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PatioDaddio
09-24-2008, 10:59 AM
All,

I am thinking about making two proposals to improve the KCBS score sheets, and I want to get your feedback first.

See the document below. It's pretty self-explanatory, but the idea is to include information that will make it easier to see where we stack up.

Proposal (http://docs.google.com/View?docid=df2r8vqx_8k8fnbnhs)

I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

Thanks,
John

YankeeBBQ
09-24-2008, 11:18 AM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them. Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.

ique
09-24-2008, 11:31 AM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them. Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.

I'd like to see that too. It would help with determining whether I hit a tough table or just plain sucked that day. :)

PatioDaddio
09-24-2008, 11:34 AM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them. Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.That would be nice, but I'm trying to keep this proposal in the realm of possibility. :-D :wink:

John

The Pickled Pig
09-24-2008, 01:12 PM
So are you just wanting the score sheets combined? We already get the rank for each category.

On a side note, I don't think the proposal is very practical because as I understand it, the scoring software doesn't allow for customization. If that's true, it would have to be recoded. Maybe it could be added to a wish list for future versions though.

PatioDaddio
09-24-2008, 02:23 PM
Not really combined, just more information on the two sheets to help see the big picture at a glance. As it is now, I have to flip through six pages to see the whole picture.

John

Scottie
09-24-2008, 02:33 PM
I'd rather see how I did against the others at my table. Like YankeeBBQ said.

Paola Greg
09-24-2008, 02:41 PM
Ditto Steve, Chris, and Scottie here.

PatioDaddio
09-24-2008, 02:57 PM
OK, check it now (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=df2r8vqx_8k8fnbnhs). I have kept the rank and added the table number.

John

Transformer BBQ
09-24-2008, 03:02 PM
You'd also want to see Table number on the 'Chicken' page. So you'd see... oh, 3 of the top 5 all came from table #6

rbinms33
09-24-2008, 05:35 PM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them.

I don't know what this would really tell you except that those teams were at the same table. Judging is not supposed to be comparative, each entry is scored on it's own merit. Your ribs should rank the same at that table regardless of whether Mike and Johnny are at the table with you or 5 brand new teams.

So would you change anything you did based on knowing that information? Or would it just be a curiousity thing?

Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.

I don't know how you could determine this. Tracking a single judge handing out low scores is one thing, tracking an entire table though? What would you compare it to? The other judges tables who might be getting better entries? What about the tables giving out higher than deserved scores? I see this as being as much of a disservice to a team as giving out lower than deserved scores.

Jorge
09-24-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't know what this would really tell you except that those teams were at the same table. Judging is not supposed to be comparative, each entry is scored on it's own merit. Your ribs should rank the same at that table regardless of whether Mike and Johnny are at the table with you or 5 brand new teams.

So would you change anything you did based on knowing that information? Or would it just be a curiousity thing?



I don't know how you could determine this. Tracking a single judge handing out low scores is one thing, tracking an entire table though? What would you compare it to? The other judges tables who might be getting better entries? What about the tables giving out higher than deserved scores? I see this as being as much of a disservice to a team as giving out lower than deserved scores.

There are bad tables. What Yankeebbq is talking about is a way to indentify if his entry was off or the competition was stiff, or he hit a bad table that scored everything low.

For example: If I look at my scores and see that I'm at the same table as team(s) x and y, and we are usually competitive..and we all tank I can assume it had something to do with the table. But, if I'm at the same table with those same teams, and they do well and I tank I'm more inclined to believe that it was me.

The idea isn't to focus on judges, but to remove some of the guesswork involved in interpreting scores to create or maintain a quality entry.

Did I get the general idea right, YankeeBBQ?

Scottie
09-24-2008, 06:01 PM
Yes for me. Gives me a better feel for my product for that day.

nooner
09-24-2008, 06:27 PM
This brings up a topic that I had put a lot of though into a few years ago, however the idea died when repeated attempts to offer it to KCBS went unanswered. Apparently they were already working on their software back in 2007...not sure if they ever completed it. The additional feedback that I had in the proposal predated the current idea that they were using at a contest that I attended last summer to allow the judges to leave comments on the entries. Perhaps they liked the idea.

The "mostly functional" mockup that I did was in MS Access, however the proposal to KCBS was to be written in .NET, a mySQL backend database, with a web server to house all the data with a user friendly search screen so you could look back on your scores, and anyone elses, for years to come. It would make the team of the year a real time thing to follow during the season on the KCBS website. Basically, once the data is in a database, running reports to compare judges at your table against anyone else at the same table...or even across contests couldn't be simplier (judges names removed of course to keep it fair to the judges).

Anyway, there wasn't a lot of interest in it at the time, so I don't image much has changed since then. I thought it sounded good for the competitor perspective to be able to give them more insight into seeing their scores in ways that they hadn't been able to in the past.

Here is a link if anyone wants to see what I was thinking. http://bbqonthefarm.com/BBQContestScoringSoftware.pdf


Jim

drbbq
09-24-2008, 07:28 PM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them. Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.

The FBA has that and all it seems to do is piss people off. We all know there are low scoring tables (and high) but IMO some things are best left in the dark.

rbinms33
09-24-2008, 08:17 PM
For example: If I look at my scores and see that I'm at the same table as team(s) x and y, and we are usually competitive..and we all tank I can assume it had something to do with the table. But, if I'm at the same table with those same teams, and they do well and I tank I'm more inclined to believe that it was me.

Ahhhhhhh, ok.....looking at it that way, I get it.

KC_Bobby
09-24-2008, 08:51 PM
I'd like to see the judges table number on each category so when you look at the score sheet and you see your ribs went to table 4 against Lotta bull and Johny Trigg you know how you stacked up against them. Not only that you can see if a particular table of judges is handing out lower scores then the rest of the judges tables.

The FBA has that and all it seems to do is piss people off. We all know there are low scoring tables (and high) but IMO some things are best left in the dark.

Definately an idea with pros and cons. I'd love it but man I can just imagine the fireworks - especially when a team has more then one turn in go to the low table.

PatioDaddio
09-24-2008, 10:06 PM
The FBA has that and all it seems to do is piss people off. We all know there are low scoring tables (and high) but IMO some things are best left in the dark.I agree, Ray. It seems that what many people want is to have an "Ultimate BBQ Challenge"-style judging format where we all stand there and get told to our faces why we suck. :-D :wink: I'm just looking for the existing information to be presented in a more digestible format where I can see lots of information at a glance. That's all. My ultimate request would be to develop some sort of graph format (in addition to the text) where I can easily see where I landed in the pack. This is 2008, right?

John

Rookie'48
09-24-2008, 10:42 PM
especially when a team has more then one turn in go to the low table.

Bob, in theory that isn't suppossed to happen. The reps do their best to make sure that each entry from a given team goes to a different table. Sometimes it doesn't work out like that, but that is the goal.
I know, I'm spending too much time in the judges' tent :icon_blush:.

homebbq
09-24-2008, 11:02 PM
The FBA has that and all it seems to do is piss people off.

Hey Ray... I am not sure where your getting that.. What it does, is shed some light on what occured with your entry in the contest. As we see often on a few bbq forums, people get pissed off at their scores, whether they know what went on or not.

I for one, have appreciated getting this feedback

KC_Bobby
09-24-2008, 11:48 PM
Bob, in theory that isn't suppossed to happen. The reps do their best to make sure that each entry from a given team goes to a different table. Sometimes it doesn't work out like that, but that is the goal.
I know, I'm spending too much time in the judges' tent :icon_blush:.

Yeah, I know the smaller comps do everything to try to do this. But I kinda assumed at larger comps they don't even bother trying since the chance of it happening are pretty low.

YankeeBBQ
09-25-2008, 06:34 AM
You nailed it.

There are bad tables. What Yankeebbq is talking about is a way to indentify if his entry was off or the competition was stiff, or he hit a bad table that scored everything low.

For example: If I look at my scores and see that I'm at the same table as team(s) x and y, and we are usually competitive..and we all tank I can assume it had something to do with the table. But, if I'm at the same table with those same teams, and they do well and I tank I'm more inclined to believe that it was me.

The idea isn't to focus on judges, but to remove some of the guesswork involved in interpreting scores to create or maintain a quality entry.

Did I get the general idea right, YankeeBBQ?

Wizards of 'Que
09-25-2008, 07:45 AM
Ray,
While the FBA score sheet may piss some off, the reality is most of the category winners will come off the same table. Once I realized that truth, I have been much more relaxed and can except contentest results for what they are. Contest are simple, cook the best product you can and hope you get lucky by landing on the right table. The truth can set you free.

drbbq
09-25-2008, 07:53 AM
Hey Ray... I am not sure where your getting that.. What it does, is shed some light on what occured with your entry in the contest. As we see often on a few bbq forums, people get pissed off at their scores, whether they know what went on or not.

I for one, have appreciated getting this feedback

Hi Kevin,
Just what I've seen and heard.

Sledneck
09-25-2008, 08:07 AM
Ray,
While the FBA score sheet may piss some off, the reality is most of the category winners will come off the same table. Once I realized that truth, I have been much more relaxed and can except contentest results for what they are. Contest are simple, cook the best product you can and hope you get lucky by landing on the right table. The truth can set you free.Are you serious? So what you are saying is that the triggs, the rod grays, cool smoke, mike davis, big barry etc are all that lucky? Then they should be playing the lottery not hanging in a field with us

U2CANQUE
09-25-2008, 08:29 AM
I agree that it is difficult to make changes to the product based off of scores that do not lend to knowing how the table was overall. If, as stated table 6 scored 3 of the top 5 teams and the other 2 in the top 5 are not from same table then it could be that the table scored high overall. On the other side, if scores were low, as it sometimes happens how do I know that it was bad product, compared to just a generally low scoring table...seeing the whole picture would lend itself to making adjustments in the future. I can see how being pissed off about a low scoring table could happen, but, I would rather be pissed one time than to attempt to make adjustments to a product that was decent and just scored low at that particular table.

CivilWarBBQ
09-25-2008, 12:06 PM
...I am thinking about making two proposals to improve the KCBS score sheets, and I want to get your feedback first....


I'd rather KCBS simply make the score sheet date available in the native electronic form. Allow folks who are interested to manipulate the data however they like without having to re-key everything. Since the reps already have the data on their computer it's simply a question of distribution.

butts a fire
09-25-2008, 12:26 PM
I'd rather KCBS simply make the score sheet date available in the native electronic form. Allow folks who are interested to manipulate the data however they like without having to re-key everything. Since the reps already have the data on their computer it's simply a question of distribution.


Heck it is even easier than that (I would not want to wait around for them to burn 30 cds or load up everyones thumb drive) they could have the info avaliable for download from their website then those who are interested could get it when ever they would like.

CivilWarBBQ
09-25-2008, 01:55 PM
Exactly what I meant. Physical media is so 20th Century!

PatioDaddio
09-25-2008, 03:10 PM
Exactly what I meant. Physical media is so 20th Century!I wholeheartedly agree, but I'm trying to keep this proposal within the realm of possibility. :grin: :wink:

John

Transformer BBQ
09-25-2008, 03:14 PM
I wholeheartedly agree, but I'm trying to keep this proposal within the realm of possibility. :grin: :wink:

John


but I thought your idea was to change somehtign in KCBS?... silly rabbit

PatioDaddio
09-25-2008, 04:06 PM
but I thought your idea was to change somehtign in KCBS?... silly rabbitI simply want to propose that they tweak the current score sheets to be more useful.

The KCBS isn't known for its adoption of technology, so proposing electronic score delivery is probably off the reservation. Getting table numbers on the sheets is probably a bit much also.

John

PatioDaddio
09-26-2008, 11:02 AM
I think I'll go ahead and send this idea over to the KCBS. Thanks for all the input.

John