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Bentley
09-23-2008, 03:19 PM
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n90/lwnna/Turn-in%20Boxes/IMG_2071.jpg

Would you all mind scoring this box for apperance. I will explain why I want it judged tomorrow after I hope a few responses.

Countryhb
09-23-2008, 03:38 PM
7 1/2. Garnish appears real "busy" (even though we don't get scored on garnish), ribs aren't cut even. I'd still hit it.

Harbormaster
09-23-2008, 04:03 PM
7 - 8. Probably a 7.

Papa Hogg
09-23-2008, 04:04 PM
6 - ribs are all different widths & the cuts are not straight.

NelsonC
09-23-2008, 04:09 PM
I would judge the appearance a 7.

The biggest thing I notice is how the ribs aren't evenly cut. When doing the "hollywood cut" as shown above, its hard to make them look even. The advantage to a normal cut is that they can be presented all assembled as a rack, which makes an uneven cut much less obvious. Also, I would suggest filling up the box a bit more so there is more meat and less green. I think displaying more than 6 ribs makes you shows confidence in your product and keeps your table captain happy too!

lwest99
09-23-2008, 04:15 PM
I agree with the 7's. The greeen is pretty busy although I can tell you spent a lot of time on this. I also agree about the ribs not being cut very even.

CivilWarBBQ
09-23-2008, 04:31 PM
Everyone above is dead on. 7-8 in a meat contest, though I'd give you 8-9 in a salad contest!

ModelMaker
09-23-2008, 04:33 PM
The greenery steals the show from the meat. The uneveness of the samples detract from the overall good look of the meat.
6
ModelMaker

butts a fire
09-23-2008, 04:56 PM
I think I might have to go with a 6 on it maybe a 7, I do not care for the arrangement because it draws attention away from the ribs and draws attention to the uneveness of the ribs.

butts
09-23-2008, 05:02 PM
6. Looks like you are trying to hide something. Color in uneven, the cut is uneven, sauce is uneven, the garnish is more exciting than the meat.

Not being mean, just giving an honest opinion.

CajunSmoker
09-23-2008, 05:45 PM
probably would give it a 7. Uneven cuts and the parsley between the ribs really takes away from the presentation.

rbinms33
09-23-2008, 06:19 PM
Strong 7....possible 8 depending on what it looked like in person.

big brother smoke
09-23-2008, 06:56 PM
7 but I 'd hit it!

Professor Salt
09-23-2008, 06:57 PM
Are you cutting with the rack standing up on end, or laying down flat?

Jeff_in_KC
09-23-2008, 08:18 PM
7

Uneven cut is one reason. Don't really dig the spacing between ribs. If you cut uneven by mistake, you can use them tight together with no spaces to hide that issue a bit more.

QDoc
09-23-2008, 08:57 PM
The ribs look nice but I believe you could have done a little better in slicing especially if you are submitting ribs with ample meat on each side of the bone. Slicing the ribs meat side down will allow better visualization of the rib. Additionally, laying a piece of white thread on your intended line of slice for each rib will help in producing more uniform samples. The threads allow for a preview. A secret shared. 7

NotleyQue
09-23-2008, 09:59 PM
A strong 6

Bentley
09-23-2008, 10:41 PM
First let me say thank you for the feedback! I was not offended by anything that was posted, please don't be by my response!

This was a turn in at Clovis last weekend, there has been some discussion on the CBBQA about how low the over all scores were...For an example we got 10th in Ck, 13th in Ribs, 19th in Pk and 5th in Bk, and still finished 5th out of 42 teams, I would like to know how that happens? All I can figure is lots of teams really F-Up in 1 or more category's!

Your scores were closer to what I expected than what I got. To me it is a meat contest, but I am the 1st to say when people ask for feedback on boxes, if you are gonna garnish, then damn it garnish!

I hate to see comments like your cuts are off, sauce is to thick, the greens are to busy, color is uneven...I think that is just BS, but you are just like the average judge, it should not matter but it does. Its a Farken meat contest, what the hell does it matter how the fricken rib is cut, or the color is off (I have been competing 6 years & I don't know what that means), or if the sauce is even!

As I cut the farken ribs I knew they were gonna look bad it the box. Wanted to Hollywood them, but a BB does not lend itself well to this cut! Did it anyway! As I look back at the box I think I would have given it a 7 if I was judging it.

I think you that gave a 6 are a little low, if you think that is an "average" rib turn in I would very much like to see what you think a 9 is? Is a 9 possible in your mind?

Your scores 77677766677776.

The judges scores 6 8 9 9 9 7...Go figure!

Thanks again for the input.

buttrubbersbbq
09-24-2008, 05:58 AM
This appearence judging has always bugged me. I think garnish should be banned and only a piece of foil or butcher paper allowed in. I dont mind being judged on taste or texture but being told my pieces of brisket are to wavy or not all the same size I agree is BS. never went to a resturaunt or friends house and said "well would have been perfect but none of my ribs were cut straight, work on that before serving me again please" I like to know my meal is made to eat and not look like a processed piece of something that came from oscar mayer. I liked your box fine but cant really tell you what i thought of them, didnt taste them.
vent over

J Appledog
09-24-2008, 06:18 AM
I hate to see comments like your cuts are off, sauce is to thick, the greens are to busy, color is uneven...I think that is just BS

Excuse me, but didn't you ask for those comments? The cuts do look sloppy. The sauce is not evenly applied. It's a nice looking box, but with just a little more attention to detail it could have gotten even more 9s from your generous judges.

I suspect that it might have been difficult to close the lid with all that lettuce sticking out.

ihbobry
09-24-2008, 06:34 AM
The judges scores 6 8 9 9 9 7...Go figure!


I figure you had some generous judges. Not because you had rough cuts, not because the box is rather green, but because it looks like you just tossed them in the box. Maybe it's the angle of the picture?

rbinms33
09-24-2008, 07:14 AM
First let me say thank you for the feedback! I was not offended by anything that was posted, please don't be by my response!

None taken. You're just trying to figure out why you get scored the way you do. I don't normally elaborate on threads like these but I do believe you're looking for honest feedback so let me try to offer a little more from my own judging perspective.

Your scores were closer to what I expected than what I got. To me it is a meat contest, but I am the 1st to say when people ask for feedback on boxes, if you are gonna garnish, then damn it garnish!

I agree with you but offer this caveat. Garnish is made to enhance a presentation, not overpower it. And while garnish can add to the overall appearance of a box, it can just as easily detract from it. You can do just as good, if not better, with less in your box.

I hate to see comments like your cuts are off, sauce is to thick, the greens are to busy, color is uneven...I think that is just BS, but you are just like the average judge, it should not matter but it does. Its a Farken meat contest, what the hell does it matter how the fricken rib is cut, or the color is off (I have been competing 6 years & I don't know what that means), or if the sauce is even!

There is a large tool company that has the following slogan, "Details make the difference". Details like the ones you mention above are what makes the difference between the 7 I gave you and the 9 you could have gotten. With that said, I will also offer this up. Always concentrate on making it pretty by cooking it right instead of cooking it to look pretty. I've given 6's before on appearance just to turn around and give the same entry 8's and 9's on tenderness and taste. A better tasting rib will kick the crap out of a better looking rib each and every time. Just out of curiousity, what were your tenderness and taste scores?

I think you that gave a 6 are a little low, if you think that is an "average" rib turn in I would very much like to see what you think a 9 is? Is a 9 possible in your mind?

Your scores 77677766677776.

The judges scores 6 8 9 9 9 7...Go figure!

Just as I see (IMHO) unwarranted 6's handed out at contests, I also see my share of (again IMHO) unwarranted 9's as well. However, that's the result of 6 individuals interpreting how they've been taught to judge.

BBQ_Mayor
09-24-2008, 07:27 AM
7. Too much garnish, it's taking the focus away from the meat. Add more ribs if you can.

Do you know what percent of CBJ's you had at this contest? I would guess the 9's came from non CBJ's.

lunchlady
09-24-2008, 07:59 AM
7 maybe an 8 if I was there
...and I wrote down what I thought before I read the rest of the thread...

ribs look real yummy... nice color and they looked moist too, wished I could've eaten one
but...
it is the details that make a 'strong' 7 into an 8 or even a 9 (and, yes I have given a rib box all 9's)

... cuts are uneven, although the Hollywood is nice, straighter would be better.
... a LOT of greens, it is distracting my eyes from the ribs. nice layout though.
... every rib has tong marks or something smudging an otherwise great-looking glaze.

Jeff_in_KC
09-24-2008, 09:04 AM
While you may not agree that uneven cuts should be a ding against you, there is an appearance score which is every bit as much an area that thorough judging of meat should have. Watch Food Network - every whacked out type of food competition has some sort of appearance score as a component of overall scoring. And go to any decent restaurant and you'll see they go to great lengths to make their food LOOK GOOD on the plate. Serve me a strip or ribeye that's just been whacked apart and looks like crap, and I'll think less of your establishment, regardless of how good it tastes.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 09:54 AM
7. Do you know what percent of CBJ's you had at this contest?

According to the reps 25% CBJ.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 09:57 AM
just out of curiousity, what were your tenderness and taste scores?



676886
786996

Porky
09-24-2008, 10:15 AM
I think it has been said already-uneven cutting of the ribs and overflowing garnish---7.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 10:25 AM
Excuse me, but didn't you ask for those comments? The cuts do look sloppy. The sauce is not evenly applied. It's a nice looking box, but with just a little more attention to detail it could have gotten even more 9s from your generous judges.


I am not taking offense. The response I got here were what I expected. I just dont not believe it should matter. I posted this box because I believe there is a cross section of CBJ's and non-CBJ, just like the contest. Does it matter, yes. Weather I want to deny it or say it shouldnt it does!

What I was curious about is when I judge, I dont think I would judge down for the cut, definitly not for color or the amount of sauce or how it was applied on my ribs.

Am I judging wrong? Should I be looking at these things and judging down for them?

DMDon
09-24-2008, 02:22 PM
I am not taking offense. The response I got here were what I expected. I just dont not believe it should matter. I posted this box because I believe there is a cross section of CBJ's and non-CBJ, just like the contest. Does it matter, yes. Weather I want to deny it or say it shouldnt it does!

What I was curious about is when I judge, I dont think I would judge down for the cut, definitly not for color or the amount of sauce or how it was applied on my ribs.

Am I judging wrong? Should I be looking at these things and judging down for them?


In my opinion, yes you should be judging down for those things on the appearance part of the scoring. You already said the garnish really doesn't matter( I don't know of any top teams that would submit a turn in box without garnish, so that tells me something). If you don't take color, cut, amount of sauce, and how it looks on the ribs into consideration, what are you looking for to differenciate one box from the next? The only variables left are size and number of ribs, or else everyone should get the same score. Brother, don't get me wrong, I enjoy your posts, but don't let the high marks from the non CBJS get you thinking those "little" things don't matter. On the flip side, when the cuts are straight, the color is a deep red, they have some shine and appear moist, the garnish accents the meats so it looks like a page out of Bon Appetite you should score up.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 03:07 PM
but don't let the high marks from the non CBJS get you thinking those "little" things don't matter.

That Brother, is a pretty big assumption! You have no idea who gave me what score.

And as far as personal judging, when KCBS tells me I am to take the cut, the color or the way the sauce is brushed on the meat into consideration I will pay attention, till then I will use my personal judgment!

ihbobry
09-24-2008, 03:13 PM
On the flip side, when the cuts are straight, the color is a deep red, they have some shine and appear moist, the garnish accents the meats so it looks like a page out of Bon Appetite you should score up.

Still not understanding what you are after... especially when you choose to ignore this part of his post in favor of a sharp repartee.

You really don't see the difference?

Bentley
09-24-2008, 03:19 PM
Still not understanding what you are after... especially when you choose to ignore this part of his post in favor of a sharp repartee.

You really don't see the difference?


No I dont.

Where are we instructed to do this? Is it a personal prefference he is bring to his judging? Why they am I wrong to bring my interpretation.

J Appledog
09-24-2008, 03:19 PM
...when KCBS tells me I am to take the cut, the color or the way the sauce is brushed on the meat into consideration ...

It is not the job of the KCBS to tell cooks how to present meat entries, Bentley.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 03:24 PM
It is not the job of the KCBS to tell cooks how to present meat entries, Bentley.


Your right its not. I was refering to how judges are to judge the meat. And they dont say anything about taking the cut, the color or how the fricken sauce is brushed on the meat either. I may be wrong? If I am someone please show me where it shows this so the next time I judge I can apply these rules!

Scottie
09-24-2008, 03:28 PM
Would it fall under appearance?

Q Haven
09-24-2008, 03:30 PM
6 or 7 depending on my mood that day....

J Appledog
09-24-2008, 03:31 PM
There are no such rules. The folks here who have responded have given you some excellent tips. Keep them in mind the next time you put a rib box together. A lot of little tips together can make a big difference.

Perhaps you might consider taking a KCBS judging class. Or a class taught by one of the best KCBS cooks. You can find that info on the KCBS website and in the Bullsheet.

Jacked UP BBQ
09-24-2008, 03:33 PM
I got the answer to end all 999999999999999999999999999999999999.

DMDon
09-24-2008, 03:46 PM
That Brother, is a pretty big assumption! You have no idea who gave me what score.

And as far as personal judging, when KCBS tells me I am to take the cut, the color or the way the sauce is brushed on the meat into consideration I will pay attention, till then I will use my personal judgment!


You didn't answer my question. If you don't take color, cut, amount of sauce, and how it looks on the ribs into consideration, what are you looking for to differenciate one box from the next? What criteria make up your personal judgement?

ihbobry
09-24-2008, 03:53 PM
No I dont.

Where are we instructed to do this? Is it a personal prefference he is bring to his judging? Why they am I wrong to bring my interpretation.

What would you give your box based on the picture? Based on your impression turning it in? Why for both?

Jorge
09-24-2008, 03:53 PM
Your right its not. I was refering to how judges are to judge the meat. And they dont say anything about taking the cut, the color or how the fricken sauce is brushed on the meat either. I may be wrong? If I am someone please show me where it shows this so the next time I judge I can apply these rules!

It's about attention to detail. If my ribs taste like yours, and are as tender as yours, but my knife isn't as sharp, or my cut isn't as straight, and a judge notices it...it SHOULD make a difference.

Results are available on the KCBS website. Take a look at how close many/most contests are at the top. It's the attention to detail that separates the winners.

If you want to be judged at that level, you will take the advice given to heart.

Scottie
09-24-2008, 03:56 PM
Spot on right Jorge... I've lost a championship this year by a .5.. I know others have lost it by .0008... Details win or lose a contest for you...

Papa Hogg
09-24-2008, 03:57 PM
You didn't answer my question. If you don't take color, cut, amount of sauce, and how it looks on the ribs into consideration, what are you looking for to differenciate one box from the next? What criteria make up your personal judgement?

If you don't judge appearence on these things then what are you judging the appearence on???

Bentley
09-24-2008, 03:59 PM
Perhaps you might consider taking a KCBS judging class. Or a class taught by one of the best KCBS cooks. You can find that info on the KCBS website and in the Bullsheet.

I did, in KC in 2003 from Ed! Good idea for any team, I agree!

Bentley
09-24-2008, 04:04 PM
You didn't answer my question. If you don't take color, cut, amount of sauce, and how it looks on the ribs into consideration, what are you looking for to differenciate one box from the next? What criteria make up your personal judgement?


It is overall apperance, I just dont think a wrong brush strok or a rib that is not perfectly symetrical makes a difference. Do I want to eat it, that is my primary mode of distinction. If the sauce stroke is wrong or the cut is not right does not make it look less appitizing to me, to some of you it may make a difference!

Bentley
09-24-2008, 04:05 PM
What would you give your box based on the picture? Based on your impression turning it in? Why for both?


Look at my post with the scores.

jbrink01
09-24-2008, 04:07 PM
I hate to see comments like your cuts are off, sauce is to thick, the greens are to busy, color is uneven...I think that is just BS, but you are just like the average judge, it should not matter but it does. Its a Farken meat contest, what the hell does it matter how the fricken rib is cut, or the color is off (I have been competing 6 years & I don't know what that means), or if the sauce is even!

As I cut the farken ribs I knew they were gonna look bad it the box. Wanted to Hollywood them, but a BB does not lend itself well to this cut! Did it anyway! As I look back at the box I think I would have given it a 7 if I was judging it.

I think you that gave a 6 are a little low, if you think that is an "average" rib turn in I would very much like to see what you think a 9 is? Is a 9 possible in your mind?

Your scores 77677766677776.

The judges scores 6 8 9 9 9 7...Go figure!

Thanks again for the input.

Been following along, and this is the post that bothers me. I give this box a 6. When I took my CBJ class, the samples were pathetic, albeit intentionaly so. The rep's were trying to make the point, and did it with me several times, that the 4's and 5's I was handing out were unwarranted. That the teams had worked hard, and that a 4 was harsh.

I disagree, if you want to play in the big leagues, be ready to take a few hits. EVRYTHING matters. It's a BBQ contest, not just a meat contest. All of the little things combine to provide a presence, a "how much do I want to eat this" feeling. These leave me way short of perfection.

You suggest above that perfection may only exist in my mind. You are wrong. I have seen it, and I have on the rare occassion felt I produced it. To me, perfection in ribs vs. these is; darker, "stickier", more even, and a little less flamboyant garnish.

In my mind, 4 issues = 4 points lost.

jbrink01
09-24-2008, 04:09 PM
It is overall apperance, I just dont think a wrong brush strok or a rib that is not perfectly symetrical makes a difference. Do I want to eat it, that is my primary mode of distinction. If the sauce stroke is wrong or the cut is not right does not make it look less appitizing to me, to some of you it may make a difference!

I believe sir, that you are wrong. Everything conspires to create a pleasing pallete. Just as artists work in canvas and oil, some of the guys on this forum use the styrofoam box and meat as their canvas, and they are good at it!

DMDon
09-24-2008, 04:11 PM
It is overall apperance, I just dont think a wrong brush strok or a rib that is not perfectly symetrical makes a difference. Do I want to eat it, that is my primary mode of distinction. If the sauce stroke is wrong or the cut is not right does not make it look less appitizing to me, to some of you it may make a difference!


Ok, let me ask this another way. Without knowing what they will taste like, what makes you want to eat one box more than another? What are the factors that help you make that decision?

Scottie
09-24-2008, 04:13 PM
It is overall apperance, I just dont think a wrong brush strok or a rib that is not perfectly symetrical makes a difference. Do I want to eat it, that is my primary mode of distinction. If the sauce stroke is wrong or the cut is not right does not make it look less appitizing to me, to some of you it may make a difference!

so how do you lose points? As it sounds like your scale is either 9 or 5.... No in between. A bad cut, minus a point? A bad sauce, minus a point? et al.

ihbobry
09-24-2008, 04:22 PM
Look at my post with the scores.


Trying to avoid the bad Karma so I repose the question...

What's does an Average rib look like to you? Frayed edges.. bare spots? Boiled looking? Piled like a fist full of whatever dropped on a plate?

Your driving a conversation and being given a lot of room because people on this board may just be the politest on the internet. Please stop being so coy and answer the questions before I assign you get the ignore user designation Sled used to occupy. :-P:twisted:

Jorge
09-24-2008, 04:29 PM
It is overall apperance, I just dont think a wrong brush strok or a rib that is not perfectly symetrical makes a difference. Do I want to eat it, that is my primary mode of distinction. If the sauce stroke is wrong or the cut is not right does not make it look less appitizing to me, to some of you it may make a difference!


See my post above. I can look at individual entries and score them seperately, and apply the same standard.

If your cut isn't clean, it will cost you. If your cut isn't straight, it will cost you. If your sauce/glaze isn't even, it will cost you. If your sauce is just a little too strong to really taste the meat, it will cost you. If your meat is so salty that it overpowers the sauce and forces me to guzzle water, it will cost you.

Some people might call that arbitrary, but I call it subjective. The fact of the matter is that judging is subjective. You asked for input on your box, and you got it. The judges at your event, according to your post were more generous than the cooks and judges here.

What point are you trying to make, or what is it that you are trying to learn or understand? Reading the entire thread I'm not sure what else you want to gain from this.

ihbobry
09-24-2008, 04:32 PM
EVRYTHING matters.

Bentley...That's why there is an appearance score, may not be defined, but a ragged edges uneven cut because you need to save your rack, or don't care presentation with sauce applied just like Mr. Kraft would have done is what you want... I'd say you got it... and need to stop laughing and pointing @ the judges that scored you too high. (by your own admission)

Bentley
09-24-2008, 04:47 PM
Been following along, and this is the post that bothers me. I give this box a 6. When I took my CBJ class, the samples were pathetic, albeit intentionaly so. The rep's were trying to make the point, and did it with me several times, that the 4's and 5's I was handing out were unwarranted. That the teams had worked hard, and that a 4 was harsh.

I disagree, if you want to play in the big leagues, be ready to take a few hits. EVRYTHING matters. It's a BBQ contest, not just a meat contest. All of the little things combine to provide a presence, a "how much do I want to eat this" feeling. These leave me way short of perfection.

You suggest above that perfection may only exist in my mind. You are wrong. I have seen it, and I have on the rare occassion felt I produced it. To me, perfection in ribs vs. these is; darker, "stickier", more even, and a little less flamboyant garnish.

In my mind, 4 issues = 4 points lost.


Should be a 5 then, not a 6!

Bentley
09-24-2008, 04:48 PM
Ok, let me ask this another way. Without knowing what they will taste like, what makes you want to eat one box more than another? What are the factors that help you make that decision?


Dont know till I see the box.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Please stop being so coy and answer the questions before I assign you get the ignore user designation Sled used to occupy. :-P:twisted:

No one is making you read this thread! LOL

DMDon
09-24-2008, 05:06 PM
No one is making you read this thread! LOL


Good point!! Makes my decision on how to proceed much easier. See YA

Bentley
09-24-2008, 05:29 PM
What point are you trying to make, or what is it that you are trying to learn or understand? Reading the entire thread I'm not sure what else you want to gain from this.


At first to see if the judging at Clovis would be roughly the same as here. I thought there would be enough of a cross section of Brethren who cook on teams, CBJ’s who don’t and people who have done neither.

After seeing some of the post regarding why people were scoring down, I tried to figure out why. I took the CBJ class from Ed Roith at The Royal in 2003 before we competed. Granted I was an Oiler then and do not remember everything from that weekend, but I do remember most of that class. I do not remember any instruction for grading the meats based on, how it was cut, or how the sauce was applied, or what color the ribs were. I am serious with these next comments…Maybe things have changed? I am guilty of it myself; I just told the one Brethren that I gave his brisket a 7 because the slices were “wavy”. It appears to me, the some of the people judging this box, judged it based on the way the color of the ribs looked, the cut or some other factor. Where were you taught this? That is now my main concern. Have I been out of the loop? Did I miss something that has changed in judging? We do not have continuing ED. Hell for that matter, I got feed up with KCBS an am no longer a member, so I am an ex-CBJ I guess.

It seems to me I am made to feel my judging is wrong if I do not score down for these issues, but you are right for taking points off. Why is my personal interpretation less valid then yours? Where is the consistency in the training of judges?


Like I said in an earlier post, maybe I am suppose to be judging off for this stuff, but I have not seen anyone show we where it is written!

Thanks for asking Jorge.

TOPS BBQ
09-24-2008, 05:33 PM
Bentley,

I was there and I ended up placing 30th in ribs. I know my ribs are not the best, but it's something I have been working on. After reading this thread, I agree with most of what's been said. I have judged a couple of comps myself and when I see angled ribs or miscut meat, I will not score them as high. We are supposed to or are striving to be the best, so why should we get upset when our scores reflect what we turned in? Albeit, there are instances that don't warrant bad scores, but those are not as common. Since you shared, this is my turn-in. I too cut "Hollywood Style" and had some angled pieces. After looking at the pic, I saw uneven garnish and muddied sauce on the rib.

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s39/topsbbq/08%20Clovis/Ribs2.jpg

Bentley
09-24-2008, 06:03 PM
when I see angled ribs or miscut meat, I will not score them as high.

I understand why you are scoring down, I would like to know where you learned it? Are you a CBJ? Were you taught in your class to score down for a rib you percieve as being uneven?

CajunSmoker
09-24-2008, 06:51 PM
At first to see if the judging at Clovis would be roughly the same as here. I thought there would be enough of a cross section of Brethren who cook on teams, CBJ’s who don’t and people who have done neither.

After seeing some of the post regarding why people were scoring down, I tried to figure out why. I took the CBJ class from Ed Roith at The Royal in 2003 before we competed. Granted I was an Oiler then and do not remember everything from that weekend, but I do remember most of that class. I do not remember any instruction for grading the meats based on, how it was cut, or how the sauce was applied, or what color the ribs were. I am serious with these next comments…Maybe things have changed? I am guilty of it myself; I just told the one Brethren that I gave his brisket a 7 because the slices were “wavy”. It appears to me, the some of the people judging this box, judged it based on the way the color of the ribs looked, the cut or some other factor. Where were you taught this? That is now my main concern. Have I been out of the loop? Did I miss something that has changed in judging? We do not have continuing ED. Hell for that matter, I got feed up with KCBS an am no longer a member, so I am an ex-CBJ I guess.

It seems to me I am made to feel my judging is wrong if I do not score down for these issues, but you are right for taking points off. Why is my personal interpretation less valid then yours? Where is the consistency in the training of judges?


Like I said in an earlier post, maybe I am suppose to be judging off for this stuff, but I have not seen anyone show we where it is written!

Thanks for asking Jorge.

Quite honestly Bentley, I'm not sure that any score I give on a box online, is anywhere close to what I would actually score that box at a comp. I have the luxury of looking at the picture for as long as I like where at a comp I have only a fleeting glance.

Desertdog
09-24-2008, 09:26 PM
I thought I recognized those ribs! Bent, I gave them a 4 for apperance at Hesperia. But for taste and texture, 9's across the board! :biggrin:

jtfisher63
09-24-2008, 09:26 PM
What were your scores Robert?

jtfisher63
09-24-2008, 09:48 PM
Well since Robert shared so will I. Here's our rib turn in from Clovis last weekend. Sorry for the blurry pic, apparently I need some help in the photography dept. The appearance scores were 8 7 7 7 6 8. I feel they were fair. 27th out of 42 teams.

Bentley
09-24-2008, 09:53 PM
I thought I recognized those ribs! Bent, I gave them a 4 for apperance at Hesperia. But for taste and texture, 9's across the board! :biggrin:


I did spares at Hesperia...IBCA remember! And they were 1st!

Bentley
09-24-2008, 09:56 PM
Well since Robert shared so will I. Here's our rib turn in from Clovis last weekend. Sorry for the blurry pic, apparently I need some help in the photography dept. The appearance scores were 8 7 7 7 6 8. I feel they were fair. 27th out of 42 teams.

Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.

jtfisher63
09-24-2008, 10:12 PM
Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.

I agree, those are all thing we try to not do, but as many of you know it's not always easy. The ribs were not even in color before they were even sauced, weird. Out of six racks of ribs, we still didn't get six bones we were happy with. Looking at the pic I'd give them a 6, in person they were worth a 7. Practice, practice, practice!

Desertdog
09-24-2008, 10:15 PM
I did spares at Hesperia...IBCA remember! And they were 1st!

Ohhhh yeah, that's right. They were those mushy, "fall off the bone" ribs that win at every IBCA event...it's all coming back to me now! :icon_wink


Just funnin' with ya brother. That was a great event and it was a pleasure to get to know you and Kristin. As I recall, that was the first time you ever entered spares, right?

Jeff_in_KC
09-24-2008, 10:29 PM
Well Jason, if I apply what I have learn at the Brethren site I would give you a 6. All 5 ribs are uneven, there is a group of parsely sticking out at the far end of the box, and the sauce is uneven!

If I use my system I give you an 8.

Dude, I'd take you as a judge for my product ANY day! Come on seriously! The sarcasm towards the brothers here is a little strong, don't you think? One post you made sticks out... when asked what factors determine what will cause you to score down on an entry, you replied that you don't know until you see a box. How can that be? You have to know what factors you look for! If a careless, rough slice on the ribs isn't an appearance issue, what is it? If sloppy saucing isn't an appearance issue, what would you call that? If throwing garnish isn't appearance, why not? There are many factors that come into play in appearance and I can tell you everything I look for that I consider things that affect appearance scores negatively... burnt meat, dry looking meat, inconsistent sized pieces, sloppy saucing/sauce on the garnish, poor trimming, bad slicing, too dark (burnt?) or too light (not enough rich color or anemic looking), poor balance in the box/symmetry, "out of context" meat (in ribs, brisket and sliced pork, pieces not presented in order as sliced from the meat or ribs from different slabs) and a general lack of effort on the part of the cook to make the whole box look like he had an interest in impressing me. It's not just "Does that entry make me want to eat it?" If the things I listed above don't make you decide whether or not you want to eat it, what the heck does?

Bentley
09-24-2008, 11:22 PM
Ohhhh yeah, that's right. They were those mushy, "fall off the bone" ribs that win at every IBCA event...it's all coming back to me now! :icon_wink


Just funnin' with ya brother. That was a great event and it was a pleasure to get to know you and Kristin. As I recall, that was the first time you ever entered spares, right?


No, have cooked a few IBCA...You are dead on! ..They were, the judges for IBCA are off the street and they got 1st out of 20 teams!

Bentley
09-24-2008, 11:25 PM
Dude, I'd take you as a judge for my product ANY day! Come on seriously! The sarcasm towards the brothers here is a little strong, don't you think? One post you made sticks out... when asked what factors determine what will cause you to score down on an entry, you replied that you don't know until you see a box. How can that be? You have to know what factors you look for! If a careless, rough slice on the ribs isn't an appearance issue, what is it? If sloppy saucing isn't an appearance issue, what would you call that? If throwing garnish isn't appearance, why not? There are many factors that come into play in appearance and I can tell you everything I look for that I consider things that affect appearance scores negatively... burnt meat, dry looking meat, inconsistent sized pieces, sloppy saucing/sauce on the garnish, poor trimming, bad slicing, too dark (burnt?) or too light (not enough rich color or anemic looking), poor balance in the box/symmetry, "out of context" meat (in ribs, brisket and sliced pork, pieces not presented in order as sliced from the meat or ribs from different slabs) and a general lack of effort on the part of the cook to make the whole box look like he had an interest in impressing me. It's not just "Does that entry make me want to eat it?" If the things I listed above don't make you decide whether or not you want to eat it, what the heck does?


Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?

TOPS BBQ
09-25-2008, 12:41 AM
I understand why you are scoring down, I would like to know where you learned it? Are you a CBJ? Were you taught in your class to score down for a rib you percieve as being uneven?

Sorry, I dropped out of school.:roll: I judged as to how I would want to be judged. You have to put a little more perspective on how you are being judged on this site. Here, everyone has a lot of time to analyze your entry and nitpick. At a comp, you don't get as much time.

Jason - Scores for appearance were 8, 7, 8 , 7 , 5 , 7.

The "5" judge on presentation also gave me a 6 for taste and 5 for texture. Everyone else was 7's, 8's & 9's.

ZBQ
09-25-2008, 12:49 AM
Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?

I have read this thread through and I am going to give this just one shot Bentley.

You simply shouldn't have to have each and every detail spelled out for you.

It's appearance.

It works on judging the appearance of ANYTHING.

Let me demonstrate.

Judge the following 5 photos that I took, for appearance.

10 being the best looking photo you have ever seen

1 being the worst photo you have ever seen.

I am being serious here Bentley.

What would you score them and why?

Think about it.......do I have to tell you every single detail to look for?

Does one look better to you than the other?

Does one (or more) look like chit?

Does one ( or more) look nice to you?

How did you come to that conclusion?

Why did you assign that particular score to it?

rbinms33
09-25-2008, 09:22 AM
I just went back and looked through all my judging material and other than to talk about not judging a brisket based on a smoke ring and garnish is optional, there's nothing really in there about how to judge for appearance that I could find.

I think ZBQ has hit the nail on the head though with his post above though. Very good scenario, by the way. Most of us through life experience have figured out that clean is more appealing than dirty, attractive is more appealing than repulsive, uniform is more appealing than disarray, etc....etc. We have also figured out (while traveling the road of life) the different levels of each to determine which has more (or less) of those qualities.

All those turn in box appearance qualities that have been mentioned here weren't really taught to me in a book, it was learned by judging turn in boxes. And to be honest, by the time I got to my 2nd contest, I had seen what I consider to be a 9 on appearance in each of the categories. What made me give it a 9 is that it looked like it would taste very good and there was nothing else the cook could have done to improve the appearance given what I saw in the box. As I said, it took a couple of contests to figure this out but I believe this is why 1st time judges (and sometimes judges with <5 contests) are separated at contests. It's probably also why the lowest score is dropped too.

I guess during a judging class you could touch on certain appearance things but I believe that people have a certain inherant ability to judge things based on appearance. Actually judging boxes is where you fine tune that ability. I believe that's why "subjectively" and "objectively" are in the oath we take before judging. When you can't apply what you know, you have to apply what you like.

Bentley
09-25-2008, 09:47 AM
I am not able to get my point accross. I thank you all for your input and comments.

Jeff_in_KC
09-25-2008, 09:52 AM
Jeff I am trying to be sarcastic! I hear what you are saying, but are you using your experience from cooking or are you applying the rules you have been taught as a CBJ? Does KCBS teach what a judge is suppose to look for in the meat? I am asking, I have ask it several times and no one has given me an answer...I wonder why?

Ed also taught my class about two and a half years ago in St. Louis. Spice was in that class as well. I don't recall hearing specifically what to look for in the appearance area except for sloppiness (which takes in a lot of the problems I mentioned in my post) and things that will result in an appearance DQ. As always, it's going to come down to the opinion of the judge. But all of these things are issues that affect the appearance of the entry and are fair game when it comes to judging. And it comes down to the same as any other criteria in judging... the opinion of the judges. Nowhere does it say what you can and can't use as critieria for ANY of the three judging areas. But I think common sense tells us what types of things makes an entry LOOK good or bad. And every one of the things folks have been mentioning here in this thread are very reasonable and acceptable criterion. You have the right to NOT judge down for sloppy cutting if you don't want to. As someone who is very meticulous about my entries (I would expect 999 from a judge with standards like you use) , I'd like you to always judge MY entries, however, I don't want you anywhere near the entries of someone less meticulous! :wink:

paydabill
09-25-2008, 10:26 AM
I took the same class that Jeff and Spice did - I think RiverCity was there as well.

To me - I would have judge the box to be 8. However, this is what I took from the class.

First - look at the meat and the garnish, make sure the garnish is acceptable and there are at least six indentifiable pieces, is the sauce pooled? If you have a question about either, go ahead and judge it then ask the table captain for a ruling after all containers have been judged for appearance.

Second - Does the meat make me want to grab it and eat it.

Last overall appearance - This is where I think people get WAY TO PICKY! That is when people look at the garnish and think too bunched up in the corner, or I see a lot of white. I think this is wrong in my opinion. I asked ED at the class and he told me to error towards leanacy for the cook.

Just another thing I would like ot bring up on this subject and I will shut up - for those who actually judged, you know that the table captain goens through the box pretty quick. I mean the box is open for maybe a 1/2 minute and show to everyone on both sides of the table. You need to put out your best impression within that 30 seconds.
On the web though you get to stare at it as much as you want. It does make a difference. When I judge I look at the meat and the overall impression. I do nto have time to look at the sides of the box or if all the parcely is leaf side up.

Just my .02

Jeff_in_KC
09-25-2008, 11:44 AM
I don't have a problem with judges being picky about appearance. If I feel like a cook hasn't taken the time to go any trouble to make his hard work look the best he can, then I don't owe it to them to give them an 8 or 9. Any if I didn't take the time to do likewise as a cook, then I deserve crappy appearance scores.

CivilWarBBQ
09-25-2008, 11:57 AM
Quite honestly Bentley, I'm not sure that any score I give on a box online, is anywhere close to what I would actually score that box at a comp. I have the luxury of looking at the picture for as long as I like where at a comp I have only a fleeting glance.

You nailed it. I'm planning to write an application that allows submission of box photos for scoring on the Internet. One critical factor that will be required is to only show the image of the box for 3-5 seconds, since that is the amount of time a judge has to examine the box in the real world.

It's easy to pick out all the tiny imperfections when you have all day to review a photo, but when the table captain is sliding that box past you it's a very different impression. I believe this is why folks tend to score photos lower than when judging in the tent on average.

stlgreg
09-25-2008, 05:48 PM
I am going with a 7 too