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jbrink01
10-06-2008, 12:13 PM
by using openly using a propane torch to glaze their brisket. They were turned in by another team (witnessed by several people). Based on the posted scores no action was taken, even though the rep indicated to the party that turned them in, that action was being taken. WTF???

U2CANQUE
10-06-2008, 12:15 PM
damn, with that I dont know who to hold more responsible, the team for doing it, or, the reps for not taking the appropriate course of actions.

jbrink01
10-06-2008, 12:17 PM
damn, with that I dont know who to hold more responsible, the team for doing it, or, the reps for not taking the appropriate course of actions. I hear ya. I'm not going to blame anyone for my poor performace except me, but..........

Big George's BBQ
10-06-2008, 12:54 PM
That is not right, and the Reps were wrong to condone that activity. Should be banned for a year

motoeric
10-06-2008, 01:42 PM
Does anyone know this team? Are they newbies and it was a mistake or was it someone taking shortcuts?

Eric

Dale P
10-06-2008, 01:52 PM
Seriously? For real?

I guess if they tried to set the glaze with wooden kitchen matches, that would be legal.:razz:

ihbobry
10-06-2008, 02:03 PM
by using openly using a propane torch to glaze their brisket. They were turned in by another team (witnessed by several people). Based on the posted scores no action was taken, even though the rep indicated to the party that turned them in, that action was being taken. WTF???

If nothing happened they didn't get caught, did they?

While I, like almost everyone else that reads this, have no information or knowledge of the events, there are a few basic things wrong,

No representitive should ever make a statement about something like that during the event, it's no ones business, nor their job in my opinion to explain actions taken or not taken after the infraction was called to their attention. The reps should have just given the team a DQ and let the team explain why or what their side is when it hits the fan if it was warrented.

paydabill
10-06-2008, 02:15 PM
I did not know about this. WTF - no action was taken. That really makes me mad. There are a lot of teams who play by the rules, and this is allowed. I think there needs to be an investigation in the REP.

jbrink01
10-06-2008, 03:42 PM
To clear a couple things up;

A team that all of us MOFO's know very well witnessed it and reported it. I have no axe to grind with anyone, especially the offending party, but, you cheat, you lose, period! Shortcut??? It was a PROPANE torch. Illegal.

I'm not going to mention team names in this open forum. I have e-mailed KCBS merely asking them to look into it and clear the air.

Bentley
10-06-2008, 04:41 PM
That is not right, and the Reps were wrong to condone that activity. Should be banned for a year


Who should be banned, the reps or the team, or...?

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION
H. Use of gas or other auxiliary heat sources inside the
cooking device.


Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules (above,

save and except #9 – 13).
Excessive or continued complaints from teams on any of the
above rule infractions shall be considered grounds for
immediate disqualification from the contest by KCBS
Representatives, Organizers and/or Security.
In addition, any violation of the above rules shall be
reported to the KCBS Board of Directors who may in
addition to the above disqualification impose additional
penalties upon the team, the head cook, and its members
including but not limited to disqualification from
competing in KCBS events for a period of time not to


exceed five years

RichardF
10-06-2008, 06:40 PM
Who should be banned, the reps or the team, or...?

CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION
H. Use of gas or other auxiliary heat sources inside the cooking device.



Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules (above,

save and except #9 – 13).

Excessive or continued complaints from teams on any of the

above rule infractions shall be considered grounds for

immediate disqualification from the contest by KCBS
Representatives, Organizers and/or Security.
In addition, any violation of the above rules shall be
reported to the KCBS Board of Directors who may in
addition to the above disqualification impose additional
penalties upon the team, the head cook, and its members
including but not limited to disqualification from
competing in KCBS events for a period of time not to






exceed five years


Ummm - I don't practice law, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week. To be disqualified per the section quoted above, it sounds like the gas or other heating device would have had to be used inside the cooker. If you had the brisket on a picnic table and hit them with a torch would disqualification be the proper result based on what's provided above.

If they did use the torch outside the smoker I think the applicable rule would be -

5. Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas and electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking or holding. Need to use this rule with CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION, I. Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules (above, save and except #9 – 13) to get you were you want to be.

and always remember - 1. The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest Representatives at the contest. Their decisions andinterpretations are final.

Guess we will have to wait and see how this plays-out.

ssbbqguy
10-06-2008, 06:44 PM
As a cook, judge, and bbq taste lover, WHY would anyone want to add the taste of burnt propane to their turn-in? Do they really think good judges wouldn't detect it? Naive and dumb strategy. Reps and teams needs to be addressed very harshly if the rules were broken that blatantly. Steve.

Bentley
10-06-2008, 06:49 PM
Ummm - I don't practice law, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week. To be disqualified per the section quoted above, it sounds like the gas or other heating device would have had to be used inside the cooker. If you had the brisket on a picnic table and hit them with a torch would disqualification be the proper result based on what's provided above.

If they did use the torch outside the smoker I think the applicable rule would be -

5. Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas and electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking or holding. Need to use this rule with CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION, I. Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules (above, save and except #9 – 13) to get you were you want to be.

and always remember - 1. The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest Representatives at the contest. Their decisions andinterpretations are final.

Guess we will have to wait and see how this plays-out.


Good points, I dont know! Seems to me nither would apply. Could one argue it is already cooked, so gas was not used for either?

JohnMcD348
10-06-2008, 07:25 PM
It sounds to me like someone came up with a way around a rule that needs to have further stipulations added.

They could easily argue that the torch had no cooking effect on the meat, it only was used to set the glaze. That portion could be considered a cooking process just as easily as it could be argued it wasn't.

matthew burt
10-06-2008, 07:38 PM
I would think the reps would of had to catch them in the act in person.

paydabill
10-06-2008, 08:35 PM
What -Reps catch them in the act? A rep hardly ever goes around to the spots. It takes the honesty of the teams to turn it in.

They were trying to put a crust on their brisket after being in foil, is what they were probably doing.

I think the rep should be put on probation and the team be banned.

KC_Bobby
10-06-2008, 10:22 PM
Without naming the team that did this ... any idea if they are new(ish) or was it an established team? Did they get a call or overall top 10?

If it was a first time team, I think a DQ in catagory is acceptable from the rep. If it was a team who has cooked before, an overall comp DQ is needed. If the team is established and has received a few calls in the past, a harsher penalty is in line.

BBQchef33
10-06-2008, 11:15 PM
years agao during our first contests, I asked if a butane torch can be used on cooked chicken to crisp the skin and set the glaze....Same one used to glazed deserts and carmelize sugars.

I was told NO and it is grounds for a DQ.

HoDeDo
10-06-2008, 11:30 PM
Ummm - I don't practice law, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week. To be disqualified per the section quoted above, it sounds like the gas or other heating device would have had to be used inside the cooker. If you had the brisket on a picnic table and hit them with a torch would disqualification be the proper result based on what's provided above.

If they did use the torch outside the smoker I think the applicable rule would be -

5. Fires shall be of wood, wood pellets or charcoal. Gas and electric heat sources shall not be permitted for cooking or holding. Need to use this rule with CAUSES FOR DISQUALIFICATION & EVICTION, I. Violation of any of the KCBS Cook’s Rules (above, save and except #9 – 13) to get you were you want to be.

and always remember - 1. The decision and interpretations of the KCBS Rules and Regulations are at the discretion of the KCBS Contest Representatives at the contest. Their decisions andinterpretations are final.

Guess we will have to wait and see how this plays-out.

years ago I asked if a butane torch can be used on cooked chicken to crisp the skin and set the glaze....Same one used to glazed deserts and carmelize sugars.

I was told NO and it is grounds for a DQ.

I have heard both arguements on this one. The rule is unclear... and how far do you take it? If you do twist it and say that you are just using it to set sauce/complete presentation... do you also tell folks they cant finish, with hot sauce unless the pan was heated on the cooker ( not a propane stove or microwave in a camper?) I know, splitting hairs... not trying to be inflamatory.

IMHO - any direct heat source on the meat, is cooking or holding the temp and should be grounds for a DQ for at least that catagory. I would look for a pattern before I would suggest banning the team for any length of time... The board would have to look at the "bigger picture" and determine what the right course of action is, after proper review.

Tough based on the hair-splitting someone could do to help speculate

jminion
10-06-2008, 11:46 PM
Using a gas torch to set a glaze is grounds for DQ if a team was to be found doing it again it could be grounds for a two year ban. As a Rep if you didn't see it you would need more than one complaint or more than one witness to make the call.

I would go to the team and ask them if they used a gas torch on the turn-in. If they were truthful, I would DQ the entry and explain what the full extent of this practice could be with up to a two year ban. If they were to say that they didn't do it, it would be he said she said unless more were to come forward with the same complaint.

The situation would have to be reported to the BOD and let them investigate. It is the BOD job to make any further rulings.

If I saw it as the Rep the DQ would be required. Without seeing it you have to gather information and make the best call available to you at the time.

River City Smokehouse
10-07-2008, 07:39 AM
Without naming the team that did this ... any idea if they are new(ish) or was it an established team? Did they get a call or overall top 10?

If it was a first time team, I think a DQ in catagory is acceptable from the rep. If it was a team who has cooked before, an overall comp DQ is needed. If the team is established and has received a few calls in the past, a harsher penalty is in line.
It is my understanding that this is the 3rd year this team has competed. They were no threat in this contest, at least.

cmcadams
10-07-2008, 07:54 AM
It is my understanding that this is the 3rd year this team has competed. They were no threat in this contest, at least.

What does their placement have to do with integrity?

I know that's not necessarily what you meant, but the original post also said something about placement coming into use to decide if something would be done.

If they cheated, they cheated, whether it brought them a top placement or DAL. Situational ethics don't come into play.

jbrink01
10-07-2008, 08:45 AM
They did get a top 5 call.

River City Smokehouse
10-07-2008, 08:45 AM
What does their placement have to do with integrity?

I know that's not necessarily what you meant, but the original post also said something about placement coming into use to decide if something would be done.

If they cheated, they cheated, whether it brought them a top placement or DAL. Situational ethics don't come into play.
Curt.
I wholeheartedly agree that no matter where they placed, the team, the rep., and the organizer are all at fault and something should be done about it. If nothing is done, then the credibility of the KCBS is shot out the window. Do I think anything will be done? No, nothing more than a warning. Is that enough? Not for a 3rd year team. The organizer as I understand knew about it too. To me this is something that should not be left alone. I'm just glad that they didn't get into more money than they did. What they did get is still too much.

paydabill
10-07-2008, 08:52 AM
What does their placement have to do with integrity?

I know that's not necessarily what you meant, but the original post also said something about placement coming into use to decide if something would be done.

If they cheated, they cheated, whether it brought them a top placement or DAL. Situational ethics don't come into play.


I totaly agree with you - it does not matter if they palced DAL - they cheated, they should be DQ.

This really goes to a bigger point that is wrong wit hsociety (oh no hear I get on my soap box). We do not hold people accountable abymore. We rather give people the benefit of the doubt rather than hold them accountable.

timzcardz
10-07-2008, 08:56 AM
It is all to easy too pass judgement on the team, rep, organizer, KCBS, etc., but does anyone that is posting here have actual first hand knowledge, that is, actually witnessed the torch application take place?

Now if the complainant had taken a picture, there would be no he said/she said argument, or a "no picture it never happened" defense.

jbrink01
10-07-2008, 09:10 AM
The witnesses are very credible, and if nothing is done, I will find it very hard to put my money down to do another contest, especially on Mike McMillen's watch.

JohnMcD348
10-07-2008, 10:41 AM
Perhaps there needs to be a rule change for clarification. Something along the lines of saying all sources of heat for food cooking and preparation must be provided by wood, charcoal, wood products etc. Under no circumstances will any gas or gas byproduct be used for competition purposes.

Now with that being said, it would mean that even if I used my Coleman stove to heat water for preparing or warming my sauce prior to application would qualify for grounds of a DQ. Even using it to heat the water to clean could be included. I would have to use the cooker to provide the heat to heat my water, warm my sauce, etc.

Kind of harsh but at least it would alleviate any question on what can and cannot be used.

Bentley
10-07-2008, 11:11 AM
The witnesses are very credible, and if nothing is done, I will find it very hard to put my money down to do another contest, especially on Mike McMillen's watch.


I am afraid this is the damage...This is the damage the promoter and scantioning body need to be aware of.

And I agree with your response.

jbrink01
10-07-2008, 11:15 AM
I am afraid this is the damage...This is the damage the promoter and scantioning body need to be aware of.

And I agree with your response.

I tend to be a bit of a hot head. I'm sure I will compete again, just have to get past the bitterness.

TN_BBQ
10-07-2008, 11:26 AM
Good points, I dont know! Seems to me nither would apply. Could one argue it is already cooked, so gas was not used for either?

That would be a tough argument because the definition of "cooker/smoker" describes a very wide array of cooking aparatuses (or is is aparati?) and not necessarily just the large grills & smokers we are all very familiar with. "Cooker" is meant to include anything that applies heat to meat.

Using a propane torch is not allowed. If for no other reason, it would violate the rules associated with fuel (wood, coal, etc.).

Bottom line, this ain't good and should not be allowed.I wouldn't go overboard with any punishment, even though it is a violation of a rule. I would think disqualifying them from that event and placing them on probation would be sufficient.

FWIW, these sort of things (basics) ought to be covered in the cooks meeting even though they are listed in the rule book. I suspect this topic will be brought up next year at the cook's meeting.

CivilWarBBQ
10-07-2008, 01:16 PM
Bottom line, this ain't good and should not be allowed.I wouldn't go overboard with any punishment, even though it is a violation of a rule. I would think disqualifying them from that event and placing them on probation would be sufficient.



I agree. Could be a new team, or somebody who wasn't thinking straight after staying up all night and/or enjoying too many adult beverages. Anyone can make a mistake. We don't give out the death penalty for shoplifting after all...

paydabill
10-07-2008, 02:09 PM
I agree. Could be a new team, or somebody who wasn't thinking straight after staying up all night and/or enjoying too many adult beverages. Anyone can make a mistake. We don't give out the death penalty for shoplifting after all...


You are right - you do not give out the death penalty for shoplifiting. However, you would still go to jail and pay a fine.

In this case nothing was done. If I read the post correctly, they were still allowed to turn in the brisket, they were not DQ.

As for having a picture - that made me chuckle. So now having people witness something is not enough. We need to cary cameras around, wow I wish I could use that arguement to get out of a speedign ticket - "officer did you take a picture of me speeding, no, well then it did not happen."

Merl
10-07-2008, 02:20 PM
This complaint was sent to KCBS. The Board has asked for and received comments from the contest reps. I can verify that is was a new team first time cooking. I mention that in mitigation, not an excuse for a possible violation of rules. I cannot discuss the matter further pending the next board meeting. I did want you to know tThe Board will adress the issue at its next board meeting.
Merl Whitebook
mwhitebook@kcbs.us

timzcardz
10-07-2008, 03:00 PM
As for having a picture - that made me chuckle. So now having people witness something is not enough. We need to cary cameras around, wow I wish I could use that arguement to get out of a speedign ticket - "officer did you take a picture of me speeding, no, well then it did not happen."

I'm glad. It was supposed to make you chuckle. The Brethren Mantra "no picture it never happened" was the first thing that popped into my warped head when reading this.

BTW, if you were lucky enough to get pulled over by an officer that was also a Brethren, I would be willing to bet that he would chuckle and you'd get off with a warning.

Big George's BBQ
10-07-2008, 03:10 PM
Thank you Merl for the info. This should be included in the cooks meeting at each event- esp for the first time competitors

RichardF
10-07-2008, 03:55 PM
...We don't give out the death penalty for shoplifting after all...

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/rickos_pics/6991872.jpg

Don't do the crime if ya can't take the time :wink:

Podge
10-07-2008, 04:03 PM
This goes to show, how when first time teams, at a cook's meeting, raise their hands that it's their first contest, should be made to listen to the C.D.

Rules are Rules, and penalties should be enforced regardless of lack of knowledge. The rules are available on the website, and again at the cook's meeting. they are there in front of people. It's not like KCBS is trying to hide it.

Dale P
10-08-2008, 07:42 AM
This goes to show, how when first time teams, at a cook's meeting, raise their hands that it's their first contest, should be made to listen to the C.D.

Rules are Rules, and penalties should be enforced regardless of lack of knowledge. The rules are available on the website, and again at the cook's meeting. they are there in front of people. It's not like KCBS is trying to hide it.



I agree, lack of knowledge is not a good enough excuse for not using common sense. :tongue:
We still heat up our Kraft Original in our cooker just to make sure we arent bending the rules..
Sounds like the KCBS is on top of it anyhow,

watg?
10-08-2008, 08:08 AM
This goes to show, how when first time teams, at a cook's meeting, raise their hands that it's their first contest, should be made to listen to the C.D.

Rules are Rules, and penalties should be enforced regardless of lack of knowledge. The rules are available on the website, and again at the cook's meeting. they are there in front of people. It's not like KCBS is trying to hide it.


Is there a more detailed rule book available, or are all of the rules contained in the 2 page PDF file on the KCBS web site. Just wondering.

Brew-B-Q
10-08-2008, 08:28 AM
I am pretty certain that the 2 page PDF is all that's out there.

Transformer BBQ
10-08-2008, 10:39 AM
Is there a more detailed rule book available, or are all of the rules contained in the 2 page PDF file on the KCBS web site. Just wondering.


Just the two pages, although there are some things that are relayed I believe to reps that are more interpretations rather than rules. Before I get jumped on, here's an example:

The question comes up often if it is legal to heat a sauce over propane, butane, in a microwave... and then apply it to your contest meat. Depending on your reading of the rules you could think this might be an infraction... where as in reality its totally legal, and KCBS has specifically addressed this.

A similar question about boiling was raised last January.... is it legal to put a meat in a pan with a liquid, or a fat? KCBS says it is legal even though boiling is not...

So there is some clarity in the gray areas in the rules... but you need to pay attention to BOD notes, especially the rules meeting that is held every january.

swamprb
10-08-2008, 12:04 PM
This is a wake up call for me, I was thinking a butane torch would come in handy at a comp. I better read the rules and forget that thought.

MAsQue
10-08-2008, 01:28 PM
This is a wake up call for me, I was thinking a butane torch would come in handy at a comp. I better read the rules and forget that thought.

Get a salamander: http://www.creativecookware.com/creme_brule_carmelizer.htm

No gas required, sets glaze & gratinees stuff like nobody's business. With minor mods can double as branding iron. :wink:

Stoke&Smoke
10-08-2008, 06:41 PM
Perhaps there needs to be a rule change for clarification. Something along the lines of saying all sources of heat for food cooking and preparation must be provided by wood, charcoal, wood products etc. Under no circumstances will any gas or gas byproduct be used for competition purposes.

Now with that being said, it would mean that even if I used my Coleman stove to heat water for preparing or warming my sauce prior to application would qualify for grounds of a DQ. Even using it to heat the water to clean could be included. I would have to use the cooker to provide the heat to heat my water, warm my sauce, etc.

Kind of harsh but at least it would alleviate any question on what can and cannot be used.


I had always interpreted the rules to say that the only heat source that could be used on the meat was wood/charcoal. Now, in the case mentioned, I would agree that a DQ would be in order, because the sauce was apparently already applied to the meat, so the flame was applied to the meat as well, but I don't know that I would take that to the extent of the sauce. (although to be honest, I'd never thought of it.)

Anyone who uses a commercial sauce is using a product that was almost certainly cooked at some level by a source other than wood/charcoal. So if I make my own on site on a propane stove, is that cause for a DQ? I don't think that would be fair.

I almost did something boneheaded in my last comp. Had planned on wrapping a cooked fatty with biscuit dough and finishing it in a coleman camp oven, designed to be placed on top of a campstove burner!:eek: I overheard the guys at the site next to me talking about turning in the exact thing for their sausage entry the day before turn in and that's when I had the DUH! moment:oops:

I guess I could have done the dough in a ramped up cooker, but I just turned in the fatty without the dough.

I would say, in light of that boneheaded almost mistake, I don't know if I would ban the team. That would depend on the circumstances. If they were blatently cheating, and knew it, then a ban would be deserved, but if they were just ignorant of the rules, I would say the DQ should suffice.

I may be being naive here, but I think most of the teams I've met would agree that there is no honor in cheating, and I don't think any of us wants to win so badly that we would deliberately cheat.

Just my humble opinion

paydabill
11-06-2008, 08:54 AM
I hate to bring up a sore subject - but has this been resolved.

With the BOD elections coming up, I really want to know if the KCBS is going to be fair and true to their rules or not.

I checked last Bullsheet I recieved, there was mention that a rep was going to be put on probation, but the vote said no. IF that is related to this case, it truely will make me rethink the board and the KCBS.

I was hoping to get clarification.

Solidkick
11-06-2008, 04:26 PM
BODs.........any info to share here?

QDoc
11-06-2008, 08:43 PM
It is stressful when someone is observed " breaking the rules". Saying someone is cheating is a serious and harsh statement. It implies the person is knowingly violating the rules. I believe the way to handle these situations in an adult manner is to approach the team and express your concerns. Tell the person you think they have violated the rules but of course you are not sure. Ask them to consult a rep. You have in effect thrown the ball in their court and they, having been confronted should consult the rep and have a decision made. An honorable and honest team would do so. If your observation is ignored--- then you should consult the rep on a ruling.

jbrink01
11-07-2008, 10:25 AM
The rep was notified, and did nothing, other then tell them not to do it again. They got called, BTW.

bam
11-07-2008, 01:56 PM
If that team got a call i would pitch a you know what .

BRBBQ
11-09-2008, 03:33 AM
Ok! Since the cheating part was brought up. Has any body ever wondered about the teams that pull up in a RV or camper? Do they take the food inside their camper? I'm sure there's a gas/ electric stove in these things, someone could do a switch a roo once inside. Out of site out of mind. One will never know! By no means am I saying any of these teams cheat! But I'm sure someone has thought about it.

Double D's BBQ
11-09-2008, 04:28 AM
Sure it's possible but what would be the point? Do you really think it's possible to make superior BBQ in a tiny RV kitchen than with the equipment most teams cook on?

Sidw
11-09-2008, 06:15 PM
Sure it's possible but what would be the point? Do you really think it's possible to make superior BBQ in a tiny RV kitchen than with the equipment most teams cook on?


I don't know - a high tech crock-pot and a RV - hard for teams to compete with that!http://www.bbq-brethren.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

beam boys bbq
11-09-2008, 09:24 PM
i have an full kitchen in my rv and an gas stove and any one is welocme to walk threw at any time if they want
but the people that know me know i don't use any of that on the contest because i have it all in there for cattering jobs
the person that will not let you walk threw when ever you want is the one that you need to watch :eusa_clap


york

paydabill
11-10-2008, 08:57 AM
To get back on target - I guess the silence from the BODs means that nothing has happen and nothing will happen.

So this is true;

a team can cheat, get caught and turned into a rep, that rep talks to the team, and then the team gets a call. Nothing happens to the team or the Rep for a clear violation of rules.

WOW - throw integrity out the window.

lunchlady
11-10-2008, 09:19 AM
I cannot discuss the matter further pending the next board meeting. I did want you to know The Board will adress the issue at its next board meeting.
Merl Whitebook
mwhitebook@kcbs.us

I didn't think that was silence... that was answering as much as he could.
I guess you just stay tuned...

CritterCook
11-10-2008, 11:49 AM
i have an full kitchen in my rv and an gas stove and any one is welocme to walk threw at any time if they want
but the people that know me know i don't use any of that on the contest because i have it all in there for cattering jobs
the person that will not let you walk threw when ever you want is the one that you need to watch :eusa_clap


york


I can attest to the fact that York does not use any of those appliances in his RV. I am constantly walking through his vehicle. (thats were he keeps the booze):-D:-D

beam boys bbq
11-10-2008, 06:50 PM
I can attest to the fact that York does not use any of those appliances in his RV. I am constantly walking through his vehicle. (thats were he keeps the booze):-D:-D
\

atta boy :icon_shy

paydabill
11-11-2008, 09:42 AM
I didn't think that was silence... that was answering as much as he could.
I guess you just stay tuned...

If you read my last post or the Bullsheet - they had a meeting. There is mention about disciplinary actions for a rep but probation was voted down. Merl voted yes, but I am wandering if these two are the same.

Or once again we find that KCBS has little to know control over competition cheating.

jbrink01
11-12-2008, 10:43 PM
Just got an e-mail from Carol. Team is being sent a suspension letter - this was their 5th contest under different names. Rep received a warning.