Placid and at Oinktoberfest (and hopefully everywhere else) I believe they try to put experienced judges WITH the new judges, and then table captains are trying to watch scores to see if everyone is in line with everyone else.

have a great off season!

Chipper
10-19-2008, 06:18 PM
As a new member, this really fascinates me. I have been competing in chili with CASI mostly, but some ICS. The judging runs the gamut from experienced to the barely sober who's only required to be over 18 and have a pulse. Ultimately, it does boil down to taste and consistency as well, and tough is tough and tender is tender. No?

HoDeDo
10-19-2008, 06:44 PM
Neil - Sorry to hear about that experience man. I can tell you that the more you cook, the more you will find judges that are all over the place. Certified or not, Seasoned or not...

I have been to contests with 100% certified judges, and no Thurs judging class, and still gotten tables I wondered about. And if you think yours was bad.... lets look at 4 Men and a Pig.... They got some bad judging and took just about DAL in the AR Invitational.... The next day, he won the open... judging varies. There just isnt anything we can do about it.

As far as the new judges -- they are typically trying to be very diligent, and follow the rules. Frankly, I worry about the more seasoned ones, that aren't open to new flavor profiles, etc. They have a "9" in thier mind before they get a bite... so instead of getting judged on the merits of the piece in the box, you can get judged against the best contest brisket they have tried. (not saying that is a bad thing.....but, playing a little devil's advocate.)

I know how you feel... At the $50,000 pine bluff contest, I got two calls, and 9th overall... and Pork was my worst catagory... At Hot Spring - the sister $50K contest (Both with alot of teams) I got my arse handed to me in everything but pork. (got a 1st in pork)... Am I happy -- no.... Did I lose a wink of sleep over it -- nope!!
Don't feel bad, it's peeps judging peeps...no perfect system. so just let it roll off and get ready for the next dance :)

I'd hug you, but Sled isn't really letting anyone else in line :)

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
I just glanced over ther previous posts... but here is MHO anyway.... a mix of judges (even 50new/50old) is great!. it keeps things honest. lets say I am a judge so is my wife, brother,sis in law, kid, and neighbors family all are. we hang out Q and all like Dizzy Pig rubs.a total of 9 judges at one comp... try as you hard as you can...you will still look for the flavor profile of Dizzy Pig Rubs. If you are a new judge you may just look for what you like, not for what you have been "trained"/ a customed to look for. I like new judges just because when they say your turn ins suck, they dont leave with a cooler full to share with their friends...o.k. Im done..

G$
10-19-2008, 07:05 PM
Viejas 2008 was the biggest contest ever in the state of California. They had a judges class on Friday. Most of the people in that class ended up as judges in this historic contest. 45% of the judges were brand new this was their first contest. TOY, ROY and a $6500.00 GC were on the line, this is the last contest of the season for us and this rookies are giving out 3's in taste and 4's in tenderness.

Do you think rookies should be allowed to cut their teeth in big contests with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

Hey Neil, while I do agree with you in that I was scratching my head on a few of our results, I will say that a lot of the top spots (and of course the GC) went to teams that have been VERY consistent recently. In brisket for example, there were a lot of teams that were at the top, thatr usually are at the top. This would seem to indicate things were not too far out of line overall.

CajunSmoker
10-19-2008, 07:11 PM
Is the winner complaining?

Ron_L
10-19-2008, 07:20 PM
I was in the top 10 in brisket every contest I cooked in this year. I get to this contest and I get a 4 and 5's in tenderness? I've never made a brisket that tough in my life!

Is a 4 "it takes two wild horses to pull it apart" or "better break out the chop saw"?

I hear ya bro! Erratic judging drives me crazy, too, but what can we do about it? This weekend we turned in some of the best food we have cooked all season but ended up with only one call. Our brisket was beaten by one team who openly told me that his brisket was so over cooked that it fell into shreds in his hands. Oh well...

That reminds me of one thing... You mentioned that you hace never cooked a tough brisket. Remember that tenderness can also be scored down for too tender, or too dry. I'm not saying that yours was, but a low tenderness score doesn't mean that it was tough.

BBQ Grail
10-19-2008, 07:49 PM
You mentioned that you hace never cooked a tough brisket.


I believe what Mista meant to say was "I've never cooked a tough brisket in a competition." Because I remember a four year old brisket that was a little on the tough side.

Bigdog
10-19-2008, 08:10 PM
I believe what Mista meant to say was "I've never cooked a tough brisket in a competition." Because I remember a four year old brisket that was a little on the tough side.

I don't remember it being tough, just not a great taste. I believe "freezer burnt" would be the term here. :oops:

Bossmanbbq
10-19-2008, 08:29 PM
We have seen this alot this year when it comes to new judges. Its frustrating when you know this is the case by looking at the scores you get, I mean how do you justify it when you get four 9s and two under 5?
My opinion, KCBS needs to take a long hard look at how the scores are coming in and how individuals are justifying such wide spreads in scores espeacially when you have guys who spend hundreds of dollars at a contest only to be slapped in the face by a first time judge not knowing the diffrence between the good and the sublime.
I went to judging school and walked away shaking my head after hearing and seeing what they felt about BBQ. But I have to have faith that if we all express our concerns enough to KCBS changes of some kind will be put in place or somthing that will help fix this madness!

MilitantSquatter
10-19-2008, 08:40 PM
Bossman - How are you 100% sure they are new judges giving you the 5's ? How do you know that those pieces that got a 5 were not worse than the others in the box ?

Everytime questions of the inefficient judging arise, it reminds me to look at the teams who excel week after week and year after year. Take a look at Pickled Pig's ranking site (http://http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm)and note how many teams are repeated in multiple categories as well as overall ranking and even more impressive the # of GC's won this year... Sure many of them compete a lot more frequently than most, but they are also going up against the exact same judging pool (new and experienced) as all the other teams they compete against.

http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm

Jacked UP BBQ
10-19-2008, 08:58 PM
Bossman - How are you 100% sure they are new judges giving you the 5's ? How do you know that those pieces that got a 5 were not worse than the others in the box ?

Everytime questions of the inefficient judging arise, it reminds me to look at the teams who excel week after week and year after year. Take a look at Pickled Pig's ranking site (http://http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm)and note how many teams are repeated in multiple categories as well as overall ranking and even more impressive the # of GC's won this year... Sure many of them compete a lot more frequently than most, but they are also going up against the exact same judging pool (new and experienced) as all the other teams they compete against.

http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm


Well said. I also wondered how they knew that they were sure the judges were new?

Bigmista
10-19-2008, 09:03 PM
Now let it be said that I was happy about being 11th in ribs until I saw my score in brisket. I'd be a hypocrite if I praised the judges for one score and blasted them for another.

My rib scores are:
899 755 798 878 876 888

Here there are:

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/viejas%202008/Viejas2008020.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/viejas%202008/Viejas2008021.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j67/bigmista/viejas%202008/Viejas2008022.jpg

Bigmista
10-19-2008, 09:08 PM
Bossman - How are you 100% sure they are new judges giving you the 5's ? How do you know that those pieces that got a 5 were not worse than the others in the box ?

Everytime questions of the inefficient judging arise, it reminds me to look at the teams who excel week after week and year after year. Take a look at Pickled Pig's ranking site (http://http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm)and note how many teams are repeated in multiple categories as well as overall ranking and even more impressive the # of GC's won this year... Sure many of them compete a lot more frequently than most, but they are also going up against the exact same judging pool (new and experienced) as all the other teams they compete against.

http://www.thepickledpig.com/PPapps/rankings/PowerRankings25.cfm

It seems to me that you are making my point that this is an abberation. If I scored top 10 in every contest where I cooked brisket against all of these same teams and then all of a sudden I end up 41st at the only contest that I competed in that had a judging class the day before isn't the logical conclusion that the new judges affected the scoring?

MilitantSquatter
10-19-2008, 09:14 PM
MIsta - I agree it is one logical conclusion, but I think it's equally fair to then also say other logical conclusions could potentially be as follows

1) The usual luck factor in every contest
2) potentially something happened to your box between pics & scoring if appearance scores were lower than expected
3) the other 40 briskets that placed higher in this particular week were potentially better

Do you know the experience level of the judges at all the other contests that you placed well at or was it not as important to know ?

The other point is, that the potential new judges that may have tanked your brisket scores, also judged three other categories most probably of the entries from other teams, so this as well helps to round out the scoring in addition to the low score being dropped.

To help correct this potential issue in the future whom do you think should be held more accountable - the organizer or KCBS ?

PS - you're ribs look great !!!

BRBBQ
10-19-2008, 09:46 PM
I hate to say it but it looks like to much sauce and the ribs are not evenly cut. Strictly judging by Pic's! I judged a contest recently and the organizer broke the tables up making sure each table had about equal contest experiences. Are your scores a 5? NO! 8's

Bigmista
10-19-2008, 10:09 PM
Vinny, I'd say the organizer. If you are going to be the premier event in the state, I think you should shoot for the best judges.

BQBBQ, I had to pull ribs from 3 different racks. I was happy to get them that close.

swamprb
10-19-2008, 11:13 PM
Were the new judges KCBS or CBBQA certified? Seems to me if they are handing out 3's and 4's the instructor needs to to clarify a little better when training. How many judges were there for that many teams? How many boxes were they sampling per table? PNWBA may have 8 boxes per table sometimes.
I'll never figure it out, and won't even try. I can't cook every time but will judge when I can just to keep in the game. Aren't you the VP for the CBBQA? Maybe you should judge a comp or two next year. Some of my worst turn ins have scored high and the ones I was really proud of tank.

TOPS BBQ
10-19-2008, 11:51 PM
Neil - It was great to have finally met you at what I believe is the most well organized event in all of california (at least the ones that I have attended). This was my first competition in SoCal and am happy overall with how the judges scored us.

I know one of those judges that took the class and that person ended up being a table captain, because we told the organizer we had a relationship, so that other teams wouldn't think there were any wrong doings. Also, that same person stated that all the tables were divided evenly between newby and veteran judges, as well as separated spouses and friends from each table. The person also told me that there were a couple of incidents that 4's were given and they approached the judge to verify as to why they gave such a low number and it then stood.

IMHO, I would have to say that was pretty fair. Also, I have been in the top 10 many times as well, but only to be humbled with DAL results too. It sucks! But I have learned to live with the fact that everyone has your same experience at one time or another.

TOPS BBQ
10-19-2008, 11:53 PM
[quote=swamprb;761447]Were the new judges KCBS or CBBQA certified? /quote]

KCBS. CBBQA does not certify judges.

Bigmista
10-20-2008, 12:41 AM
Robert it great to finally shake your hand even though you didn't want to share your casino winnings. :lol:

ihbobry
10-20-2008, 07:21 AM
... with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

I feel that if there is anything other than pride on the line it's the competitor that put it there.

The concept of rewards based on effort is in conflict with rewarding results. Turn ins are the results. This is a crutch complaint that you hear after almost every event from someone sooner or later and its getting weak. I've said it myself once or twice I am sure.

In fact recently on this board there was a team that bitched about scoring @ an event with over 50 entrants, then they went to a small almost backyard and where raving about how they where back on track, then recently they went to another "big" event and cooked the worst food ever. Hmmm. Must have been the judges from the first event followed them huh? :)

As more and more people get involved in BBQ the scale of what is average goes up. I'd put money on it that a bell curve chart would prove out the scoring was evenhanded.

It's just BBQ for goodness sakes. The sun will come up tomorrow.

Big George's BBQ
10-20-2008, 07:47 AM
Unfortuneately there are only so many experienced judges. It is strictly voluntary and they pay their own expenses. Sometimes it is hard to get all the experienced ones you would like to have. Personally I think the inexperienced judges should be mentored at a contest so that after a category they can discuss how/why they voted that way. It may not help for the first contest they do but it will for future ones.

ThomEmery
10-20-2008, 08:22 AM
Tables....
with only 5 scores you are going to get bit by the Table monster at some point
hey it is only a $1000
Move on to the next one :)

Smokin' Gnome BBQ
10-20-2008, 08:34 AM
Unfortuneately there are only so many experienced judges. It is strictly voluntary and they pay their own expenses. Sometimes it is hard to get all the experienced ones you would like to have. Personally I think the inexperienced judges should be mentored at a contest so that after a category they can discuss how/why they voted that way. It may not help for the first contest they do but it will for future ones.


how do you mentor some one in taste, either you like it or you dont.Judges are supposed to keep an open mind and if you tell them what they should like or look for wouldnt that that away from the objectiveness of their opinion? like telling a judge only thighs are good and pulled chicken isnt.

Bigmista
10-20-2008, 09:04 AM
In fact recently on this board there was a team that bitched about scoring @ an event with over 50 entrants, then they went to a small almost backyard and where raving about how they where back on track, then recently they went to another "big" event and cooked the worst food ever. Hmmm. Must have been the judges from the first event followed them huh? :)

I've placed in the top 10 in brisket all year in large and small contests. If I made a bad brisket I would know and my honest friends from my team and other teams that tasted my brisket would let me know. I also know that there isn't anything I can do about it and at this point I am just letting it go.

It's just BBQ for goodness sakes. The sun will come up tomorrow.

If anybody knows this, it's me. I rarely complain about anything and this thread was mainly for two things, letting me vent and starting a conversation. I had way too much fun out there to let this really get me down.

willkat98
10-20-2008, 09:11 AM
Big "Chop Saw" Mista

HoDeDo
10-20-2008, 09:14 AM
If anybody knows this, it's me. I rarely complain about anything and this thread was mainly for two things, letting me vent and starting a conversation. I had way too much fun out there to let this really get me down.

Thats the key take away.... dont let it get ya down. :twisted:
But we do need to get you to the Great American or the Royal :razz:

bbqczar
10-20-2008, 10:22 AM
Neil,man I feel your pain as well.We tanked on pork, and I thought it was alot better than our 1st place pork at Stagecoach,way better! We also tanked on chicken and I spent the past 3 weekends practicing chicken 2 times a day and seemed to do no good, although I thought it was the best chicken we had done in a year ! It was a long drive back to Phoenix after this one,I was VERY dissapointed at our showing. I guess on to the next one,can't go back,but have to move forward.I left this contest wondering if I even know how to boil water anymore !!!

Dale P
10-20-2008, 10:29 AM
I imagine all of us have had a contest that we wish we could change.
I do feel your pain Big Mista. I wish we could call a mulligan and have a "do over" at Madison.

BowtieBill
10-20-2008, 11:34 AM
Well Neil, I can't say I feel your pain, 'cuz you do not know what pain is. How about 51st out of 52 in Brisket.
You know Dan has done pretty well with his Brisket recently, and we thought this one was OK, not his best, but not bad. To get 51st was a slap in the face. But you got to take it and move on.
Could your low score in tenderness be from it being too tender?
I think it is still better to have freshly trained judges then what we had in Clovis, where over half were not certified. And that was a big comp (for us out here) as well, with 42 teams I believe.
But I know how you feel, have been Top Ten in Ribs at every comp this year except one (Fairfield, but it was my fault). Thought our Ribs were very good this weekend, Judges thought they were mid pack, along with the Pork.
If I posted Saturday after looking at the scores, I propably would of said that it was my last contest. But we will try to forget and move on. Best thing that I can recommend.
And thanks for sharing the Anejo. Hope you enjoyed the Reposado I brought. Wish we had time to polish them bottles off (drown our sorrows).
Congrats on your ribs, they looked great.
Are we going to see you in Long Beach on 12/12?
Later,
Bill

CivilWarBBQ
10-20-2008, 11:46 AM
Ah, the joy of the rogue table... I've been hit with it many times, but here's one about a buddy of mine you might have heard of.

The contest was the Young Harris, GA event this year, a first year event. My buddy turned in the same pork he always does, having refined his recipe and presentation cooking contests since 1996. I tasted his product and it was right were it always is - incredibly good and better than our own that day.

The judges ranked his pork at the bottom of the field - the only team that scored lower failed to turn in a box. Our own entry finished in 5th place. Boy was my friend steamed! No doubt that he was hosed by a bad table in my mind.

Oh, and the name of the unlucky guy who submitted the DAL pork? My buddy's name is Myron Mixon.

Bigmista
10-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Well Neil, I can't say I feel your pain, 'cuz you do not know what pain is. How about 51st out of 52 in Brisket.
You know Dan has done pretty well with his Brisket recently, and we thought this one was OK, not his best, but not bad. To get 51st was a slap in the face. But you got to take it and move on.
Could your low score in tenderness be from it being too tender?
I think it is still better to have freshly trained judges then what we had in Clovis, where over half were not certified. And that was a big comp (for us out here) as well, with 42 teams I believe.
But I know how you feel, have been Top Ten in Ribs at every comp this year except one (Fairfield, but it was my fault). Thought our Ribs were very good this weekend, Judges thought they were mid pack, along with the Pork.
If I posted Saturday after looking at the scores, I propably would of said that it was my last contest. But we will try to forget and move on. Best thing that I can recommend.
And thanks for sharing the Anejo. Hope you enjoyed the Reposado I brought. Wish we had time to polish them bottles off (drown our sorrows).
Congrats on your ribs, they looked great.
Are we going to see you in Long Beach on 12/12?
Later,
Bill

Bill I'm not sure. I'm just about ready to start selling at the Farmer's Market on Saturdays so I might just make an appearance on Friday night after I get my meat on and get everything packed. And I will probably come over for the awards.

The Reposado was very good. i look forward to our "Tequila Exchange" at the contest. Yet another reason to keep showing up. That and the awesome Potlucks!

Ford
10-20-2008, 04:47 PM
First question is when do you taste your brisket? I put extra slices on a cutting board and leave them until I think the judges are eating them. At less than 30 team contests (5 tables) I assume 15 minutes after I send the box off is when a judge is eating (maybe a couple earlier). At over 30 to 72 I add 5 minutes. It takes time to renumber and sort to ensure they get to a different table. Over 72 I add 5 more minutes. Then and only then do I taste it. Brisket you slice and eat has very different texture and tenderness after sitting for 15-25 minutes. If you are tasting before making the box then try this and see if it makes a difference.

You said you used 3 slabs of ribs to get your turn-in. There are times it is necessary but each slab will taste a little different (different pigs, size, how fed, etc) and you will have rub slightly differently. They will cook slightly differently depending on how they are in the cooker. Still it sometimes is necessary but it certainly could explain your difference in rib scores for taste and tenderness (55 and 76)

Bigmista
10-20-2008, 05:02 PM
Thanx Ford. Definitely somethng to consider.

barbefunkoramaque
10-20-2008, 05:05 PM
Viejas 2008 was the biggest contest ever in the state of California. They had a judges class on Friday. Most of the people in that class ended up as judges in this historic contest. 45% of the judges were brand new this was their first contest. TOY, ROY and a $6500.00 GC were on the line, this is the last contest of the season for us and this rookies are giving out 3's in taste and 4's in tenderness.

Do you think rookies should be allowed to cut their teeth in big contests with so much on the line when they really have no concept of what goes into creating competitions BBQ?

YOU ASKED?

first... i believe judges should be blindfolded... that takes care of presentation... either that or no blind boxes just wadded up butcher paper with only bbq inside. You can only judge the BBQ appearance then.

next... if your a judge that was born and raised in bbq country you can judge within 24 hours from course completion... if your not regional... then you can judge as soon as you have eaten 24 meals from any of the meccas on bbq... or 24 years.

if there are not enough judges close down some competitions outside the BBQ beltway.

lastly... for all invitationals you can bring salt, pepper wood of choice and meat, untrimmed, sealed in original packaging and three other spices of your choice.

Everything else belongs in a separate category, "fusion style BBQ" where its more freestyle.

:wink::icon_blush:

Now there is one exception to the "regional Rule" there's a guy in michigan that simmers, smokes, refrigerates and then reseasons and DEEP FRIES his ribs on order. Anyone from Michigan for this reason is welcome to judge immediately as that is one of the best ribs I have ever had... different, not really BBQ, but damn good.

barbefunkoramaque
10-20-2008, 05:20 PM
We have seen this alot this year when it comes to new judges. Its frustrating when you know this is the case by looking at the scores you get, I mean how do you justify it when you get four 9s and two under 5?
My opinion, KCBS needs to take a long hard look at how the scores are coming in and how individuals are justifying such wide spreads in scores espeacially when you have guys who spend hundreds of dollars at a contest only to be slapped in the face by a first time judge not knowing the diffrence between the good and the sublime.
I went to judging school and walked away shaking my head after hearing and seeing what they felt about BBQ. But I have to have faith that if we all express our concerns enough to KCBS changes of some kind will be put in place or somthing that will help fix this madness!

This guy can judge immediately. His wisdom transcends!

Bentley
10-20-2008, 08:05 PM
Bossman - How are you 100% sure they are new judges giving you the 5's ? 7


That would be my question too. It seems alful funny though that a few have posted that the judges were evenly dispersed. I am not a computer guy or a number cruncher, but it would seem to me that there would be some way to know how many contest judge 1 has done...judge 2...I can then say the experienced BBQ judge likes my producted the inexperienced does not or vice versa. As I sit here and type this I ask myself why would I care? For some reason it made sense when I was typing it.


Also, that same person stated that all the tables were divided evenly between newby and veteran judges,


Thank you Robert see above.

Getting paid $300 to go to the bathroom, very nice!


First question is when do you taste your brisket? I put extra slices on a cutting board and leave them until I think the judges are eating them. At less than 30 team contests (5 tables) I assume 15 minutes after I send the box off is when a judge is eating (maybe a couple earlier).

What an Outstanding idea, I must try this in 09...Man I wish I had a original ideas like this, still nice when others share!

Well Neil, I can't say I feel your pain, 'cuz you do not know what pain is. How about 51st out of 52 in Brisket.



Was feeling so bad for Benny and Funtime BBQ last night cuz he listen to me on his brisket and did most of what I told him, he came in 48th. I thought that was bad.

Lets just say I dont think you guys are capable of a 51st, guess the judges have proven me wrong. But what do I know, most of the BBQ folks in CA see no reason for us to change anything. I guess they are right!

Sylvie
10-20-2008, 11:15 PM
I had previously planned to take the judging class at this event but decided against it simply because of the time commitment to also compete. Looking back on it, maybe it would have provided me more insight on what was emphasized and what the judges were looking for. Who knows if it really would have mattered. We can only move forward, learn from our mistakes, build on our successes, pay attention to constructive criticism and approach the next comp as a new beginning.

P.S. That presentation box was the bomb.

TOPS BBQ
10-20-2008, 11:49 PM
[quote=Bentley;762185]

Getting paid $300 to go to the bathroom, very nice!
quote]

That was the best potty break ever!:twisted::mrgreen::shock: